I would assume so.

Yup.

Trilogy doesn't seem to appreciate that Skoda is the ultimate in badge engineering. The reason it worked for Skoda and not Saab was that the parent company was more prestigious in the case fo the former and not in the case of the latter.

Skoda is a production line. If you think there are engineers dreaming up new quicker more fuel efficient Skodas-you're mistaken.

Trilogy: Why thank you. I'm always happy-new year or not!

I don't understand why you praise VW for badge engineering Skoda, but pan GM for badge engineering Saab? To me the only difference is between a successful marketing strategy and a unsuccessful one. Am I wrong?

Comparing Saab with Skoda is only half a story. Seat is a disaster for VW so it's not all that clear. Skoda only had a single model from what I remember and it wasn't all that bad, just everything else had moved on, they were certainly a step up from Lada.

It's not as difficult to explain as some of the above posts imply. It comes down to whether they make cars that people want to buy.

I had a 24-hour test drive of each of a Saab 9.3 and a Skoda Octavia back in 2009. Quite simply, neither SWMBO nor I liked the Saab but we did like the Skoda. I could give you several reasons but won't bore you - suffice it to say that I'm clearly not alone.

The sad thing for Saab is that last time I had a good run in one - must have been 1993 - it was a narrow victory for a Renault Safrane over a 9000, and at that time Skoda were nowhere. Mind you, I got that one right too: two colleagues got 9000s about then and had endless trouble with them, whereas the Safrane served me faithfully for 4 years and about 120,000 miles.

Avant, your second paragraph reminds me of a couple who took advantage of the scrappage scheme and bought two cars to replace two others. They bought an Octavia and a 9-3! When I'm out with the dog I sometimes see the husband in the front garden. Next time I'll ask him how he's getting on.

BTW, the Saab 9-3 hatch in our family is much more reliable than the Volvo which preceded it.

Also, a neighbour had over 18 consecutive Saabs, so there are lots of reliable ones. (And the marque had a high retention rate of owners, unfortunaely most kept them for a long time). He only left the marque when he decided a 9-3 estate wasn't what he wanted to replace a 9-3 hatch. He now has a Octavia VRS in that beautiful metallic blue. I think it''s a fabulous colour! However, his wife has stayed faithful to SAAB with a last shape 9-3 convertible.

GM, Ford, PSA, Renault, etc will find out soon enough as will you. :)

Judging by Saab's bankruptcy i feel thats unlikely.

LOL. Words fail me. Your comment is the fourth word of your sentence.

Still true though isnt it. You've offered plenty of words featuring such insight like 'LOL' but you've still not told me how Saab are significant or important in any way.

I drove a 9-5. I didn't warm to it, but admittedley it was only a short drive so perhaps I was missing the motorway experience. I found the handling very woolly, the car bings and bongs when you get in and won't stop until you've put your seatbelt on. I detest that. Makes me feel as if the car is in control of you instead of the other way round.

I think the most glaring fault were the electric windows. It was a hot day my hand reached for the inside of the door. Err, no the switches aren't there. OK must be on the transmission tunnel. No. Where the hell are they. Oh, how ergonomic. They are between the seats right in the drivers line of sight and angled upwards just so that you have to force your arm upwards to reach them. Fantastic Saab/GM. You've managed to save some money by needing less wire to reach the doors.

Edited by corax on 31/12/2011 at 09:26

It would seem that Saab engineers are in demand, from Saab AB (defence) and Volvo and several 100s already found new jobs.

Corvette,Camaro

I think there have been a few decent American sports cars produced by GM whose names escape me.

I can't recall a single decent sports car built by GM - you can't call big V8s on a floppy chassis a sports car !!!

Selling large numbers of cars to yanks doesn't make it a worthy car.

I prefered Holden's use of the V8 but it's based on a proper German chassis.

Some people do some guess work and others do their homework its not hard to tell which.

Taken from the owner's review section of this website. BTW this is not me. The one in the family has done just under 90,000 miles.

Needed a very cheap banger till I saved up for something better, saw this slightly tatty looking (bumps, scapes etc)9-3 for £300 with 6 weeks MOT, 140000mls. As soon as I handed over the money I was already regreting being so stupid - until I drove it home and realised I had discovered something special, confirmed when I got it through its MOT for £62! "Not bad car that" said the tester, but he does'nt know the half.

The most comfortable seats I've ever found, loaded with kit, huge boot. Quiet engine, firm but well controlled shudder free ride, great long-distance car, I recently drove (apart from comfort breaks) for 13 hours and felt fine. Excellent sound system. Without exception every family member and friend who has been in it rates it - my 15 yr old son adores it! Only needed 2 tyres and oil change in 4000mls. Starts first time even in -20 recent weather. Averages about 33mpg localy, 37/38mpg long runs.


Ignore the "its GM rubbish" argument. Its simply a well designed, well built car. A Mondeo drives better for the sporty driver, but in reality most dont want/need sporty firmness in day to day living. Feels solid and secure on road. Deeply satisfying car. You realise how good it is when you travel in something else - it will be noisier, less comfortable, and less well finished inside. Excellent on-line commumity, some owners on 300000mls+. Some weaknesses to watch for as you would expect so check carefuly (not like me!).

Hugely under-rated car. Quite simply I cant imagine now driving anything else.

It's a 2.0 SE, 2000, so LPT. It dpends on your definition of later. :)

This was HJ's opinion on the 9-3 when it was launched in 2002. It makes fascinating reading in light of comments from people here who know all about Saabs, yet I suspect have never sat in one, let alone ever driven one.

HJ, 'The 9-3 is up against the Audi A4, BMW 3-Series, Mercedes C Class, Volvo S60, Lexus IS200 and Jaguar X Type, which SAAB sees as its natural competitors. I'd have to add the Rover 75 and MG ZT. The A4 is a smarter, classier act, but doesn't ride and handle as well. The BMW is more rear-drive sporty and more fun to drive, but doesn't ride as well and equivalent performance costs more. The C Class is dearer and is only just getting its new high-tech supercharged 1.8 engines. The Volvo S60 isn't as complete a car and lacks rear head and legroom. The Lexus IS200 is a one engine range and not such a good long distance car. For the same money, a 9-3 2.0t is a better car to drive than a 2.1 X Type. The Rover and MG have their Brit appeal, but their chassis aren't quite as good.

Edited by Trilogy on 31/12/2011 at 17:51

I think the common definition of badge engineering has changed over the decades - the old BMC version was limited to changing badges and little else and it's true that modern Vauxhalls are simply badge-engineered Opels.

It seems increasingly common for engineers to use common platforms, including all their sub-systems like powertrain, climate control, etc and retain all the body "hardpoints" but reskin exterior and retrim the interior for a different brand and this is routinely referred to as badge-engineering in modern times.

The only GM Saab that I looked at in detail was the original "new" 900 - despite being unmistakably a Saab at first glance, underneath it was clearly a Cavalier in drag fitted with the Saab engine - everything else was clearly recognisably GM - how you describe such a car is down to semantics but that was modern badge-engineering to me.

In my view, the problem for Saab under GM was that GM itself had no clear sense of direction, particularly for Opel/Vauxhall, so Saab never stood a chance with hindsight.

Currently GM is raiding Opel/Vauxhall for Buick models and Daewoo for Chevrolet but all the engineering control/influence is being moved to Detroit and next generations of Opel/Vauxhall will have little European input - so once again for the umpteenth time the sale of Opel/Vauxhall will be on the cards but like Saab it will have been asset-stripped.

Now there's a great idea. They'd have to make sure they still had pre-GM seat designers. The crowning glory would be to sell seats to the Spanish branch of VAG (sorry).