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Drvetrain protection at low revs is in many diesel ECUs..Apparently..
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I brought it up to KIA 'expert' that what was missing was a Low Ratio shift, this has been on the US versions.
That would solve the problem .. as 1st seems to high, unless you put enough revs in place .. and then it slips. (or stalls if your don't)
A pity the automatic box can't handle 2.5T or I would have had that.
With all comments here about Land Rover being the answer, went to look at some details .... on What Car site for 4x4 LandRover has consistently come bottom every year for reliability .... seems that while they can do the job, they can't do it consistently or for very long.
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With all comments here about Land Rover being the answer, went to look at some details .... on What Car site for 4x4 LandRover has consistently come bottom every year for reliability .... seems that while they can do the job, they can't do it consistently or for very long.
seems we could level that same comment at your Kia Sorrento.
If you're going to let that put you off, you're biting off your own nose to spite your face!
All cars can suffer problems. they are complex machines. All cars are extremely good for Q&R compared to what they were a couple of decades ago.
If we cut to the chase here: it is clear the Kia isn't up to the task you are asking of it. The inescapeable conclusion is therefore that you need to change it to a vehicle that is. Or give up the boating. So what you gonna do?
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Maybe you missed the point .... the independent sites ... What Car, AA & Which state that LandRover consistently are the bottom of the table on reliability.
That is not an issue around "all cars have problems", but that LandRover consistently have a lot more than any other manufacturer.
KIA as it happens are currently No.1 in teh world according to J.D.Power for reliability.
I was sursprised, I'll admit that most sites rate BMW X3 as No.1 4x4
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With all comments here about Land Rover being the answer, went to look at some details .... on What Car site for 4x4 LandRover has consistently come bottom every year for reliability .... seems that while they can do the job, they can't do it consistently or for very long.
All the comments here do not suggest LR is the answer, wouldn't be on my shopping list.
At the end of the day you have a 2.2 engine with too high ratio first and reverse gears and expecting the vehicle to do the hard towing work that a Landcruiser/Defender is designed from scratch to do with ease, its never going to happen.
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With all comments here about Land Rover being the answer, went to look at some details .... on What Car site for 4x4 LandRover has consistently come bottom every year for reliability .... seems that while they can do the job, they can't do it consistently or for very long.
All the comments here do not suggest LR is the answer, wouldn't be on my shopping list.
At the end of the day you have a 2.2 engine with too high ratio first and reverse gears and expecting the vehicle to do the hard towing work that a Landcruiser/Defender is designed from scratch to do with ease, its never going to happen.
I'm not after a 100% of the time hard core 4x4 ... if I were I'd go by a defender.
I need a car that 90+ of the time can cruise a Motorway with ease & economy (Defender is certainly not that)
My point is that I bought a car sold as a 4x4 with a tow capacity of 2.5T
It cannot do 2.2T (or even 1.5T) on a hill start, and that seesm to me to be a design issue, not an incorrect expectation.
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Last week we sat on the beach at a bay used by many boats and dingys. Beach looked an easy tow but up to the car park was pretty steep. None of the boats would have been anywhere near 2.2 tonnes. But the effort need to get the boats/trailers out of the water before they even started up the beach and slope was probably the most difficult, the drag from the water made a huge difference.
And what did all the people use, they had a tractor that did the business. Not a single Defender went onto the beach and all the "leisure" 4 x 4 SUV's were way back in the car park.
Its obvious the people there know what is best for the job.
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My point is that I bought a car sold as a 4x4 with a tow capacity of 2.5T
It cannot do 2.2T (or even 1.5T) on a hill start, and that seesm to me to be a design issue, not an incorrect expectation.
Yes and it will tow 2.5 tons quite happily no doubt up and down the motorway for you, unfortunately you need either low range or an engine larger than 550cc per cyl (or both) to do the job you are asking it to on the slipway.
Again i re-iterate i wouldn't have a Defender as a gift, one of the reasons for which is that i'm over 5'6" and thats about the max size for comfort in the smalley cab, there are alternatives that have been mentioned that will do all you ask of them with ease.
You seem to be under the impression that its just the clutch at fault on the Kia, it isn't, the vehicle was never designed for hard core heavy lugging and it never will be any use for such with that small engine and no low range or ultra low 1st/reverese gears.
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My point is that I bought a car sold as a 4x4 with a tow capacity of 2.5T
It cannot do 2.2T (or even 1.5T) on a hill start, and that seesm to me to be a design issue, not an incorrect expectation.
Yes and it will tow 2.5 tons quite happily no doubt up and down the motorway for you, unfortunately you need either low range or an engine larger than 550cc per cyl (or both) to do the job you are asking it to on the slipway.
Again i re-iterate i wouldn't have a Defender as a gift, one of the reasons for which is that i'm over 5'6" and thats about the max size for comfort in the smalley cab, there are alternatives that have been mentioned that will do all you ask of them with ease.
You seem to be under the impression that its just the clutch at fault on the Kia, it isn't, the vehicle was never designed for hard core heavy lugging and it never will be any use for such with that small engine and no low range or ultra low 1st/reverese gears.
So why do I experience the same problem towing max1700Kg on a grass field which is flat onto 2 pieces of wood??
Again I think we are going round in circles here, Kia have made no comments that this vehicle is being driven outside it's "designed capabilities" it is clear Kia are mis-selling this car, the tow capacity is suppose to pull at % hill starts, this vehicle is clearly not in that league with the set up it has at the moment, (I have suggested to the Kia CEO that Kia change their sales adverts so potential buyers are aware of the Gen 2 Sorentos limitations for towing, but he did not make any comments to it), yes a low ratio GB is indead needed for this car or a re-design of the clutch, but as Gen 3 Sorento is due out next year, that is clearly not going to happen if the new one has a revised engine/GB.
If for one minute Kia thought this car was being "abused" by pulling a boat up the slip, they would have said so.
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Sorry Kiaboy but i do think the vehicle being used for the boat towing is being abused, it may well have 2.5t towing weight, but pulling a boat out of the water is a dead pull, that requires serious lugging ability and the car with its present engine/gearing won't ever be up to it no matter what clutch is installed, its always going to require high revs and clutch slip and thats always going to end up expensively.
Off topic, but we're having similar issues at one of our delivery points, the premises has been altered and now we are having to jack knife blind side reverse 44 tons up a steep slope off a one way street, as a caravanner you will know how hard this is and what i'm describing.
Our vehicles are automated manuals, so we're onto a loser immediately, the problem being the clutch wants to engage fully, reverse is too high geared and by the time we've forced the tanker up this blasted slope the clutch overheat warning is flashing up on the dash.
I've tried everything to help it out, lifted the tag axle to increase traction on the drive axle, cancelled ASR as traction control is immediately cutting power as soon as the drive axle senses slip, but the power available at low enough revs/gearing just isn't there.
Vehicles not specified correctly, end of.
Back to the Kia, about the only thing IMO thats going to help in the situation is putting more fuel through at low revs in first/reverse gear, if the vehicle were mine i would be tempted to remap for low revved torque, but i suspect you and others will be giving Kia a lot of gyp over this, and can't say i blame you, so you can't really start tinkering with the motor as it might well end up breaking the next weakest link in the drivetrain.
I like Sorento/Santa Fe, but i wouldn't have bought into such a small engine and expected it to do this lugging work unless it had a low ratio option.
Edited by gordonbennet on 06/08/2014 at 20:07
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Guys ... forget the comments that towing across beach is too hard - use a tractor, forget comments that towing with boat still in water is too much drag.
Both are irrelevant for this issue.
KIA Technical expert came to witness the problem. ... we went to slipway when there was no tide ... so all we had was car on the concrte ramp, repeat ALL 4 WHEELS on dry concrete .... so this is a simple hill start.
The car CANNOT do a hill start with a trailer (>300Kg below stated capacity) .. without clutch burning.
No sand, no water ......... just a hill start.
The 2.2L diesel is supposed to give loads of torque at low revs, so again should be OK for the job.
KIA have been asked clealry - and they state teh vehicle is suitable for up to 2.5T and at greater gradients than the issues occur at.
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Might be of interest ...
Hyundia who are the parent compnay of KIA manufacture the Sant Fe (in same factory) and it shares many of the mechnacial componenets & assenblies.
They have acknowldeged the DMF issues and even prodcuced conversion to standard clutch.
www.autobiz.ie/techtips/Blue-Print/hyundai-santa-f...f
I know that is not new, but is does show Hyundia are aware of the issuie for some time.
Also did some Googling and found Lexus, Audi, VW all have the same issue
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=Dual+Mass+Flywheel+burning
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From the first link, this clutch conversion (and ECU upgrade for higher torque) only apply to previous model Santa Fe up to 2003 with the 2.0 litre engine.
quote
Hyundai have an additional minor ECM upgrade for severe cases to improve vehicle torque in first and reverse
gears. This ECM upgrade is only available from Hyundai.
The bulletin only applies to the Santa Fe 2.0 diesel (D4EA) 4x4 with manual transaxle, produced before June 30th
2003, and any vehicle converted from Dual Mass flywheel to Single Mass should have ‘SMF’ marked in indelible
Edited by gordonbennet on 27/08/2014 at 17:55
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Get a 3L auto with 4wd, more torque more gears if you select correctly, and no clutch to burn, something with a 8speed ZF box.
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I may well get something else next time ........
Yes I would like an automtic but the KIA automatic reduces Tow capacity to only 2T
However does not chnage fact car is rated, advertised & specified to tow up to 2.5T.
At considerbaly less than this the clutch slips so badly that car stinks of burnt cluch linings for Hrs afterwards. This does not seem correct response for a vehicle being used within rated loading ...... it does not seem 'Fit for pupose'
As many people are seeing this and at much lower towing weights - seems fundamantal flaw with DMF stup, surprised that AA/WHICH or similar are not taking this up.
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surprised that AA/WHICH or similar are not taking this up.
That is probably because they realise no leisure 4 x 4 is designed to tow 2.5 tonnes up a slipway towing a boat from a dead stop out of water.
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surprised that AA/WHICH or similar are not taking this up.
That is probably because they realise no leisure 4 x 4 is designed to tow 2.5 tonnes up a slipway towing a boat from a dead stop out of water.
Clearly they aren't designed for it. I think the point is that they should be, if they say they are.
It's reasonable to assume that a towing limit covers a reasonable gradient, and actually starting off, and that someone with a 2200kg requirement would thaink a 4x4 with a 2500kg limit would be adequate, at least for occasional personal rather than regular commercial use.. What do you use a "leisure 4x4" for if not leisure? What is boating if not leisure?
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Exactly my view .......... I genuinely don't expect it to be an off road, farm capapable machine, but do expect it to be able to do a hill start on reasonbale gradient at the stated to capacity (or well under it)
I have looked at some of the options here and maybe getting an Indian car in future (Land Rover), but the price hike is more than 30% .. and too much for me.
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An issue is something that appears regularly usually a magazine or periodical or as with a newborn a result of copulation, what the original poster has with the dual mass flywheel is a problem or a fault.
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An issue is something that appears regularly usually a magazine or periodical or as with a newborn a result of copulation, what the original poster has with the dual mass flywheel is a problem or a fault.
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Very helpful.
Is its a problem, or a fault? That is the issue.
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Very helpful.
Is its a problem, or a fault? That is the issue.
As usual a prat is a prat is a prat.
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issue noun. An important topic or problem for debate or discussion
QED.
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As many people are seeing this and at much lower towing weights - seems fundamantal flaw with DMF stup, surprised that AA/WHICH or similar are not taking this up.
Well, IF you are a member, write to them.
If not, tough.
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If Not Tough ..... thank you for that helpful reply.
UPDATE - 4th Sept
Contacted by KIA today ... they advise that E there is a 'new' model clutch for the Sorento.
Although my clutch was changed as part of the tests in July... what was fitted was the 'standard' clutch & DMF.
My car is going in on Monday to have this new clutch fitted ... and then I will retest and report back on results - good that this issue is getting some focus.
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I have launched and recovered many boats of all sorts and weights up to about 2.5 tonnes on slipways, fresh and salt water, dry, wet, etc mainly with a Volvo 240, because that's what my employer deemed a suitable vehicle for me to use. The trick is to use a rope long enough so that the vehicle stays on level ground while the boat is launched or recovered on the slipway. Put boat/trailer on slipway apply brake and chock wheels, unhitch trailer from car, attach rope to car and trailer take the strain, remove chocks, release brake etc etc.
The only time I had a problem was at a slipway that was gravel and it took the combined efforts of two 240's roped up in tandem to drag the boat out, and that was only a tiddly ski-boat.
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Nice idea ... and while this might work if you have a huge flat area behind the slip, simply not possible on the 2 locations I launch.
I would use this on beach recovery to avois putting car in the soft sand
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Well after many emails and discussions to Kia CEO and customer services about rejecting the car for "not fit for purpose" and New Car Code, and discussing this with the Kia dealer Principle, Kia have agreed to add the clutch to the 7 year warranty as they do not have a fix for the clutch smell.
So at least I have a bit of piece of mind they will replace it if it gives up, (2 years is the time frame normally for clutches)
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