Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car?

Honest John Back Room » Motoring discussion
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Sat 2 Dec 2017 15:17
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

Hello all

I'm just new on here, and could really do with some help and guidance, regarding being missold a car.

I want to reject the vehicle.


I have been banging my head against the wall for months with the dealer and his motor advisor....

Thanks for reading

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 15:20
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - RT

You had 30 days from purchase date to reject - which you seem to have missed - more detail of the circumstances, fault, misselling are needed.

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 15:23
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - RobJP

There are very specific grounds and timescales for why and when you can reject a car.

The devil is in the detail. And you'd need to provide all the details - when the purchase took place, age of the car, details of faults and when the faults occurred, etc. for anyone to even have a chance of giving you some meaningful advice.

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 15:42
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Dwight Van Driver

Read and inwardly digest

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enac...d

Also consider having a head to head with your local Trading Standards

dvd

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 15:49
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

Thanks for replying.

I bought a car, and found out its a parallel import from the EU.
Now this wouldn't usually be a problem, but the vehicle is limited edition, and so the UK marketed version gets a plaque of authenticity from the manufacturer. It may sound sad to most, but this is the only reason I wanted this specific car.
The car dealer told me the previous owner still had the service history manual, so I didn't get to see it before I handed cash over.... the dealer verbally confirmed that the timing belt had also been recently changed.
It was advertised as having a spare wheel, and it hasn't.
It only came with one key, which was never mentioned at any point to me.

So, in short, the car is an import from Holland, and I have proof from the manufacturer, that it wasn't made for the UK market, even though it was first registered in the UK. By dvla.
The timing belt needs changed, it hasn't been done recently.
No spare wheel, 1 key.

I've tried to rectify with garage I bought from, but they fobbed me off and threatened me with a solicitor.

I then wrote them a letter of rejection, which their motor trade legal advisor replied to, saying I had no right to reject.

I then wrote my final right to reject, after trying to mediate through aa dealer promise.

Even though I have proved the car is an import, to the garage and to their solicitors, they still imply that they believe the car is not an import.

I purchased car August 10th, and had my letter of rejection done the 17th...and it's all just gone on from there....


I'm going to take this to small claims... I believe I have done everything by the by, so it's my last resort...I'm just a little nervous....

I am new on this site, but I have all my evidence and letter etc, if anyone free for a look.



Thanks all

Edited by Bubbzywubbzy on 02/12/2017 at 15:51

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 15:58
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - RobJP

The CRA rejection rights only apply if a vehicle is faulty. That isn't the case here.

So basically, it's Small Claims Court.

Even then, I think you could probably only claim for the difference in value between a 'legit' GB car and the import.

Basically, you need to show that you have suffered a financial loss for a claim to be valid.

Let's say that a GB car was worth £10k, and a grey import only worth £8k. Your claim would be for £2k.

Even in that case, with the car being first registered in the UK, a court might agree with the garage that it is, to all intents and purposes, a GB car, and throw out your claim.

EDIT : As to you saying that the dealer 'told you' that the cambelt had been done, but never put anything in writing. That's unlikely to be worth anything at all in a courtroom. The dealer can turn round and say "No I never said that", and there is no evidence to back up your claim.

Edited by RobJP on 02/12/2017 at 16:00

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 16:13
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

Yeah, I get what you are saying...

Even still, I have the advert, stating full service history and timing belt change. It's also got spare wheel and space saver. This isn't in the car because it wasn't marketed for the UK.

Plus the car manual and service history book, which I did not get to see previous to sale, are all in Dutch. The timing belt was changed 5 year ago.... the dealer told me recent, so why even state it in his advert in BOLD to catch your eye.

They told me they would get in touch with vw and make sure it was a UK marketed,and they haven't.

I also believe they are using a dodgy advisor, from me googling his name.

They have also lied about the length of time they had the car, which I could prove, if given a chance in court.

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 16:20
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - TedCrilly

So he threatened you with a solicitor?

Get one of your own and call his bluff.

If what you say is true he has intentionally decived and is runing rings around you. You need serious help and you dont , at least on the face of it, have the knowledge or confidence to deal with this on your own.

Edited by TedCrilly on 02/12/2017 at 16:29

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 16:32
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - RobJP

As I said, if you want to take this to Small Claims, you have to quantify your real financial losses.

Without that, you will be laughed out of court.

So work out what those actual losses are, and then put in a claim for that.

As Ted says, getting a solicitor yourself might be a good idea. Though you can make a claim for SCC without one, using a simple online procedure.

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 16:35
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - RobJP

Oh, and first you say that the dealer 'verbally' told you the timing belt had been changed. Now, you're saying that it was in the advert.

If this was in a courtroom, it'd make me wonder if it's just the dealer being dishonest ...

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 16:46
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - argybargy

You might already have seen this, but the link below might be helpful.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wales/consumer/buying-or.../

Cit Ad will also help you with the small claims procedure, should you need assistance to go down that road. Just ring their Consumer Service on 03454040506.

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 17:04
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bromptonaut

You might already have seen this, but the link below might be helpful.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wales/consumer/buying-or.../

Cit Ad will also help you with the small claims procedure, should you need assistance to go down that road. Just ring their Consumer Service on 03454040506.

Strictly speaking the link above is to the Wales pages on CA's site. While the law is the same some of the links may be Wales specific. OP should get opportunity to select which partof UK he is on on first visit to site, but may not if going directly to a Welsh page.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 19:26
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - argybargy

You might already have seen this, but the link below might be helpful.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/wales/consumer/buying-or.../

Cit Ad will also help you with the small claims procedure, should you need assistance to go down that road. Just ring their Consumer Service on 03454040506.

Strictly speaking the link above is to the Wales pages on CA's site. While the law is the same some of the links may be Wales specific. OP should get opportunity to select which partof UK he is on on first visit to site, but may not if going directly to a Welsh page.

True indeed, but a smidgeon of initiative on the part of the OP will take him, or her to the right page.

The consumer helpline number itself is not location-specific.

Edited by argybargy on 03/12/2017 at 19:29

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 17:02
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

I think you misunderstood.

I saw the advert online...it stated timing belt change and full service history.

Then when I spoke to dealer, he verbally told me the it had been done recently. Which I have witness too.

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 18:11
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - SLO76
If the dealer misled you by promising something that later transpired to be false, such as the timing belt then you have a case against them certainly for the cost of this or for the value difference if the full service history wasn’t quite what was promised but as for rejecting it I’m not sure you’d win.

It’s not faulty and the onus was on you to check the goods were what you wanted at the time of viewing and then buying. If however they told you it wasn’t an import and you can prove it then fair enough again there’s a case but again I’d bet you’d only get something towards the value difference which on an older car like this I’ll bet is marginal.

I’d offer the dealer a way out by asking for the cost of having a timing belt and water pump change and I’d probably want it done by someone other than them. But then none of us are legal experts, best bet would be to speak to your own lawyer.

Out of curiosity what car are we talking about, what age is it, mileage and purchase price? These are all vital details. If we’re discussing a ten year old Golf GTi with 100,000 miles up that cost you £4K then you’ll get nowhere but if it’s something much younger and more valuable your case will carry extra weight. It’s all about realistic expectations.

Edited by SLO76 on 02/12/2017 at 18:16

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 19:15
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

It's an edition 30, 80K on clock....paid 8500....

The price was on the basis that the timing belt had been done, and the car was a UK marketed vehicle.

I've paid well over odds for an import, that I didn't want in the first place...devious garage, with holding information, and falsely telling me things.

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 19:35
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - RT

Oh boy, they've seen you coming!

An 11-year old Golf Edition 30 is under £4,000 dealer price according to pricing guides - a regular GTi would be about £3,500

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 12:19
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - badbusdriver

Oh boy, they've seen you coming!

An 11-year old Golf Edition 30 is under £4,000 dealer price according to pricing guides - a regular GTi would be about £3,500

The cheapest edition 30 on autotrader with >80k miles is £8k, the dearest (apart from a remapped one) is £11k.

But, as has been pointed out, the onus is on you to make sure the car is what you thought it was and expected. All the necessary info would have been available to you through the relevant forums or owners clubs (such as chassis numbers for genuine UK cars).

As far as the dealer is concerned, it is a GTI edition 30 1st registered in the UK, and therefore a UK car, not an import. Unless you can prove that the dealer knew the car was not an 'official' UK car, you have absolutely no hope whatsoever of winning any sort of claim that you were missold the car. Same with your claims that the log book and service manual were 'purposely hidden from you'. How did you know that they were purposely hidden from you, and if indeed that is how you felt, shouldn't that have raised alarm bells to investigate the car further before parting with your money?.

I aint no lawyer, but my take on this, going by what you have told us, is that you may have some joy getting the timing belt dealt with but that is it.

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Sat 2 Dec 2017 20:16
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - SLO76

It's an edition 30, 80K on clock....paid 8500....

The price was on the basis that the timing belt had been done, and the car was a UK marketed vehicle.

I've paid well over odds for an import, that I didn't want in the first place...devious garage, with holding information, and falsely telling me things.

Strong money, but these do fetch a fair premium over a normal GTI. You’ve certainly overpaid and I agree that the garage are at fault for not offering to come good on the timing belt but they're not obliged to tell you that the almost ten year old used car you’re looking at was originally an import, they probably didn’t even know themselves. One thing you need to remember is that most sales staff haven’t a clue about cars. Some of the best I’ve known regarding sales figures couldn’t tell one end of a motor from the other so don’t expect too much from them, do your own homework. Take someone who knows what they’re doing with you if you’re unsure, even if this means paying them.
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Sat 2 Dec 2017 23:52
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Avant

If a car is ten years old, does it make all that much difference that it's an import? I'd have thought a few hundred pounds at the most.

It's not LHD is it? That might make more of a difference, but then you wouldn't have paid so much for it in the first place, I hope.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 10:37
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - pd

It is a tricky legal point but at least until March 29 2019 a car from the Netherlands isn't technically an "import".

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 11:22
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - gordonbennet

OP, you've learned a valuable set of lessons here, you are not alone we've all been there at some point.

I hope you can get some satisfaction from the dealer re the work the car needs doing, eg timing belt, but if we look at the worse case and they won't budge, then forget them and go about making the car, you obviously wanted, as reliable and time proof as you can, and enjoy it for what it is.

Service it regularly, get someone who knows what they are doing to change the gearbox oil now and again and someone to service the brakes correctly (almost never done these days), and most importantly keep the salt at bay by hosing the underside regularly and setting about proper rustproofing during the warm weather next year.

Keeping top range sporting vehicles in good nick usually sees them holding high value as time goes by and the majority of neglected thrashed examples gradually get either barry'd or pranged, keep it well and you could yet end up with a decent long term bet which may well hold its value as it becomes rare.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 11:51
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

I know it's such a mess....

Top and bottom, I didn't want an import, and the garage have purposely hid the log book and service manual from me, and fobbed me off with lies.

Anyhow I have been reading through some posts on here and have found this one....

I went to look at a 2008 57-plate Golf GTi Edition 30 yesterday. It looked like a good car, and as it was end of the month I got a good deal, as I paid cash and am to collect the vehicle on Saturday. Today, I am struggling to get insurance as I've been told it is an import. As it is a RHD model, why is this an issue to insurers and have i actually paid over the odds? If it was written off will the PAV be significantly less than a UK model? Should I cancel the payment and advise the dealer that I need to withdraw or am I panicking a bit?

Answered by honest john....

The Edition 30 was a UK model, so it could be that the insurer's database is wrong. But if it is an independent import and you were not told, that alone is grounds to cancel the contract. The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPRs) contains a general prohibition against unfair commercial practices and, in particular, prohibitions against misleading actions, misleading omissions and aggressive commercial practices.

The Regulations are enforceable through the civil and criminal courts.www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/buying-selling/...l , www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023045.htmand www.consumerdirect.gov.uk

This creates an offence of misleading omissions which would not previously have been an offence if the consumer had not asked the right questions. So if a salesman knows a car has, for example, been badly damaged and repaired and does not tell the customer, he could later be held liable if the customer subsequently discovered that the car had been damaged and repaired. As far as I know this has yet to be tested in court and there are no case precedents. As soon as there are, and I am made aware, I will include them

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 12:11
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - RobJP

But as HJ says, that depends on salesman KNOWING details and deliberately concealing them.

He also does point out that this has not yet been tested in the courts, and there are no case precedents.

Also, that case was one where the car hadn't even been completed on.

Also, you did not have any difficulty getting insurance. So that would indicate that the insurer didn't have any data that it was an import.

You might win in a court. Or you might lose, and have the defence costs to pay as well.

Only way you're going to find out is by rolling the dice.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 12:21
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

Thanks for the reply.....I'm so on the fence....

I take him to court, I have adverts, with the car stating UK, eg spec spare wheel space saver, etc.... but obviously this is a Dutch marketed which doesn't even get them.

Could the trader be done for negligence regarding advert?

Also they don't believe me that it's an import!!!

The trader and motor advisor have stated in very last letter to me, "we remain in the position that the vehicle is a UK vehicle and not an import in any event"

But I have email from vw UK stating "the car was manufactured for the Dutch market and would have been imported into the UK from there"

So in my eyes the trader is saying the manufacturer is wrong....?

So in any event really the trader is the wrong one.....? Surely anyone can see that?

Edited by Bubbzywubbzy on 03/12/2017 at 12:23

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 12:38
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - jc2

If it was marketed for sale in the Netherlands,it would be LHD-it could have been ordered by a UK citizen in the Netherlands for use in the UK.That's called a personal import.

Edited by jc2 on 03/12/2017 at 12:41

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 12:38
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

Also when I asked to see service history, the salesman said yes, went inside for ten minutes, come back out and said he couldn't find it....

I rang the next day, and he said the previous owner still had it.

I don't believe him....he told me he had seen book, with the timing belt change,that had been done recently.

The manuals are DUTCH not a word of English :( if I'd been given them to view I would of known the car was an import.....

When I bought the car, the manuals were in the glove box, so didn't see them at point of sale....just hpi check and v5, etc...

I'm so gutted, I have worked hard and saved up for my perfect car.

I went to a reputable company, so I thought, to be continually lied to by some two bit bloke in a suit....

They could of easily found out the car was an import by the pdi stamp, on front page of the book.... they just seen me coming, being a lass aswell....

I've got a witness to all the lies though. Even if they didn't know car was an import, they have still misrepresented me without knowing, which shouldn't be my mistake... I am afterall the one purchasing...

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 12:55
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - RobJP

I don't see any way in which the trader could be 'done' regarding negligence. To start off with, you'd have to define the criminal offence committed. Then you'd have to get it to the courts, all the expenses involved in that, and if it went against you your losses could be in the tens of thousands.

The garage could just as easily turn round and say "We deal in cars, we're not experts in exact spec onl imited edition models. We took data from DVLA which states that the car was registered when new in the UK. We've not got the time to contact VW and every other manufacturer to confirm exact origin. If the buyer is such an expert then were they 'negligent' in not checking the car out in detail ?"

The kicker there is what is 'reasonable'. It would be 'reasonable' to expect a garage to confirm that a car was legally theirs to sell, to carry out HPI checks, etc. It would not be 'reasonable' to expect a garage to contact every single manufacturer to ascertain if a car was of 'proper' GB spec, if the DVLA documentation indicated it was.

You tried taking it to 2 bodies (including the AA, from reading an earlier post) for rejection, and they both refused your case.

You're quoting legislation that has never been tested in court. Which could cost you a hell of a lot of money to test.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 13:18
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

The advert states spec, the car doesn't have....

I was under assumption that I could not find out off vwuk, any details regarding vehicle, unless you were new registered keeper on v5....this is why I asked the salesman to contact vw for me, to make sure the vehicle was entitled to a plaque....he said he would speak to his vw colleague.

He told me he had spoke to vw, and they said all was good and a plaque was waiting for the car.

So I was obviously buzzing, that the car I was interested in was a genuine UK marketed vehicle.

Then I rang vwuk for my plaque. And they told me they weren't issued to European market.

The garage I bought it from and the salesman in question have actually got some poor reviews off other people on the internet..... pushy sales techniques and false promises, etc.... could these be used in favour of me?

Other people have had issues with said salesman....

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 13:34
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - RobJP

No, poor reviews 'off the internet' cannot be used in a court or any suchlike. That is ridiculous.

Once again, you've got this entire 'the salesman said' this, or 'told you' that, or he'd speak to X, and he'd had a reply back.

Unless you have that conversation recorded or in writing, you've got no proof that it ever happened at all. Any friend who was there with you is automatically not neutral, so their corroboration will be called into question.

I think this is very much a case of buying in haste, and not doing your homework before handing over your money.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 14:00
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Bubbzywubbzy

Thank you all for your replies, I appreciate the views of other people...

I have also found this similar post, on this website....

www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/71566/dealer-has...s-

I'm so confused

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 14:21
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - FiestaOwner

Check your log book (V5C). It should confirm if the vehicle was imported from elsewhere.

My V5C states (front page, section 3): "DECLARED NEW AT FIRST REGISTRATION". What does yours say?

Could the car have been supplied through Motorpoint originally? Think they used to supply cars which were intended for other markets.

Afraid some of the other things you should have checked yourself when 1st viewing (never trust car salesmen):

  • 1) No spare wheel. You should have lifted the boot floor carpet to check for crash damage and corrosion including the spare wheel well. You should have been looking for a jack and wheel brace too. You should have also been checking the condition of the spare tyre as well as the main tyres/ wheels.

  • Full Service history. That phrase means nothing without checking the service receipts. Was it all main dealer/ independent or fast fit centre? The usual reason that the service history is missing is that there isn't any (it should always be in the car or available in the dealers office).

  • No spare key. Spare key should be on the same ring as the main one. If it's not there you should ask to try the spare too (it should be on hand ,or it's missing).

You should be checking everything you can yourself, including the MOT history online (before travelling to view). The MOT history site is very useful for checking mileage discrepancies.

In future ensure you're satisfied that everything is correct, before signing anything or paying a deposit. Unfortunately I think you fell in love with the car. Buy with your head, not with your heart.

Once you've negotiated a deal, it can be a good idea to say you need to get approval from your wife (or husband, partner etc) 1st (before committing to buy) and they're not contactable till late evening or the next day. This gives you a chance to think everything over.

Entirely up to you, if you consider legal action. Just because you feel the dealer is in the wrong, doesn't mean it will go your way in court.

Please don't think I'm having ago at you, I'm not. I do hope this thread will stop others making the errors you made. Hope despite everything that you enjoy your car.

Edited by FiestaOwner on 03/12/2017 at 14:22

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 15:07
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - SLO76
We can only base our answers on our own experience, we can’t simply tell you what you’d like to hear. To me the dealer has offered a car for sale which you viewed and accepted. It’s almost ten years old so can’t be expected to be as new and you had the opportunity to view at your leasure and either accept or walk away. You chose to buy despite not being able to view the V5 or service record and without a satisfactory answer as to why the limited edition identification plaque was missing. This was a mistake. You should never buy without proof of regular maintenance especially when we’re talking about a complex high performance motor.

The dealer promised it had a recent timing belt change and if this is in the advert and you have a copy of this then then politely inform the dealer by email that you expect them to pay for this to be done as promised. If they refuse then you should approach trading standards for advice. A visit from a couple of TSO’s will usually be enough to get a positive response without having to go down the road of involving costly legal action.

As for getting a refund based on whether it’s an import or not I don’t think you’d have a leg to stand on. Unless you have it in writing that they promised it’s a UK car then you’ve no proof. At this age it makes little difference to the value and there’s always the high probability that VW’s records are simply wrong. If it’s a RHD car then it definitely wasn’t supplied new to Norway which is a LHD market. I suspect it’s a UK car, maybe it was exported there and came back I don’t know but it’s incredibly expensive to buy cars in Norway thus it makes no sense to buy there and import back here. Maybe it has the wrong owner manual.

Who carried out the first few services in the book? If it’s a UK VW dealer then it wasn’t likely to have been an import.

My advice would be to speak to trading standards for their opinion, call your lawyer for a free phone consultation but be wary that many will tell you that you have a case simply to drum up business and you could land even further out of pocket. Then armed with these informed opinions approach the dealer by letter or email (so that you have proof) and politely engage with them. If it were myself I’d offer to do the timing belt and water pump plus possibly offer a small refund. But you’ve added an extra name to the V5 and bought the car after having time to view and it’s not faulty at all so it’s unlikely you’d get a refund. An extra owner that had it for a very short term will seriously damage the cars sellability.
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Sun 3 Dec 2017 15:35
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Andrew-T
If it’s a RHD car then it definitely wasn’t supplied new to Norway which is a LHD market. I suspect it’s a UK car, maybe it was exported there and came back I don’t know but it’s incredibly expensive to buy cars in Norway thus it makes no sense to buy there and import back here.

Norway? Did someone mention Norway? :-)

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 15:53
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - SLO76
“Norway? Did someone mention Norway? :-)”

Glasses on... meant Holland of course. 8-)
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Sun 3 Dec 2017 18:14
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - Avant

If only to satisfy my curiosity, Bubsywhatsit, could you answer my question about what you think the difference in value is between a 10-year-old UK car and the same age and model imported from Holland.

The reason I ask is that if, as I suspect, it isn't more than a few hundred pounds, if that, it just won't be worth your while going to court.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 19:54
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - FP

He wants his plaque, Avant. He had his heart set on it when he did the deal.

Foreign import - no plaque.

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Sun 3 Dec 2017 20:16
Hello ... can anyone help me ... missold car? - gordonbennet

Such a thing as a plaque might make quite a difference when the vehicle is 40 years old, if the model has developed a cult following like hot older Fords have of late.

VW's had a quite a scene going with the hipsters for a long time, maybe explains why those same? ageing hipsters spend absolute fortunes on VW campers and Transporter based MPV's of all ages, but is the youngsters scene still with the VW cars or has that moved on to other makes, it's not my scene and i genuinely do not know.

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