It is for reasons such as the stupid woman texting that I am an advocate of in car cameras. I would like to think the Police would follow up any such footage sent to them.
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There's a photo of a copper on his mobile while driving his van doing the rounds on facebook, with the caption, share this and get him his 3 points - or words to that effect
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How slow were you going to get overtaken by someone texting?!
Whilst not a fan of playing with phones whilst driving, I don't think it is any more of a distraction than convertibles that lower the roof whilst moving, or in car 'entertainment systems' for those with ADHD.
If you propose throwing the book at texters, then the same rules should apply to other distractions.
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Texting drivers are far more distracted than using a radio or anything else,one texter wrote my old car off by not seeing me stop and ploughed into my rear end,driver didnt even let go of phone when they got out still texting.
Driver, a young Lady, said my brake lights didnt work (they did but she didnt see them)
So mobiles imo should be banned from use in a car while driving and penalties should be stiffer if caught,wont stop people though I dont think
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There is no difference between texting and reading a book of playing Sudoku while driving. Properly designed instrumentation should take the drivers eyes off the road for a fraction of a second, something no mobile can ever do.
Edited by davecooper on 16/07/2013 at 13:51
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There is no difference between texting and reading a book of playing Sudoku while driving
That's my point. Jimmy Carr was aquitted of using a mobile phone at the wheel because his lawyer successfully argued that he was recording a joke into a dictaphone. It's about common sense, not legal technicalities.
I had a complete twazzock moment today when I came to a roundabout and decided to assume that the car on the roundabout would be going straight on like the rest of the traffic.
No phone, no alcohol, no speeding, just plain idiocy on my part. .
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Oh dear - I have done that before. A gentle nudge of the car in front was not what was I was expecting when I looked right and set off....
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No, the car was ccoming from the opposite direction. It's a small roundabout with the exits very close together and virtually every car goes straight on.There's a temptation to assume that all cars will go straight on.
No collision-just an undignified emergency stop. The other car was able to continue with its manoeuvre unhindered. My driving has become sloppy lately. A gentle timely lesson :)
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Unthrottled, The good thing is, You actually took responsibility for it and have realised you made a mistake. It never ceases to amaze me the amount of people who having done something wrong themselves, Blame other road users for it.
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My driving has become sloppy lately. A gentle timely lesson :)
Your old age showing through. :) You should know better now you've reached 30. :)
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There is no difference between texting and reading a book of playing Sudoku while driving
That's my point. Jimmy Carr was aquitted of using a mobile phone at the wheel because his lawyer successfully argued that he was recording a joke into a dictaphone. It's about common sense, not legal technicalities.
I had a complete twazzock moment today when I came to a roundabout and decided to assume that the car on the roundabout would be going straight on like the rest of the traffic.
No phone, no alcohol, no speeding, just plain idiocy on my part. .
Here we go,you will be saying next its ok for women to put makeup on while driving and blow drying there hair and looking in vanity mirror I`m sure they can see the road as well ;)
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looking in vanity mirror I`m sure they can see the road as well ;)
At least they're using their mirrors-even if not for the intended purpose! (i'm feeling sanquine today)
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Although skilled at multitasking, women find this inadvisable as the probability of stabbing yourself in the eye with a mascara wand is high.
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How slow were you going to get overtaken by someone texting?!
Whilst not a fan of playing with phones whilst driving, I don't think it is any more of a distraction than convertibles that lower the roof whilst moving, or in car 'entertainment systems' for those with ADHD.
If you propose throwing the book at texters, then the same rules should apply to other distractions.
70ish.
Some distractions are more dangerous than others.
BTW, I have a woman friend who says she will not answer the phone while driving yet is quite happy to text. She drives an Audi TT.
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How slow were you going to get overtaken by someone texting?!
Whilst not a fan of playing with phones whilst driving, I don't think it is any more of a distraction than convertibles that lower the roof whilst moving, or in car 'entertainment systems' for those with ADHD.
If you propose throwing the book at texters, then the same rules should apply to other distractions.
70ish.
Some distractions are more dangerous than others.
BTW, I have a woman friend who says she will not answer the phone while driving yet is quite happy to text. She drives an Audi TT.
throw the book at anyone who uses a phone in the hand while driving,how many can drive one handed anyway?.
Most have to take hand off of steering to change gear and those hitting a bend at the same time actually cause accidents even though they may not be in it,ie someone else has to swerve away to miss them and hit another car,I`ve seen that a couple of times....
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Oh I love a good bit of intolerance, god gave us knees to look after the steering wheel when that one hand has to deal with changing gear..........honestly!
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Oh I love a good bit of intolerance, god gave us knees to look after the steering wheel when that one hand has to deal with changing gear..........honestly!
I know, van/lorry drivers use em all the time, idiots
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how many can drive one handed anyway?.
My car's an automatic....
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how many can drive one handed anyway?.
My car's an automatic....
Ditto.
And I can drive the wheel with my knees.. so no hands.
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how many can drive one handed anyway?.
My car's an automatic....
Ditto.
And I can drive the wheel with my knees.. so no hands.
arent you clever.
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Stupid one I saw today. Queue of traffic in road at roadworks. Before roadworks is a right turn with a short right turn lane, before which is keep-left island. Idiot in SUV decides to overtake queue of traffic, passing on RIGHT of keep left island. Obviously he was totally unaware of the possibility having a head-on collision if a vehicle were to turn left out of the road he wanted to turn into.
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Yes, Unthrottled, I almost did the same last Friday when I relised that I was in the wrong lane coming out of the supermarket car-park. I changed to the correct lane part way onto the roundabout only to be tooted by a chap wanting to buzz staight through at a faster rate of knots. If I could have knuckled my forelock would these young people have understood the gesture ?
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Twazzock of The Day Award 2.
This award goes to the cyclist who violenty beat his fist against my driver's side window this morning in Cambridge. This was followed by two of his fingers defying gravity. I have a feeling there may have been some profanities, but these were drowned out by my radio! Anyway, I was so shocked and shaken that I totally ignored the twazzock! If I had thought, I should have taken his photograph.
I was pretty sure I was not at fault. Later today I recounted the events to a chauffeur, who concurred with my own thoughts of the incident. He mentioned he has told off a cyclist in the past for such behaviour. The cyclist just rode off.
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This award goes to the cyclist who violenty beat his fist against my driver's side window this morning in Cambridge. This was followed by two of his fingers defying gravity. I have a feeling there may have been some profanities, but these were drowned out by my radio! Anyway, I was so shocked and shaken that I totally ignored the twazzock! If I had thought, I should have taken his photograph.
I was pretty sure I was not at fault. Later today I recounted the events to a chauffeur, who concurred with my own thoughts of the incident. He mentioned he has told off a cyclist in the past for such behaviour. The cyclist just rode off.
This isn't all that informative. What hapened before the cyclist beat his fist against your window?
I don't generally favour such behaviour but last time I saw it (Addison Lee taxi pulling over cyclist as soon as latter was behind B pillar) cylist was a bit short on other options.
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Bromptonaut,
I came up to a roundabout in Cambridge on the ring road. There are two lanes. The left one is for going left or straight ahead. I was at the front of this lane and a cyclist appeared on my right side. There was also a car in the right hand lane. We pulled away to go to the next set of traffic lights, which are just beyond the first exit. As he stayed in the same lane as me I gave him a wide berth keeping well left. When we reached the next set of traffic lights, which were red, I stopped. He stopped and then started his tirade.
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When we reached the next set of traffic lights, which were red, I stopped. He stopped and then started his tirade.
Lycra panties too tight, chafing the delicates.
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Does anyone know Cozy Powell's last words, without looking them up? aaagaggakakak
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Wish the woman's text read 'have to get back to u.....police car flagging to stop'
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Had a great one the other day, Roadworks on the motorway 40mph through roadworks with SPECs cameras. I was being tailgated by a volvo FM12 truck who was flashing his lights for me to go faster! Does the baffoon not realise that it says 40 for a reason and that with average speed cameras there they will issue speeding fines! He then decided to overtake in a very agressive and close manner.
I wished I'd made a note of his number plate and reported him for tailgating and aggressive driving now, It's idiots like him that give us HGV drivers a bad name.
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Presume your car speedo over reads 2 or 3 mph, which his tacho doesn't?
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Hgv speedometers are calibrated unlike the one in your car. You were probably doing 35-38 mph. But he shouldn't of been tailgating.
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What I never understand is if tachographs can read speed so accuractely, why can't car speedos/mileometers? I would pay an extra £50 - £100 for one that read accurately to within 1mph all the way up to 70 or more.
I am also amazed howso many supposedly "professional" HGV drivers (I would have to say the majority) can act so irresponsibly, given their vehicles take far, far longer to stop than cars and have the ability to kill many people in the blink of an eye through doing such stupid and reckless things, as appears to have been the case (not proven, just going on newpaper/TV reports yesterday) of the M25 lorry accident yesterday.
All that to get to your destination a minute earlier. If we all gave eachother decent gaps on the roads, and especially on dual carriageways/motorways, traffic would flow more freely (less braking/bunching causing hold-ups) and far, far less accidents. I was on the M25 yesterday after that accident, and many drivers (including one particular dumper truck driver) obviously couldn't care less about the rules of the road and were cutting in at high speed and doing emergency stops just to get further up queues, etc. Idiots! Shame we don't have more traffic cops to nick these berks - they deserve everything the legal system can throw at them!
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What I never understand is if tachographs can read speed so accuractely, why can't car speedos/mileometers?
I believe it is a long-standing agreement to allow a 10% margin of error for variable behaviour among mass-produced speedos, and fall-off in performance with older ones. They should never under-read, but may over-read by 10% - and usually do. So you should never be speeding if yours reads 32. But people move the goalposts by fitting different-sized wheels to their cars.
Of course you could just rely on your GPS ....
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What I never understand is if tachographs can read speed so accuractely, why can't car speedos/mileometers?
I believe it is a long-standing agreement to allow a 10% margin of error for variable behaviour among mass-produced speedos, and fall-off in performance with older ones. They should never under-read, but may over-read by 10% - and usually do. So you should never be speeding if yours reads 32. But people move the goalposts by fitting different-sized wheels to their cars.
Of course you could just rely on your GPS ....
Some people must be really desperate to get to their destination 30 sec earlier if they think risking their licence doing 32/33 in a 30 zone. Maybe they should've left earlier?
No GPS/Sat Nav for me - I just rely on maps (stopping if I need to more than glance across), familiarising myself with today's journey and leaving a decent margin in case of delays, detours and getting lost (occasionally!). I probably would get a Satnav if I used my car on unfamiliar routes more often.
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I'm well aware of the fact HGV's and coaches have a more accurate speedo due to it being linked to the tacho and re checked at frequent intervals during the vehicles life. I should be having held an LGV and PCV licence myself for many years.
The speedo in my car is only about 3mph slow compared with satnav, He was just one of the many muppets who could not wait until the end of the restriction to increase his speed.
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Wackyracer, I'd noted you are a HGV driver, respect for you as I appreciate the skills needed and most are still the best on the roads. As has been discussed on here many times, some HGV drivers will cheerfully be a mobile roadblock for a mile or two or three overtaking another HGV which is 0.25 mph slower.
A possible 3 mph reduction following a car will thus be enough to drive these muppets to tailgate and flash. I've suffered this from trucks (and coaches) through the 50 mph limits where central barrier works were ongoing, even though I was at the limit by satnav.
Such idiots should be banned or restricted to Reliant Robins.
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The award today goes to the HGV operator who thinks an adequate replacement for the fuel cap on a tipper truck is a piece of jumper wedged into the fuel tank with an empty one pint plastic milk carton.
No wonder bikers come off when they hit spilt diesel.
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Tipper drivers are in there own league for stupednes. As they are paud by the job they do all manner of things just to get as many jobs in as they can in one day.
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Tipper drivers are in there own league for stupednes. As they are paud by the job they do all manner of things just to get as many jobs in as they can in one day.
Yep, there's a reason why tip/skip trucks are killing approx one cyclist a month in London.
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My award goes to the cyclist on the wet and dark Bristol Ring Road A4174 without lights at 7am this morning. Maybe he feels he should be let off because he was wearing Hi-Viz, scary seeing traffic on the dual carrageway passing him at 60mph+.
Cyclists are common on this section of road, I'm not against cyclists, but I can't understand their stupidity in using this fast moving road, when at great cost to the tax payer a cycleway runs parrallel with most of this section of the A4174.
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My award goes to the cyclist on the wet and dark Bristol Ring Road A4174 without lights at 7am this morning. Maybe he feels he should be let off because he was wearing Hi-Viz, scary seeing traffic on the dual carrageway passing him at 60mph+.
Cyclists are common on this section of road, I'm not against cyclists, but I can't understand their stupidity in using this fast moving road, when at great cost to the tax payer a cycleway runs parrallel with most of this section of the A4174.
No lights at 07:00 when sunrise in Bristol today was 07:11 - maybe he thought it was light enough. Depending on weather it might well be.
As to why cyclists don't use the cycleway there has to be a reason, only the odd one will ignore it from cussedness. Common reasons to avoid are poor surfacing, debris including glass, shared with pedestrians so hazards from them and dogs, cycle lane repeatedly gives way to side roads and does not run full length of ring road.
Also for half the bike traffic it might be on 'wrong' side of dual carriageway meaning a hazardous crossing times two, possibly on foot, to access it.
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My award goes to the cyclist on the wet and dark Bristol Ring Road A4174 without lights at 7am this morning. Maybe he feels he should be let off because he was wearing Hi-Viz, scary seeing traffic on the dual carrageway passing him at 60mph+.
Cyclists are common on this section of road, I'm not against cyclists, but I can't understand their stupidity in using this fast moving road, when at great cost to the tax payer a cycleway runs parrallel with most of this section of the A4174.
No lights at 07:00 when sunrise in Bristol today was 07:11 - maybe he thought it was light enough. Depending on weather it might well be.
As to why cyclists don't use the cycleway there has to be a reason, only the odd one will ignore it from cussedness. Common reasons to avoid are poor surfacing, debris including glass, shared with pedestrians so hazards from them and dogs, cycle lane repeatedly gives way to side roads and does not run full length of ring road.
Also for half the bike traffic it might be on 'wrong' side of dual carriageway meaning a hazardous crossing times two, possibly on foot, to access it.
So passing traffic of 70mph is prefferable to the odd dog and a slow moving pedestrian?
As far as the cycleway being on the wrong side of the carriageway goes, there are underpasses and frequent pelican crossings near the roundabouts along the section of the 4174 that said cyclist was using.
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If lights were so necessary, how did you see him and why wouldn't everyone else?
This cycle path is in good condition, but unlit and overgrown with high hedges which compounds the visibility issues. It is used by many pedestrians who don't wear hi viz or carry lights, neither do the dogs being walked. The crossings would be fine if the car and lorry drivers understood that red and amber means stop not speed up.
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If lights were so necessary, how did you see him and why wouldn't everyone else?
This cycle path is in good condition, but unlit and overgrown with high hedges which compounds the visibility issues. It is used by many pedestrians who don't wear hi viz or carry lights, neither do the dogs being walked. The crossings would be fine if the car and lorry drivers understood that red and amber means stop not speed up.
I saw him because the carriageway is lit and my headlights picked out his twinkling hi-vz, it was still dark and raining heavily, visibility was poor, maybe it would have been OK for me not to have my lights on as my car has rear reflectors? no sorry, I forgot motorists have to abide by the law....
Cyclists are not allowed to cycle on a motorway for good reason, as far as I'm concerned a dual carriageway with a 70 mph limit is just as dangerous, moreso in rain and poor light, not to mention with no lights and with a cycletrack yards away to his left.
The cyclist I saw this morning and the appeasers here give the decent cyclists a bad name and want it all ways, give 'em cycleways and thats still not good enough...
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"Cyclists are not allowed to cycle on a motorway for a good reason, as far as I'm concerned a dual carriageway with a 70 mph limit is just as dangerous, more so in rain and poor light, not to mention with no lights and with a cycletrack yards away to his left.
The cyclist I saw this morning and the appeasers here give the decent cyclists a bad name and want it all ways, give 'em cycleways and thats still not good enough..."
Perhaps this cyclist was ignoring his special cycletrack for the same reason that some joggers insist on running in the gutter instead of on a perfectly suitable pavement. I've never understood the sense in that.
Edited by Andrew-T on 05/11/2013 at 23:22
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Give up A3 A4! You'll never win an arguement about a twazzock cyclist, I've heard all the excuses -
"Its safer to jump a red light "
"I can't use the cycle lane because it takes me 1 minnute more, I'd rather cause big problems cycling on this 60mph single carriage way and nearly get myself killed 4 times a day "
"I put myself in front of this woman was at the front of the junction looking right for a space in the traffic and when there was a space in the traffic she nearly ran me over as she had not realised I'd be such an idiot to put myself in danger"
Maybe it would be ok for me to drive my car on the pavement as there is less hazards there for me? It's about as plausable as some of the nonsense I've heard from cyclists.
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Give up A3 A4! You'll never win an arguement about a twazzock cyclist, I've heard all the excuses -
"Its safer to jump a red light "
"I can't use the cycle lane because it takes me 1 minnute more, I'd rather cause big problems cycling on this 60mph single carriage way and nearly get myself killed 4 times a day "
"I put myself in front of this woman was at the front of the junction looking right for a space in the traffic and when there was a space in the traffic she nearly ran me over as she had not realised I'd be such an idiot to put myself in danger"
Maybe it would be ok for me to drive my car on the pavement as there is less hazards there for me? It's about as plausable as some of the nonsense I've heard from cyclists.
Wacky,
This is a discussion forum, its about putting alternative perspectives not win/lose.
I have a foot in both camps as a driver and cyclist and will contribute here from time to time to put the cyclist's perspective. There are the odd few junctions where running a red light is safer than getting in the 'Grand Prix' start when red+amber comes up. Not many and there are plenty more where RLJ is suicidal, where it is safer it's a consequence of poor junction design. Some cycle lanes, even well segregated ones, present their own dangers - again poor design.
If a road is busy enough for a few cyclists to cause 'big problems' then it's no busines having a 60 limit.
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Bromptonaut,
While I'm happy to accept that people have different opinions and perspectives on things, There are times where an opinion is not plausable. Such as Jumping a red light, It is an absolute offence and is NOT optional and I hope more cyclists get fined for it.
I watched a program about the possibility of having special roundabouts like they use abroad, They set one up and asked cyclists and motorists to try. It segregated them and is used abroad very effectively. A couple of the cyclists said they would not use the cycle part of it as it would take longer. It is pure b***** mindedness at it's best!
If you know of any cyclists who can design cycle routes better than what is currently available I'd like to hear these ideas. I mean short of just banning cars, trucks and buses from using the roads, Because it seems to me that is what most cyclists want.
My main gripe with cyclists is they have this attitude that everyone else is wrong and yet they cannot recognise when they do the wrong thing or break the law themselves. One rule for everyone else and they do what they want.
Every time there is mention of a badly driven Lorry you sing up about tipper drivers killing cyclists, I'm not defending Lorry drivers as a mass but, You have to ask yourself the question of why this happens. While I won't say the lorry driver is never to blame, Often it takes 2 people to get something wrong to make an collision. I rode a bike too in my younger days and I'd never have gone up the inside of anything turning left, I just waited behind it until it moved off. For 2 reasons, Firstly I didn't want to die young with a horrible death and secondly because it is not any faster unless your a budding Lance Armstrong. Lorries might be slow but, they can pull away faster than most cyclists do.
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because it is not any faster unless your a budding Lance Armstrong.
Not sure people aspire to be him nowadays!
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Bromptonaut,
While I'm happy to accept that people have different opinions and perspectives on things, There are times where an opinion is not plausable. Such as Jumping a red light, It is an absolute offence and is NOT optional and I hope more cyclists get fined for it.
I understand the absolute offence point and I'v no time for people who fly through reds without discrimiantion - they deserve a FP notice. There are however odd places, the now remodelled junction of Bloomsbury way with Southampton Place was such an example, where GP type starts create a danger. At that point there were three lanes of general traffic plus a nearside bus lane. The bus lane got green 5 seconds before the cars so that routes turning right into S'oton Row could postion themselves.
Caught in the cars lanes I'd no compunction in going against the red when the bus got green so as to be out of the melee. There are two on my current commute that need a car to trigger the coils in the road - no car no green. I treat them as a give way.
I watched a program about the possibility of having special roundabouts like they use abroad, They set one up and asked cyclists and motorists to try. It segregated them and is used abroad very effectively. A couple of the cyclists said they would not use the cycle part of it as it would take longer. It is pure b***** mindedness at it's best!
If you know of any cyclists who can design cycle routes better than what is currently available I'd like to hear these ideas. I mean short of just banning cars, trucks and buses from using the roads, Because it seems to me that is what most cyclists want.
There are plenty of people who can do better than traffic engineers - see stuff on web about Blackfriars Bridge (north end) and the ongoing sagas of the so called Superhighways.
The special roundabouts work in Holland but the number of cyclists and driver awareness of them is very differnt to UK. The outside of a roundabout is not a place I would choose to be, irrespective of any dealy it imposed on my journey.
Every time there is mention of a badly driven Lorry you sing up about tipper drivers killing cyclists, I'm not defending Lorry drivers as a mass but, You have to ask yourself the question of why this happens. While I won't say the lorry driver is never to blame, Often it takes 2 people to get something wrong to make an collision. I rode a bike too in my younger days and I'd never have gone up the inside of anything turning left, I just waited behind it until it moved off. For 2 reasons, Firstly I didn't want to die young with a horrible death and secondly because it is not any faster unless your a budding Lance Armstrong. Lorries might be slow but, they can pull away faster than most cyclists do.
Most of us are well aware of the risks and have strict rules of engagement where tippers etc are involved. Don't go up the inside unless (a) you're absolutely certain it cannot move and (b) you've an escape route in case you cock up on (a). But if one of them left hooks you in moving traffic or moves over your lane while overtaking then you'll be very lucky to get out in time. There was another tipper fatality last night, once again on Cycle Superhighway 2, this time at Mile End. This route was heavily criticied by the corner at inquest on Brian Dorling and the French lass killed on a hire bike in the summer. Here, and with ordinary cycle lanes in other places the unwary particulalry it appears foreign women, are led into danger.
Another accident last night, so far classed as serious injury, involved a coach at junction of Vernon Place and S'oton Row. Again either a turnover or a nearside creep by the cyclist. The danger here maybe that it's a tight turn and the bus had to swing out, giving a misleading impression of it's intended track through the junction.
I've also found over years that first couple of weeks of GMT can be a bit hairy in London traffic.
I'd be more willing to accept blame for cyclists if more of these accidents involved buses or the other, non construction, HGV's in the capital.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 06/11/2013 at 13:22
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Motor cycles are definitely safer than bicycles in urban areas because they flow with the vehicle traffic, so no-one (usually) overtakes them and vice-versa.
Bicycles though travel adjacent to traffic lines not as part of them, often going faster or slower than the lorries, vans and cars.
It may now be time in urban areas to put cyclists centre stage as it were, so they move at the same speed as everyone else.
Then they'd sell their bikes, right?
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Motor cycles are definitely safer than bicycles in urban areas because they flow with the vehicle traffic, so no-one (usually) overtakes them and vice-versa.
While I'd agree that is commonsense I'm not sure the KSI stats would confirm it.
Bicycles though travel adjacent to traffic lines not as part of them, often going faster or slower than the lorries, vans and cars.
And cylists need experience or training to cope with that. In Central London it's usually safer to go down the outside of queues. In some streets however, Strand is an example, central refuges prevent it.
It may now be time in urban areas to put cyclists centre stage as it were, so they move at the same speed as everyone else.
Then they'd sell their bikes, right?
Apparently the next generation of Boris's Cycle Superhighways will be segregated. Those of us who use the segregated route in Tavistock Sq etc might hope they can imrove the execution.
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Bromptonaut,
Do you have any idea why so many cyclists have a 'death wish'? i.e. ride after dark without either lights or a reflective jacket. A work colleague in Cambridge yesterday mentioned his girlfriend, a woman around 30 years of age, was going to go out on her bike after dark, with no way of being seen. He told her not to go out. I think there should be an advertising campaign to remind people they need to light up. Apparently at this time of year Cambridge police hand out on the spot fines to offenders.
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Trilogy,
While I'd cavill at the phrase 'death wish' that one puzzles me too. I suspect the answer is they think like pedestrians. In lit streets you can see and be seen on foot so, they assume, same applies on a bike. Certainly seems to be case in London.
And of course in Cambridge you've got squillions of students half of whom are male, under 25, and think they're immortal anyway.
Green/yellow or for that matter pink hi-viz isn't actually much use in lit streets although they do stand out in poor daylight - grey day or under trees etc. Under orange or white sodium lights all look a washed out grey. A conventional overcoat in cream/fawn is more conspicuous.
Only lights make you stand out but not flashing as they make judging distance and track/convergence dificult for observers. Peter (TfL) Hendy is getting a kicking on cycling fora after suggesting the falshing lights on the hire bikes should be universal.
Outside street lit zones it's the retro-reflective strips on a gilet that stand out in dark together with pedal reflectors.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 06/11/2013 at 21:40
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