Should buyers expect the law to protect them when they buy cars like this ?
Probably not, but dealers (and business owners in general) are outnumbered by customers and staff, so the workshy politicians who create these laws have more to gain by pandering to the biggest pool. It's all part of Governments 'don't worry, nothings ever your fault' headpatting of the masses.
I've seen people make the most illogical buying decisions possible, but they'll always blame someone other than themselves. If the law doesn't bail them out, they'll go on the telly asking why the Government didn't protect them.
Obviously we can't expect every car buyer to be any sort of expert, so it's fair that we ask dealers to sell things which are fit for purpose. However, expecting a dealer to essentially guarantee a used car for six months is madness. So long as it's roadworthy on the date of sale, I don't see a problem. You either buy it or go somewhere offering you better terms.
Edited by jamie745 on 09/01/2014 at 21:37
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I see what you mean about the law being silly, but all the same, I've only got £2500 knocking about and I don't like taking the bus! The car was a soup-herb example too. I'm pretty sure it'd be fine. It was just the dealer's saying "no warranty and you just take your chances from day one" or words to that effect.
Just seemed a little ODD.
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To be fair HJ does say that the consumer must be reasonable at around the £2000 or £3000 mark. But to deny all rights completely - well he lost the sale. I also wonder, would the receipt have had that trade sale wording, no guarantee implied or given etc etc??
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It does sound slightly cheap if it's absolutely mint 2003 example, but not very cheap. I'd expect it to be more £3k ish but perhaps he's just struggled to sell it, it's not the easiest thing to sell.
I've got one of these S-Types, mine is a 56 reg, 3.0litre. I paid £5,000 for mine a couple of years ago and it has been terrific overall. The Sat Nav needed attention, as it thought I was on the M1 all the time. Late last year it had a problem with one of the modules running the rear lights.
There's not too much to be concerned about with one of these, providing theres no rumbling or rattles and it goes up and down the gearbox without fault. There is an awful lot of electrical gubbins in the car but it's put together well enough.
With all due respect though, I wouldn't recommend such a car to somebody who will have to max out their relatively small budget for it. These things do 27 to a gallon, they go through tyres at a reasonable rate of knots and putting cheap ditchfinders on a RWD saloon with 240 horsepower is foolish.
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Thanks Jamie, though I'm not maxing out, I'm just also saving for a new(er) caravan. The car I walked away from had excellent Pirellis. In fact I might toss a coin to decide to buy it or not. It'll have to be approved by SWMBO and she thought it made me look like Captain Mainwaring.
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It'll have to be approved by SWMBO and she thought it made me look like Captain Mainwaring.
I'm 29 you cheeky b******.
I've got the Michelin Primacys on mine which are very good. If Avant is reading, I stress I am not connected to Michelin in any way.
Or Jaguar, for that matter.
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I'm slightly older and about due a mid-life crisis, so a car that has plenty of room for the jolly old golf clubs and probably a pipe rack is a bit of a lurch in the wrong direction. I will try to make up for it by playing my Ninjaman cds very loud (who he? ed)
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(I've only got £2500 knocking about and I don't like taking the bus! )
Have you any experience of running cars like this ?
Buying it is only the beginning ,tax , insurance and servicing are all more expensive than a normal car .
They don't often go wrong , but when they do they can be very expensive .
If you want a cheap runabout ,maybe a focus or something similar ?
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I've got the tax, insurance (my previous car was faster) and service budget covered. Plus the towbar fitting. I need to drag a caravan round behind me!
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and anyway - I've seen a Jag S in Manchester for £2k with a warranty, yipee.
And I've seen a Vel Satis for £2k too.
No wonder I'm going cross-eyed.
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Where abouts do you live by the way? Prices on used cars really do vary. I'm a Suffolk boy but will always head to Essex to buy a motor, because everyone in Essex is a car dealer.
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Where abouts do you live by the way? Prices on used cars really do vary. I'm a Suffolk boy but will always head to Essex to buy a motor, because everyone in Essex is a car dealer.
I live in Essex-I AM NOT A CAR DEALER!!!!
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(and anyway - I've seen a Jag S in Manchester for £2k with a warranty, yipee.)
A warranty on cars like this cost me £16 ! They are near impossible to make a claim on ,they are designed to help dealers sell cars ,because buyers insist on a written warranty .
The maximum payout is £500 with a £50 excess ,they cover failure of engine and gearbox only , but not wear and tare .
Not really a reason to buy a car ,are they ?
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I've got the tax, insurance (my previous car was faster) and service budget covered. Plus the towbar fitting. I need to drag a caravan round behind me!
May I suggest that you check out this site first to find what sort of 10 year old car combines the best qualities of 'caravan towing yet sporty when not towing' characteristics.
www.towcar.info/index.php
240 bhp from the S Type Jag sounds a lot but you also need plenty of torque low down in the rpm range and a wide power band to tow a caravan effortlessly. Typically the greater the difference between the manufacturers quoted 'rpm at max power' and 'rpm at max torque', expressed as a percentage of the 'rpm at max power', the greater is the ability of the car to haul heavy loads. Many would go for a Turbo Diesel Saloon or a similar Turbo Diesel SUV to give the 'dual purpose vehicle' you seem to require. It should be possible to buy a very tidy 10 year old for your budget of £2500
Edited by Firmbutfair on 09/01/2014 at 23:04
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Back to the original OP
Could the dealer not avoid a warranty if he sold it to you as a 'trade' car, provided he made it clear on the invoice?
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Back to the original OP
Could the dealer not avoid a warranty if he sold it to you as a 'trade' car, provided he made it clear on the invoice?
If it was your own 10 to 12 year old car for private sale, at say around £1000 to £1500 then even with a good service history, bills etc you would probably still insist on the buyer accepting it 'sold as seen' on the sales invoice - since something could fail within a week or so if the new owner was rough with it . However , £2500 for an 11 year old S type Jag seems a bit pricey and the only reason any one would buy an older second hand Jag from a dealer is because you should expect at least a three month warranty. I always tend to think that any older car for sale at a dealer is only there because the previous owner had either 'bodged it up' or knew it had at least one 'advisory notice' on the most recent MOT or it had become an oil burner or its shockers were 'shot' or the clutch was slipping etc and so had 'part exchanged' it to get rid of the problem with no comeback.
Edited by Firmbutfair on 10/01/2014 at 00:50
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I agree,
£2500 iis way over priced.
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Back to the original OP
Could the dealer not avoid a warranty if he sold it to you as a 'trade' car, provided he made it clear on the invoice?
Dealer selling to Joe Public is subject to SoGA, no exclusions whatever is wriiten/said.
I disagree that SoGA gives too much protection - it includes provisions that the age/price paid do affect what is reasonable and proportionate to expect - so dealers aren't at risk of spending £1000s to put right a 10 year old car with 100,000 miles on the clock.
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He can sell the car without a warranty, but your "Statutory Rights Are Not Affected".
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He can sell the car without a warranty, but your "Statutory Rights Are Not Affected".
It's SoGA that defines your statutory rights.
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"...as a dealer I have to say the law s ludicrous .
Buying a car like this is not a sensible proposition ,it's a purchase based on a passion for the marque similair to buying a classic car .
Should buyers expect the law to protect them when they buy cars like this ?"
Sorry, Tony - though I read your posts with interest, I have to say I have no sympathy for dealers in this situation. If you don't want the hassle of selling such a car, then don't sell cars like that. It's that simple.
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(Sorry, Tony - though I read your posts with interest, I have to say I have no sympathy for dealers in this situation. If you don't want the hassle of selling such a car, then don't sell cars like that. It's that simple.)
It's rarely that simple , following your argument through to its conclusion that dealers shouldn't sell cars like this .It would follow that they could only be bought and sold privately ,without even the minimum preparations , warranties and part exchange that dealers offer .
In addition if dealers didn't buy and sell cars like this ,it would dramatically alter the cars value ,by reducing demand .The trade value could be £300 for parts /scrap ,rather than £1500 trade value .
Not much of a prospect if you bought one as a decent second hand car for £5/£6000
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"In addition if dealers didn't buy and sell cars like this ,it would dramatically alter the cars value ,by reducing demand .The trade value could be £300 for parts /scrap ,rather than £1500 trade value ."
Which wouldn't be your problem.
Do you really worry about lowering the value of cars like this? If there's something in it for you as a trader, you'll trade. If not, you won't.
I imagine used car prices have settled at the point where the need for a trader to take the occasional hit on a bad one that he didn't spot in advance will still enable him to balance the books overall.
The law in this case is there because the individual who buys from a trader should get more protection (and has in effect paid for it) than if he bought privately and paid a lot less.
I don't see anything wrong with the law as it stands.
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FP
(Which wouldn't be your problem.
Do you really worry about lowering the value of cars like this? If there's something in it for you as a trader, you'll trade. If not, you won't.)
Much to naïve a perspective ,
dealers are always keen to see high retained values on used cars .
If as a dealer you sell a car for £5 or £6000 ,it's much easier to sell a replacement car to that same buyer if the car is worth £1500 /£2000 in 3 years time .If the cars only worth £500 ,a buyer will simply run the car for an extra year or two until it needs major repairs and it's worthless .
Regarding consumer law and soga ,buyers are conditioned by soga to expect far to much from older used cars .A potential buyer on a 2005 fiesta £2000 .recently asked me if I knew I had to guarantee the car for 6 years under consumer law !
The problem is that soga is not clear when it comes to used cars ,perhaps 3 months 3000 miles on engine and gearbox without cost limit would be appropriate on cars like the fiesta , and could be written into Soga ? Or something similair .
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At £2,500 the price reflects what is being sold. A car which the dealer has not done much to and probably just wants rid of.
There are cheaper 11 year old cars, but at £2,500 it may well go if someone is happy following a test drive. I know my local Jag specialist would have it up for more than that, but they will have prepped it for sale, it will be immaculate and you will get a 2 year (possibly worthless, but they provide one) warranty.
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First of all, with a retail car there is no way a trader can get out of his SOGA obligations selling to a consumer. Nothing he can put on the receipt, stamp on the invoice or sense from another world is it OK to do so.
However SOGA is reasonable, if the car engine did indeed blow up the next day you would be fully entitled, (unless he states the engine is faulty) to a repair, replacement or refund. SOGA is not a bumper to bumper warranty however, so if your wheel bearings start groaning in a thousand miles , the back bushes moan when you reverse off the driveway, or your coolant warning light comes up in three months, it is an old car and he wouldn't necessarily be forced into doing anything.
It's interesting he is retailing it at all, because £2500 is a retail price, but an S has more than enough ways of swalliowng that up in a good service. Perhaps he is either young and naive or a thug who does business this way. Any other trader would run it themselves then send it off to auction, they are too much bother to keep on top of.
I confess that my S type, a 53 plate 3.0SE auto, which I honestly considered as my main private car has only done 1100 miles in the last year and just over 2000 miles the previous year. Perhaps time to be honest and sell it, but I certainly wouldn't dream of asking for more than £1500 for it and be entirely up front about its "patination".
Edited by colino on 10/01/2014 at 15:05
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