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I would be inclined to agree. I'd rather not be able to get going than not be able to stop. Losing control of the back end is usually much worse than lack of grip on the front which tends to result in understeer.
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Nobblies of the Allegro era were not specialist winter tyres like are made today. They were simpy M & S tyres in car sizes. And the standard tyres of the Allegro era were way better in the snow than standard tyres of today plus they were far narrower.
So back then the handling imbalance you created by fitting the nobblies on the front would be minimal compared to the handling imbalance you would create today by putting the excellent winter tyres available on the front and oversized summer tyres on the rear.
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These are some interesting points but as the front wheels do all the steering and most of the braking, it would be better to have the winter tyres on the front.
Would ABS not prevent the rears locking up under braking and therefore prevent any kind of catastrophe from occuring where the rear wheels overtake the front ones ?
Similarly I would expect ESP to correct any oversteer ( is it is designed to do ) and finally we are talking only about running around locally and not high speed driving on ice, where the comparable lack of grip might be noticeable.
Would it not be better with two winter tyres on the front than on four standard tyres - I think yes.
anyway this weather is set to improve from the weekend, fingers crossed it might not be neccesary after all.
Edited by Mr Fox on 23/01/2013 at 18:06
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If it's a particularly small and light car I'd tend not to mix tyres as such cars are more sensitive to front rear balance issues, I'd also ensure the best (newest) tyres are on the rear as the light rear end of modern small hatchbacks can aquaplane on standing water way before the fronts - especially during braking when pitch-induced weight transfer only makes matters worse. The car will swap ends before you can blink in this situation - ABS and DSP or not.
I did run all season tyres on the front only on my Citroën C5 V6, it coped fine over 30ish K miles including in deep snow. It must be pointed out that in a popular video on the web showing why you should not mix winter and standard tyres was shot after they defeated TC and DSP, I suspect the difference would not have been anywhere nearly as dramatic with those systems active. Also I rarely let my tyres drop below 4mm tread so they will naturally be much better than "normal" tyres with only 2mm of tread left in snowy conditions. When I put the same all-season tyres on HWMBO's C3, I put them on all four corners!
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My Focus came with just 2 winter tyres. I rang my local tyre supplier and was told that using just 2 tyres was not recommended. When you go round a corner on snow/ice, if you have summer tyres fitted to the rear and winter at the front the rear of the car just won't grip as well and will upset the balance of the car.
My car now has 4 winter tyres. Today I went out in our Saab with summer tyres. It certainly wasn't as good as the Focus. Grip and stopping ability, with winter tyres, are both supremely better when out in the Focus.
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I think ESP may prevent oversteer by the mechanism of applying a brake - which is in itself dodgy on snow.
I think more relevant is a situation where, on a bit of a bend, those rear tyres simply have less strictly-lateral grip, compared with the fronts. So I can well believe oversteer could happen.
Nevertheless, being a skinflint, my other car (not the one mentioned in my wide tyre thread) has 4-season tyres only on the front. My preference is to at least have traction for moving and braking - for trips at low speeds on 30mph local roads, mind. But that was my personal choice, taken with due forethought. If making a recommendation to others, I would still stand by the official line of changing all four.
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as the front wheels do all the steering and most of the braking, it would be better to have the winter tyres on the front.
In a straight line, yes. But straight lines seldom represent a major problem. You could really come unstuck going round a corner facing downhill. Wheel spin and skidding are inconvenient, but an absolute breeze compared with a rear end that's not following the front end.
Similarly I would expect ESP to correct any oversteer
As others have mentioned, ESP should be off in snow and ice. I find that the use of low gears makes a much more dependable retarding force than service brakes in snow and ice. The wheels might spin, but they won't lock so you'll always make maximum use of available traction.
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We had a few inches of snow the other day and had totally covered the roads.My daughters friends mother dropped the daughter off at our house and commented that at every junction she couldn't get any traction and her journey had taken twice as long.I then took my daughter and her friend to school in my car which has winter tyres fitted all round.There was no fuss,no slipping and it drove as if there wasn't any snow.
On the way home i came across a very steep hill near me and i thought i try out the grip on this one.I felt if i could get up this hill then it would go anywhere.
Anyway,again, the car went up as if the snow wasn't there.The wheels didn't spin at all and i reached the top with no drama.
So my car on winter tyres would go up the steepest hill in my town and yet the friends car couldn't even set off on a flat without wheel spin on her summer tyres.
I am now totally convinced of the benefits of changing to winter tyres and would highly recommended them as they are also very good on icy roads as well.
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Sounds good, which make & name of winter tyre were you using ?
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My only experience on them was on an old Peugeot 305 a couple of years ago, it had new Bridgestone Blizzaks on the front when I bought it, and combined with the fact they were skinny, it was unstoppable in snow and slush, the difference was staggering. Front only, the little drums on the back didnt do much anyway but it was superb up the hills around here. It could fly past SUVs with AWD, seriously impressive.
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Winter tyres is just a con. I've driven a standard 406 on all weather tyres through a blizzard worse than we had this week and didn't get stuck once.
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Too black and white again Jamie.
I've driven FWD cars since 1970 and all have been fine in snow and ice until these two Octavia vRSs - the current one and its predecessor, with their (unnecessary) 225x40x18 low-profile tyres.
Winter or all-weather tyres are needed by RWD cars and FWDs with low-profile tyres which are fitted to cars more for image than anything else.
We hear a lot about winter tyres, but only a small minority of motorists buy them - because, like your 406 which presumably has normal tyres, they don't need them. But those who do need them are glad they've bought them, as you can see from some of the posts above as well as my own experience.
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The S-Type has 235x50x17 tyres. Michelin Primacy's all round. It's acceptable in snow but it has a low chunky front end and is RWD. I could've used it this week as the road has been mostly ok, it's other morons hitting ice and crashing into me that I'm more concerned about.
Edited by jamie745 on 24/01/2013 at 00:56
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I run 225 40 18 on my Audi, but my winter tyres are fairly worn 205 55 16 winters, it is dramatically better, the proof is in the pudding and quite simply I cannot get into my village on normal wheels, on 16 inch winters, I can...good enough for me and they arent even new..they work full stop.
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You can get bigger wheels for the S-Type but I think the 17s are about right. Wouldn't go any bigger because in my view it then ceases to be the comfortable vehicle it was surely built to be - unless it's the R model of course.
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Its not the size its the compound, it wont get up the 1in3 hill into my village on standard tyres in the snow...I have never seen it on standad tyres tyres and I doubt its possible, winter tyres, 4wd, socks/chains is how its done.
The pub landlord leaves his C class at the bottom of the hill and walks, as do his staff.
With just winter tyres for me its a run up, high speed and balls out...and thats FWD in a front heavy car...my dads XJ6 on brand new 225 60 16 all seasons hasnt got a chance.
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Avant 'Winter or all-weather tyres are needed by RWD cars and FWDs with low-profile tyres which are fitted to cars more for image than anything else.'
Our Saab doesn't have low profile tyres, but the Focus with winter tyres gripped where the Saab didn't.
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Countryroads says ".my dads XJ6 on brand new 225 60 16 all seasons hasnt got a chance."
Depends what your dad means by "all seasons". We had a set some years ago that were claimed to be all season tyres and had the symbols on for the 4 seasons of the year. On the Gold TDi they were little if any better than regular standard summer tyres. If he means thet they are the tyres he uses in all the seaons they will be just summer tyres.
We now have Kleber Quadraxer 4 season tyres on both of our cars and I can honestly say they are as good as any winter tyre I have used in the past. But the difference is the Kleber has the 3 peak mountain and snowfake symbol which means they are approved for use in parts of the world where winter tyres are mandatory.
But things have moved on and tyre manufacturers produce much better winter tyres then they did years ago. Next time I purchase it may well be a set of proper winter tyres (with the (3 peak mountain and snowfake symbol of course) that I buy.
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"Summer", "All-Season" and "M+S" have no general definitions so can mean whatever the manufacturer wants.
"Winter" may have internationally agreed symbols, Three Peaks/Snowflake, but again it's down to what the manufacturer wants.
A few All-Season tyres also qualify as winter tyres, eg Kleber Quadraxer and Vredestein Quatrac but generally Winter tyres won't last well in summer conditions.
I have OE Kumho Solus KL21 on my Santa Fe SUV - Kumho rate them as All-Season but they're pants as soon as it gets wet or cold.
Edited by RT on 24/01/2013 at 10:17
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I have OE Kumho Solus KL21 on my Santa Fe SUV - Kumho rate them as All-Season but they're pants as soon as it gets wet or cold.
Just looked on the Khumo site and they do not appear to have the "three mountain peak and snowflake" symbol thus the "all season" bit is probably just manufacturer speak since Khumo only reate them a 6/10 in the snow. Even their car tyres get 5/10 in the snow.
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All reviews I have read on this tyre have been terrible a eg,
"Where to start ? Basically these tyres are utter rubbish and I removed them within a few months of buying my new car ! Poor levels of grip which border on dangerous, especially when braking, no feel and LOTS of road noise. These were O/E on my Sorento and ruined a great car. I would never use these tyres again."
This being one of the best some of the other reviews were unprintable.
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I have OE Kumho Solus KL21 on my Santa Fe SUV - Kumho rate them as All-Season but they're pants as soon as it gets wet or cold.
Just looked on the Kumho site and they do not appear to have the "three mountain peak and snowflake" symbol thus the "all season" bit is probably just manufacturer speak since Khumo only reate them a 6/10 in the snow. Even their car tyres get 5/10 in the snow.
Most All-Season tyres are NOT rated for Winter use - but as I posted there's no definition of Summer, All-Season or M+S anyway.
Winter tyres need to be good in two areas, sometime contradictory - they need to be good in snow but they also need to be good in cold conditions wet or dry, cold being defined as below 7 degrees Celcius.
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The All season tyres on my other half's car may not be officially designated as winter tyres (because they are not) but they are heavily blocked and have many tiny sips to help pick up snow to aid snow traction, the blocks move creating tyre carcass temperature, so even if they are not full winter tyres, they are more likely to be operating in an acceptable temperature range thanks to the the increased tread block movement. I bought these tyres paricularly after runnig them on my own car. They are supposedly cheap and nasty being Chinese but they perform very well in the real world. They deal with standing water particularly well and are much better than standard tyres in the snow and ice - perhaps not "full winter tyre good" - but then you simply don't need "full winter tyre good" in the UK - unless you live in a high and remote area.
So far I've tackled steep icy hills (up and down where there were plenty of stuck and abandoned cars), deep snow down barely used back lanes and on snowy motorways, the tyres have been faultless, I've not even come close to having an issue. These tyres (Nankang N607) have been on the car for about a year. About 6 months ago I hit a huge puddle on an A road at 60 mph (I saw it ahead and let the throtle off before hitting it) the car didn't budge - the Audi A3 that was following me aquaplanned and spun.
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"Most All-Season tyres are NOT rated for Winter use -"
Oh yes they are or they would not be "all season"take a look at Good Years web site or any other web site that is from a manufacturer who makes proper all season tyres.I have a E39 with Good Year all season tyres fitted they have a mountain and a snow flake symbol designed for use upto -30 as are the Cooper winter tyres fitted to my E46 .
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"Most All-Season tyres are NOT rated for Winter use -"
Oh yes they are or they would not be "all season"take a look at Good Years web site or any other web site that is from a manufacturer who makes proper all season tyres.I have a E39 with Good Year all season tyres fitted they have a mountain and a snow flake symbol designed for use upto -30 as are the Cooper winter tyres fitted to my E46 .
You may be logically right but not factually so.
They aren't winter-rated unless they have the ThreePeaks/Snowflake stamped - most All-season tyres simply don't have that stamp.
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But they do open your eyes what more do want than the manufacturers web site.
I will repeat GOOD YEAR ALL SEASON TYRES HAVE A MOUNTAIN AND SNOW FLAKE RECOMENDED FOR WINTER USE AND TEMP -30c fitted to one of my BMWs the same applys to all Euroean manufactured all season tyres AS DO MY COOPER WINTER TYRES fitted to the other.If they did not comply with the EU regs they would swiftly be withdrawn from sale.
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But they do open your eyes what more do want than the manufacturers web site.
I will repeat GOOD YEAR ALL SEASON TYRES HAVE A MOUNTAIN AND SNOW FLAKE RECOMENDED FOR WINTER USE AND TEMP -30c fitted to one of my BMWs the same applys to all Euroean manufactured all season tyres AS DO MY COOPER WINTER TYRES fitted to the other.If they did not comply with the EU regs they would swiftly be withdrawn from sale.
The only Goodyear All-season tyre in my car's size is the Wrangler HP All Weather - it's shown on the European Goodyear website as "All-Season" and "On-road" - no reference anywhere to "Winter" www.goodyear.eu/uk_en/tires/4x4/wrangler-hp-all-we.../
I can only go by the evidence I find.
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I am sorry it does not have the logo on my tyres I better get a new pair of glasses because I must be seeing things.I don,t give a Monkys about your tyres I know you have said you have Khumos voted the worst winter based tyre s ever made.
www.goodyear.eu/de_de/tires/passenger/vector-4seas...e
Edited by Collos25 on 24/01/2013 at 15:20
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I am sorry it does not have the logo on my tyres I better get a new pair of glasses because I must be seeing things.I don,t give a Monkys about your tyres I know you have said you have Khumos voted the worst winter based tyre s ever made.
www.goodyear.eu/de_de/tires/passenger/vector-4seas...e
The Goodyear Vector 4 season are only claimed by Goodyear to be All-season, not Winter-rated.
Anyway, the only Goodyears available in 235/60R18 are the Wrangler HP All Weather (All-season) and Ultragrip SUV (Winter).
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The Goodyear 'Vector 4Seasons' "All Season" tyres on my i10 do have the three mountain symbol and M & S (all the M&S jokes have been done before).
The Dunlop SP WinterSport "Winter Tyres" on the Yeti are ther same.
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Those N607 Nankangs are reported well by users on the Tyretest site.
I don't usually buy cheaper Far East made tyres nor any other without research, but last year i experimented with a cheap replacement set of summers.
My previous set of Toyo T1R's whilst sticking like the proverbial to a blanket were getting increasingly loud and the crashing ride made driving my old MB thoroughly miserable, took them off at 4mm couldn't stand it any more.
After much research i found a set of Federal Formoza FD2 @ roughly £50 each for 225/45 x 17, thse being highly recommended for smooth and quiet ride, so i bought a set for an experiment if you like, half the price of anything slightly comparable.
Indeed the ride is far better and the tyres almost silent in use indeed (they have the word 'silent' embossed on the sidewall), no they don't have the fantastic immovable wet grip of the Toyo's, but neither are they as bad as i thought they might be.
I think the days of labelling all tyres from the Far East as ditchfinders are ending.
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After much research i found a set of Federal Formoza FD2 @ roughly £50 each for 225/45 x 17, thse being highly recommended for smooth and quiet ride, so i bought a set for an experiment if you like, half the price of anything slightly comparable.
My brother put those on his Jag last year - he raves about them, quieter and better ride quality than the OE Pirellis, great traction wet or dry.
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My brother put those on his Jag last year - he raves about them, quieter and better ride quality than the OE Pirellis, great traction wet or dry.
Well they would work well, car designed properly, front wheels do the steering and the main braking, rears do the powering and assist the braking, just like nature intended..;)
assuming that is its not an X type.
Seriously though glad they are working for him too, on my car they do not grip as well as the T1R's but them they were shockingly good in that respect, otherwise i'm more than satisfied especially for the price.
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As others have mentioned, ESP should be off in snow and ice.
Best demonstration I ever saw of ESP capabilites was an early Volvo implementation.....on a frozen lake. The journalist presenter of the programme was given the con and told to drive it normally. With ESP off he spun it very quickly, with it on the verdict was that it was impossible to spin.
So that's Volvo reckoning that it's at its best on snow and ice.
My experiences of an ESP equipped Octavia in the depths of a Czech winter support that. The one thing to watch out for is that you shouldn't try to "second guess" it. I very rapidly figured out that I should forget everything I'd ever learned about the use of opposite lock and so on and just let the ESP do its stuff. Once I'd figured that out, it was very impressive on ice and snow.
Yes, one of the things it does is bang a brake, however it does this to deliberately lock a wheel and "knows" when it has succeeded courtesy of the ABS sensor. Thus this is equally as effective on the snow.
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Its been mentioned before that BMW's have 3 settings for the "Dynamic Stability Control Systems"
First is the default i.e. full on which is always the setting the car starts in regardless of what you fiddled with previously.
Second is full off which needs no explanation surely.
The third is called DTC which is for special circumstances e.g. snow. But itstates quite clearly in the manual what these special circumstances are: 1) driving up hill on snow covered roads, 2) rocking car out of snow or other loose surface 3) driving with chains fitted. But it tells you to go back to the full on position as soon as conditions allow since deactiavtion from the full on setting results in a loss of stability.
Edited by thunderbird on 24/01/2013 at 13:46
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Having thought about it and read some of your comments, I have gone ahead and fitted two Pirelli SottoZero winter tyres to the Front wheels of My Mrs' car, a Mondeo 2008 2.0 TDCI Ghia Estate. On the standard Michelin tyres,235.45.17 with plenty of tread, the car was totally undriveable, no traction at all and even at walking speed it was impossible to drive on the snow. it slid all over the Place and I considered it too dangerous to use. I had to do something.
Now it is absolutely fine, traction and grip on the snow are in a different world, these are really only going to earn their crust getting to the main roads which generally are all clear.
Hopefully this cold spell wll not last long, and these are only a short term measure.
My own car a Passat CC 2.0 TDI with DSG Gearbox, on Continental Sport contact 3 tyres, the same size, and two new ones at the front, was absolutely fine in the snow, without any problems, of course I was careful, but the car never got stuck or slid out of control.
I am changing this car soon, but will consider a new set of Winter tyres for the next one.
Edited by Mr Fox on 24/01/2013 at 15:10
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HJ doesn't recommend fitting just two winters. Nor do any of the 'authorities' I've seen. Due mainly to the back overtaking the front in the event of braking/cornering on ice. (See the clip on Youtube)
But if you did have an accident (irrespective of whose fault it was) would your insurers be OK with two winters on the front and two summers on the back? How about you give them a call to check....it would be yourself that lost out if they weren't. I guess they'd pay out for the third party (although not absolutely sure??)...but you wouldn't want to find out you're not covered.
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I guess they'd pay out for the third party (although not absolutely sure??).
Yes, that's the point of compulsory 3rd party insurance.
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Yes, I take your point, of course. But if someone has "modified" their car...and by fitting a non approved combination of winters and summers I guess that's a 'mod', I wondered if they could say the policy was voided by those actions?
Edited by KB. on 24/01/2013 at 16:22
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Yes, I take your point, of course. But if someone has "modified" their car...and by fitting a non approved combination of winters and summers I guess that's a 'mod', I wondered if they could say the policy was voided by those actions?
"non Approved" - Approved by Whom ?
Would a car fail its MOT if fitted with different types of tyre on the front and rear ?
There is no absolute standard for Winter or Summer tyres so it cannot therefore be such a black and white issue.
I feel that this car is much safer as it is than before where there was a very high likelyhood of losing control and colliding with another road user.
From what I understand of insurance companies, you only have to tell then that you've f***ed and they'll find an excuse to. A put the price up, or B refuse to cover you.
If you or anyone can provide the relevant legislation, to prove that it is illegal to have "winter" - remember its only marketing, there is no standard - tyres on the front of a car, then I will consider equipping the rear wheels as well.
This advice taken from the consumer Association Website:
9) Will winter tyres affect my insurance?
We've heard of a few people asking their insurers about this and being told that winter tyres are counted as a 'modification'. In fact we’ve heard of at least one person being declined insurance if they fit them. We’ll continue to investigate this.
As far as we're concerned, as long as the tyre meets the car manufacturer's specified size, and minimum speed and load ratings, they should not be counted as a ‘modification’ to the car and should not therefore change the insurance risk. And many might argue that improving grip in winter conditions should reduce the risk of accidents, thus pleasing insurers.
Edited by Mr Fox on 24/01/2013 at 17:11
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And many might argue that improving grip in winter conditions should reduce the risk of accidents, thus pleasing insurers.
That should be the case but it isn't. Most insurers do not raise the premium if you fit winter tyres but they still need to be told since winter tyres are not a factory fit thus are a modification.
As to you fitting 2 on the front only, after receiving loads of advice not to plus links to authorative siate taht say not to you have just ignored that advice.
I trust you have told your insurers and told them they are only fitted on the front.
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Does my insurer also need to know my shoe size and what time of day I take my first s***?
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Does my insurer also need to know my shoe size and what time of day I take my first s***?
What a totally stupid, pointless and irrelevant comment.
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You seem to have answered all your own questions and assured yourself that you're right and the majority on this particular site (and most other places I see) are wrong. I wonder why you needed to ask the question you asked in the first place if you wasn't going to take any notice of any replies yopu received.
But I wonder why you seem reluctant to actually pick up the phone and tell them about the tyres on your car.
You have to agree that you asked.... "non Approved" - Approved by Whom ?
Surely, in this instance, the answer is - your insurance company are the people to approve, or otherwise, the tyres fitted to your car. And ultimately it's them who will pay you and any third party if you were unfortunate enough to have an accident...and again I say...irrespective of whose fault it was.
Just my 2p's worth.
Edited by KB. on 24/01/2013 at 20:41
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