HJ has steered me firmly away from the V40TD and made some alternative suggestions, including the Focus, Civic and 323. My head does the sums and agrees that these are all worthy suggestions. I have to admit the FocusTDcI will give the 45+mpg I'm seeking, is a fairly handsome car and will be given due consideration. Not sure about that 323 though.....
At this point my heart takes a firm grip of my head and draws me back into Autotrader, pointing out a 156JTD Veloce Sportwagon (19k on an X with leather and all the trimmings) which I can get for £10k from an Alfa dealer if I apply enough pressure in the right places.
I know Alfa haven't had the best reputation, but I've also heard that the JTD ain't a bad lump and this car is dripping with equipment.
Should I be sectioned? Am I doomed to buy this car and live with it's "features" (aka breakdowns) whilst admiring its gorgeous lines? Should HJ take a large plank of wood and batter me until I accept the futility of this line of thinking and buy a Mundano or a Forgettable Focus? Will I be barred from further discussions?
The answers lie with you... cos I can't make my mind up!
No Dosh (because form beats function every time)
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I personally like to have more than 4 cylinders esp when driving a diesel. I believe that the 2.4 jtd has 5 but the down side will be fuel economy. I don't believe that combined you will get much (if at all) above 40-42mpg, which still aint bad.
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Personally, I think the 156 is one of the best looking cars going at the moment and I have heard the JTD is not a bad lump. However, due to the reliability of Alfas in general, there is no chance that I would buy one, but I do know of many people who have taken them on under company car schemes. Just imagine if the 156 was manufactured Ford. Would it be one of the best selling cars of all time???????
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No you are not mad. I have had 2 Alfa 156's. not jtd but they have been totally reliable. Both 2nd hand ie.All teething problems sorted. Find a good dealer & or specialist ( not always easy) & away you go. Dont believe the negative comments on Alfa build quality & reliability, lots of which is based on rumour & ancient history. Check out www.alfaowner.com for background interest & info.
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Have to agree with geoffster but would echo his comments about main dealers. Some are a downright disgrace. However, find a good specialist (worth joining the Alfa Romeo Owners Club to get access to a nationwide directory) and you'll be hooked. Certainly your choice is high on my list for the next vehicle (but I would say that, wouldn't I?). :-)
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If you're worried about the reliability of a 156, how about a Seat Toledo TDi SE with 110 bhp? I know it won't be as fast as the Alfa, but it still has a reasonable amount of poke and will easily surpass 50+ mpg (my Leon averages 55mpg and is a very zippy machine). Very comfortable driving position in the Leon/Toledo - I understand that Alfas, like Fiats, are designed for orang-utans, i.e. long arm and short leg. Plenty of equipment in the Seat too, especially in SE trim which goes with the 110 bhp engine. Build quality is high. It's not beautiful like the Alfa, but not ugly either. Quite like the look of them myself, but then I would say that.
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My business is buying and selling Alfa's and i have to say the reliability problems are hugely exaggerated.
The 156 is a fantastic drive and without doubt the best looking saloon car available today IMHO.
The JTD is a rare beast and seems to hold its value well just make sure the service history is top notch.
Most of the problems relating to Alfa's stem from unbelievebly bad dealers. A visit to alfaowner.com will help you find a good specialist in your area (or even a good franchised dealer).
Go for it ! lifes too short to drive around in mundane saloons...
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"My business is buying and selling Alfa's and i have to say the reliability problems are hugely exaggerated."
Well as Mandy Rice-Davies would say ------
If you choose a diesel Alfa in preference to a petrol Alfa, presumably economy is high on your list of priorities. Surely nobody, but nobody, buys an Alfa with economy in mind.
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Buy the alfa and a cheap jap runabout. You can then admire the beautiful lines as it awaits the next repair and still run around in the jap box.
I know how you feel, I'm tempted by a citroen cx for the third time. I must be mad, but I love them....now where's that insulating tape and multimeter....
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Who knows "what Mandy Rice-Davies would say"? Gotta be at least 50 to remember that one.... :-)
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Only the Brits have so far failed to make the connection between diesel engines and fun. Alfa diesels sell well everywhere else in Europe, especially Italy. The advantage of a modern diesel engine is that you can choose to drive like a hooligan or an accountant as the fancy takes you, without having two cars to pay for. We'll figure it out eventually.
One thing I like about being British is that although we're often very slow on the uptake, once we get there we have a clever knack of persuading everyone it was our idea in the first place.
Chris
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ChrisR has hit the nail on the head. I want to be able to scream it around like a loon with that sub 10sec 0-60 when appropriate to do so but also want to be able to drive across europe at 40-45mpg complete with skis and vinho. Not sure I like the reference to accountants though. Too close to the mark.... I work in finance and insurance (but don't sell it!)
Time to find a good local alfa man methinks.
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>>"My business is buying and selling Alfa's and i have to say the reliability problems are hugely exaggerated."
Well as Mandy Rice-Davies would say
<<
Have'nt got a clue who the women is or what she does but i presume you mean my views are not impartial ?
Well fair point.. but i have owned many Alfa's before i even started selling them and i can genuinely say that i have never had a Alfa breakdown or fail to start e.t.c. It amazes me the number of people who will tut and say 'i would 'nt buy a Alfa because they rust .....' .One guy who said this to me owned a 7 year old Calibra with rotten wheel arches !.
Just compare a 12 year old Alfa with Vauxhall/Fords and its very obvious who still have corrosion problems.
Alfa's should have petrol engines to fully enjoy the driving experience but if the choice is between a ford or Alfa with a Diesel engine the Alfa would still come out tops..
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"Have'nt got a clue who the women is or what she does but i presume you mean my views are not impartial ?"
Well, you would say that, wouldn't you.
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"Have'nt got a clue who the women is"
Mandy Rice-Davies was, with Christine Keeler, involved in the biggest sex scandal of the 1960's that caused the resignation of the Minister for Defence and almost brought down the Government.
Miss Rice-Davies was in the witness box in the High Court and had claimed to have had s*x with Lord Astor. When the Judge (or counsel?) said that he had denied it, she famously replied " Yes well he would say that wouldn't he"
The motoring connection - the 2 girls used to be taken to their intimate parties in a Rolls Royce.
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Anyone who buys an Alfa gets high depreciation, a dubious car and the priviledge of getting lots of small dents from careless parkers.
Something about " a fool and his money.." comes to mind.
Alfa dealers. Make Alfa Daley look like an honest man:-)
madf
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>>Anyone who buys an Alfa gets high depreciation<<
The 156 has regularly been in the top ten of least depreciating cars....
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Was the Rice-davies incident known as the profumo or something like that ??
I believe Monty-python did a send up of the trial ? something about the judge being bias, "members of the jury you may retire to consider your guilty verdict".
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Steve,
Yes the Minister was Profumo. Chrisine Keeler was having an affair with him and a Russian spy.
The trial was for Stephen Ward who was accused of procuring both girls for prostitution(immoral purposes). He got away with it, in a manner of speaking - he committed sucicide!
C
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Took said Alfa for a spin yesterday. Still grinning. Incredibly direct and precise steering, excellent ride and seemed to have been hewn from rock rather than built. Very solid indeed. Compared favourably with a 3 year old 320d touring I recently had a lift in.
Interior was heavy on the gloomy. Black cloth rather than the leather in the ad (autotrader messed up)and the carbon-fibre dash rather than the brushed ali, but after a mid grey and faux walnut rover interior it was a massive improvement.
Shall be entering into a spot of negotiation with the dealer this week. After all, xmas is coming and cars aren't selling to fast right now :o)
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Glad to hear the test drive went well. The steering is one of the first things that grabs peoples attention when first driving an Alfa. Alfa have fitted 'Quick-rack' steering from about 1996 and really does give a direct feel to the driving experience (2.75 turns lock to lock,fastest production car steering i believe).
Good luck with the negotiations ....
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"..once we get there we have a clever knack of persuading everyone it was our idea in the first place"
I thought it was usually the other way round - everything from the electric light to the Web!
Agree about Alfas, though - I was going to make an analogy with gorgeous women, but I might get into trouble...
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"fastest production car steering i believe"
I think you might find the Citroën CX with speed-sensitive fully powered steering at 2.5 turns lock-lock from 1975 predates the Alfa a little. Unless we count the Citroën SM - 2.0 turns lock to lock - as a 'production car'............. :-)
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The madness has gripped me!
I've bought it. £10,195 plus my (frankly tired and in my eyes worthless) Rover. Picking it up on Saturday. Went for a non-leather Veloce Sportwagon JTD with just 7500 miles on an X in the end. Absotively posilutely delighted with the deal, including 6 months RFL and a 2 year underwritten warranty with a sensible claim limit.
I agree with the comments on the Toledo, but its not an estate/hatchback, so was excluded from the equation.
Ooh boy. Time to take a deep breath and cross my fingers..... please let this be reliable! Perhaps I should start a thread about which oil to use ;o]
No Dosh - cos I just spent it on this.
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Good luck with the Alfa, No Dosh. Keep us updated on how it goes.
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Sounds like a great deal. They look really nice. Let's hope it is reliable!
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Dear No Dosh,
The answer to your original question is "yes you are mad".
The reason is because you have fallen for motoring's favourite "honey trap".
Alphas look, drive and sound great and they're a good option as a company car where the risk to you is just inconvenience.
Sadly, of the eight or so that we had on our fleet, no less than six gave serious problems and dealer/manufacturer support was, ahem, risible.
Our fleet no longer allows them.
You can't outrun the police either, they merely follow the trail of bits that are falling off.
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No Dosh,
Enjoy your Alfa. Everybody tells me I'm mad 'cos I keep buying Citroens. Well, in 15 years I have yet to have a breakdown and that "Oh so complicated and unreliable suspension" and "dodgy electrics that are always going wrong" have meant that I have had to replace a few spheres and a couple of headlight and number plate bulbs.
I have always fancied an Alfa since the Guilietta Sprint Gt of the late '60s so perhaps I do have appalling taste!!
Philw
PS Expect desperate requests for help in Technical section in next few days due to complete collapse of old BX and "new" Xantia suspensions with burnt out looms as a bonus!!
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No Dosh, Enjoy your Alfa. Everybody tells me I'm mad 'cos I keep buying Citroens. Well, in 15 years I have yet to have a breakdown and that "Oh so complicated and unreliable suspension" and "dodgy electrics that are always going wrong" have meant that I have had to replace a few spheres and a couple of headlight and number plate bulbs.
Lucky you! I had a Xantia for a few years (from 55,000 to 69,000 miles IIRC) and had to have the suspension pump replaced which cost £600. Not nice. Even worse when I read that it was a known problem and they had upgraded the pump on later models, but not recalled or done anything about it.
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The answer to your original question is "yes you are mad".
You can't outrun the police either, they merely follow the trail of bits that are falling off.
Looks like I should carry a roll of sellotape with me then.....
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"Looks like I should carry a roll of sellotape with me then....."
Indeed, but this may unbalance the car as it would immediately become the strongest part of it's construction!
Only kidding, but we had loads of trouble with them so it's an eyes open job. If you get a good one - they are great fun. The pathetic support from dealers and Alpha compounds any problems you do get though.
It's just a shame that some of the more exciting Marques are not always the last word in reliability. As a fleet, it was getting far too much aggro to allow people to continue buying them.
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Duly noted Steve, but sometimes you just fall in love......
Fortunately I've been put in touch with a couple of independent Alfa specialists in the area who have a good reputation.
Having owned or been assigned 18 cars over the last 15 years, I have yet to find a "reliable" make, with the exception of Honda. I've had VWs, Vauxhall (cough), Ford, Toyota, Rover and Jeep. Manufacturers on the whole seem to play a numbers game on quality, accepting a 90% perfect car on the basis that only a small number of the faults will cause the customer to return to the dealer.
Time will tell. I shall post odd updates as and when anything does crop up.
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MarkyMark,
Sorry about Xantia, and maybe I have been lucky - but I have been lucky with 4 Citroens! I think you were done!! New hydraulic pump costs about £120 - 140. Relatively simple job to fit also. There was an upgraded pump fitted to later models but unfortuneately it's not possible to fit it to earlier ones.
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i HAD THE SAME CONCERNS WHEN BUYING A SPIDER FOR MY WIFE, BUT 25, 000 MILES OF TROUBLE FREE MOTORING AND CHEAP (RELATIVELY)RUNNING COSTS HAVE CHANGED MY MIND. NOW AITH 60,000 MILES ON THE CLOCK THE ALFA IS A JOY TO DRIVE, STICKS TO THE ROAD BETTER THAN ANYTHING I HAVE EVER DRIVEN (WITH PIRELLI PZEROS)AND STILL TURNS IN 37+ TO THE GALLON.
FIND A DECENT NON FRANCHISED GARAGE WITH A LOVE FOR ITALIAN CARS TO AVOID THE SICKENING MAIN DEALER LABOUR COSTS AND ENJOY.
I AM THINKING OF TRADING MY JEEP CHEROKEE (17/GALL) FOR A 2.5 JTD SO WOULD BE INTERESTED IN ANY FEEDBACK.
JPR
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I AM THINKING OF TRADING MY JEEP CHEROKEE (17/GALL) FOR A 2.5 JTD SO WOULD BE INTERESTED IN ANY FEEDBACK. JPR
Well, I've had the Alfa for 14 days now and haven't stopped grinning. The first tankful was used up with 75% town driving, a fair bit of which is over the dreaded speed bumps or was in heavy commuter/shopping traffic. This saw 36mpg versus an "offical" of 32mpg for urban.
Once the festivities are behind us and normal service and car use is resumed I'm confident of getting around the "combined" figure of 42.4mpg, more when on a longer journey.
Only niggle has been the boot release lever by the driver's seat being a bit reluctant to carry out its job description, but hardly life threatening.
Having a hydraulic clutch makes gearchanges a delight, although I would welcome a little more resistance from the throttle (drive by wire) as the pedal doesn't really "support" the foot, meaning you tend to have your foot under tension when you aren't planting it on the floor. After about a week I got used to this and haven't had any problems.
Big test is on 7 March when I'm blitzing down to the Alps for 9 days, four-up and wearing a hat (a roofbox). Last year it came to 780 miles each way, with driving time of 10hr 30, two up with no roofbox at 32mpg in a Rover 416. Will let you know how I get on.
No Dosh - but then who has?
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Sounds like you're pleased with it!
What the hell, why shouldn't you buy a car because you like the way it looks.
Whilst working in the trade some years ago I know there was only one Alfa dealership in the whole of Leicestershire (I know because I had to collect spares from there on a regular basis as part of my job).
As you probably know, Fiat, Lancia and Alfa are co owned. It was the Lancia Beta that was recalled in there thousands in around 1979 as there was a serious corrosion problem. The company just bought them back and scrapped them.
The old Alfas (early 80s) were no worst that their Fiat counterparts. Indeed my Uncle (God rest his soul) had a 1977 Alfetta 2.0 GTV. That was a truely wonderful car. As far as I'm aware he had no rust problems with it.
The problem is that you are buying a car made my a manufacturer that has had a colourful reputation, both good and bad. The GMs of this world are the ones resting on their laurels. Their customer service reputation has suffered in more recent years.
The comments about bad dealer service may have stemmed from a less than adequate support network. Bearing in mind that these comments came from someone over running a fleet of company cars, there may be scope for you to be particularly assertive with the service network when it comes to your own car.
The other thing you should do now is to locate a good independent Alfa specialist near you. I did this for my Xantia and the chap charges the same hourly rate as my local garage, who admits to hating these cars, and doesn't really know them over and above any other car. I also found that this chap has a very good network of cheap, second hand and refurbished components at his fingertips. He will definitely not go the "dealer supplied only" route.
All the best -
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Cheers Hugo,
Like yourself I had the good fortune to work in this trade a few years back so have been doing some sniffing around with some of my old contacts. Off the back of that I've been given the name of a couple of independent Alfa enthusiasts and am working on "special" rates with the local main agent.
(snips end off cigar) Ah lurve it when a plan comes together.....
As an aside, I can't help chuckling at the lengthy threads slating VW build quality.
No Dosh - but then who has?
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As an aside, I can't help chuckling at the lengthy threads slating VW build quality.
Never has a slating been so justified in my opinion!
All the best with the Alfa.
Hugo
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