VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Engine rebuild break-in oil query - brianthnach

Hi guys,

First a bit of background. I recently had the conrod through the block issue common to the BXE VAG engine. (big end top shells were pitted) The head was undamaged and I sourced a replacement block which I dismantled (not knowing history of block) and cleaned and plan on a light hone (flexhone) & re-ring pistons with Goetze rings as the cylinders are well within spec as regards wear/taper/out of round. I've measured all cylinders/journals with the proper tools and all are well within specs per VAG.

I also plan on installing a new kolbenschmidt camshaft (incl. lifters) as lobes are worn on my own head. (previous owner may have used incorrect oil) I will be using assembly lube along the way also.

Now to my query that some of you may have experience with. As I'm replacing rings etc. I will have to run-in the engine for the first couple of hundred miles or and complete a number of oil changes. However I don't know what is best practise here as regards oil type and intervals.

My research indicates that you should never use synthetic oil during the break-in period of rings (whether this be 50 miles or 1000 miles) as it won't allow the rings to seat and wear in correctly, and cause oil burning, loss of compression etc. etc. I also read that the cars coming new from the factories don't have synthetic in them for this very reason but switch to synthetic from first service onwards but can't find any hard detail on what type oil this actually is.

However I am installing a new camshaft and I note that synthetic oil VAG 505.01/507.00 is specified so as not to inflict wear on the camshaft and that any lesser mineral oil would not be good for the camshaft.

So can any of you VAG gurus fill me in on the correct procedure here as regards type of oil and replenish intervals after having done re-ring, hone, bearings and camshaft. I note from some american forums that they recommend Joe Gibbs Break-in oil but this is only available stateside. I'd really appreciate if someone who has experience in rebuilding these engines could let me know best practice on this matter. Or am I way overthinking this?

Would really appreciate any advice

Jim

Edited by brianthnach on 13/05/2016 at 21:55

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Engine rebuild break-in oil query - focussed

Personally I would not use a flexhone. They don't take out any out-of-round or taper or bore top ridge however small. I would get the block to a decent engine machine shop and get them to give the bores a light hone and that will also create the correct cross hatch pattern which will promote proper running in.Cleaning the bores after honing is very important. Solvent and hot water is reccommended.

Ask VW about the oil spec, it should be in a TSB somewhere.

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Engine rebuild break-in oil query - 659FBE

Bad luck with the BXE - depressingly common.

Excluding gross neglect or damage, VAG diesels don't suffer from bore wear. It's difficult to generalise on an unseen engine, but I would take a very non-invasive approach and simply de-glaze the bores with emery to give a helical cross hatch. Also relieve the top ridge with a scraper if you cannot get a stepped top compression ring set.

You're "over a barrel" with oil. You can't run in the engine on mineral oil as none will meet the film strength spec. I would try to find some 505.01 for running in which should be SAE 5W - 40, and after run in, change to 507.00 which is 5W - 30. Both specifications are valid for this engine if there is no DPF, but 505.01 is now hard to find. If there is a DPF, you must use 507.00.

On assembly, apply "Molykote" paste sparingly to the valve actuating cams and followers, keeping it really well away from the injector cams, whose followers have to roll - not slide.

Be meticulous in the assembly of this engine, renew fasteners as specified and measure the piston protrusion accurately so that you can select the correct head gasket. Check the injector loom for condition and connector preload before full assembly. You need quite a few special tools to do this job properly.

659.

Don't apply any American "snakeoil" to this precision engine. The production engines operate on VAG spec. 507.00 from assembly.

Edited by 659FBE on 14/05/2016 at 00:28

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Engine rebuild break-in oil query - Cyd

www.amazon.co.uk/Four-stroke-Performance-Tuning-Pr...F

Most cams I've ever fitted have come with very specific running in proceedures which it is important to follow shortly after starting for the first time.

Follow Mr Bell's advice for running in the rings and you'll have not trouble.

I've always poured plenty of oil over the cams shortly before first start and also crank the engine till oil galleries are full before allowing it to fire.

I would use the correct grade of oil as specified by the engine manufacturer. I usually change at 500, 1000 and 5000 miles and keep short cold runs to a minimum. Don't drive it too gingerly and gradually extend the revs and power usage over the first 1000. Warm up and cool down sympathetically.

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Engine rebuild break-in oil query - brianthnach

Hey guys,

Many thanks indeed for the detailed replies. I was away for the weekend but really appreciate the advice.

Focussed, I did a good bit of research in to the flexhone and alot of people issues with it appear to come from using it with out of spec cylinders, although I'm open to correction on that also. I measured each cylinder long/lat at top/middle/bottom with a dial bore gauge and the greatest wear from factory was +0.025mm which is well within service man. limits. I removed the carbon 'ring' on top of each bore and there is no visible ridge (or to the feel) and crosshatch is still visible on all bores. I would post a picture but its very hard to get a good picture of it for some reason.

However, if emery cloth is a good way to go with it, I would of course go with the more practiced method such as 659FBE suggests. (I know he has a lot of experience with VAG cars) Any ideas of a grit# for emery cloth and is it done by hand or some tool and dry/wet oil/water? I'd be very happy to go this route if it has merit. Only problem I see is that the hone might get the hatch easier to the 45 degree cross pattern.

Sorry I know that is alot of questions, but it really is hard to find the method most used to successfully get these walls ready for new rings. I would go the machine shop route but the closest one to me is 2 hours away and also a quote from them was just way of the scale (just to hone) so I would prefer to get this over the line on my own steam (if I can without being silly about it).

Thanks very much for that info on the oil 659FBE. I did see today that halfords have castrol 505.01 5W-40 so I'll take your advice on this and use this as the run-in oil. No DPF thankfully and point taken re snakeoils.

I haven't really gotten into the head yet as was focused on the bottom end but it was working perfectly on the previous engine and I will give it a good go through before reusing. I have been building up a lot of VAG tools over the past few years as I have two of these cars. I did purchase the rear seal installation tool during the week from Laser and that seriously hurt the wallet but too crucial a part I thought to skip and will use in future no doubt. I am replacing all gaskets/seals/stretch bolts with Elring/Reinz/OEM as I really don't want to open this back up for a while :)

Either way I'll have to find a half-way point between running the camshaft and rings in on first cranking. (Haven't received camshaft yet to see the run-in procedure) But I did order that book your suggested Cyd, so will take a read through before I begin assembly.

The help is really, really appreciated. I'll keep you posted with how matters progress but I'm sure I'll be back with more questions before then ;)

Edited by brianthnach on 16/05/2016 at 01:51

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Crankshaft run-out - brianthnach

Hey guys,

I'm going to start into my rebuild soon so checked a few odd bits this evening before I start assembly.

So I have the choices of two crankshafts. One is an 8 counterweight and one is a 4 counterweight. I was planning on using the 8 counterweight.

However, I took both cranks and rested them in the block on bearings #1 and #5 with all other bearings removed and postioned the dial gauge over no. 3 journal.

The run-out on the 4 c.weight crank was 0.02mm/0.0008" while the run-out on the 8 c.weight crank was 0.09mm/0.0035". (Measuring run-out as min to max reading on dial gauge so out of centre is probably half these values)

I also measured with micrometers all journals and they are all within spec with the 4 c.weight crank journals appearing more "polished" but having slightly more wear (0.01mm) than the 8 c.weight.

The only reason I went investigating was that the 8 weight crank appeared tighter with bearing caps installed. I have yet to install new bearings. Am I better leaving the 8 c.weight crank out of my build?

Jim

Edited by brianthnach on 19/05/2016 at 05:45

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Crankshaft run-out - galileo

I wouldn't use a crank with .0035" runout if I had the option of one with only .0008" runout.

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Crankshaft run-out - brianthnach

Thanks galileo,

Yep thats what I was thinking as well. I think I'll shelve my 8 c.weight idea and stick with the 4. Beats having to deal with any potential bottom end issues afterwards.

Jim

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - brianthnach

Hi guys,

Back again with another query. I cleaned up all the pistons in the new block and found this on piston #4;

i.imgur.com/XkiFPfK.jpg

The pitting is pretty deep and as you can see one of the pits on the right hand side has caused some of the crown to deform outwards on the side of the piston.

Now, whether I'm right or wrong, I am considering taking the no. 4 piston from the other damaged block (piston 4 is perfect in it) and putting it in place of this piston. The only difference is that this (pitted) piston is marked 79.48mm while the good piston is marked 79.45mm, even though they are both BXE blocks.

I'm assuming I should just swap pistons alone and not con-rods, which leads me to my next question.. Which wrist/gudgeon pin should I use? Both rods/pins are in perfect condition with little to no play in the small end bushings/pins.

I would weight the good piston to get it close/shave to the weight of the pitted piston if need be, or I could replace both #3 and #4 to keep them balanced. Is this workable or is the 0.001" difference in piston diameter a problem?

Thanks again for all the help. The wealth of experience here is like gold-dust

Jim

Edited by brianthnach on 23/05/2016 at 03:53

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - Wackyracer

I've seen damage like that before when the tips of glowplugs have disintergrated in the cylinder. was there matching marks on the head too?

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - brianthnach

I only obtained this as a replacement block so I never saw the head although I would think it would have been similarly damaged. I think you could be right. There is much lighter pitting on piston 3 but not on this scale so I think the glow plug theory is very likely indeed.

Just don't know if I am doing more harm than good replacing this piston with another BXE piston that is in good condition?

Jim

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - mark

Are the pistons bore specific?

As far as I know on the other PD engines they are not.

I presume you have 4 spares available to you from the spare block, what are the other 3 like for condition and size?

I would not use the piston you had in the picture but pick the best condition/nearest size one you have spare assuming you have an accurate bore measurement for cylinder 4 and match to that.

Will you be using new piston rings?

Regards

Mark

Edited by mark on 23/05/2016 at 18:26

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - Wackyracer

If it was me, I'd use the better (smaller diameter) piston with it's pin. 0.002" over the diameter of the piston is nothing.

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - brianthnach

Hi,

Thanks for the replies.

Mark, as regards bore specific, pistons 1+2 are matches and 3+4 are matches as to the position of the valve recesses in the crown. I have 3 spares as the cylinder in which the con-rod let go (#1) made bits of the piston also.

If you mean bore specific as in diameter, no all the bores are the same diameter. The only logical reason I could find as to why the (marginally) different pistons are used is for tool wear in manufacturing so that they select a narrower piston for the thinner bore resulting from tool wear due to repeated boring/honing. I’m not certain about this but when the difference is only 0.03mm, it could be a reasonable explanation. Indeed, I will be using new rings.

Funnily enough the VW service manual makes no reference to piston-cylinder clearance at all, only to ring end-gap and ring-land clearance. I would think the narrower piston wouldn’t have any adverse effects, and hopefully it doesn’t result in any unbalancing that results in vibration etc. They also have different numbers stamped on the con-rods (in the same engine) which combined with holes drilled in the crank counter weights leads me to believe that they use different con-rods within the same engine for balancing. I just never expected different pistons also. Not all same code engines are created equally it seems. I thought 0.002” is nothing over the diameter of a piston either but then I wonder why VW do it. I’m dangerously close to over thinking this at this stage

Thanks for the help

Jim

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - brianthnach

Hi,

Well took out the scales and did weighed up. Surprisingly enough the 79.45mm piston is 20 grams heavier than the 79.48 piston. The former has more material inside the base. Would I be foolish to install one piston 20g heavier than the other three?

Jim

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - galileo

Hi,

Well took out the scales and did weighed up. Surprisingly enough the 79.45mm piston is 20 grams heavier than the 79.48 piston. The former has more material inside the base. Would I be foolish to install one piston 20g heavier than the other three?

Jim

I would think almost an ounce difference would increase vibration, especially at higher rpm.

Could you not put a burr in a drill and take 20 grams off the inside of the base, obviously with care and checking weight as you go?

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - Cyd

the g-forces on a piston at each end of it's stroke can easily reach 2000g. That 20g suddenly becomes 40Kg.

Why not entrust work to somewhere used to building race and/or rally engines and have the pistons balanced? maybe even lightened a tad?

VW Passat 3c2 1.9tdi BXE (PD) - Replace this piston? - brianthnach

I think 20 grams of aluminium is a bit too far. I mean the one conrod bolt is 20 grams and it would be 3x that volume for aluminium.

I'm thinking I'm just going to buy a used 79.480 piston with good skirts which will match the other pistons. I understand what you are saying about balancing Cyd but there are no good shops for that kind of work around where I live and I got a crazy quote when I enquired this morning and thats 3 hours away.

I checked the original crankshaft for run-out and its good and I will be using the original con-rods in their original bores. I'll give them all a weigh up before installation.

I'm think this should be sufficient.

Jim