VR6 engine isn't very easy to tune. You can chip them but you'd be lucky to get 20 bhp out of it. A Wetterauer chip for about £300, fitted will give you 16 bhp. All in all, without spending enough money to get yourself an Audi S3, you'll be lucky to get 210 bhp, with chip, filter, exhaust and so on.
Not sure about the timing chain but chains aren't usually service items, unlike belts. Doesn't mean they can't do damage though. I assume you're servicing the car yourself and don't have the knowledge that the chain is about to pop?
Probably not worth bothering with tuning this car - it's reasonably fast as it is, doesn't respond to chipping so you won't transform it that easily or cheaply, and is the kind of car that is more about subtle, relaxed performance than being a fire breathing monster. Might sound dull but that's what it's meant to be.
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Wonderful car! I've had a Highline since new in December 1996 and can't imagine parting with it. Dull it ain't, not that I thrash it; it's the smooth power delivery and quietness I enjoy, and it hugs the road firmly enough for my taste. As for the timing chain, I'd ask a main dealer and then knock 25% off the mileage interval they recommend, as I'm inclined to heed HJ's firm advice on belts and chains: don't push it to the manufacturer's recommended mileage.
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I am servicing the car myself. I've fitted a new all round suspension and a new clutch on my driveway! I call that knowing what i doing !
Just wondered about the chain because VW do state a service interval.
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Haven't got any advice, although dealer -25% sounds like a good idea to me.
Oh and I don't think the VR6 is dull - I like the car a lot but it's not a Max Power, Civic Type R style screamer that some people seem to think it should be.
Nice motor. Wish I could afford the insurance.
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I own a 95 VR6, and would never consider getting it chipped. Chipping the car means that it is running on the edge of its capabilities, therefore it is more likely to go bang!
I know of several people who have had certain other motors chipped with various results. Some are good, whilst others (and most) have left problems.
Ever thought of a stainless?
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Chipping the car would not leave it on edge! the vr6 engine is very detuned anyway , 174bhp for a 2.8l v6 is nowhere near its potential. The 2.0l 16v lump is also detuned to 150bhp and is said to be just as comfortable when chipped to 170bhp.
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It depends on what other mods you are going to do the car. Chipping alone is not a very good option (IMHO)
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Just wondered about the chain because VW do state a service interval.
I cannot understand the question. Do you mean VW don't specify an interval?
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That is correct. VW do not specify anything to do with the chain in the service schedule.
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Correct the vr6 has 2 chains. But there is only one chain linking the crank to the intermediate shaft, and two linking the intermediate to the camshafts. Is the bottom chain prone to failure?
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Changing camshafts can give you extra 16bhp, filter and exhaust another 10% approx, gives you approx 200bhp.
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Is the above to make absolutely SURE that the vehicle has more power than it's stodgy chassis can handle?
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stodgy chassis? surely you mean soft stodgy springs, new kit easy enough to fit.
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The most noticeable thing when i bought my mk3 vr6 was its superb road holding(with a new suspension) compared to the old mk2 golf.
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The best chassis for the VR6 is the Corrado.
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I wanted a corrado but i am a family man so i had to settle for a golf. I think the golf chassis is up to the job, it was the standard suspension that was a bit poor.
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It was more a case of the Corrado being exceptional I think.
If VW hadn't made such a horlicks of introducing it by using the asthmatic 16v to launch it (and in left hand drive - if I remember), and given it the G60 and VR6 in the first place - it would have been a greater success IMHO.
Probably the best handling front wheel drive car I ever tried.
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Add a supercharger and a new chip...255bhp on a golf vr6...now i call that a firebreather.
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You are correct cos, the Golf VR6 is a 'firebreather'
EIP tuning offer a bolt-on stage 1 turbocharger kit that produces 330+ HP with no internal modifications, and if you have got money to burn you can buy a stage 6 turbo kit that delivers 680+ HP but with internal work needed.
The chassis is more than up to handling the power as EIP have proven with there 800+ HP AWD project car which does a 1/4 mile in just over 10 secs.
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Hang on, there is a lot of mis-information and power figures floating around this thread. Why would any manufacturere detune an engine with a different chip, why would they want to loose 20bhp?
The VR6 engine is not easy to tune. The inlet ports are small. Decent porting produces little benefit. The 2.8 engines make about 165-170, the 2.9 about 5-10hp more. How can you expect to achieve 16bhp with a chip, that means that the fuel mixture at some point is incorrect, i dont believe VW would spend all the money they do and release a car with a flaw like that. manufacturers spend a fortune testing and optimising exhaust systems on modern cars. I find it hard to believe some bloke in a shed who spends half his budget on advertising will produce something better. Anyway, i cant see the exhasut on a VR6 is the limiting factor in its performance potential. Silly air-filters will not produce real power gains either. Full induction kits might give you 1% more bhp, but they are worse at filtering than standard mann paper filters, and they make a racket.
If you increase the power all the way up to 255bhp, wouldnt it be a good idea to actually modify the fuel delivery system and use a fully mappable system rather than "chipping" the existing system. Are you sure it can flow enough fuel for that much power? So many companies now sell chips. Bolt on stuff is so easy to sell, and a doddle to fit. What really increases power is engine work, but poeple dont like to do that because it takes time and skill, and isnt as profitable.
Also, i find it hard to agree that a mk.3 vr6 handles better than a mk.2 with decent new suspension. how can you account for all that extra weight up front?
Ben
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mk2 skids everywhere, mk3 has traction control!
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VW detuned the engine cos of fuel consumption and emissions. Personally i would trust companies such as C&R Enterprises and TSR who make a living out of performance parts( if they weren't very good they would go bust quickly). They both said the vr6 is very tuneable if you got a few quid to spend. These companies are not the only reputable companies selling performance parts for the vr6. As for the air filter, i fitted a k&n induction kit to my vr6 , i got it dyno tested before( when i first bought the car) and after(recently). It tested 180 bhp after the cone filter was fitted, and up to 15% extra torque at 3500rpm.
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What a load of crap (in my humble opinion of course).
I have had experience of TSR engines. Firstly, they dont even do their own head work. I know loads of people who have had TSR engines blow up. I know i guy who bought a TSR 2.1ktr 8v engine which they claimed made 180, on a reputable dyno the actual figure produced was much less.
Ask Dave Baker about the vr6 engine. He couldnt get much out of it.
15% extra torque, seriously how do you think this is possible? To get that much more power at that engine speed you are going to need to burn a lot more fuel. I cant believe you are suddenly goingto get that much better cylinder fill from changing an air-filter. plus the k&n will be letting all kinds of crap in, which means you wont be maiking that much more power for long. Whoever dynoed your car is pulling your leg. A 2.8vr6 should make about 150@wheels what does yours make?
Ben
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won't go to tsr then! you could get sued for say that!
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I could but they would loose.ha ha. I hope. flame proof jacket on etc
Seriously on the VBRA web-site they tested the filtering properties of many "performance" filters. Only itg did really well. I think almost all the rest were worse than standard paper. check out www.pumaracing.co.uk this guy knows MUCH more than i do about engines.
Ben
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Ben,
Not being funny mate but what is your experience of tuning engines, mine is pretty much nil (i just work on standard cars). I ask this because plenty of reputable companies(i've only heard from other people) offer performance products for all the high spec golfs. You seemed to be quite clued up about it but are you telling me they all talk poo?
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It is not a good idea to slander companies. TSR build their own project cars that have won many races (polo cup) and i have always found them to produce well built engines and know what they what are on about when it comes to performance parts.
As for the VR6, have you forgotten it is a 2.8 6 cylinder engine that only produces 175 BHP as standard....the 1.8 16v produces 140 BHP, that means that, that extra litre is only producing an extra 35 BHP. The VR6 is majorly detuned! It is set-up as standard to provide good economy and smoothness, with performance parts you can unleash the true power that the VR6 is capable of.
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I agree the message was mis-guided. I just get a bit fed up with all the crap "some" people put around.
The car paul rose drove to win the slick 50 championships had an engine built by Dave Baker of Puma Race engines, even says on his site.
Inlet valve area is the biggest influence on power output. If you take the 1.8kr engine and bore it to 2ltr it makes little more power. If you port the head properly you can get as much as 20bhp. I thin the VR6 is a great engine- for the road. But if you want to build a highly tuned engine, you can get far more out of something like a mi-16 1900cc peugeot engine.
I have just heard a lot of people having toruble with tsr. Any performance product is likely to be unreliable. But its how the company treat you. When you haven an engine in which blows up after 30k miles which cost thousands and has been so badly built the compression reading vary immensly between cylinders you have to wonder. Companies who make performance products and advertise are not the ones to use. top rac engine builders survive through word of mouth because there products win. When the falg drops the b******* stops. VR6 engines are hard to tune. Porting might only get you 15bhp which as a percentage gain is really quite poor. I think this is a fair comment to make. If you want ot tune this engine and have the cash, id go forced induction.
Ben
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You're saying the best thing to go for is turbo or super charger rather than cylinder head work?
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I owned 2 Vento VR6s and the best thing for me which I fitted to both was the vsr, the variable intake manifold, originally designed for the vr6 but then deemed too expensive for production models. This was then marketed by VW Motorsport and latterly by Schrick-I had these fitted along with rechip by AmD near Oxford. The result was ~ 20bhp increase but more importantly a big improvement in low down torque, a deficit IMO of the VR6. Trouble is, not cheap, ~ £1500. There are sometimes second hand ones available. The current 205bhp V6 I believe has the vsr equivalent incorporated and having owned a Bora V6 4Motion, the VR6 + vsr comes pretty close re engine performance (although of course the Bora/Golf have 6speed gearbox).
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I think i should apologise. The tone in my messages was negative. I shall try to make only positive comments in future. Its messages like mine that get slanging matches going etc. One reason i read this board is because of the considered experienced responses participants of this board make.
It all depends how much you want to spend and how far you want to go with the engine. Porting doesnt produce a big benefit on this engine.i Have seen figures reported as low as 12bhp. I have heard with manifold, cams, and other bits you can get about 200bhp form this engine. thats quite a lot of money for not much power. But if you can afford a turbo you could get some serious power. These people sell turbo kits: www.eiptuning.com/vr6turbo/stage1vr6turbo.html
or if you are lucky enough to get an answer you could call Dave Baker at Puma Race engines if you are serious about modifications.
With regard to AMD i wouldnt take too much notice of their power claims. A while back they were alledgedly found to be selling a performance modification to the air-box of some VAG cars that actually made them produce less power. They covered this up by fiddling the power losses through the transmission. But the wheel hp figures told the real story.
A friend of mine drives an '89 Golf 16v Turbo. His friend, from whom he bought he car, had it dyno tested at AMD and then at stealth racing about a week later. The figures varied enormously. AMD claimed way over 200bhp after mapping something like 230bhp. At stealth, on rollers about 1 month old, working to bosch and vag transmission loss figures it just produced 190bhp. I know which i believe.
Many people have probably got very good service from TSR and AMD, and i hope they continue to do so in the future. I just think they are a little naughty with their power claims etc.
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Fair enough Ben, I think my vr6 is fast enough as it is. Anyway i haven't £1300 to spend on a shrick manifold. Probably leave it well alone.
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1300 is rather a lot for a manifold! Probably the cheapest way to increase power would be to get some cams ground, i would anticipate this will cost about £300.
Ben
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I think C&R do regrinds for under £200. Don't fancy fitting it though, i'm used to old k-jet golf engines with timing belts.
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