used car fault dealer refuses to help! - chester37

Took delivery 32 days ago of a second hand car bought from a dealer website. used the car for 4 weeks about 500 miles and the car as suffered terminal transmission failure and the cost of repair is 1500 just less than the cost of the car. dealer no help , says he can will do nothing, sold without his warranty bit was sold with a 3rd party warranty which is for a maximum claim of 250 - you know the ones ! would keep the car if he would settle the repair or even 75% of it as i do not want him to do the repair - trust and faith broken.

Again cannot take car back to him as it is not drivable and not keen to put on lorry back to him for him to refund... like that would happen, guess i would just loose the car and what i paid for it.. i have notified trading standards and my credit card issuer...

anyone had similar that can offer advice.. can i get the car repaired and go to small claim s court for costs? Do i leave car as is and do Small claims for estimate repir cost to see the outcome .. i guess there is no guarantee that any award would be paid.

Or do i scarp the vehicle and move on,,,

thanks

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - Rich320d
Sorry to hear about that.

What make and model of car is it? Most common makes you can get a second hand or recon gearbox for a couple of hundred pounds, so it wouldnt be too expensive to fix.

Regards
used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

If its outside of the dealers warranty period and its not covered under it anyway then theres practically nothing you can do. There needs to be a cut off point for when a car is no longer the dealers problem, or you'd have people taking them back five years later after they've ragged it and go "its broken!"

Sounds like a piece of really bad luck mate, sorry to hear about it but it happens to everyone at some point.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - smug bellend #1

I should think you've good grounds to ask for a refund (less the cost of the use of the car for the period you've had it).

The points are:

1. It was sold by a dealer.

2. Faults that occur within a short time are assumed to be present at the time of sale.

Have you spoken to trading standards?

The problem will be getting the dealer to accept their responsibility.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

2. Faults that occur within a short time are assumed to be present at the time of sale

Currently there is no proof of it. if the buyer didnt find anything wrong when test driving it, how do we expect the dealer to know better? How do we know the buyer hasnt ragged it up a steep hill in the countryside and shagged the transmission? "short time" is very subjective, there needs to be a cut off point where its no longer the dealers problem. Just saying "it was sold by a dealer" means very little, you cant take a car back a year later with 10k more on it and ask for your money back, these people are in business to make money, not give it away. No surprise he doesnt want to accept liability for a 1500 quid fault.

If the following day it expiredi n a cloud of smoke then for sure take it back and park it on his head, but a month on? Its a tricky one. If the dealer knows what he's doing he'll make sure he's got small print absolving him of responsibility on this one like any self respecting businessman would do. Its bad luck but bad luck happens.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - smug bellend #1

From Citizens Advice Bureau: www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_world/consumer_a...r

"If the vehicle develops a problem soon after you bought it, you may have a right to return the vehicle to the dealer and get your money back. This would probably need to be within about three to four weeks at the most of buying the vehicle. The problem would need to be fairly major, and you would need to take into account the age, mileage and price of the vehicle when deciding whether it is reasonable to take it back."

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - chester37

the gearbox is an auto box with no o/d or sports mode... so difficult to thrash ...

having looked into this under the Sale of Goods Act if an issue occurs with 6 months then it is deemed to be present when sold... bit odd but thats what it says,, also reasonable time.... Am i reasonably to expect the gearbox to fail within 500 miles.. no way... dealers should take the rough with the smooth and at least acknlowledge the car has a problem and work to find a solution... i did not what to take the car back, just them to cover the parts and i offered to pay the labour... still no! Small claims court here we come and you can add any related expenses so it will be a lot more long term....

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

Its interesting you mention its an automatic, my family had a Mondeo once which was an automatic and my father drove it up a hill in the highlands in an ill advised move on a steep gradient, it got up there but the gearbox was shot and was very jerky afterwards, but still workable. If anything an auto can be easier to break than a manual as people like unthrottled has said before that "a driver can see the road ahead, the machine cant" or words to that effect. Im not accusing you of breaking the car im just saying it can happen.

Again theres alot of words in that CAB thing like "reasonable". Which is all down to opinion. Quite how the sale of goods act can declare if a fault occurs after six months then the fault was there when you bought it. What a load of s***. Im sorry but if the fault occurs after six months then the fault was present at six months, not at sale. My house was built in 1976 and last year it developed subsidance issues, does that mean it was present when i moved in four years ago? No it doesnt. I bought a used laptop once and five months on the fan broke, does that mean the fan was broken when i bought it? No, of course not, because i used it for five months, which wouldve been impossible otherwise. So the fault occured after five months and was obviously not present at sale.

If the transmission was shot at sale you wouldnt of got the car home would you? So how can you claim the fault was present at sale? Because you're basically claiming (if you're claiming it was present at sale) that you bought a broken car and magically got it home even though you now claim it doesnt work? I'd really like to see how you did that. By claiming you've driven it for 500 miles with a fault which renders the car undrivable, you are declaring that fault was not present at sale.

I traded cars for quite some time, sold quite a few if i may say so myself and im sorry but if someone bought a car off of me with a perfectly functioning gearbox and a month later came back and claimed its broken so it therefore "was obviously broken at point of sale" (the point of sale where they drove it away, with the gearbox obviously working) i'd have told them to take a long walk off a very short pier sunshine.

I sympathise with your issue as i never like to see anybody buy a used car and have big trouble with it, thats not what (the vast majority) of dealers want to see happen, but you cant constantly blame the dealer for you buying a dud, a transmission error isnt something you can know about before it breaks, you drove the car and were happy with it, so it was clearly working, how does anybody know it'll break later? I think you've had very bad luck, but it happens. You may think im always on the side of dealers well im not, my comments in the BMW E46 thread should prove that. And in fairness, if i was on the receiving end of your offer to merely provide parts, 9 times out of 10 i'd probably go for it, even if it was outside of warranty period and not covered anyway (buyers need to realise dealers go with warranty providers for the interests of protecting their own profits as well as assisting customers) to show a level of effort and hopefully would be able to rely on future recommendations.

If that fault was present at the time of sale you wouldnt of got the car home, which you claim you did, rendering ,in my view, that pile of tosh from the sales of goods act completely redundant. Bad luck.

Edited by jamie745 on 18/07/2011 at 03:38

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - FP

Too long a post to warrant reading.

Suggest you keep things brief and to the point.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745
Deleted (offensive).

Edited by Avant on 20/07/2011 at 00:28

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - FP

Congratulations...

...on being brief and childish. Your earlier post was certainly a whole load of something or other.

At least I don't need to be rude, insulting and vulgar.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - bonzo dog

Hi Chester, sorry to hear of your troubles.

The problem with a car of this price is that it is deemed to be cheap, & I guess is getting on in life with some miles on the clock?

The courts do take these factors into account when determining the seller's liability.

Saying that, any fault that develops inside 6 months is presumed to be there at purchase; the question is would the court feel that such faults were resonable on a car of such price, age & mileage?

As it's your money not mine I could say go legal but I would rather advise taking trading standard's advice, whatever it may be.

Please let us know what they say & good luck

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

Saying that, any fault that develops inside 6 months is presumed to be there at purchase

Which it obviously wasnt because he drove it for 500 miles. If it was present at time of purchase he wouldnt of driven them 500 miles.

Ok if i declare that i "presume" the earth to be flat does that make me right?

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - unthrottled

This is going in circles. The underlying problem that killed the transmission was unlikely to have developed suddenly-so it was probably present at the time of sale even if the symptoms weren't. Whether it is reasonable to expect the dealer to pay for the repair is debateable. The sale of goods act is very vague regarding older cars.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - bonzo dog

Ok if i declare that i "presume" the earth to be flat does that make me right?

You are doing it again Jamie - instead of simply putting forwards a reasoned arguement, you want to argue.

As it happens, once again I agree with you - that "presumed" should not be in place but what you or I think is irrelavent, the law says that faults that develop in the first 6 months are presumed to be there at purchase, hence come under Sale Of Goods Act. It's about increasing consumer protection.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

Increasing consumer protection? I dont see how blatant lying and untruths can be dressed up as consumer protection. To me, its purposeful lying in order to put traders out of business. You cannot protect consumers against the realities of the real world, its about time people were made to make their own decisions instead of running off crying to Government or courts because they've made a bad purchase. Protecting consumers by claiming a fault was there 6 months ago which wasnt, im sorry but thats just moving goalposts and further reason for businesspeople to move abroad. Because FACT, not presumption but FACT shows that fault WAS NOT THERE because if it was, he wouldnt of driven 500 miles with it. Get any half decent solicitor and mechanic to point that out and its no case to answer im afraid.

You cannot pretend things existed which didnt as a means to "protect consumers."

s*** happens. Get over it.

The point of a court is to deal with facts, not "presume" anything. i thought we reached a point as a country where we could work on FACT not presumption. If the OP is that bothered he ought to sought proper legal advice not an excerpt from a horribly out of date piece of legislation (which advocated lying in itself, hardly democratic). And im sorry but this one is a non starter.

Edited by jamie745 on 18/07/2011 at 19:42

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - bonzo dog

OK Jamie, back to basics:-

  1. SOGA says goods must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale
  2. If the goods fail after time of sale then the problem falls outside of SOGA.
  3. However, because faults present may not be apparent immediately then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty). This is the increased consumer protection, as consumers are not expected to be experts & may feel that a defect is simply a common trait of that particular vehicle - it is only sometime afterwards they realise it is a fault

So, in this case it is entirely concievable (but by no means definite) that the transmision had a defect at time of sale but which did not actually fail for 4 weeks & 500 miles.For reference: - http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html#Q4IknowIcandemandmymoneybackwithinareasonabletimebuthowlongisthat

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty).

He drove it for 500 miles with a fault he claims renders it undrivable. Proves the fault wasnt there at point of sale and retailer ensured goods conformed to contract.

*washes hands*

Thats that one sorted. Lovely job.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - Collos25

Your tomes are at the best boring most are unreadable and a little child like .

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

Well im rubber and...you're...glue.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - Collos25

Run along now and get your nappies changed.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - Avant

HJ is actively seeking a replacement for Lucy as legal adviser, but it's difficult to replicate the arrrangement that we had with her.

Whether or not we have a professional adviser, anyone is of course welcome to post their opinions, but please can they be (a) brief and to the point, and (b) helpful to the original poster who raised the question.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - monian

This site has the well earned reputation of being honest, helpful, entertaining, enjoyable, friendly and generally a nice place to visit and spend time for a while. A bit like the cosy chair in the snug in front of the fire.

Occasionally one reads responses to the writer which are - hostile, intimidating, belligerent, unfriendly and little wonder, scares them off. This thread is a classic example of some unhelpful and inhospitable responses to the author which are not in the spirit of which most of us would aspire to.

Ian

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - Avant

I quite agree, Ian, and we have had a complaint quite reasonably made to the moderators' E-mail address on the same issue, and about the same poster.

We encourage free speech, but Jamie745, we perhaps haven't been tough enough. If you can't show the maturity to do as I ask in the post two above this one, we will have to censor your posts. We will certainly do so if you use swear words or are gratuitously offensive to other posters.

Edited by Avant on 20/07/2011 at 01:04

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - chester37

Ian ... great words of wisdom.

I had thought of replying to some responses on here but they really did not warrant my time.... shame some people spoil the positive responses of others who clearly are keen to help... I will probably be acused now of not wanting to hear or read responses that I do not agree with... hey ho....

to update this thread, profeesional advise has been taken both Legal and TSO. Both helpful and things are moving forward. The advise was the same in both cases and court action will follow shortly...

updates in due course

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

Well good luck in getting your money back or car repaired, i just hope it doesnt put another dealer out of business due to a fault which they couldnt possibly of known about. Perhaps im being too kind to him, when i sold cars i never sold anything which i didnt have 100% faith in, perhaps he has done so on this occasion.

Avant, people dont like being told that they're wrong and if my wording may go over the top sometimes i still feel i've raised valid points, if people can be bothered to read them. And you didnt get on the rest of the forums case for jumping on the student who failed to stop after an accident when i was the only one who stuck up for her, everybody else was offensive and sloughtered her without mercy, i didnt see you sticking up for the OP then.

Edited by jamie745 on 20/07/2011 at 20:20

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - chester37

jamie i am quite sure you were a reputable dealer and i am pleased you never sold anything that you were not 100% about... this dealer, from the moment i mentioned a problem ( and i was not specific in the first instance just an issue with the car) , will not discuss, will not look at the car, will not offer any assistance at all, he will not speak to me, return letters, the only words i have had are " i am not going to do anything', I even went to see him and was told he was out dont know when he will be back, tried the next day same thing... now regardless of the issue is that honestly good honest customer service ?

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

Well thats shed more light on matters, if you'd have pointed this out sooner i wouldnt of been so defensive of the dealer, your earlier posts made it sound like something totally different had happened.

A dealer which will barely even listen or meet the customer face to face to discuss an issue or even make an attempt to help in some way deserves very little sympathy. As i said i never sold cars i wasnt 100% sure about, reputations are easily lost and difficult to gain, and being a home trader its difficult to get taken seriously in the first place, especially if you're selling anything other than bangers, so i worked very hard to make sure that a) there'd be no reason to bring a car back to me and b) if they did, i could help them out in some way. Now in three years i only had two cars come back, which i think is a pretty decent record. The second one was a Fiesta which a woman bought for her daughter who'd just passed her test, i took it as part ex on something else and it had 10 months of mot left, was in very good nick, i drove it round the block and found no problems with it. About a month later she rang me up saying there was a serious juddering problem at any sort of speed, turned out to be wheel weight issues, i drove over 40 miles to where the girl worked to get the car one day, took it down to my mechanic, got it fixed and back to her before she needed to drive it home, all fixed. I made an effort to help and thats what i'd expect most dealers to do, at least hear the customer out or take an interest in the problem. Sometimes it can lead to recommendations and a better sale, on this occasion it didnt, but who knows.

(By the way the other one came round my house one day with the car about three weeks later, claiming it had all sorts of problems, i arranged a day to take it off him and get it fixed and he never showed up)

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - FP

I'm probably on a hiding for nothing by taking this up, but here goes.

"...people dont like being told that they're wrong..."

Sometimes people who are wrong need to be told - not unkindly or rudely, I should add. And they should accept the fact that in life there are others who do not agree with them and whose views still count for something.

"...i still feel i've raised valid points, if people can be bothered to read them..."

Therein lies a problem. Long, verbose posts don't get read.

"...you didnt get on the rest of the forums case for jumping on the student who failed to stop after an accident when i was the only one who stuck up for her, everybody else was offensive and sloughtered her without mercy..."

Not true; but plenty of people rightly pointed out that if one was being morally scrupulous, the driver in question had failed to comply with the letter and spirit of the law. Jamie didn't like that, because he took a different view and got upset about it and, to be fair, pointed out that the thread had drifted away from the advice sought by the OP.

Finally - it is not a good idea to complain about the moderators publicly. The obvious response would be an invitation to leave the forum, on the basis that if someone doesn't like the way it's run, why are they here?

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - concrete

Sorry for your problem chester. Not much help but I seem to recall from previous threads that £2000 or 10 years old were the low water marks for cars. Below that, no warranty, unless specifically given by the seller. The Sale of Goods and Services Act is vague on this point too. If the dealer had pointed out the legal position instead of being an idiot you may not have been any better off but at least knowing where you stand helps. I don't think a small claim would stand up, to be honest. I know it goes against the grain but maybe if you can get £250 from the warranty and get a 2nd hand autobox fitted you will at least still have a car for some time to come. If the costs don't stack up, then you should get a few hundred for scrap. Meanwhile I would tell trading standards so they are aware of this rogue, and tell anyone else who will listen what a rotten experience you had. Maybe it will put some people off from buying off him. What goes around comes around, and some day he will get his just desserts, mark my words. Good luck. Concrete

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - chester37

now turns out the invoice and payment were made to / issuedby a company that was dissolved 2 years ago.... i wonder if HMRC would be interested to have a look ...

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - concrete

Not only HMRC for company tax but for VAT. The Police must also take an interest with that information and Trading Standards. I would contact the lot and follow it up with a letter confirming what you told them. One or more of them could make life very awkward for the so called 'dealer'. Go for it, you have nowt to lose. Cheers Concrete

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - chester37

Thanks Concrete... ....and now my c/c issurer has indicated that there "may well be a breach of contract under the sale of goods act" so they are going to act aswell ...happy to update is folks are interested....

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - chester37

Just to update this thread I have received a full refund under section 75 which is good news.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - Avant

Delighted to hear this and thanks for letting us know. Congratulations on not giving in: the British are all too ready to accept poor service, and that's why dealers like that think they can get away with it. Patience can be an overrated virtue.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - jamie745

Fantastic news well done.

used car fault dealer refuses to help! - chester37

and 8 months on setlled for finally consequential loss as well... and i kept to car which actually got scrapped....

 

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