N/A - Electric cars | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

Thu 10 Oct 2019 22:11

N/A - Electric cars - sammy1

James Dyson announces that he has abandoned his electric car and cannot find a buyer to take on the project. Does he Know something that perhaps the major car makers are choosing to ignore?

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Thu 10 Oct 2019 22:22

N/A - Electric cars - daveyjp

He has realised his company isn't as big and all powerful as he thinks.

Honda, Toyota, VAG, Ford have slightly bigger pockets than he has.

He needs to stick to overpriced, overhyped vacuum cleaners.

Edited by daveyjp on 10/10/2019 at 22:29

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Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:31

N/A - Electric cars - Terry W

It's not just about not being big enough, but a lack of knowledge in key areas which even the most sophisticated vacuums don't engender:

battery technology - that which powers a vacuum for an hour is probably vastly different to one that can move 1500kg 200miles or more.
Car suspension and steering for a 1500kg vehicle is wildly different to a ball or a few casters under a 15kg vacuum
legislative requirements - I suspect the average car manufacturer has a pile (if printed) several foot high with which they need to comply and potentially different in each market Suspect vacuums are not quite so demanding
manufacturing skills - the average Dyson vacuum probably is similar in complexity to a car heater. But cars have engines, gearboxes, suspension, steering, brakes, diagnostic systems etc etc

He may have some wonderful ideas and being in the market early could be a winner - but it is far more likely to be a money pit competing against established car manufacturers, and if driverless happens, add microsoft, google, etc to the list.

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Fri 11 Oct 2019 09:34

N/A - Electric cars - jc2

As someone who was involved with complying with legislation for a major automotive manufacturer,the EU was a great step forward.Prior to the EU,every European country had different legal requirements-usually quite minor-Austria,for example,required the rear number plate light wired into the ignition.A small engine manufacturer offered me a fortune if I could get the European countries to agree the definitionof a MOPED.At that time they were producing thirty different combinations of 49cc. engine/gearboxes.

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Sat 12 Oct 2019 19:26

N/A - Electric cars - Engineer Andy

It's not just about not being big enough, but a lack of knowledge in key areas which even the most sophisticated vacuums don't engender:

battery technology - that which powers a vacuum for an hour is probably vastly different to one that can move 1500kg 200miles or more.

Car suspension and steering for a 1500kg vehicle is wildly different to a ball or a few casters under a 15kg vacuum

legislative requirements - I suspect the average car manufacturer has a pile (if printed) several foot high with which they need to comply and potentially different in each market Suspect vacuums are not quite so demanding

manufacturing skills - the average Dyson vacuum probably is similar in complexity to a car heater. But cars have engines, gearboxes, suspension, steering, brakes, diagnostic systems etc etc

He may have some wonderful ideas and being in the market early could be a winner - but it is far more likely to be a money pit competing against established car manufacturers, and if driverless happens, add microsoft, google, etc to the list.

As Elon Musk is now finding out, it ain't all about marketing, styling and shoehorning in others' products and 'pow' you've got a car that is reliable, long-lasting, cheap to buy and that brings in the $$$. Decades of R&D generally about cars makes developing a new type of powertrain far easier.

Only when the tech is completely revolutionary and on a smaller scale can anyone hope to compete with the Big Boys, and then you have to be very lucky to be able to attract the right engineering talent and especially sufficient financial backing over the long term, because such tech often takes a LONG time to develop, with lots of bumps in the proverbial road, which needs large amounts of money and patience.

Dyson was lucky that he developed his vacuum tech before the current climate of the big multinationals and bacnks essentially stffling almost all small-scale 'blokes in shedes'/small firm-based entrepreneurship/innovation. Probably the reason why 'Dragon's Den' exists - barely anyone is now willing to back/bankroll any novel project from individuals or small-medium sized firms.

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Sun 13 Oct 2019 00:04

N/A - Electric cars - alan1302

Dyson was lucky that he developed his vacuum tech before the current climate of the big multinationals and bacnks essentially stffling almost all small-scale 'blokes in shedes'/small firm-based entrepreneurship/innovation. Probably the reason why 'Dragon's Den' exists - barely anyone is now willing to back/bankroll any novel project from individuals or small-medium sized firms.

Have blokes in sheds ever had an easy time of it? Most inventions ended up being pushed by larger companies to get them into the market place.

James Dyson is very much the exception and had the right product even if it's not as revolutionary as made out as it was based in an already existing idea.

Dragon's Den exists for entertainment purposes only.

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Sun 13 Oct 2019 17:53

N/A - Electric cars - Engineer Andy

Dyson was lucky that he developed his vacuum tech before the current climate of the big multinationals and bacnks essentially stffling almost all small-scale 'blokes in shedes'/small firm-based entrepreneurship/innovation. Probably the reason why 'Dragon's Den' exists - barely anyone is now willing to back/bankroll any novel project from individuals or small-medium sized firms.

Have blokes in sheds ever had an easy time of it? Most inventions ended up being pushed by larger companies to get them into the market place.

James Dyson is very much the exception and had the right product even if it's not as revolutionary as made out as it was based in an already existing idea.

Dragon's Den exists for entertainment purposes only.

Bear in mind that in the 1970s, many Formula 1 teams operated out of 'sheds' (and why British-based teams were so successful) until big money ruined the sport by essentially making R&D the purview of the big car producers.

Even today when someone comes up with a genuine innovation, the big corporations mainly just buy them out immediately. I've noticed in many fields where big leaps in tech have essentially stopped in favour of just little improvements which cost little but they charge a lot more for.

My point about Dragon's Den was that there is almost no way someone can get an innovative product off the ground without effectively selling out to a major corporation. Banks are now way too risk-averse in this regards (wanting a dead cert only) and often have very little knowledge to be able to decide (probably why they are risk-averse) what;s a good bet.

I saw this in my own line of work in Building Services Engineering in the Construction Industry - well before the 2008 financial crash, the big firms were hoovering up the small ones to grow, rather than doing so organically. This, in my view, has stiffled innovation and best practice (including in management, not just engineering design) and has lead to an industry of never-mind-the-quality-feel-the-width firms and staff. And was one of the reasons I left the industry 2 years ago.

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Sun 13 Oct 2019 09:42

N/A - Electric cars - madf

"Dyson was lucky that he developed his vacuum tech before the current climate of the big multinationals and bacnks essentially stffling almost all small-scale 'blokes in shedes'/small firm-based entrepreneurship/innovation. Probably the reason why 'Dragon's Den' exists - barely anyone is now willing to back/bankroll any novel project from individuals or small-medium sized firms."

Err I remember Ron Hickman's Workmate.. Only when adopted by Black and Decker did it sell in high volumes..(I still have a 1980 one in regular use)..

To make things economically you need R&D facilities and modern manufacturing.

Dyson would have had to invest $5 to $10B to bring an electric car to market - any volumes less than 1 million a year would be uneconomic unless v high priced. See Tesla...Dyson talked of investing "only" $2B...

He was not wealthy enough to invest on his own...

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Fri 11 Oct 2019 11:06

N/A - Electric cars - Bromptonaut

James Dyson announces that he has abandoned his electric car and cannot find a buyer to take on the project. Does he Know something that perhaps the major car makers are choosing to ignore?

However technologically 'better' the Dyson car might have been he's a newcomer in a market overloaded with mature manufacturers. HE's no history, no dealer network no supply/spares chain and no shared costs across ranges.

Will be interesting to see if any technological advances are good enough to be licensed out to established car makers.

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Fri 11 Oct 2019 11:14

N/A - Electric cars - Stackman II

A visit to a car factory will inform you that the power train is a very small part of what goes in to putting a car together.

Economies of scale dictate that you need an enormous infrastructure of design, development and manufacture to get all the other bits done to sit around your electric gubbins, no matter how innovative that might be.

Now that all manufacturers from Porsche to Hyundai have electric vehicles available as part of extensive ranges why would you take a chance on buying a car built by a domestic appliance manufacturer ?

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Fri 11 Oct 2019 19:56

N/A - Electric cars - focussed

Electrolux used to make and market outboard motors in Sweden and Europe under their name, after they bought the Penta and Archimedes brands.

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Sat 12 Oct 2019 17:15

N/A - Electric cars - colinh

This must worry a lot of EV manufacturers (existing and potential) - the ending of subsidies, grants, etc, and a new tax regime:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/108123/uk-road-pricing-inquiry-planned-as-electric-cars-threaten-a-40bn-tax-black-hole

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Sat 12 Oct 2019 17:39

N/A - Electric cars - focussed

Dyson was gifted £5 million by the UK government to assist with his development of electric vehicles.

Now he has realised that what he was planning has no realistic chance of coming to fruition could the UK please have the £5 million back?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2019/10/12/dyson-facing-return-taxpayer-cash-axed-electric-car-project/

Did he blow the 5 million on his new penthouse?

It is a blow for a company which upped its headquarters to Singapore as recently as January, with Brexiteer Sir James splashing on the city-state’s most expensive penthouse flat to boot and braving criticism for abandoning the country in order to tap into the region’s growing demand for electric vehicles and technology expertise.

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Sun 13 Oct 2019 11:02

N/A - Electric cars - Sofa Spud

This must worry a lot of EV manufacturers (existing and potential) - the ending of subsidies, grants, etc, and a new tax regime:

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/108123/uk-road-pricing-inquiry-planned-as-electric-cars-threaten-a-40bn-tax-black-hole

Surely EV manufacturers would be aware that something like this would happen sooner or later since you can't easily tax the electricity people charge their cars with differently from what they use in their homes for other purposes. All the evidence points to electric cars having much lower running costs than equivalent petrol or diesel ones so road pricing might not be too much of a disincentive to go electric. Now that battery range and battery life are not seen as major stumbling blocks to going electric and the fast charging network is expanding rapidly, the only remaining disincentive is the high purchase price of EVs.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 13/10/2019 at 11:06

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Sun 13 Oct 2019 12:38

N/A - Electric cars - Falkirk Bairn

80% of the world energy (not just electricity) use comes from Coal, Oil &Gas+ Nuclear.

Coal - easily stored. Oil & Gas can be delivered by pipelines, ships, road tankers or car petrol tank. Nuclear has it's place.

Electricity

What the above all share is reliability & constant output - build a power station & all 3 can run for say 40 to 50+ years with constant maintenance.

Reducing the current 80% with guaranteed 99%+ availability?

Windmills depend on wind, Solar sunshine/light. Hydro needs High Mountains which are built in geological time scales & beyond engineering.

If we were to ditch coal/ Oil & + Nuclear - where is the energy to run a country?

You cannot have dodgy availability in the National Grid - you need a foundation of guaranteed supply to maintain the network or the Nat Grid falls over - Witness gas station going off + North Sea tripping & a good part of Eastern England & the London area were thrown into chaos - trains stopped, blackouts in homes & offices AND that was in the summer.

Bigger blackouts in winter could mean deaths of young & elderly as the gas central heating needs ignition & a pump to function.

Ditch coal oil & gas - Where is the energy to come from to run modern life throughout UK, Europe & the rest of the world.

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Sun 13 Oct 2019 13:39

N/A - Electric cars - corax

Ditch coal oil & gas - Where is the energy to come from to run modern life throughout UK, Europe & the rest of the world.

Keep burning coal, oil and gas - what is going to happen to crop production when the climate becomes more changeable than it is already? How will millions of people eat if food prices go up due to limited availability?

What if oil starts running out and rockets in price? Considering some of the extremely volatile places it comes from.

None of this would be a problem if the human ape hadn't kept multiplying across the land and taking resources without a thought to sustainability.

Edited by corax on 13/10/2019 at 13:43

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Sun 13 Oct 2019 13:54

N/A - Electric cars - gordonbennet

None of this would be a problem if the human ape hadn't kept multiplying across the land and taking resources without a thought to sustainability.

population explosion mainly across the third world is the real danger to all of us, a subject which only the very brave and those who can speak freely will talk about except in pc platitudes.

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Sun 13 Oct 2019 19:59

N/A - Electric cars - John F

James Dyson's electric car is like Jim Ratcliffe's anachronistic Land Rover look-alike - a rich man's vanity project; unlikely to succeed. I suspect the biggest selling electric car of the future will be a well advertised but imperfectly designed product of a large manufacturer, a bit like the best selling VW Beetle was with its noisy engine and fuel tank in the wrong place, its pathetic heater, stupid pedals, terrible handling and impractical load carrying capability, all endured because of its impressive reliability. I am in Irvine CA at present staying with my son and surprised to see fewer EVs than I thought there would be by now in this wealthy modern US city, especially as 'gas' is now more than a dollar per litre. Also pleased to see that his 18 year old VW Passat 2.8 auto estate (same reliable powertrain as my old A6) is still going strong at 155,000 miles - with original cambelt as far as we know - having survived me driving it over from New Jersey laden to the gunnels with his chattels a couple of years ago.

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Mon 14 Oct 2019 00:17

N/A - Electric cars - sammy1

I am led to believe that EVs have less component parts to go wrong. The basics the electric motor and transmission should be more reliable so if Dyson could not get these basics right he was on to a loser. A chassis, brakes etc should have been no problem for him to solve Apparently he did have a finished car but obviously thought better of it.

As for climate change there will be countries or parts of countries that will be winners and losers if the forecasts are to be believed. It will not happen overnight and will be very slow and on going. The task is enormous if not impossible and I suspect a lot of countries are forward planning for stronger coastal defences or indeed population movement. Wales have already given notice to one community at risk of a possible rise in sea level.

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Mon 14 Oct 2019 13:24

N/A - Electric cars - Engineer Andy

I suspect part of the problem for Dyson was that, unlike with his vaccuum cleaners and a few other products, he didn't have a unique IP for his concept design - something that would set the car well above all others in terms of its design features, e.g. a new battery system that was far more efficient (including lighter) so that it could match or even better ICE cars on range, and/or have some new tech to reduce 90%+ charging to match that to fill up a car with petrol/diesel, or the drastically reduce the cost of production for the same build quality as existing cars.

All he'd be doing is going up against firms with 10x (or much more) the R&D and marketing budgets, never mind him having to establish from scratch all the R&D and manufacturing infrastructure and staff - they might use electric motors, but they aren't the same to design as a vaccuum cleaner or hand drier!

I suspect also he saw the money pit that is Tesla and thought 'this could be me in 5 years' and thought better of it, as he could easily lose his entire forture in such a venture, especially as Tesla is IMHO not a financially stable firm and could be due a big fall in the short to medium term, especially now that the mainstream rivals are getting their act together.

Setting up a car firm from scratch is a huge undertaking, rather like going into F1, and we've seen how many millionairres and billionairres have lost it all trying to buy success quickly, especially in today's corporate-controlled world.

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Mon 14 Oct 2019 14:20

N/A - Electric cars - Terry W

Whether you regard climate change as project fear or a sound projection is unimportant.

We know the UK accounts for small part of global emissions, but technolgies and solutions adopted could leave UK a global leader in these areas rather that following the crowd.

Coal, gas, oil are finite resources

They will get more expensive as the low hanging fruit is exploited and ultimately run out.

Nuclear can provide base load power. Goverments must find a way to fast-track planning and construction.to reduce 20 year timescales between plan and power delivery.

Wind and PV power is variable. But if generation is dispersed but linked over a wide geographic area the risk of major downtime is more limited. This becomes a risk factor, not a reason not to do.

We also need a government prepared to do that which many will find unpopular. Sadly I have little confidence in their ability to put moral integrity above political expediency:

all new build homes and commercial to be compliant with best standards of energy efficiency. Fit PV and rainwater water recovery systems
tax domestic energy consumption. Balance to books by reducing income tax accordingly It will make people think more carefully about how they use energy
use EV batteries for back up power stores when wind and sun absent

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Mon 14 Oct 2019 13:55

N/A - Electric cars - madf

"Bigger blackouts in winter could mean deaths of young & elderly as the gas central heating needs ignition & a pump to function."

I have a cheap standby generator bought to provide 240V for the pump and electric controls...

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Mon 14 Oct 2019 14:05

N/A - Electric cars - gordonbennet

One wonders if Dyson has got a whiff of what/when is planned for the replacement of lost fuel and VED duties as electric cars roll out, i have a sneaky feeling this shift to electric only cars isn't going to be quite as overwhelming as predicted.

Dyson may well have done the right thing here in more ways than one.

Good point about the genny Madf, i must dig my little Honda unit out of the shed and fire it up, it'll keep the central heating running.

Purely out of interest couple of the factories i go to have had power shortages which have played havoc with their electronic control systems, i can see a new industry springing up with companies fitting large standby Diesel generators, will we see a return to large companies generating their own more reliable electricity in due course, for years my late brother ran the independent electricity generating stations for one of the national banks in that London, more reliable supplies than the grid then let alone what the future may hold.

Edited by gordonbennet on 14/10/2019 at 14:10

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