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On countless occasion our Guru Honest John has suggested a Ford over the likes of Audi/Merc. etc., on the basis of good value for money.
Trouble is we are a country of badge snobs, and many of those considering what they imagine to be 'prestige' cars would rather die than have a Ford or a Vauxhall on the drive
Lowers the tone of the neighbourhood don't you know and the neighbours would think one has fallen on hard times. Mind you this malnly applies south of Watford Gap.
Working to an agreed budget when ordering my last company car prior to retiring. I chose a fully loaded Vauxhall Vectra 5 speed auto diesel, probably the most sneered at car on the planet. It was a joy. VERY comfortable due to the endless seat and steering wheel adjustments , all the power I needed, some fresh air courtesy the sunshine roof, cruise etc. After 100k miles it looked and drove like new.
A colleague chose a bog standard BMW 3 Series manual diesel because he could not bear to turn up at the golf club & be seen by friends in what he described as a blue collar council estate car. His wife admitted she did not want to be seen in a reps car', but was too thick to realise most 3 Series are supplied to salespersons. (So what?) He then spent several years moaning that the interior was cramped, the gear change notchy, and of the complete lack of luxury comforts.
We would often have to do a 200 mile drive in convoy and guess who arrived the most refreshed and relaxed? I really did have the last laugh, yet I was in a mere Vauxhall.
For my private us now I'm retired I went the classless route with a make that is renowned for engineering expertise and reliability. It's called HONDA.
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A colleague chose a bog standard BMW 3 Series manual diesel because he could not bear to turn up at the golf club & be seen by friends in what he described as a blue collar council estate car. His wife admitted she did not want to be seen in a reps car', but was too thick to realise most 3 Series are supplied to salespersons. (So what?) He then spent several years moaning that the interior was cramped, the gear change notchy, and of the complete lack of luxury comforts.
Deserves all he gets. "blue collar council estate car" indeed. It's a box with four wheels that gets you around. Nothing more. If you personally want something luxurious with all the toys, that's absolutely fine, but people who buy a depreciating tin box as a status symbol deserve no sympathy whatsoever when it all ends in tears.
If Proton make a car that ticks all the boxes I need, at half the price of the nearest competitor, I'll buy the b***** Proton. Couldn't give a stuff what others think.
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Gosh the old dilemma, form over function. It genuinely is a worry to anyone who takes their cars seriously I suppose. I know it certainly used to be to me. As a result I spent far too much on cars which met my style statement standards but often didn't fit with my real needs in practical or indeed financial terms.
However, no real regrets, things have different values depending on where you are in your life and your head. I enjoyed some of my dalliances with frippery and some of them definitely helped in the rutting seasons of my younger life so maybe they weren't such a bad investment after all.
Now though, I take a much more pragmatic view when choosing cars. If I am paying the bill it has to meet all my practical needs in usage terms first, then it has to be affordable without really noticing the cost or at least not being worried about it. If it can do all of the above and there is enough financial slack left for a bit of indulgence then so be it.
There isn't really a right or wrong answer to your question other than to remind yourself that the most pleasing cars in the end are the ones which do most things you need them to do without fuss and don't stretch you financially while doing so.
Cars are for getting you, your nearest and dearest and your stuff from place to place so you can do other things. Not much more. The rest is mainly fluff.
However, fluff can be interesting too...
Good hunting!
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I think the successful manufacturers are those who listen to people like us, Humph - people who want both form AND function in one car, and thus answer the dilemma.
Ford got that message from Richard Parry-Jones: hence the success of cars like your splendid erstwhile Mondeo, which did the job of a workhorse but gave you a lot of driving pleasure as well.
Skoda have managed it too, with the advantage of a good, mainly family-owned, dealer network. With Audi, BMW and Mercedes, you'll love one of them at a time, and regard your choice (if you get it right) as the answer to their needs - but probably not the others.
BBBB has a good point also with Honda, although I'm not sure whether the new models are as goot drive as those of 5-10 years ago.
The only answer to Roly's question is to try each of the cars on his shortlist (which he could usefully widen beyond just the Audi and Ford) and see which comes nearest to satisfying him on both form and function.
Car purchase can be a purely rational matter, but for many of us who belong to forums like this because we're enthusiasts, it isn't wholly rational. There's no rational reason for spending an extra £7,000 on an Audi A4 over an Octavia with exactly the same mechanicals, just a good to drive, and lots more room for luggage. And I didn't. But If I had that extra £7,000 kicking around, would I go for the intangible feel-good factor that you get from driving an Audi? You know, I just might.
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Tend to agree with you Avant. Usually, despite the most careful of planning, car purchases are mainly about what feels right on the day you do it. The heart can be nearly as reliable as the head in these matters. A car you love but can't quite afford can be at least as pleasing as the one you can afford but don't really want. For a while anyway. Like I said earlier, it rather depends on where you are in your life and where your car choice fits with your other current priorities. Nothing in the least wrong with a bit of self indulgence providing it's not at the expense of something far more important.
For what it's worth I've have been delighted with some really silly purchases but have also at other times really appreciated some of the more mundane ones. I've come around to the view that the car itself is not the key to the satisfaction or the pleasure, call it what you will, but more down to what you did while you had it.
Many of us retain a fondness for the bashed up old jalopies of our youth. The cars were not necessarily the best but the times they allowed us to enjoy provide the happy memories.
I say to people, have what you want but make sure it's what you need too and don't spend your last buck on it. By and large if you follow that maxim you'll be happy with it.
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The fact so much of this country is full of badge snob idiots is why the likes of so called "prestige" manufacturers can make a car with a spartan interior and low levels of equipment yet get away with selling it to us at a 25% premium over a top spec Ford or Peugeot.
And its people like that with such an attitude is what put the Banks and then subsequently our country into such a mess. Buying things they couldnt afford because it looked nice. Sound familiar?
And lets be honest, are the German makes "exclusive" or "executive" anymore? I'd say in the 90s, a Mercedes would stand out as a classy car, yet now there's just as many Mercs as there are Ford's for sale. On an average drive to work you'll see plenty of BMW's, Mercedes and Audi's. Get over it people, they are not exclusive anymore, they're incredibly common. A BMW used to be exclusive, now you have to buy a 7 series to be "exclusive" because things like the 3 series - every b***** has one! And some 15 year old ones with high miles and low equipment can still cost more than a newer, lower mileage, more equipped car with a "rubbish" badge. I believe Jeremy Clarkson compared a BMW to a Mazda on Top Gear at some point and all the specs of the Mazda were better than the BMW, yet the BMW cost more money and will sell better.
The cars ive always loved have been the blue collar working class hero's, the Cortina, which at the time was Mercedes-esque reliability for Austin money, the car which showed the working class can drive reliable decent cars too. Things like the Ford Scorpio and the Granada Scorpio, with all the toys, gadgets, leather, equipment etc of the big German makes for a third of the money. But by the end of the 90s people had more money to spend, it was easy to get credit and peoples "aspirations" led to people more willing to pay extortionate finance on a low level BMW and pay 10 grand over 4 years to have it, than to buy a car which they could actually afford. And this eventually killed off things like the Ford Scorpio, Vauxhall Carlton, the big Peugeot's etc, the big cheap cars and its led to once prestige makes now being common as those makes are more accessible than ever before, and things like a Ford Mondeo ticking the box of being "exclusive" as Mondeo man has become 3 series man, or Skoda Octavia man. Who'd of thought it?
Edited by jamie745 on 08/05/2011 at 01:48
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It's human nature I'm afraid, Jamie: there's nothing you can do about it it except to do what you yourself have done - pick up decent but unfashionable cars, like your 406 and Scorpio, for low prices and enjoy driving them in the knowledge that you've got a lot of car for the money.
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The flip side is that it is my gain. Peoples dislike of a rubbish badge is my gain as its led to me picking up these cars cheap. Ok the Scorpio needs some work but we're getting that done cost effectivley then i'll decide what im going to do with it. People would rather have a BMW with cloth seats and windy windows than have my 406 Executive and thats fine by me.
And i dont see how a good badge benefits you, as i discovered when delivering a 57 plate BMW 645 to somebody last year that nobody lets you out of a side turning with a car like that.
Yet today in my 406, people stop and are like "come on through!!"
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I have to agree with almost everything that has been said in the last 4/5 posts sums up the UK mentality towards car ownership completely,great post by Humph backbridge as he said it depends where you are in life,i have a young growing family and my work miles put me in the diesel bracket so i wanted space,economy and reliability,so went for a Honda accord which i own myself and will keep for another five years,so for me it was function over form, but i don't have a monthly payment to worry about and can spend the money on things like family holidays instead,i could of got something more flashy but to be honest the accord has all the kit,gives peace of mind and is great value for money.
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I definitely agree with the point about a car being suitable for your particular time in life
When I started owning cars - mid 1970s - I used to change as often as possible, as much as possible, just for the sake of always having something different. This was the days of HP with 33% deposit and pay the rest in 24 months (ask your parents if that doesn't mean anything).
So as soon as I had a car, I was counting down to the time when I'd be able to change it for something else. Not because I didn't like it; just because I wanted to change for the sake of it. The joke is....now I can afford to change it more often if I wanted, but I just can't be bothered so I keep them much longer than I used to.
And back in those days when I changed alot, I used to deliberately go for stuff which was slightly off the beaten track. Never had any Fords in those days, they were just boring tin boxes (Cortinas and Escorts). I was a Vauxhall person just to be different; had several Opels which were always good; had a couple of Saabs. Even Rovers
Now, my last few have been Fords which I wouldn't have dreamed of 20 years ago; and my old habit of being wilfully different is coming back because I will avoid BMW/Merc, almost for the sake of it.
Nothing in car buying is rational. And nobody will ever understand your choice
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I wonder if that's why you chose Armstrong Sid as a nom de plume: if you'd been born a generation earlier you sound like just the sort of person who would have had an Armstrong-Siddeley. (I mean that as a compliment!)
Good quality British cars, not made in great quantities - just a bit different. Sadly not enough of the buying public had the will to be different, so Armstrong went bust in about 1960, following other 'different' makes like Jowett and Lea-Francis.
The nearest modern equivalent is Saab - and look what's happened to them.
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Using Armstrong Sid isn't completely random, I admit. I have a vague memory of seeing a few when I was a kid; they'd certainly all gone by the time I was driving. They just seemed a bit of an understated "Gentleman's Carriage", without the flash of a Roller. And for anyone who isn't sure what I'm talking about......
slatford.co.uk/Pictures%20of%20Cars/Armstrong%20Si...g
If I had been a driver in the 1950s, and still had my tendancy to be different for the sake of it. I would've gone for one of these
www.100cars.co.uk/images/C005-2%20Alvis%20TD21.jpg
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That Alvis is gorgeous AS. I think Stephen Fry drove a droptop version in a TV series about a country law practice.
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The fact so much of this country is full of badge snob idiots is why the likes of so called "prestige" manufacturers can make a car with a spartan interior and low levels of equipment yet get away with selling it to us at a 25% premium over a top spec Ford or Peugeot.
I'm sure there is some logic in this argument however ,the fact is that in my motoring career I have had new fords and vauxhalls as company cars over the years. Eventually I moved on to BMWs and latterly Audi's.
The absolute fact is that although I am not hard on cars, the Fords and Vxs I had all seemed loose and tired after 3 yrs and say 65K miles. In fact after 9 months or so, clunks and rattles started to appear on both. I own a Focus which we had since it was 8 months old, and whilst it is a good runabout everything rattles or vibrates thogh the car isn't 2 yet. All of the badge-snob cars I have had have still be rattle free and young feeling when I handed them back after 3 years, and in the case of my current car 4 years. Nor out of all of these cars (2 x VW Passat, 2 x 3 series BWW + 2 x Audi A4) have I ever had a more serious problem than a noisy wheel bearing.
If you are purely only interested in a cheap set of wheels then you are absolutely right, but personally I prefer quality to toys and twinkly bits of poor grade trim.
Edited by Roly93 on 09/05/2011 at 20:14
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But that argument doesnt cover the nitwit mentioned above who when he picked a company car (a car you dont own and get to give back) refused to buy a Vauxhall or something and ended up with a base model BMW because he was worried what people might think. What you just did is explained a logical, informed reason why someone might purchase a German car to keep, the person in question here was just a badge snob, which was my original point.
If you buy them because you (clearly) do quite high mileage and prefer the more robust build then fine, im not criticising that, its people who go "i cant be seen in a Ford! i'll pay double for a low spec BMW instead!" are the target of my criticism.
My 10 year old 406 doesnt have a single rattle, ding or feeling of tiredness, mind you its spent most of its life on a driveway on low mileage and my weekly commuting adds up to 48 miles but in reality i probably clock up 200 a week and its fine, but we'll see. Its alot of car for not much money in my opinion, the 406 Executive is a nice car. I drove a HDi one for 14k in one year and a local taxi firm used the diesels, 250k + on the clock and have no problems. So i dont totally buy the idea that only German makes at double the price are well built.
I have looked at them before, i considered a Mercedes C Class, ive looked at the 3 Series and 5 Series and i know theyre well made etc but to me they're just a bit too much money for what they are and the big point is that where as i can appreciate their quality, i dont WANT one. I never wake up and go "oooo i wish i had a 5 series!".
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You could buy Japanese - save the cash and have even less squeaks and rattles - plus some kit to go with your silence.
I could be cynical and say the German cars have to be screwed together well to withstand the assault care of the ride quality (or lack thereof).
I drove a 99 Rover 75 with 130K miles on it yesterday- it drove like a new car. The suspension and steering were perfect, not a squeak or rattle in sight. Being a connoisseur SE it had every bit of kit you could wish for too. My XM had no squeaks or rattles, nor did my Xantia or does my C5 – nor did any of my recent Jags (the old XJ12 had a few in the '80s). My mates 150K mile Mondeo has no squeaks and rattles – maybe you just didn't look after the Fords and Vauxhalls properly but treat your “premium” brand cars with kid gloves?
VWs and Audis are NOT put together any better than any other Eurobox, going by the BMWs I've driven (haven't owned a Beemer since the '90s) they don't seem to be anything special either - nice to drive though. ('til you hit a pothole.)
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Batch snobbery is a nonsens.
I drive a Ford Focus build in Germany witha French diesel engine.
Excellent car for me and my wife and i don't feel anything less than the BMW or Mercedes driver.What the neighbours drive is their bussiness live is to short to be bothered by trivalities.
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There are premium cars and there are premium cars.
The smaller "premium badge" cars from the like of Audi and BMW are no better than a number of the better workaday marques such as Honda and (these days) some Fords. Go further up the ranges though and the quality is there for all to see. I certainly don't ascribe quality to a badge.
It's such a shame that the old-school Japanese luxobarges with non-premium badges aren't still around. Things like the old Nissan QX -- just as well built as the German cars of the period, every toy and gadget present and very cheap at a couple of years old. OK they weren't sports cars but brilliant to waft along the motorway.
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I think Volvo is still the biggest victim of badge snobbery, that image of an old man in a boxy Volvo estate still haunts the firm. But their current lineup are nice cars, i'd rather have an S40 over a 3 series.
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I think Volvo is still the biggest victim of badge snobbery, that image of an old man in a boxy Volvo estate still haunts the firm. But their current lineup are nice cars, i'd rather have an S40 over a 3 series.
I dont think its badge snobbery with Volvo its more like badge stigma. I had a big Volvo estate as a company car some years ago, and it was a comfortable mile muncher but on the downside, it was tank like and had no concession whatsoever towards good fuel consumption. Unfortunately Volvo still says middle england and blazer wearing rotary club member to me !
Isnt the V50 just an expensive Focus estate ?
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The trick is, well I think anyway, the trick is to ignore the badge's supposed meanings and concentrate on its real values.
That might still mean you still choose an Audi over a Ford or BMW over a Vauxhall but if you do, you're doing it for the right reasons. You'd be doing it because the car you choose has some genuine benefit or feature you desire.
I've had a few cars with "premium" badges and some of them were indeed very good. I've had plenty with workaday credentials and some of them were very good too.
I look at it now from the point of view of what do I need it to do, what is my budget and what is therefore the best car I can get which fulfills both those criteria while standing a good chance of being reliable while I have it. Beyond that it really wouldn't worry me at all what it was "saying" to the outside world.
So yes, I'd buy an Audi if that met the brief just as I'd buy a Ford if that did so better.
So that's no help at all then is it?
:-)
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It's a great deal of help, because as usual, Humph, you understand what a lot of people think.
Most car buying is a way in which a individual can express his/her free will - more so than a house where finance is much more of an overriding consideration. Without trying to stereotype car buyers, I can think of some examples of this expression of will.
You want a car to a do a job of work, but you also want it to be fun to drive and have a turn of speed when needed - you'll have a Ford or a Skoda.
You want reliability to get you from A to B - you'll have something Japanese, probably petrol-powered.
You want to drive your car safely but when possible to its limits - you'll have a BMW or a Porsche.
You want to feel good every time you get into your car - you'll have an Audi.
You want to feel good and patriotic every time you get into your car - you'll have a Jaguar.
You want lots of space and luxury, but think six-figure sums for a Rolls or Bentley are excessive - you'll risk being called a German taxi-driver and have a Mercedes.
You value comfort and a soft ride - you'll have something French (or you live in Oxfordshire where Cross Roads Garage is a particularly good Renault dealer).
You aren't fussy about cars and you'll drive what your other half or fleet manager tells you to - you'll have a Vauxhall.
You value safety and seat comfort above all - you'll have a Volvo.
You don't need a lot of space for people and things (or you have a Skoda estate for when you do) but you love driving - you'll have a Mini (like SWMBO's), or an MX-5, or an old Z3 like mine.
Edited by Avant on 11/05/2011 at 00:00
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For the price of 4-5 year old Audi A4 over here in Spain you can get a new SEAT Exeo... which is essentially exactly the same car. Yet I don't think I've ever seen one on the road...
Around here:
Young people with no money will drive a Peugeot 2xx/3xx
Young people with some money will drive a sporty SEAT
Young people with lots of money will drive an Audi A3
Young people with too much money will drive a Porsche Cayenne
Older people, regardless of financial background, will drive a Peugeot Partner. Availability of money simply determines how old they get before being replaced with a new one... one E-class driving neighbour replaces his every year, another neighbour has only just replaced his 15+ year old one.
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Assuming they are slightly tongue-in-cheek, I largely agree with the opinions in the previous posts, and can I add one specific example which 100% proves the point about certain people buying certain cars.
Have you ever seen anyone under the age of 55 driving a Ford Fusion?
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Bizzare. I can't imagine why someone would replace their car every year with a brand new identical model, even if they had the money to throw away. What a load of hassle, delivery delays, post delivery checks, niggles sending it back to the dealer to fix, paperwork.
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Dealers regularly give good deals on the Fusion to be used as disabled cars etc on a three year lease. I cant imagine anybody purchasing one with their own money so this may be the reason you always see older people in them.
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