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There are so many risk factors in this story leading to this outcome that it would be deemed tasteless to list them. Once we get past all the 'how terrible it must have been for you' stuff, I for one am glad she's now off the road, except that it's not for long enough. Unfortunately, in all that time any alcohol would probably have been burned off.
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......... I for one am glad she's now off the road except that it's not for long enough. Unfortunately in all that time any alcohol would probably have been burned off.
There was no mention in the article that she had been drinking alcohol.
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its over for the rover
she must have been bored hanging around though
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There was no mention in the article that she had been drinking alcohol.
Not explicitly, but it said this: Kerrianne Timberlake, from Leyland, who was last seen leaving the Plough Lane pub
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Once we get past all the 'how terrible it must have been for you' stuff I for one am glad she's now off the road except that it's not for long enough. Unfortunately in all that time any alcohol would probably have been burned off.
William Stevenson, that's all speculation. The report doesn't say whether she had drunk any alcohol; in facts it offers no information at all on what actually caused the accident.
Obviously, the question of whether the driver had been drinking is one the first issues I would expect the police to investigate, but from the info in the report, it's quite possible that she had a soft drink after work and then lost control on the motorway after experiencing a blowout of a front tyre. I don't think it's fair to leap to any conclusions on the basis of a brief report which provides so few details.
I'm just glad that neither she nor anyone else appears to have been seriously injured. Rather than speculate, please could we just leave it to the police to investigate?
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she looks pretty gay and happy in the photo
no cuts or anything
oh and she left the pub at 5.30 pm.i summised she was a barmaid rather than a drinker
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she looks pretty gay and happy in the photo no cuts or anything oh and she left the pub at 5.30 pm.i summised she was a barmaid rather than a drinker
I agree that she look pretty, and happy but not quite sure what her sexuality has to do with it.....
''who was last seen leaving the Plough Lane pub in Grimsagh at about 1945 BST on Thursday. ''
1945 equals 7.30pm
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I agree that she look pretty and happy
...and it's obviously a family snap, not taken after the accident. But BB might well know that - I wasn't sure whether he was being serious.
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Rather than speculate please could we just leave it to the police to investigate?
No. One of the features, and it must be admitted the entertainment, of these forums is the predictability of some responses. There were similar saintly appeals that opinions were not to be offered after the token sentence on a woman who terminated a similarly drunk partner after deliberately drinking for hours and deliberately leaving the pub to drive- she killed him before going more than a couple of yards. Some were of the opinion that she had already suffered enough, punishing her wouldn't bring him back, etc etc.. I wasn't. I was of the opinion that these were the excuses of the Drink/ Drug Driving is not that bad, it could happen to any of us lobby. Opinions are what these forums are about- it's not a legal case here. I understand that such opinionated discussions go on in Public Houses, although I wouldn't know as I never go in them.
In the present case the individual risk factors, which I have to accept from the BBC because I can't verify them myself, taken one after another each increase the probability that we pretty much know what happened to almost 100%. It's not quite 100%; it could be that the car was forced off the road by a 1.21 Gigawatt tractor beam from Starship Enterprise bouncing off the Klingon flagship, for instance. If there was any blood alcohol (which was why I originally wrote 'any') it would have gone after 24 hours in a young woman with non-knackered liver. She was indeed lucky. That's my opinion.
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>> Rather than speculate please could we just leave it to the police to investigate? No. One of the features and it must be admitted the entertainment of these forums is the predictability of some responses. There were similar saintly appeals that opinions were not to be offered after the token sentence on a woman who terminated a similarly drunk partner after deliberately drinking for hours and deliberately leaving the pub to drive- she killed him before going more than a couple of yards.
William, you are confusing two different situations. One is the perfectly legitimate exercise of offering opinions on a case where the facts have already been presented in court and assessed by a judge. But in this case you are leaping to conclusions about a case in which we have very scanty details, and where you are surmising a chain of events. That's not just potentially unfair to the person concerned, but more seriously it risks prejudicing a trial if the police investigation reveals grounds for prosecution.
What's wrong with waiting for an investigation and reserving judgement until you have more details of the case?
In the present case the individual risk factors which I have to accept from the BBC because I can't verify them myself taken one after another each increase the probability that we pretty much know what happened to almost 100%. It's not quite 100%; it could be that the car was forced off the road by a 1.21 Gigawatt tractor beam from Starship Enterprise bouncing off the Klingon flagship for instance.
There are plenty of nasty accidents which occur when the driver has not been drinking at all, and in this case we have no evidence that the woman had consumed any alcohol before leaving the pub -- just a guess that this is likely. If that's your idea of near-100% certainty, then I pity the accused if you ever end up on a jury. :(
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...but more seriously it risks prejudicing a trial...
Tosh, and a line that's trotted out far too often.
Why is it tosh?
Any trial will be months away so this thread will be long forgotten.
The chances of someone reading this thread, remembering it, being called for jury service, sitting on that case, and allowing his opinions to be swayed are tiny.
Give jurors some credit - they are the same as you and me and are intelligent enough to try a case on its merits.
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....but nonetheless idle speculation is unhelpful. I've been to several pubs recently but haven't had a drop (going tonight as it happens) and I'd be hacked off if an anonymous poster was making something up based on the flimsiest of evidence if anything happened to me on the way home. Gossip mongering basically in the finest tradition of Les Dawsons' housewife character.
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....but nonetheless idle speculation is unhelpful...
PU,
Agreed - which is where the Mods come in.
Even from as far away as Wales.
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Which is why I posted ! (not because I'm in Wales !)
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Grimsargh where the woman had been visiting the pub, for whatever reason, has been associated with a couple of unfortunate incidents in the last week. tinyurl.com/lupsxv Focus involved in 2 overturnings, the last of which was fatal to the driver and seriously injured a third party in a Subaru. Focus 1 was apparently being followed by Focus 2, because of a minor bump minutes earlier.
Edited by nortones2 on 05/09/2009 at 11:52
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Don't you just love the use of what might be called footballers' tense by the Lancashire cops:
"The driver of the blue Focus has lost control of the vehicle."
Has lost control? How about: "The driver of the blue Focus lost control of the vehicle."
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It's more likely to be the bumper bar of a HGV tractor, than the tractor beam of the starship enterprise.
Truck/car type accidents happen frequently near junctions (M6 M61 in this case), where the driver of a Continental truck makes an ill-considered lane change and doesn't see a car in the blind spot
As the car driver, there's really no predicting where you end up under those circumstances.
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Don't you just love the use of what might be called footballers' tense by the Lancashire cops: "The driver of the blue Focus has lost control of the vehicle."
Police all over, I think.
It's either that or the present anecdotal ("Then my boyfriend walks in ...") which they also use in statements.
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>> It's either that or the present anecdotal ("Then my boyfriend walks in ...") which they also use in statements.
They get that from popular history for the masses programmes: "Henry VIII has to execute ..." "Hitler launches his blitzkreig" etc. It's journalese I think.
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William Stevenson and one or two others....if you can be bothered to get off your high horse, Google the lady's name and you will find at least one other report of this story which contains the sentence "Police say that there is no suggestion that she had been drinking".
I have no connection to this person, but I was sufficiently shocked by this instant assumption that she had been drinking that I did a bit of googling. Of course the Police might be lying, who knows?
Perhaps you would have the decency to comment.
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None of us is likely ever to know.
But "Police say that there is no suggestion that she had been drinking" is not conclusive: if they were asked, "Had she been drinking?" then, with no evidence to support such a conclusion, they would have to answer that way.
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Faced with that kind of answer, I give up.
I'm off to the Daily Mail forum where I hope to find a little more tolerance and understanding.
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Nsar, mate, nothing can be that bad, can it?
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None of us is likely ever to know. But "Police say that there is no suggestion that she had been drinking" is not conclusive: if they were asked "Had she been drinking?" then with no evidence to support such a conclusion they would have to answer that way.
Not so.
If there was any room for doubt, they could perfectly well have said something like "we are unable at this stage to determine whether or not the driver had been over the limit".
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Not so. If there was any room for doubt they could perfectly well have said something like "we are unable at this stage to determine whether or not the driver had been over the limit".
Exactly.
If you suspect something, you do not give a press statement out stating "there is no suggestion...." etc....you'd say something non committal like "our enquiries continue".
If you don't know one way or the other it would be something akin to what NoWheels has said.
If you think there was no drink involved, you'd say what they did say.
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The point is, the police are in a cleft stick and will - and ought - to say nothing which they can't back up with evidence.
And were they to say - 24 hours later - I repeat, 24 hours later - anything like "we are unable at this stage to determine whether or not the driver had been over the limit" then she would probably sue them.
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The point is the police are in a cleft stick and will - and ought - to say nothing which they can't back up with evidence. And were they to say - 24 hours later - I repeat 24 hours later - anything like "we are unable at this stage to determine whether or not the driver had been over the limit" then she would probably sue them.
Sue them for what, exactly? What's the damage of saying "we don't know either way" or "investigations are incomplete" ??
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For raising the suggestion that she might have been over the limit.
When they couldn't possibly substantiate such a suggestion.
She was trapped for 24 hours, remember?
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For raising the suggestion that she might have been over the limit. When they couldn't possibly substantiate such a suggestion. She was trapped for 24 hours remember?
But we're not talking about them "raising the suggestion", which I agree would be out of order. As yourself put it above, the issue is what to do if they were asked, "Had she been drinking?"
When asked, all they have to say is "dunno, our investigations continue".
I dunno how the rules of evidence work in drink-driving cases, but I would have thought there were other evidential possibilities besides blood tests. Can the bar staff tell the police how many drinks she had, over what time period? Did anyone see what state she was in when she left?
The police had 24 hours to make those enquiries before they found her, and if there was any serious doubt in their mind about her alcohol intake they could easily answer a question without committing themselves. As Westpig pointed out, police do this all the time: remain non-committal until they've reached conclusions.
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Hey, you pay the same whether or not you accept the advice (or, in this case, the explanation).
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William Stevenson >> Perhaps you would have the decency to comment.
My comment is that this is becoming more hilarious by the minute now that we have been incited to delve deeper. Decency hardly comes into it! We now know where she lives, and her family circumstances. Yet more suspicious aspects have been revealed, not least of which are the personalised number plate and quotes about 'bubbly personality'- although we can congratulate her for getting almost the maximum value out of the tax disc before the car was totalled. At least she won't have to attempt the thankless task of getting money back from the DVLA.
Better still: the reported police comment that 'there is no suggestion that she had been drinking' actually turns out to have been a police comment that 'there is no suggestion that she was over the drink drive limit'. I can say with 100% certainty that there is such a suggestion, but it cannot be proved because a young liver would have burned off all but a massive alcohol overdose within 21 hours, particularly when it hasn't got any digesting of proper food to do. There is a strong likelihood that she had been drinking alcohol because the quotes about enjoying drinks with friends at a pub are unlikely to be referring to tea or some nasty fructose laden soft drink, and also because it's fairly obvious really. I haven't changed my opinion yet, but I shall look around J29 when I'm next passing in a day or two. Perhaps it will just be designated as a Sudden Unexplained Rolling Over An Embankment With No Other Vehicles That We Know About Involved Incident
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>>I can say with 100% certainty that there is such a suggestion but it cannot be proved >>
where on earth is this suggestion? You might well have a suspicious mind...and who knows you might be correct....but on the other hand you might not..... it's pure speculation.
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>> William Stevenson >> Perhaps you would have the decency to comment. My comment is that this is becoming more hilarious by the minute now that we have been incited to delve deeper. Decency hardly comes into it! We now know where she lives and her family circumstances. Yet more suspicious aspects have been revealed not least of which are the personalised number plate and quotes about 'bubbly personality'-
A "bubbly personality" and a personalised numberplate!!!!! Quelle horreur!!!
Oh no! , somebody arrest her promptly just for those two serious offences. I mean it's well known that personalised plates are owned only by the most reckless of hardened criminals, and that anyone with a "bubbly personality" must be a dangerous psychopath ... so put her in the Tower and throw away the key.
[/tongue-firmly-in-cheek]
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 05/09/2009 at 21:03
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>>There is a strong likelihood that she had been drinking alcohol because the quotes about enjoying drinks with friends at a pub are unlikely to be referring to tea or some nasty fructose laden soft drink<<
I think that is telling us more about your drinking habits than hers.
>>Perhaps it will just be designated as a Sudden Unexplained Rolling Over An Embankment With No Other Vehicles That We Know About Involved Incident<<
Or the result of the very bad weather at the time.
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William Stevenson i am sick of all the small minded people like yourself who jump to conclusions due to what is written about a person in the press.
you believe that she has been drink driving due to what you have seen in the paper as it says and i quote 'she left the plough after enjoying drinks with friends'.
This is not the case and how do i know that Mr Stevenson, that is because i was one of those friends sat with here before the accident occured that evening!
So Mr Stevenson before you start spouting out what you call 'THE FACTS' as you have so called them actually give a minute to think about the family and friends of the person involved and what they might be going through.
But on a brighter note thankyou to all the people who have sent their best wishes and stuck up for my friend in this forum.
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...Thank you Mr Williams - now can we put this to bed now ?
Rob - Moderator.
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William Stevenson i am sick of all the small minded people like yourself who jump to conclusions
Good one. I think this is a message relevant to a lot of people, who post without thinking or who jump to conclusions.
Hope your friend is recovering well.
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I think it's only fair for Judge Stevenson and m'learned friends of the kangaroo court to be allowed a right of reply...
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i quote 'she left the plough after enjoying drinks with friends'. This is not the case and how do i know that Mr Stevenson that is because i was one of those friends sat with here >>
This is interesting. G Williams has been recruited to the forum solely for this angry post which has been deemed acceptable for the forum, despite the special difficulty that he/ she is directly involved, as opposed to those relying on publically available information of variable reliability. GW has now added to the public information. People were no doubt questioned by police before they issued the 'missing person appeal, and this probably contains the most reliable public information, because they were seeking assistance in finding her. Problems could arise if witnesses differ, and I think this is the reason for the cumbersome 'this is not the case' language, which makes an assertion without making clear what it refers to. Few people will therefore doubt the 'leaving the Plough pub at 19.45' bit, so presumably the dispute is over 'enjoying drinks with friends'. That is odd, because not many people would object on principle to that concept, which only became noteworthy after what we may now call the Sudden Unexplained Flying 30ft Through The Air Over The Crash Barrier Incident. There are not many credible causes for such an incident.
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There are not many credible causes for such an incident.
Perhaps that's why they don't happen very often.
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Few people will therefore doubt the 'leaving the Plough pub at 19.45' bit so presumably the dispute is over 'enjoying drinks with friends'.
William, you're digging yourself in deeper.
The dispute is over your insistence in believing that 'enjoying drinks with friends' means a) alcoholic drinks and b) too many alcoholic drinks ... despite a clear denial from the police of that possibility.
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... despite a clear denial from the police of that possibility ... >>
eh? Where is that clear denial?
This report,
www.lep.co.uk/news/Miracle-escape-of-mum-trapped.5...p
, and other similar ones, states:
Police say there is no suggestion she was over the drink drive limit.
So was she just under the limit, or totally alcohol free? or what? NW - How do you know?
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>> ... despite a clear denial from the police of that possibility ... >> eh? Where is that clear denial? This report www.lep.co.uk/news/Miracle-escape-of-mum-trapped.5...p and other similar ones states: Police say there is no suggestion she was over the drink drive limit. So was she just under the limit or totally alcohol free? or what? NW - How do you know?
I don't know whether she was alcohol-free or had merely had so few drinks that there was no concern about her being over the limit; the police statement doesn't answer that question. But what I do know is that the police statement rules out any concern about her having been over the limit, despite William's determination to believe that there could be no other possible cause for the accident.
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NowWheels:
1. When replying, why do you frequently quote the whole post?
2. >> I don't know whether she was alcohol-free ... >>
No, only the investigating officers will know the full circumstances that led to someone from the Police allegedly saying "there is no suggestion she was over the drink drive limit".
3. When this (enlarge the 2nd photo) was the effort needed to rescue the driver, I suspect that the priority for the emergency services was to save a life, rather than breathalyse the driver at the scene and/or work out how much alcohol there may or may not have been in the blood at the time of the actual incident (rather than 21 hours later when rescued).
4. The alleged Police statement implies nothing other than "there is no suggestion". Note that "suggestion" does not equal "suspicion" or "evidence", nor does it mean that the cause of the incident was investigated and resolved, or the driver tested, or not. As said so many times, everything so far seems to be conjecture in the absence of sworn evidence.
Edited by jbif on 07/09/2009 at 16:22
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NowWheels: 1. When replying why do you frequently quote the whole post?
To clarify context, because in a threaded discussion like this, replies are not always displayed adjacent to each other. I usually trim long quotes (and probably should have trimmed the one you are replying to -- sorry!), but quoting one or two lines may sometimes amount to the whole post.
The alleged Police statement implies nothing other than "there is no suggestion". Note that "suggestion" does not equal "suspicion" or "evidence"
Fair comment, but it may be unwise to try to place too precise an interpretation on the exact word used. Is a suggestion stronger or weaker than a suspicion? I'd usually say weaker, but that may not be what the speaker meant.
(e.g. "I suggest we should consider the possibility that X was drunk" .. "So do you suspect that X was drunk?" "No, I have no grounds to suspect that. But it is a theoretical possibility, so we should investigate")
However, if there was evidence of being over the limit, then saying "no suggestion" would not be an appropriate comment -- at best it would be highly misleading.
As said so many times everything so far seems to be conjecture in the absence of sworn evidence.
Indeed! That's why I have been objecting to those who want to leap to the conclusion that her presence in a pub makes this a drunk-driving incident.
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