i know its not ideal but if a diesel hasnt been started for a while and its been stood under a sack cloth then i give them a bit of easy start
its hard
its cruel
but sometimes its the only way
up to you mind.caveat umpar
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Since Gloplugs take around 12-15 Amps EACH the chances are they are protected by something bigger than a single ordinary fuse, eg a fusible link embedded in the cable or wiring loom Look in the BoL .
As suggested check for 12v at the Gloplugs at start up first before trouble shooting. Listen for the controller relay clicking in? Altho this may be fed from 2 separate (ie one low current supply via ignition sw) and main feed.
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pmh (was peter)
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ok team. many thanks for your replies.
i didnt mention, that yes, i have checked for a supply at the glo plug feed eye on cylinder 2 (2nd one in from flywheel end), and there is none.
Havent checked the fuse box with the more meaty looking fuses in the engine bay. That could be it!! :-)
Really hope i havent gotta start untangling the wiring loom to check for inline fuses, that wood be an deleted. Will check the bigger fuses first. its gotta be a general thing like that then, not just 1 faulty glo plug or even 4.
Cant hear the relay at present, so its not the fact that the dash light has gone.
Oh and yeah, uncle advised me on the easy start thing, and it does nearly start it, but its not enough on its own it would appear.
Cheers dudes, and keep yer fingers crossed, youre all legends!!
Goose.
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These are near impossible to start without glowplugs. Our old D Turbo had two pop and it would take over a minute to get it started in the mornings, and that was with two working.
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
97 Ford Fiesta 1.4 16v Chicane (for sale)
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check the big fuses next to the battery for a fuse to the control box
you should be able to put a test bulb on the glow plug rail to actually see if you have power
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have some one spray easy start in the intake as you are turning it over and it should start on easy start alone ,carefull with easy start and glowplugs or you might be pre igniting.also if you slacken an injector pipe it might help it to fire up
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id say you've damaged the glowplug relay, it mounts on the back of the battery tray and is a black rectangle box. to check you could remove the live feed to the glowplug rail, put a jump lead on one of the glow plugs(the live will spread as there all linked via the other wire) then the other end on the + terminal wait 5 seconds or so then turn it over and hopefully it will go
chris
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Cheers for that Thomp.
Think that is the next mission. Although i did swap my relay box for girlfriends 306 P Reg 1.9TD at the weekend to try it and still nothing. But good call on running a feed straight to the glo plugs just to get her started for the first time.
Was reading in the "book of lies" last night and there is also a "All or nothing" component in the starter circuit. i think its the smaller black box bolted onto the right/passenger side of the engine bay behind the battery box. Will swap this with the girlfriends tonight to try and eliminate that.
Checked currents in wiring last night, and there is none leaving the Glo Plug control box, and since i tested the car with my girlfirends, it would appear this is not the problem source.
I also looked in the engine fuse box, the 2x40 and 60 amp fuses are unbroken. there are a few smaller ones in a smaller enclosed box, also ok. There were however two small modules, one yellow one black, that plugged into this box. Again i will try the girlfriends similar things tonight. Hopefully one of these 3 unknowns will become apparent tonight.
I also connected up the water expansion tank last night, wondering if nothing would work if something was unplugged, but no difference apart from the dam car telling me it had no water...which i already know!!!
One other thing...i have 2 plugs on the wiring loom without a home, one 2 or 3 pin yellow plug, and another bigger black one. both are also tied up on the girlfs 306, so i have done the same on mine...there is no where to plugs these plugs that i can see...but unused plugs are always a concern when the thing isnt working....
Cheers again all, great info from ya.
{sarcastic comments regarding swearing policy of this site removed - DD}
Adios, Goose.
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if it doesnt start with easy start sprayed in to it whether your glow plugs work or not doesnt matter ,timing and compression being ok it will or should start on easy start alone and then you should try things like heater plugs if it wont start again from cold
slackening an injector pipe whilst cranking untill it starts will bleed the injector side of the pump then tighten it when it starts ,I have often had to do this if bleeding the system fails to get an engine to start
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Cheers defender.
Will try the injector fuel pipe end off thing tonight as well as bunch of easy start then.
Fingers crossed.
Goose.
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As i said earlier goosy be very careful using the snuff as it CAN wreck the engine if you give it too much in one go,it will rev right up and go pop so in the best smith family warning voice
warning-warning- warning
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ok bell boy, wicked, cool, warning taken. tonights plan is to try the mrs's puggy bits one by one, if that dont work, then straight wire feed to the glo plug engine circuit. plus also un-doing each injector fuel pipe one by one to eliminate air lock potential.
Choice!!!
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morning dudes. well, tried the swapping of the mrs's parts, the yellow and black plug-in type blocks in the engine fuse box. still no glo plugs.
then tried a wire straight to the glo plugs, dunno if i did it long enough, or worked, but same result. Nothing!
then tried heating the glo plugs again, and easy start in the intercooler intake. Which got a few plutters, then a couple of clonks, then the rev counter and speedo needles went round to about 4 o'clock! (120mph/5000rpm), until i turned the ignition off.
so tonight, gotta turn the crankshaft to check that clonk wasnt terminal. no reason why it shouldve been cause i know my unc put the cambelt on pucka cause he's a bit of a ledge at it all.
Hopin he'll be round tonight actually to work his magic. Fingers crossed.
Still not totally convinced the injectors are seeing diesel...so will check that again tonight. but that still wont help getting the glo plugs working.
So thats the latest...i'm outta idea's.
Goose.
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That easy start worries me Goose, cos the ignition switch is not going to stop it or the governer limit it....
Why not try a tow start behind another vehicle rather than the easy start?
Hope you get it sorted soon.
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Yo all. Oilrag, i too am not convinced of the easy start thing, makes it make loud bangy noises, not cool.
Heres the latest dudes, uncles been round thurs eve and with a direct supply from battery for the glo plugs, and connected to a running motor to keep the battery topped up, we got the engine to run....for a second of 2, then it dies again.
Have bled the entry bleed nipple to the pump. Yet when you fire the engine, there are still bubbles going through the clear tube from fuel filter to pump. Have bled the union joint at the fuel return end of the pump also like it said in haynes.
the engine will start whether foot on floor or not. without touching it, it'll start, go up to 1100rpm, then die. when its on, it sounds fine.
my main concern now, is as ever...electrical! Is the stop solenoid having a say in this? Is it broken? Remeber this pump is from my old engine and was working fine before all this traumour. i've even got a new bleed squeezy pump thing, cause i thought my one was leaking, well, it was, but still no success with the engine or stopping the air bubbles through the clear pipe between fuel filter and injector pump.
i'm out of ideas again team! Thouroughly fed up in truth! I swear from now though, i will NEVER buy a Peugeot again...not only are their engines prone to breaking...when you swap them over theres umpteen electrical gizmo's to screw you up again.
and what are those pipe clips all about!!!! Dont get me started on those!!!
Adios.
Stressed-so-close-to-fixing-it Goose.
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stop solenoid does sound likely
pity you didnt know before you fitted the pump though
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well, i really dont think it can be bleeding the fuel thats the problem, cause it does the same thing every start up. Unless theres a uniform flow of air bubbles going through the pump...which is unlikely surely.?.?
I phoned Hamble Motors (Peugeot) for their advice, and they were as helpful as a chocolate teapot. All the guy was interested in was me getting the car transported to their workshop for a "Diagnostic" check! Which is code for saying "We want to batter your wallet Mr goose!" in my book. And how do i get the car to peugeot WHEN THE THING DOESNT START!!!! Idiots! Will pop into another local dealer tonight on way home. This guy this morning sounded like he was still on a come down from the weekend to be honest!
Yeah the stop solenoid, typically i'm now finding on these engines...not the easiest to get to! cant even get the wiring plug to pull out at the moment...might have to batter it to get it out.
Then what...do i wire in the brown wire, or the blue one?
So close to the finish line dudes...its doing my nut in!
Adios for now.
Goose.
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you have cracked the injectors off and confirmed no diesel then?
as this will then put you on the stop solenoid
pity you didnt deactivate this when you had the pump off
by the way you cant just join wires up outside the pump,as this will not work
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Erm...hold on...yeah have checked for fuel at the injector union nuts, all good there, sprays out everywhere when the engines running...would this put the stop solenoid theory in doubt???
What is it then? Just a case of keep trying it till it bleeds the air/problem away??
Could it be cause the Glo Plugs arent working but are being fed straight from the battery?
Goose.
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hi--------
if they are spraying then stop solenoid is indeed ok
check your pump timing now then
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hmmm crickey, would do, but cant get to the 3rd securing nut behind the pump...have already lost one 13mm socket trying to get to it....you really know how to freak me out bell boy dont ya. lol.
Uncle said it would run, but not well, if the pump were not timed perfectly.
????
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Uncle is talking out of a different part of his anatomy than his head:-) . Get the timing out by more than a few degrees and it will not run.
madf
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reading all this is incredible- is it worth it?
But having messed with oil burners , they are obsessive.
It points to timing, it is critical and the pug rules need following not a notch out. Bubbles in the fuel never bothered ny old van.
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I have to go with timing too....if it is out by one tooth she will idle like a b!tch if she actually starts.....
'Checking the timing is easy' it is getting those covers off that is the pig...
however, one thing to note, with no glow plug light you do have alittle issue somewhere...
Regards
H
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hmmm not so sure Uncle talks out of his ??? chaps, he's worked on more cars than i've had hot dinners.
Spoke to our good friends at Peugeot last night on way home. They too were stumped.
Said if the stop solenoid were on, no fuel at all would be at the injectors.
Also to check the feeder pipes to the fuel filter assembly. Which i have done, in fact, replaced all i could with my origianals which i knew had no leaks.
...same end result.
So, yes, its a pain in the pink fluffy dice but it would appear the timing may be an issue. Time to put about 4 bends in my favourite 13mm spanner then, to reach that 3rd mounting pink fluffy dice underneath the pump. And to get the "Book of lies" back out and read up on timing checking.
Thanks for your replies chaps, even the one not so complimentory of my Unc i guess!
Goose.
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I'd have put this on the end of a rope by now and tried to tow started it, I presume the battery is in good condition, all leads good and tight, including the engine earth?
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I hear you Dox, but thats easier said than done, the car is SORN at the mo, and has no front wheels on and is up in the air at the front, and i wouldnt wanna draw attention to it by dragging it down the road with smoke pouring out the back of it. I suppose i could put the wheels on it, but would restrict my acess to the cambelt end of the engine for pump tuning etc, so have left wheels off at the mo.
Have been connecting it to another running car to keep the battery topped up.
Surely if the engine earth werent good then nothing would work, let alone the glow plugs.?.?
Current plan is to pop into Peugeot again tonight and ask to borrow, or at least see this tool they use for undo-ing the 3rd underneath fixing bolt of the pumps axial locking. Then take it home, and tweek the pump going by the haynes instructions.
If after pump tweeking it doesnt start, then yes, i'll be towing it towards portsmouth harbour, and if it doesnt start by the time i reach the water, it going to the sea bed!!!!
Goose.
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Diesels engines need to turn over fast on the starter motor, if its not fast enough there won't be enough heat to fire the injected diesel. Letting the clutch out at 1000RPM would give plenty of heat to try and start it.
No glowplugs, timing slightly out and a weak battery and this car will never start. At least with a tow you'll see if the engine will run, then you can investigate the glow plugs and timing etc
Its what I'd do
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As Dox has stated, a weak battery probably means the drain will be too much. Use jump leads, connect to a car whose engine is running and lots of amps... (as in starting a car with a flat battery)
madf
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And put a direct feed onto the glowplugs!!
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...I gotta direct feed to the glow plugs..
...the battery isnt weak but i do have it connected to a running car anyways..
...couldnt get the dam screw plug to come out last night to time the pump!...
...Didnt even get to use my new long reach sockets GARGHHH!!!
Am seeking quotes on mobile mechanics right now...i'm loosing my rag!
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Was the replacement engine a runner before you swapped the pump?
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Apparently so, according to Mr Scrapyard man, he drove it to his yard, it was only scraped because the turbo had gone.
So, nothing in writing, but this guy is one of your more trusty scrapyard managers!
Uncle knows him, did him a SWEET deal on a "re-discovered in spain but already written off by insurance company" Porsche Boxter last year.
So yes it worked before i got my sweaty palms on it!
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Hope you get it sorted Goose, I`m `willing` it to work for you :)
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Cheers oilrag mi ole mucka, its very frustrating having her so close to life again but she just wont do it.
Current status, went to perrys peugeot again yesterday, to ask (a) how much for them to do the timing, and (b) could i "borrow" the tooling they use and do it myself (A long shot but costs nothing to ask).
Answers as you'd expect were...
(a) £75 VAT x 2 hours! (£176.25, thieving _______'s)
(b) No chance!
Plan A, have a mechanic/306 expert coming round tomorrow night to listen to what shes doing, and hopefully confirm the timing would fix it.
Plan B, Uncles a bit tied up so havent heard from him.
Plan C is to drag it to a normal garage on Friday for them to do it.
Guys, what do you think about a simple case of trial and error, making very slight radial movements to the pump, then trying to start it??? I have a clock gauge but i dont think it'll go into the timing hole of the pump, plus at the moment, i cant get the &^%$ screw out anyway to get to it!
Why is this never simple?!?!?!?!?!
Not giving up yet....
Goose.
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You've got nothing to lose by making slight trial-and-error movements, other than your patience! Might not be worth bothering tho because you don't know whether it needs advancing or retarding so would be a hugely long process - leave it to someone with the correct timing tools and cough up the ££. You've saved money so far by fitting the engine etc, IMO it'd be money well-spent towing it to an indie diesel specialist and paying them to time it up.
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Yo.
So heres the goss, ITS WORKING!!!!
Had girlfriends mate round from 10-6 on saturday, he spent the majority of the day bleeding the fuel, and checking the wiring diagrams in the "book of lies".
at the last gasp, we'd nailed it down to the starter motor circuit and the glo plug relay area. The glo plugs were not getting a feed they should partly cause of a busted relay, and partly because the power/trigger from the starter motor wasnt working on the original connection at the starter motor. So put the wire from the glo plug relay onto the same connection as the ignition feed to the starter, put girlfriends glo plug relay on...
...turned ignition on and got the glo plug light, and the engine fired up, and kept going!!!!!
Cant quite figure out why now there is a redundant connection on the starter motor, but to be honest, i really dont care. Getting a glo plug relay from a scrappy, and she'll be on the road. SWEET!!!
So, not an obvious outcome, but i dont care, the car is running!!!
Many thanks for all your inputs, much appreciated.
GOOSE.
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well goose it certainly was one that ruffled the feathers and we all ducked down at times but nice to see your swimming again
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Dudes.
The car is on the road.
Was running poorly when warm but after i put my original injecctors in the car, and replaced the old ones, i noticed that they were well clogged up with soot! What does this tell me about the replacement engine? High mileage? head gasket dodgy? Or lack of servicing through its life.
Its a wonder it ran at all.
So my original injectors in, and she runs fairly well considering the pump timing isnt correct yet.
She is down on power, will barely get up to 3000rpm when driving, cant feel the turbo come in, black smokes a fair bit, and has a slightly different smell to burning oil or usual diesel smell.
Is this all down to non-accurate pump timing? I'm a little twitchy.
I have driven it into work today, so shes nearly there. Just wondered what your thoughts were chaps.
Cheers.
Goose.
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