Well, it is 12 o'clock. Pacing up and down the living room trying to make the two hours 'til 2pm slip by in the blink of en eye.
My sponge-on-wheels with the head snapping jerky egs gearbox will be under my control for the last time, when it will be unceremoniously left with my local VW dealership in p/x for the Golf 1.4SE Tsi DSG.
I am going to fill it up, (remember, petrol, remember, petrol, remember, petrol, remember, petrol!) and then take it for a wander along some country lanes and down the A12 for a bit. It will be so nice to drive down the local lanes and not roll about like a rollicking drunken matelot on shore leave. The difference in quality between the egs and the dsg is more evident than the buck teeth on buck teeth Bill from Harold Hill.
I am well excited! More excited than a kid on E102 and E110.
|
Dear Herr Tack,
You might be aware that I have been running the same spec Golf now for the past 3 months. Therefore .........
I'd be interested in your initial opinions on the 7 speed dsg. I'm very happy with the shift quality, but it is inclined to be rather "sudden" or jerky away from rest or when changing from the overun to accelerating at low speed.
I find I have to squeeze the throttle rather than just opening it a bit.
The contrast between the Golf & Citroen should be marked.
( Perhaps I'm being overly critical ! )
|
What you say about your DSG system is echoed by my friend who has that system in his VW Jetta (his is the 6 speed 'wet' box, I believe).
He has complained to the dealers about that nasty jerky take off and snatch that has resulted in he denting both front wings in his rather too narrow garage, whilst manoeuvring to get in and out. Needless to say the dealers can't do anything about what is basically a design fautl or at least something peculiar to the electro-mechanical system, that it is.
Personally I'd steer well clear of the DSG gearbox, depite what they say about rapid gear changes and all that claptrap.
Myself, well I'm currently waiting delivery of my new MK 6 1.4TSI SE Golf which is being built this week, somewhere in Germany (Wolfsburg?) and so should have it in about 3 weeks time once it's been shipped over here. That will be after a wait of almost 5 months!!
|
this is really interesting - I hv A3 dsg (had major parts replaced under warranty but still jerky - in fact, the only smooth part of it are the gear changes) and my son runs a 15 month old Golf gti dsg, so jerky on take off that dealer tried software update which didn't improve things, so (at 15k miles) new gearbox on order. As one motoring journo wrote: "driving dsg models feel like the handbrake is still on ..."
Sad to say, I won't have another VAG auto, unless Audi can successfully redesign the performance. Wonder if Ford's "Powershift" box is smoother .. anyone know?
|
I test drove an early DSG box in an Octavia because I think it counts as a very significant technical development, especially when coupled to a decent diesel engine. Such an engine has such high levels of low speed torque that a conventional torque converter box is hopeless in terms of efficiency - hence the DSG.
I set off into the traffic with the salesman in the passenger seat - all well. I then drove into a multistorey car park and trialled reversing up and round a ramp slowly, then again forwards. Unacceptable - the car was not, in my view fully manoeverable.
I still bought a Skoda - but a bigger one with a manual box. So far so good.
659.
|
|
|
|
I tried the Volvo automatic on the V50 which uses the ford powershift box and to be honest I was very impressed with it
|
... uses the ford powershift box...
The X-type, which presumably also uses the Ford powershift box, is as smooth as any auto I've driven.
|
As I am in the market for an automatic I have looked around to see what was available and which was the best auto box and the conclusion I have drawn are you have four choices
1- go for a conventional torque converter box which is probably going to be smoother but more heavy on the CO2 emissions and fuel consumption
2- go for what is really a clutch less manual in which the gears are changed electronically but the downside is the changes are not as smooth and the gearbox is more problematic
3- go a twin clutch system like the DSG and powershift which is smoother than the electronically changed gear but not as smooth as a torque converter or CVT
4 there is a CVT automatic box which is more fuel efficient than a Torque converter box
The trouble is different manufacturers have different systems even within there range of cars so it very much a case of a balancing act picking the car you want and hoping the auto-box that the manufacturer have picked for that car is the one you are happy with .
I never realized what a mine field it was trying to buy an automatic car !! I will not even mention the difficulty in finding the model you want with the auto-box at a dealers to test drive
|
|
|
X type uses a torque converter box, as also used by BMW and I agree it is very smooth, but you pay for it in higher mpg and CO2 output than a DSG.
Any jerkiness with a DSG means there's a fault. Mine became jerky, it was only after I had a new A3 as a courtesy car whilst mine was being servcied that I realised how bad it was, result was a new mechatronic unit after which it was a smooth as day one. My first DSG suffered no issues.
Anyone hitting things obviously hasn't learnt that the DSG does creep very well - our cul de sac is quite a slope - the DSG went up it in creep, the X type doesn't.
Once DSG finds it's way into the larger Audis I may well be back with the brand, what I didn't want was a CVT.
Edited by daveyjp on 30/06/2009 at 21:55
|
...X type uses a torque converter box...
The diesel auto X-type is a double clutch manual/auto - a version of Ford's powershift.
|
I'd be intertested in a link to know where you gleaned this (mis) information from. It's a torque convertor tiptronic system.
"The so-called Sequential Shift gearbox is in fact a pretty conventional automatic and not one of those DSG-type sequential shifts offered by Audi and BMW. "
|
..I'd be intertested in a link to know where you gleaned this (mis) information from. It's a torque convertor tiptronic system....
daveyjp,
To quote from pg6 of the Jag e-brochure:
"The 2.2 lirtre diesel...offers the choixe of 6-speed manual or the new 6-speed Jaguar Sequential Shift automatic...has the dual capability of fully automatic or sequential manual gear selection."
The brochure also says the V6 petrol is available with 'standard automatic transmission'.
The Jag dealer I spoke to said it was a version of the Ford powershift box, which makes sense, and I'm sure I read somewhere else in the brochure or in a road test about two clutches.
|
The dealer is talking out of his hat.
It's a tiptronic conventional torque convertor auto, all this means is you can select each of the 6 autobox ratios by using the gear selector - hence sequential shift. Audi Multronic CVT can also be used as a sequential shift by going through the 7 set gear points, but it's not a DSG.
The 'conventional' auto on the V6 engines (petrol and diesel) is the J gate system (ZF Box) which only allows you to choose ratios 2,3,4 or 5 using the gear selector with no sequential shift available.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, I picked it up yesterday and so far so good. No signs of the jerkiness that others have mentioned so far. I have done some local high street traffic queues, green winding lanes and dual carriageway. After the Picasso EGS, going to VW DSG feels like going from Premier Inn to The Savoy. The EGS was slacker than my mother in laws jaw, whereas the DSG is tighter than father in laws wallet.
I have Parkinsons's, and as my left hand is most affected, I elected for DSG over manual anyway. If I had manual, who knows what gear I could select at any given moment! Would be like stiring the pot and hoping for the best.
I tend to squeeze the go pedal gently anyway, rather than jab at it. Watching the display, it quickly and almost imperceptably gets to 7th in no time at all.
I am astonished by how big the engine feels as the cabin noise damping material keeps out almost all engine and road noise. The car soaks up bumps really well, keeping its shape and giving confidence that you aren't going to bounce and judder all over the place.
The car also feels a lot quicker than the figures suggest. This may be because I sit lower down in the Golf than in the Picasso, but doing 50 for instance in 7th, then kicking down produces a decent turn of speed with little fuss. Makes me grin a bit.
I really like the midi input. I filled my iPod Touch with all my CD's. I don't like the centre armrest You can raise it a notch or two for comfort, but to put it back down, you have to raise it all the way up to release, then push down.
I am 6'3" tall, with long legs, there is really good legroom behind me even with my seat right back.
It looks really nice in Pearl Black with the alloys. Doors shut with satisfying thunk 1st time.
Could probably have done with entertainment controls on steering wheel (as I had in the Picasso) but I am sure I might get used to using the radio etc in normal manner. Jabbing at the buttons with my spasticated hand might bring interesting results.
So, first impressions are good. Let's see what happens after a week or a month or whatever.
|
...So, first impressions are good....
Sehr gut, mein Herr.
|
|
|
More on the central console..............and handbrake.
If you have centre armrest up a couple of notches, with the hand brake on the left of it you need to raise the arm rest up then put it down to get a better grip on handbrake to pull it up. A minor inconvenience, or irritation.
It is difficult to pull it straight up with armrest up a but. You tend to pull handbrake towards you at angle rather than straight up.
Obviously set up for l/h drive cars.
|
|
|
|
|
Tack's impressions will be interesting. I'm wondering if there is any difference (in terms of driver satisfaction) between petrol and diesel cars fitted with DSG.
The reason I'm wondering is that with a manual diesel you tend to give it just a bit more welly for a smart take-off from rest than you'd need with a petrol. An automatic of a DSG doesn't give you the choice, and with the two diesel automatics I've had, step-off has been on the leisurely side (Audi 2.5 TDI) or just plain slow (Mercedes B200 CDI).
I thought about DSG for the current Octavia (2.0 TDI common-rail), and on balance I think I'm glad I went for the manual. The 6-speed gearbox has an excellent gearchange and even while still loosening up (3,000 miles) step-off is decidedly not leisurely.
|
I agonised about ordering a DSG for a month or so before my Head took control back from my Heart.
I worked (a long time ago) on an electronically controlled multiclutch gearbox, so I'm not spouting complete rubbish.
Here are my main concerns about the Dry 7 speed DSG box:-
Dry clutches wear - and sometimes they develop strange characteristics when they wear - judder being one I'm sure we are all familiar with. I am not sure how an electrohydraulic control system can deal with this, and I'm pretty sure this maybe a reason if not the reason for the main gripe people have - poor and variable takeup. Basically a dry clutch can never do a smooth job in the way a torque convertor can.
There is insufficient input from the driver for the control system to understand when and how he is manouevering - a manual box has the driver dipping accelerator and clutch alternativley.
A problem in my design days, and I'm sure it hasnt gone away, is how to ensure you never engaged two clutches simultaneously. Electrohydraulics are not always well behaved. Timing varies. Get the actuation too soon and bang, too late and nasty gearchange. Either can put incredible shock loads on the clutches and geartrain.
Please be aware that claims of millisecond gearchange is a creative description - the "milliseconds" refer to selected clutch final engagement time - the control systems has taken several hundred milliseconds to decide what to do, shift the selectors, command the engine to throttle back, release the unwanted clutch and move the wanted clutch plate to the bite point and then.....well its a lot more complicated and timeconsuming than the marketing people would have you believe.
In the end, a DSG will only ever be as good as its clutches allow and as long as one of those clutches is allowed to slip to creep the box, I think there are going to be problems.
|
|
|
|
After driving a new Golf 1.6 with 7 speed DSG I was impressed. Imperceptible gear changes and great fuel economy, so lots to like.
However, I was concerned with the low speed jerkiness. I was only using it on motorways and dual carriageways, so didn't get chance to try it round town. At the services, at least, pulling off without giving it lots of welly, it often felt like it was going to stall. Not very nice, but then it didn't actually stall...
It would have been interesting to have had chance to take it round a tight multi-storey. As it was, on the open road it was great, but then who buys an auto for the open road?
|
The point of my earlier post was that it seems that the dsg must be driven with a suprisingly precise throttle foot, it's not that you cannot make smooth progress, it's that you have to think about it sometimes.
In other words the car is almost too responsive, and is jerky if you are clumsy.
I was interested in Tack's comparison with the Citroen egs.
Edited by mustangman on 01/07/2009 at 12:26
|
|
|
|
