B Max - Valuation - argybargy

Following on from the thread elsewhere about the EH car buying service.

Just done the online valuation request and an email came back within five minutes with what I think is a fair price. Nowhere near retail price or full value as a private sale, but as regulars will know, this wasn't a wise buy.

Given the history of this model and its troublesome gearbox, I doubt whether selling privately is a particularly hopeful route, and my original plan to take it back to the dealer whence it came would almost certainly result in a much lower trade in value than EH have offered me. Nor am I in a position to trade in at a dealer for a new car, so it would have to be "used low mileage" again.

Obviously they have to see the car first to make a final offer, but I have to admit, I'm tempted. The car is clean, having had oil change and new front brakes and tyres since I bought it, not to mention a brand new clutch via another dealer.

Only problem being Christmas coming up and the need to buy quickly to replace it. If I do explore this option further I'd be likely to get a temporary runabout then look for something more permanent in the New Year.

Therefore might be best to leave it till January and do the whole thing in one go, with just one change of car to something I can keep for a few years. Can't imagine the offer will be reduced by more than a couple of hundred quid between now and January.

What would others do? I've thought about this issue long and hard since buying the B Max and its taught me a great deal about the wisdom of doing research. I doubt whether I'd make a similar mistake again, and would most certainly take serious regard of any advice offered to me here in good faith.

B Max - Valuation - SLO76
Personally I’d offload it. Your valuation will stand for a period of time (not sure how long with EH) so you’ll have some time to look for an alternative. Depending on budget and needs I like the Mazda 2/3 and Honda Jazz Mk III and Civic when thinking small auto.

A cheap temporary motor may be an option but I’d probably just stick with the Ford until you find something else then offload through EH to allow a better negotiation stance on the next car.
B Max - Valuation - argybargy
Personally I’d offload it. Your valuation will stand for a period of time (not sure how long with EH) so you’ll have some time to look for an alternative. Depending on budget and needs I like the Mazda 2/3 and Honda Jazz Mk III and Civic when thinking small auto. A cheap temporary motor may be an option but I’d probably just stick with the Ford until you find something else then offload through EH to allow a better negotiation stance on the next car.

Thanks, SLO. Valuation is valid till December 9th, so I've got a week or so to think about it. Just done the WBAC valuation also, and they offered 300 quid less.

A relative has taken pity on me and offered to top up whatever we get from EH to make sure we get a suitable replacement, so the options look fairly healthy at present.

Small auto it would have to be, as my wife simply can't tolerate my gear changes. It would need good supportive front seats too, which is something the B Max does have.

One problem is that having moved away from family there isn't really anyone who could ferry me around if I shed the Ford and need to go looking for a replacement, so I'd probably need to hire a car, with all the potential ramifications for getting ripped off on someone else's damage etc. Unless I can find something next week, get them to hold it on a deposit and then do the EH thing in order to complete the sale.

Edited by argybargy on 02/12/2017 at 11:48

B Max - Valuation - RobJP

SLO is the real person to reply to this, but car values - month by month - are a funny thing.

At this time of year it's really quiet, so you'd expect to be able to pick up a bargain if you were buying. But it doesn't work like that, because the garages know that as soon as Christmas day is over, the sales will skyrocket. So they don't want to offer you £500 off a car right now, when they'll be able to sell it for full whack in 4 weeks time.

Again, they're currently stocking up for that January rush. So when you sell, prices are a bit more keen, because they've got to be competitive for decent stock, or else you'll just go elsewhere and sell it.

Most people don't come onto sites like this and search out the pitfalls with particular cars. They've decided they want a red Golf (for example) and that's it. They'll buy one.

A friend of mine did exactly that a few years ago. Her (very) old Polo was at the stage of falling apart, and she happened to see a Fiesta in that 'electric blue' that Ford do. Loved it, and that was her mind made up. Fortunately, it's been perfectly reliable - she got a 1.25 petrol with a manual box.

EDIT : SLO got here first !

Edited by RobJP on 02/12/2017 at 11:40

B Max - Valuation - argybargy

Cheers anyhow, Rob. Thought provoking response as always.

Edit: Its a real shame because apart from the gearbox, the B Max is comfortable, spacious for a small auto ( the boot is small but the back seats and passenger seat fold flat to give plenty of loading space) and has an excellent engine that pulls like something bigger.

But the facts of the case speak for themselves, and have done ever since I bought the car.

Edited by argybargy on 02/12/2017 at 11:57

B Max - Valuation - SLO76
December does tend to be a bit slow so sales staff will be eager to do a deal. One trick though in a situation like yours however is to let them quote you a nice juicy finance deal then negotiate a discount without mentioning you’re a cash buyer. The dealer then believes there’s a fat finance commission involved and will generally be more liberal with discount. Then when you finalise the deal you inform them that you’ll organise your own funds. Legally they can’t force you to pay using their finance and can’t alter the deal. Get it in writing first.
B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

Unless of course the salesman is a complete novice or forgets his training or past experience and doesn't ask outright at the beginning of the negotiation how the customer intends to fund the purchase.......which is highly unlikely.....right?

What questions do you ask at the start?

Edited by TedCrilly on 02/12/2017 at 12:44

B Max - Valuation - RobJP

Unless of course the salesman is a complete novice or forgets his training or past experience and doesn't ask outright at the beginning of the negotiation how the customer intends to fund the purchase.......which is highly unlikely.....right?

What questions do you ask at the start?

If they did ask, you state that you will be buying on finance.

If it's a salesman like 99% of them (and very unlike SLO) then he's used to bare-faced lies, and tells them every single day to customers. 'One retired lady owner'. 'Carefully maintained by a retired doctor', etc.

Did it myself for a friend last year. She was after an X-Trail, so I (acting as her 'partner') did the negotiations, mainly because the saleman was one of those horrible people who treat women in a car dealership as a victim. But he'd treat me seriously, as an equal. She had the money to buy it (along with a bank loan), and she took out the finance to get an additional £2k manufacturer discount that was only available if finance was being taken. The Nissan finance was at 10%, however.

So she completed on the deal and signed all the paperwork, and then got out her phone and called Nissan Finance to cancel the agreement - whilst still sitting opposite the salesman !

Oh, the look on his face was priceless, when he realised I was just the puppet, and she was calling the shots.

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

What legislation is in place that says a dealer has to honour an agreed self finance price for instead cash, if the buyer changes his mind and more importantly the terms?

True the customer has the right to cancel a credit agreement but I am curious to know why the dealer then HAS to accept a cash offer for the same price on the same vehicle when the Ts &Cs have changed, as suggested by SLO.

Never happened in my day. There was a lower limit prics for in house finance and one for cash. Quite often the finance kickback was used to offset and lower the price in an attempt to bolster sales and gain the more lucrative manufacturer bonuses. You may loose £500 from the finance company but that £500 could get you £15k from the manufacturer. At certain times cars were sold with negligible markups just to hit the bonuses.

Have things changed since I retired?

Is there now some regulation in place that on the face of it is heavily biased against the dealer?

As far as I am aware a dealer is not legally obliged to sell you any car, under any terms even at the full advertised price. As for getting one up on the dealer, its bunkum. If he is not happy with the returns he won't sell you the car to start with.......period.

Could you point me in the direction of a reliable source that confirms this matching finance/cash price legislation please.

B Max - Valuation - RT

What legislation is in place that says a dealer has to honour an agreed self finance price for instead cash, if the buyer changes his mind and more importantly the terms?

True the customer has the right to cancel a credit agreement but I am curious to know why the dealer then HAS to accept a cash offer for the same price on the same vehicle when the Ts &Cs have changed, as suggested by SLO.

Never happened in my day. There was a lower limit prics for in house finance and one for cash. Quite often the finance kickback was used to offset and lower the price in an attempt to bolster sales and gain the more lucrative manufacturer bonuses. You may loose £500 from the finance company but that £500 could get you £15k from the manufacturer. At certain times cars were sold with negligible markups just to hit the bonuses.

Have things changed since I retired?

Is there now some regulation in place that on the face of it is heavily biased against the dealer?

As far as I am aware a dealer is not legally obliged to sell you any car, under any terms even at the full advertised price. As for getting one up on the dealer, its bunkum. If he is not happy with the returns he won't sell you the car to start with.......period.

Could you point me in the direction of a reliable source that confirms this matching finance/cash price legislation please.

The switch from finance to cash is done after the deal has been agreed and processed - the customer pays the finance company, not the dealer - if the finance is cancelled within the 14 day cooling off period, it's usual for the dealer not to get any commission or fee and probably means the salesman gets nothing either.

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

Correct!

But lets back to the issue in hand!

Where does it say if you agree a price via finance, and the customer suddenly says nah.....I will pay cash, do you as the dealer HAVE to match the finance price?

B Max - Valuation - RT

Correct!

But lets back to the issue in hand!

Where does it say if you agree a price via finance, and the customer suddenly says nah.....I will pay cash, do you as the dealer HAVE to match the finance price?

Dismiss the method if you wish - it works for me as I've long been aware that telling the salesman you want to pay cash puts the buyer at a disadvantage to start with.

I've no idea on the finer legalities, I just like to get the best deal possible.

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

The best deal possible?

Isn't that exactly what the dealer wants you to think when you drive off?

B Max - Valuation - RT

The best deal possible?

Isn't that exactly what the dealer wants you to think when you drive off?

Of course - that's why I have no qualms about changing the deal afterwards, as long as it's to my advantage.

B Max - Valuation - SLO76

What legislation is in place that says a dealer has to honour an agreed self finance price for instead cash, if the buyer changes his mind and more importantly the terms?

True the customer has the right to cancel a credit agreement but I am curious to know why the dealer then HAS to accept a cash offer for the same price on the same vehicle when the Ts &Cs have changed, as suggested by SLO.

Never happened in my day. There was a lower limit prics for in house finance and one for cash. Quite often the finance kickback was used to offset and lower the price in an attempt to bolster sales and gain the more lucrative manufacturer bonuses. You may loose £500 from the finance company but that £500 could get you £15k from the manufacturer. At certain times cars were sold with negligible markups just to hit the bonuses.

Have things changed since I retired?

Is there now some regulation in place that on the face of it is heavily biased against the dealer?

As far as I am aware a dealer is not legally obliged to sell you any car, under any terms even at the full advertised price. As for getting one up on the dealer, its bunkum. If he is not happy with the returns he won't sell you the car to start with.......period.

Could you point me in the direction of a reliable source that confirms this matching finance/cash price legislation please.

In a bid to limit excessive surcharge fees, the Consumer Rights (Payment Surcharges) Regulations 2012 set limits on the amount merchants can charge when their customers pay by credit or debit card or cash. Specifically, it says: “A trader must not charge consumers, in respect of a given means of payment, fees that exceed the costs borne by the trader for the use of that means.”

Edited by SLO76 on 02/12/2017 at 17:56

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

Who mentioned credit cards?.

B Max - Valuation - SLO76
“As far as I am aware a dealer is not legally obliged to sell you any car, under any terms even at the full advertised price. As for getting one up on the dealer, its bunkum. If he is not happy with the returns he won't sell you the car to start with.......period.”

As a salesman you’ll surely know that there’s a great deal of variation deal to deal? One negotiated with an informed buyer might not yield such a high return as another but if there’s a profit in it it’ll usually be signed up. Your suggestion that negotiation is futile and that the dealer will always win is rather odd.
B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

I wasn't a salesman, I was assistant dealer principle when I retired.

I didn't say negotiation was futile, I said if the dealer wasn't happy with the return he wouldnt agree to a sale.

Now....about this claim regarding obligations to match finance prices with cash prices. Can you quote the legislation please?

B Max - Valuation - SLO76

I wasn't a salesman, I was assistant dealer principle when I retired.

I didn't say negotiation was futile, I said if the dealer wasn't happy with the return he wouldnt agree to a sale.

Now....about this claim regarding obligations to match finance prices with cash prices. Can you quote the legislation please?

Believe this is what you’re looking for www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/3110/made

Edited by SLO76 on 02/12/2017 at 18:50

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

No its not, try again.

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

Or point out the relevant section.

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

Imagine this scenario.

Dealer sells car at cost price but relies on finance kickback for his profit.

Customer backs out and insists on paying cost price by cash

Dealer is then legally obliged to sell car at cost price and makes zilch on the car and a loss when his overheads are taken out. Are you really saying that is what the law of the land demands?

If it was the case every punter would be onto it and all the dealers in the country would have gone down the pan years ago.

If you agree to buy on finance, then pull out and insist on cash you are changing the terms of the contract and as such the dealer is free to act accordingly.

Edited by TedCrilly on 02/12/2017 at 19:10

B Max - Valuation - SLO76

Imagine this scenario.

Dealer sells car at cost price but relies on finance kickback for his profit.

Customer backs out and insists on paying cost price by cash

Dealer is then legally obliged to sell car at cost price and makes zilch on the car and a loss when his overheads are taken out. Are you really saying that is what the law of the land demands?

If it was the case every punter would be onto it and all the dealers in the country would have gone down the pan years ago.

If you agree to buy on finance, then pull out and insist on cash you are changing the terms of the contract and as such the dealer is free to act accordingly.

Do so and not only are you in breach of law but will also lose the customer. It’s just one of those risks Ted, be wary of relying too much on finance commission on any deal. Don’t quote a price you can’t commit to if the punter then finds their own finance. Even before it was law the trading standards took a dim view of this and our company policy was never to renege on a deal in the rare occasions where this happened as said (very) unhappy punter will tell everyone who’ll listen thus the negative publicity will cost far more than any lost finance commission.
B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

Hogwash!

B Max - Valuation - SLO76

Or point out the relevant section.

4. A trader must not charge consumers, in respect of the use of a given means of payment, fees that exceed the cost borne by the trader for the use of that means.
B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

The term being....."fees that exceed the cost Bourne by the trader"

Is it going in yet?

Who is providing the money? The dealer or the finance company?

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

Have you ever wondered why dealers rely on 3rd parties to provide the finance? Or why manufacturers set up separate companies to provide finance?

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

Are costs and reasonable profit the same thing or something different?

And can I point out that so far you haven't directly answered a single question

B Max - Valuation - TedCrilly

People forget legislation works both ways. You order a blue car and red car turns up and everyone shouts "Breach of contract"

You tell the dealer you want a finance deal and agree on one then suddenly say you want a cash deal and expect the same terms saying ..."I can breach the contract but you cant so tough luck, hand it over"

Don't make me laugh.!!!

Edited by TedCrilly on 02/12/2017 at 19:48

B Max - Valuation - SLO76

Are costs and reasonable profit the same thing or something different?

And can I point out that so far you haven't directly answered a single question

I’ve linked the legislation and even went as far as quoting directly. I’ve personally had experience of it on a number of deals I’ve signed up and I’ve used it as a tactic on deals I’ve negotiated on behalf of others without one case of a dealer reneging. I’ll leave you to your own devices on this as it’s clear you and I disagree here and no amount of evidence or debate will change your view. I’ll continue to offer advice to people seeking to get the best deal for themselves at the expense of the dealer.
B Max - Valuation - argybargy

Ta very much for that second post, SLO. I saw the posts on the other EH thread; the ones about taking out finance, then cancelling within the cooling off period and paying full whack by another method, thereby still benefiting from the discount.

Just looked at a few examples of the Jazz on Trader. A fair number of lowish mileage cars there within 50 miles radius of North Wales, mostly in the Manchester area. I don't want to travel too far, not least because I'd be putting more miles on this car.

Does the Jazz have any known weaknesses? Not looked at the Mazdas yet, but Civic autos within our price range (8 grand at a stretch) are relatively thin on the ground.

Edited by argybargy on 02/12/2017 at 12:54

B Max - Valuation - madf

If buting an auto Jazz avioid the automated manuals and go for the CVT auto post 2011.

B Max - Valuation - badbusdriver

I'd be inclined to stick with the B max till after the new year. Like you, i don't see any reason why the price you have been offered now would change much in a couple of months.

I also don't think you should write off trying to sell it yourself though. As Rob says, most people don't do any research whatsoever on a car they are thinking of buying. If they like the look of it, they buy it, simple as!. Also, as you know, even those who do come on to the site are not neccessarily going to heed what they are told(!).

In addition to the candidates already put forward, i would also suggest the toyota yaris. Not quite as spacious (or versatile) as the jazz, but still decent enough. Plus that legendary toyota reliability.

Finally, if you decided to get something cheaper to run for a year or two, you could do an awful lot worse than the B max's predecessor, the fusion. My wife and i had one for 3 years from 2005-2008, a 1.4 petrol. Absolutely cracking little car and much better than the motoring press give it credit for. It shares a lot of the attributes of the B max. Higher driving position, decent space for 4/5 adults, and a bigger boot than the B max. The 1.6 petrol auto has (i believe) the same engine as your B max, but with a torque converter auto (the 1.4 auto was an automated manual). There are quite a few low miles 1.6 auto's kicking about, such as this:

www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20171017037...1

It may be slightly outside your 50 mile radius though, i don't know exactly where you are so i just picked a random North Wales postcode, in this case, Colwyn Bay!.

B Max - Valuation - SLO76

If buting an auto Jazz avioid the automated manuals and go for the CVT auto post 2011.

I’d second this. Avoid the horrid I-shift, it’s just Honda’s version of Powershift/DSG. The later CVT is fine if fluid changes are kept up to date so look for one with a full Honda history and call the servicing dealer to check this has been carried out. To be honest though I don’t really rate the Mk II, it’s dynamically rather drab but it is certainly reliable. The Mk III is a much improved car in every way but you’ll struggle to find one much below £10k yet.
B Max - Valuation - argybargy

Thanks again to those still contributing to the topic originally posted.

I certainly don't want anything even approaching the Powershift, so will take the advice about avoiding the I-shift. Can I take it that Jazz autos registered 2012-2015 will be CVT?

BBD, thanks for your advice about leaving this till the New Year, putting it up for private sale and hoping to find someone as daft as I was in July. Noted also re the Fusion, but its not a car I find particularly attractive, whatever its other attributes. I've more or less decided that our next car has to last at least three years (as the B Max should have done), after which there's going to be a significant change in our finances which should put us in a position to buy something nearly new. So the "stop gap" option has rather taken a back seat.

TBH, I think I'd rather do the deed sooner rather than later, and hit 2018 with a few things in my rear view mirror. We've made an appointment at our local EH tomorrow, and having noticed that they have a number of Jazz's at their dealerships around the country, if the offer quoted in their email is maintained once they've inspected the car, I might arrange to test drive one of theirs and if suitable, do the deal on one site.

Edited by argybargy on 03/12/2017 at 19:18

B Max - Valuation - madf

". Can I take it that Jazz autos registered 2012-2015 will be CVT?"

Yes: Changes of gear will be imperceptible with no jerking of any sort...(so not like any automated manual)

Our jazz was bought 6 months old in 2012 . It has been faultless - as all new cars should beJ

Edited by madf on 03/12/2017 at 20:28

B Max - Valuation - badbusdriver

According to the honest john review under model history, the jazz lost the i shift in favour of the cvt from early 2011. Weirdly though the only engines mentioned at launch were a 100PS 1.3 or a 120PS 1.5, neither of which featured in the UK version?. The UK cars came with a 90PS 1.2 or a 100PS 1.4, though i think 1.2 was manual gearbox only. It may not be a factor, especially given the post on exploding sunroofs elsewhere, but the top of the range EX version came with the panoramic glass roof as standard.

I was somewhat dissapointed to find out that is no longer the case with the current jazz, as we have an EX.........

:-(

Hey ho, still a brilliant car though!

B Max - Valuation - argybargy

Thanks again to you both.

Another change of mind overnight. Going to wait for a few days until the initial rush of enthusiasm for changing the car which was generated by the surprisingly generous EH valuation has worn off, then I can look at the whole picture with a more dispassionate, and hopefully wiser eye.

Not many Jazz's available in my price range (which has now shrunk to nearer 7k than 8k due to a change of circumstances) within a 50 mile radius of this part of Flintshire, and although EH have a few on different sites around the country they would have to be moved to Chester for my perusal, costing 49 quid a pop. In any case, few of those are low mileage CVT autos with the 100ps engine. So not an easy job to find the right car.

Going to ring the indy that sold me the B Max and ask whether he might be able to source a Jazz and do part ex, and then mention the EH valuation figure, of course.

I've been warned about Honda parts prices, but presumably this would tend only to apply to consumables because the Jazz is likely to be a reliable car.

Edit: EH have also told me that once they've seen the car in the metal and their price is set in stone, they would hold it for a week which should give me time to find something else.

Edited by argybargy on 04/12/2017 at 09:58

B Max - Valuation - argybargy

I rang the indy from whence our Ford came and he promised that with a bit of notice he could source a Jazz, or whatever replacement we require, and that he would give us more in part ex for our B Max than the EH valuation. So we'll leave it for now and do that in the New Year.

He reckons the B Max is easier to "get into" than the Jazz, the latter being less like an MPV with the seats lower down, and that yes, its an excellent car. Oh, and that the Jazz tends to be expensive, something that I have noticed. In the meantime we'll find one and take it for a test drive.

Thanks again all for advice and other contributions.

Edited by argybargy on 04/12/2017 at 11:32

B Max - Valuation - madf

"'ve been warned about Honda parts prices, but presumably this would tend only to apply to consumables because the Jazz is likely to be a reliable car."

My experience is that there are on-line Honda dealers (Cox for example who discount by 20%) and LOTS of non OE parts. I used Brembo pads when the old ones were worn at 29k miles.. fronts were sub £30 delivered via ECP (and offers) vs c £60 for Honda OE.. They work very well.

Edited by madf on 04/12/2017 at 12:02

B Max - Valuation - badbusdriver

If you are not that far from Chester argybargy, this very low miles example being sold privately might be worth a look?

www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20171024060...1

B Max - Valuation - argybargy

If you are not that far from Chester argybargy, this very low miles example being sold privately might be worth a look?

www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/20171024060...1

Thanks, BBD. I did spot that one but set it aside because I'm a bit reluctant to buy privately. Certainly could be worth giving them a call and asking about the car, even if only to take it for a test drive and get a feel for the brand. And if I do like it, as you say its low miles and not much money.

And thanks also, madf, for the info re parts prices.

 

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