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No-one has admitted responsibilty, and fortunately no-one was injured, and police were not involved, so I guess we were leaving it to insurance companies to decide. Unfortunately when she made initial call, the guy asked her how often she collected post and she said it was done regularl, so cant say it was a one-off.
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It doesn't apply to all insurers, but the sort of busines cover she needs is very cheap. I've known it to have no effect on the price at all.
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dam!
It is difficult to get anything out of this claim if the other party hasn't admitted liability.
You could go back to your insurers "that you made a genuine mistake and it was not an attempt to defraud or mis-lead them." because she started her new job AFTER she got her insurance. and that updating informatoin on insurance certificate etc.. is not a habit that a young hard working individual is aware of!
write it in a letter to someone senior, they might see sense?
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The insurers are correct in their basic approach, strictly speaking she was using her car for business use, but the Financial Ombudsman Service deals with disputes.
There may well be precedent with other similar situations where picking something up for your employee whilst commuting has been deemed not business use.
Your first port of call is an official complaint to the insurance company and I would follow dsavvy_2103. If it is the case, highlight the fact your daughter does not use her vehicle as part of her general day to day duties for site visits, visiting clients, commercial travelling etc etc. she did not set out to defraud.
If the pick up is on her commute route this would also be worth highlighting.
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Also you could say it was just on this ocassion she was driving to work and it is not a regular occurence?
If she was doing it routinely then telling fibs is simply going to give insurer a more solid reason to decline the claim.
I'm surprised OP has never heard of business use cover as differentiation between Social Domestic and Pleasure (SDP), SDP plus commuting and business use is pretty clearly defined on proposal forms etc. I may be fortunate though in that my 'business' was that of Civil Servant and there were manuals setting out rules about using one's own car and driving on duty including business cover on cert which had to bee seen by manager and copy retianed.
I'd suggest going back to insurer and seeking exercise of discretion etc, particulalry if no mileage or other reward for this use was in place. But if her employer expected/accepted her collecting DX on way in then it's part of her work and business use
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I'd be having a word with her employer. She is a relatively naive 20 year old and her employer, especially being solicitors, should have known better. As her employer, they should have ensured that the correct insurance was in place and that their employee's car was in a roadworthy condition (I'm not saying it wasn't) if they required her to use it on company business. My employer will not permit us to use cars over 10 years old and we have to complete a motor declaration to confirm it's kept serviced and insured for business use.
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If she was picking up the post on behalf of her employer, then the employer is liable under law. Employers liability act 1969. They have compulsory insurance for such eventualities, and she should make a claim against her employer, which she will win. If they sack her, she can also easily win for unfair dismissal. Solicitors should know all this.
Edited by brum on 04/09/2014 at 23:39
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that is interesting, maybe using this as a last resort? is it worth losing your job over it? or alieanating yourself in the business? Probably best to sit with her boss to see if they can sort something out first, if he is willing to help.
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Yeah I would say so, they should have her covered if she is using her car for work purposes and if this is not the first time, the solicitors office should really look into this. Unfair that your daughter has to use her car to pick up mail, does she get paid petrol money? to do this.
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Thank you all for your comments, no she does not get paid for doing these errrands, and what makes me angry is that her boss is always phoning her, even after work hours, asking her to drive back into the office as she thinks something has been left on, things like that...she has never been paid petrol expenses for any of the errands. As it has been suggested, ignorance is no defence, but she genuinely had no idea, nor had I, that she should have been covered under a different insurance. Obviously she is in an awkward position at the moment as she doesn't want to make her working life uncomfortable but I strongly feel that her boss knew she should have had business insurance but just didn't bother telling her,, probably thinking that nothing would ever happen. I will wait to see what the ombudsman say and go from there.
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fingers crossed it all works out, or at least an expensive lesson learned, and that no one has been hurt. All you have to do now is just puruse all the options listed above.
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I'd be having a word with her employer. She is a relatively naive 20 year old and her employer, especially being solicitors, should have known better. As her employer, they should have ensured that the correct insurance was in place and that their employee's car was in a roadworthy condition (I'm not saying it wasn't) if they required her to use it on company business. My employer will not permit us to use cars over 10 years old and we have to complete a motor declaration to confirm it's kept serviced and insured for business use.
Yes, I agree with all of this post.
It's exactly the same where I work. No cars over 10 years old and completion of a motor declaration form to confirm servicing/roadworthyness and appropriate business use insurance.
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I have only ever worked for one company where I needed to use my private car for work. It was clearly stated in the contract that your Private Car MUST be insurred for BUSINESS USE, in my 10 years there documentation was never checked. But each month on the claim form you filled in you had to confirm the car was insurred for business use.
One chap in the office decided to save himself about £50 by not bothering. He was an habitual road tax evader as well so no surprise there. Once boasted he had managed 6 months with no disc and got off because he claimed he had been abroad for 6 months and had only just returned. He had an accident at work one day, only minor but his fault. His insurer refused to pay out and the 3rd party came after the company since the driver was on their business.
His £50 a year saving soon turned into a £20000 a year loss when they sacked him for breach of contract etc.
Edited by thunderbird on 05/09/2014 at 14:16
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Stopping off at the post office on the way to work is hardly "business use", especially if the driver is not paid for it and it is outside normal work hours. Just because there is work mail in the car, does not make it any different to carrying work around in the car to/from home.
Unless she said she was picking up post as part of her required work routine, under instruction from her employer, I think Diamond are indulging in sharp practice
In my opinion, the OPs daughter should learn important life lessons here
Always think carefully before even picking up a phone and talking to an insurance company, seek advice from a friend or collegue if you're not sure.
never ever offer information unless asked for specifically - my experience is that insurance companies will not ask "why" you were at the scene of an accident.
Diamond being a third tier insurance company, along with many others of its kind, is cheap for one reason - they don't pay up if they can possibly avoid it. Cheap but not cheerful.
Hopefully the ombudsman will do his job properly and put Diamond in their place.
Edited by brum on 05/09/2014 at 14:42
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"Stopping off at the post office on the way to work is hardly "business use"". So how would you define "business use"?
Commuting to and from office A Monday, Tuesday & Wednesday and office B Thursday & Friday is "business use". I personally don't see what difference it makes, but from a risk point of view I guess it must, otherwise insurers wouldn't ask the question.
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Another bit of small print some may not know about....commuting on many if not most policies is to one place of work only, be careful if you have two or more sites, you need, yes you guessed it, business use.
Both our Saga and Adelaide policies are clearly noted as commuting to one place of work.
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All policies I have held have clearly defined SD&P and To and From Work as to and from your "main place of work" or "permanant place of work". When I worked for the local college we had several sites and my official base was the site furthest from home. All the other sites were closer, one was only 1/2 a mile away and clearly there was less risk if I was working at any of those but I still had to buy business insurance. Only cost a few £'s so no arguement.
Round our way the police had a purge a few weeks ago, the Pizza delivery drivers were the main target. There were 2 stopped on our street on consecutive nights. They both had a long walk back to the shop.
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I'd guess pizza delivering is a little bit more than business use, perhaps commercial travelling? Not an occupation most insurers would welcome taking into account the need to make the delivery before the thing goes cold.
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" things like that...she has never been paid petrol expenses for any of the errands. "
She is entitled to 45p per mile tax free mileage allowance that would cover the £0-30 extra that class 1 business cover costs. As they sound tight, and without goodwill, consider a claim on their public liability insurance.
If you don't get the 45p,she chould also make a long list of all these errands/journies and put them in a HMC&R tax return to reclaim the taxable portion of the cost.
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Public Liability Insurance won't cover a road traffic accident
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All policies I have held have clearly defined SD&P and To and From Work as to and from your "main place of work" or "permanant place of work". When I worked for the local college we had several sites and my official base was the site furthest from home. All the other sites were closer, one was only 1/2 a mile away and clearly there was less risk if I was working at any of those but I still had to buy business insurance. Only cost a few £'s so no arguement.
Exactly the same as my experience; a college with 5 sites, and when a new Payroll bod started (who knew about 'grey fleet' issues) there was a string on new college policies regarding checking insurance for bus. use etc. No policy, no mileage claim. That sharp sorted them out.
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All policies I have held have clearly defined SD&P and To and From Work as to and from your "main place of work" or "permanant place of work". When I worked for the local college we had several sites and my official base was the site furthest from home. All the other sites were closer, one was only 1/2 a mile away and clearly there was less risk if I was working at any of those but I still had to buy business insurance. Only cost a few £'s so no arguement.
Swmbo (youngrovergirl) is a hospital doc (as some of you may know) She rarely drives, I am the main driver and registered keeper and generally drive her to work. Our insurance company who are a subsidiary of a major uk brand added business use class 1 (not commercial traveller) free of charge when i specifically explained the car usage . Why? because basically it is worth the cost of the phone call/few extra quid.... Even when using comparosin websites to negotiate at renewal the difference is generally less than a tenner.
At 20 the op's daughter WAS naive, but her employer being a solicitor has a duty of care to their employee and should do the right thing..
Will they?
And if Avant will let this pass we have the "privilege" of having a good insurance company and good customer services, english based and english speaking customer service agents too.
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Whilst on the subject it is worth noting that any voluntary or part time work should be declared too.
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Some insurers, Direct Line and Privilege to name two automatically include class 1 business on their policies.
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