M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - retgwte

Wow just seen the most dangerous stuff. Little old lady broken down in the inside lane. That lane no longer a hard shoulder recently been turned into a normal lane, and large HGV's wobbling all over the place and forced to change lane at short notice into the other lanes. Chaos everywhere. This is going to be a disaster.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Dwight Van Driver

Shirley the section would have a TRO as a managed hardshoulder and as such be signed to that effect so that drivers should be aware of the possibiity of a BDV.

Having said that I agree with the sentiments - not something if I was Transport Minister allow.

dvd

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - retgwte

Re "Shirley the section would have a TRO as a managed hardshoulder and as such be signed to that effect so that drivers should be aware of the possibiity of a BDV." nope. I am talking about the North East anti clockwise quarter of the M25 which as recently come out of long term roadworks and emerged like this.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Cyd

What makes this any different to someone breaking down in a middle or right hand lane?

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Bromptonaut

What makes this any different to someone breaking down in a middle or right hand lane?

In theory none but breakdowns that immobilise car completely and without warning are few and far between. Warning lights, noises, steam/smoke and such like at least give you enough time to get onto hard shoulder.

AIUI where hard shoulder runninig is norm there are refuges at regular intervals. Although some breakdowns will immobilise vehicle such that it cannot stagger a mile or so to refuge they're still a small proportion of overall total.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - RT

Hard shoulder running is only used on "Managed Motorways" those with very frequent cameras and signing gantries - it works well enough in other areas like the M6 and M42 although it doesn't of course actually reduce the number of vehicles on a route.

If you've ever had a cambelt break at 70mph in lane 3 of a busy motorway, you'll know that getting to the hard shoulder or refuge isn't always possible.

Get used to them because Managed Motorways will be used more and more to increase motorway capacity without building any new motorways - and the speeding fines from each gantry goes a long way to funding them!

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - memyself-aye

They work well on the M42 and M6 where traffiic flows much better at times of high usage. The signs are sufficiently large and frequent that if you ignore them and get a ticket you deserve it.

The only small bugbear is that they are sometimes on when traffic isn't that dense and on the M42 around Solihull, tend to oscillate between 40 and 60mph for seemingly no reason.

Overall though, they work.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - retgwte

I am familiar with hard shoulders being used on other motorways, how they are signed, and managed. This M25 section is different, it is setup to do this permanently and there are no refuges etc, it is not temporary signs look permanent.

As I say its a disaster waiting to happen, Wait for a little fog, and the ineviateble big smashes etc.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - RT

I am familiar with hard shoulders being used on other motorways, how they are signed, and managed. This M25 section is different, it is setup to do this permanently and there are no refuges etc, it is not temporary signs look permanent.

As I say its a disaster waiting to happen, Wait for a little fog, and the ineviateble big smashes etc.

On Managed Motorways, the hard shoulder is only open when necessary and when safe - if the weather increases the risk of collision the speed limit will be very low.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - retgwte

have a drive round this section and tell me its safe...

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Bromptonaut

have a drive round this section and tell me its safe...

My recollection is of there being refuges but as I only use it three/four times a year to acess Dover ferry port it'll be some time before I go that way again.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - retgwte

its only just reopened without cones etc after being long term roadworks for a long time

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - gordonbennet

Had a similar experience a few weeks ago morning peak period approaching Jct 5 M6 northbound, hard shoulder signed up as a live lane showing IIRC 50 limit for all 4 lanes.

There's a car broken on the now live running hard shoulder (presumably CCTV operator gone for a fag or coffee), lorry in front of car in front of me swerved out sharpish, car behind him didn't have his wits lit so had to jam his brakes on sharpish, i managed to slip out round him....last seen in my N/S mirror was a fast building minor traffic jam.

The broken down car's driver had enough time to sensibly vacate the car and get well away from it, time enough IMO for an awake motorway manager to manage.

I dislike this live hard shoulder fad, a cheap and very nasty fix for a road network designed to cope with a pint of people, now the population is in quarts and the infrastructure (as with so many other things) can't cope.

It wouldn't be so bad except that people insist on tailgating, something, if we still had a no politicaly led police force that didn't spend it's time doing politicians bidding, they could actually do something about.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - focussed

The hard shoulder was originally designd in so that it provided a place of refuge out of the traffic flow in case of breakdown or other emergency-it also provides a means of access to an emergency for the police and ambulance service.

To use it as a running lane is total madness and will lead to serious accidents, which will, no doubt, be blamed on drivers.

Penny pinching again by the government and highways authority - if thee isn't enough room on the motorways with three lanes in high traffic periods just restrict the access to the motorways for safety's sake.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - alan1302

To use it as a running lane is total madness and will lead to serious accidents, which will, no doubt, be blamed on drivers.

Whilst I do think the motorways should be properly upgraded 99% of any accidents are a drivers fault. if every driver dorove giving a proper gap and and a proper speed for the conditions most accidents would never take place in the first place.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - retgwte

not really, a lot of it is poor road design. the same engineers for the consultancies and public sector get to design new accident black spot after black spot but are never held responsible. its completely bonkers to blame drivers for some of the most obvious dangerous black spots where even the best driver completely switched on struggles to cope even in average circumstances.

if we actually controlled immigration properly our national infrastructure wouldnt be under such pressure that they needed to open hard shoulders to traffic

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - alan1302

not really, a lot of it is poor road design. the same engineers for the consultancies and public sector get to design new accident black spot after black spot but are never held responsible. its completely bonkers to blame drivers for some of the most obvious dangerous black spots where even the best driver completely switched on struggles to cope even in average circumstances.

if we actually controlled immigration properly our national infrastructure wouldnt be under such pressure that they needed to open hard shoulders to traffic

We will have to agree to disagree - I've neber come across a road in years of driving that would cause an accident if everyone drove properly. Some roads are better than others but any accident is down to poor driving.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - RT

I've never come across a road in years of driving that would cause an accident if everyone drove properly. Some roads are better than others but any accident is down to poor driving.

Well said - the money spent on "road safety" improvements is only because of the ijiots around and really just robs other services like health and education.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - gordonbennet

not really, a lot of it is poor road design. the same engineers for the consultancies and public sector get to design new accident black spot after black spot but are never held responsible. its completely bonkers to blame drivers for some of the most obvious dangerous black spots where even the best driver completely switched on struggles to cope even in average circumstances.

if we actually controlled immigration properly our national infrastructure wouldnt be under such pressure that they needed to open hard shoulders to traffic

Exactly, prime exmple being the M6/M1/A14 junction.

The idiot that designed (and all who had input to) that junction, especially the single track M6 to A14 as it passes under M1, should be doing hard labour time at her maj's pleasure every time some poor soul perished there...instead i have no doubt the designer is living a good long life on an index linked pension polishing gongs.

No one with an ounce of common sense would have allowed that junction to be built as it was, unfortunately cs absconded years ago from this country.

We have no control and no say over immigration numbers, we are an unimportant satellite state of the EU now and we'll do as we are ordered by that cartel, our fellow countrymen voted for this just as they were urged to do and will do so again, turkey/Christmas like.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Bromptonaut

Exactly, prime exmple being the M6/M1/A14 junction.

The idiot that designed (and all who had input to) that junction, especially the single track M6 to A14 as it passes under M1, should be doing hard labour time at her maj's pleasure every time some poor soul perished there...instead i have no doubt the designer is living a good long life on an index linked pension polishing gongs.

No one with an ounce of common sense would have allowed that junction to be built as it was, unfortunately cs absconded years ago from this country.

The designers had to work with money the politicos gave them. Initial designs for a proper interchange were returned as 'too costly'. It was possible to save a few quid when A14 was built by integrating old underbridges for minor roads into interchange so that's what they did. Same scenario at J15A when A43 was improved c1991.

Both have since had to be rebuilt at massive cost. The biggest scandal with Catthorpe was that whole thing was dug up four years ago because the M1/M6 viaduct was life expired. No sooner was the landscaping completed then it was routed out again for the current works.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - RT

Exactly, prime exmple being the M6/M1/A14 junction.

The idiot that designed (and all who had input to) that junction, especially the single track M6 to A14 as it passes under M1, should be doing hard labour time at her maj's pleasure every time some poor soul perished there...instead i have no doubt the designer is living a good long life on an index linked pension polishing gongs.

No one with an ounce of common sense would have allowed that junction to be built as it was, unfortunately cs absconded years ago from this country.

The designers had to work with money the politicos gave them. Initial designs for a proper interchange were returned as 'too costly'. It was possible to save a few quid when A14 was built by integrating old underbridges for minor roads into interchange so that's what they did. Same scenario at J15A when A43 was improved c1991.

Both have since had to be rebuilt at massive cost. The biggest scandal with Catthorpe was that whole thing was dug up four years ago because the M1/M6 viaduct was life expired. No sooner was the landscaping completed then it was routed out again for the current works.

It was all about cost-cutting - the Holyhead-Felixstowe motorway was in the original plans but only the Midland Links section was built - plans for the stretch east of the M1 were regularly proposed and rejected - eventually existing roads from Kettering-Felixstowe were upgraded and renumbered A14 together with the only new build from Catthorpe to Kettering and no money for a proper freeflow junction, mainly because it's restrictive space to get the flow right.

It's no different to the original motorways where the hard shoulders had shallow foundations to save cost - but as soon as they needed resurfacing, the hard shoulders had to be totally dug up to use deeper foundations to allow it to be used as a running lane during the contraflow.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Bromptonaut

if we actually controlled immigration properly our national infrastructure wouldnt be under such pressure that they needed to open hard shoulders to traffic

Utter nonesense.

Car ownership has grown exponentially for decades. Every house in this road, except for the one occupied by a sole divorcee, has at least two cars. Those with adult offspring at home might have four. None of that is immigration, just prosperity.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Alanovich

If you've ever had a cambelt break at 70mph in lane 3 of a busy motorway, you'll know that getting to the hard shoulder or refuge isn't always possible

I have. M25, Clackett Lane approaching. I made it. Just. Pushed the car down the sliproad in to the services. I needed new trousers, they didn't have any.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - P3t3r

Wow just seen the most dangerous stuff. Little old lady broken down in the inside lane. That lane no longer a hard shoulder recently been turned into a normal lane, and large HGV's wobbling all over the place and forced to change lane at short notice into the other lanes. Chaos everywhere. This is going to be a disaster.

Short notice? Did the broken down vehicle appear out of nowhere or was the HGV driver doing something wrong?

I rarely go on the M25 but around here it's the driving that's the biggest problem rather than the road design. Having said that, we should either have better law enforcement or adjust the roads to suit the ability of the drivers.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - daveyjp
Early fully managed motorways such as M42 and M62, M4 around Newport appear to work well. The latest model has much less traffic control, cheaper to install but only time will tell how well it works.

As for road design it is evolving all the time. There are many junctions which would now not be built, but they were built to the specification relevant at the time and based on traffic levels.

When motorways were first built they had no central reservation barrier! metal ones were installed. These were expensive to maintain and repairing them causes delays so they are now being replaced with solid concrete which doesn't deform during impact and keeps the vehicles on the carriageway.

I have no idea what immigration has to do with this discussion.
M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - gordonbennet
I have no idea what immigration has to do with this discussion.

don't millions more unplanned for people require an infrastructure or services, or must we adhere sheep like to elephant in the room syndrome till its standing room only.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Bromptonaut

Out with a friend the other week who observed extent to which 'get out car and wait on verge' message to those stopping on hard shoulder has been taken on board. Public education can work.

We need something similar for managed M/ways emphasising presence of refuges and need to move onto them if at all possible.

OK, if a cambelt lets go or a conrod is thrown you're going to come to a rapid halt, though a rapid clutch down/neutral might preserve enough momentum for nearside lane/hard shoulder. The usual stuff with warning lights/steam etc OTOH can generally be nursed for another mile or so.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Dwight Van Driver

Retgwte

Thars talking about a M Way which has Regs stating offences in connection with driving,stopping on hardshoulder. To remove this then shirley a TRO?

Surprised nobody has mentioned the clause in the Highway Code about driving at such a speed that you can pull up in the distance you can see to be clear.

All stopped reading this Bible?

dvd

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Sofa Spud

QUOTE: ...""Whilst I do think the motorways should be properly upgraded 99% of any accidents are a drivers fault."

That might be true but it's not much consolation if your broken-down car is hit by a vehicle being driven by a careless or risk-taking driver.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - ExA35Owner

There's a good deal of research evidence available on this issue. One point made somewhere in all that I've read is that a motorway with refuges and managed flow is significantly safer than A-road dual carriageways. The evidence suggests that managed motorways with hard shoulder running and refuges are only marginally worse than standard motorways.

Edited by ExA35Owner on 31/08/2014 at 20:04

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - gordonbennet

The evidence suggests that managed motorways with hard shoulder running and refuges are only marginally worse than standard motorways.

Statistics, damned statistics...when ill managed motorways have live hard shoulder running its virtually guaranteed that a speed limit of 60mph or less will be in place, unless someone stops completely in a lane it should be almost impossible in theory to have an accident when all 4 lanes are travelling @ 50mph ish in the same direction with a speed variant of only 3 or 4 mph between lanes, and they still manage to bash into each other.

M25 hard shoulder now another normal lane - Cyd

Just like on the M42 south, J5 to J4 area on Friday afternoon last!!

Luckily I go north in the afternoon.

 

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