I'll take this thread as being just one more unsubstantiated "franchised dealers are crooks" thread.
Your insistence on scientific proof does you credit escargot, but others are surprised by the allegation of 80 per cent front pad wear on a new car after ten thousand miles.
Replacement pads on a car with badly scored discs, heavily used by the driver, can have fairly short lives. But in this case the allegation sounds unreasonable to an experienced owner of many cars.
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But in this case the allegation sounds unreasonable to an experiencedowner of many cars.
Yes it does, but we have a third hand report of a telephone conversation here to make judgement on which may well have been embellished before the OP ever heard it.
As i said above, the dealer would be taking a serious risk by lying about such an easily checked item.
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tinyurl.com/qdrdre
Obviously there is a problem with Citroen brake pads. Are they made from compressed grass, perhaps;-)
Discs appear to have an extremely short life too. Perhaps apologies are in order regarding this particular incident. Ok, I apologise.
I've still had personal experience of main dealer shennanigans though :-(
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10,000 miles ,80% worn ,sounds totally reasonable to me on a small whizz bomb like a c2.
I can read the headline now 23 year old woman killed by car with worn pads,parents petition houses of parliament ,garage knew they wouldn"t last till its first mot or next service but did NOTHING to save young girls live.
Father refuses to bury her till PM gives long speech in parliament,mother going to european court to get ruling that all brake pads should have whistles attached when pads get near limit
Brake manufacturers see upturn in business,economy saved,PM REELECTED
...........
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Father refuses to bury her till PM gives long speech in parliament mother going to european court to get ruling that all brake pads should have whistles attached when pads get near limit
Wouldn't be a bad idea bb. I once owned a Camaro with audible pad wear indicator. Nothing fancier than a metal tag that rubbed on the disc when the pad was worn down
It was a '74 model
Quite a few people slag simple yank technology. It'll be nice when we catch up...
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Quite a few people slag simple yank technology. It'll be nice when we catch up...
Exactly the same on the Hilux, doesn't need wiring ( with warning light that should read 'take to dealer and bend over'), just simple and effective.
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I've got the opposite problem. When my Corsa was serviced I was told the front pads were 75% worn. I then asked him to replace them and he said there is no point as I have another 3k miles left in them. Surely though at 75% worn braking performance would be reduced? They did pass the MOT etc without an advisory but the MOT braking test is fairly basic.
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No it isn't, Rattle
It was fairly basic years ago when the car brakes were tested on the forecourt with a decelerometer. Nowadays each wheel is tested for braking efficiency. That's why you don't see just one skid mark on the carriageway like you used to (usually veering off to the side)
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I know its more advanced than it used to be, but cars can still pass the MOT even if the brakes are weaker than they were designed to be. My question was how worn do the pads have to be to start to effect the braking performance?
I've done 400 miles since I was told they were 75% worn.
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>>Surely though at 75% worn braking performance would be reduced?
Absolutely not! It could be argued they're more efficient than new ones, because they're 'bedded in'.
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Relax, Rattle. Should be quite a few miles left in them yet.
It all depends on how hard you are on the brakes. Friend of mine needed a new set of discs and pads on his RS4 after 20k and was relieved of £600. Mind you, he does drive it like he stole it, being an ex motorcycle racer. Damn good driver though.
I've only ever replaced one set of front pads in all the years I've been driving. All down to planning ahead (also some of the machinery I've driven with drum brakes all round had a similar stopping distance to the Queen Mary). Brake fade on a two and a quarter ton car when hauling the thing down from speed during spells of spirited driving makes things interesting too. Four wheel disc brakes and ABS? You youngsters don't know you're born... ;-)
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Who would want to be a mechanic at a car dealers now?
Some cars have very long service intervals and serviceable brakes could be dangerous when the next service comes round.
There are so many variables that affect especially disc wear and corrosion. My Panda Cross with all-round discs had a bump early on in its life, spent a lot of time sitting doing nothing whilst waiting for parts and the discs are quite corroded for a 4,500 mile car.
Brakes are very much a safety related item. Now, I know how to take off the wheels and asess the brakes but I think I'm the exception these days.
I feel, on balance, that the dealers are going for customer safety, not big profits.
By the way, my Panda can't be put on the rolling road for its brake test so has to be taken out on the road with a decelerometer.
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Oi!!! My car has no ABS and drums at the rear and I have no trouble at all stopping it even on the one time I had to an emergency stop. As for brake usage I probably brake heavily once in 100 miles and that is usualy only if a light turns onto amber at the last minute.
What I don't like about my brakes as they are quite spongy the first bit of travel not a lot happens but if you put the pedal down the brakes suddenly kick in, not a problem as I am used to it and I am told on the Corsa sight its normal for a Corsa B.
I drive for mechanical sympathy and as a result get 45mpg in the city, use no oil or water :). It is just as good fun as the boy racers way of doing it, 0-30 in two seconds then slam on brakes for the lights.
It seems strange owning a car that dosn't require a garage visit everyday still getting my head round it :).
My dad also drives without using his brakes and as a result his front discs have now got 30k on them and they are not even worn. They are as smooth as Kylie back in 1988!
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Oi!!! My car has no ABS and drums at the rear and I have no trouble at all stopping it
Think CC was going back to more basic brakes Rattle me old mate.
My old Mustang with the 'small' 5.7 V8 had drum brakes all round and no servo...that made stopping from its potential speeds um interesting..;)
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Rattle, the idea of your dad driving without using his brakes scares me to death.
Don't forget, my daughter lives in Didsbury and I don't want her to be mown down by an old fella who has forgotten what the middle pedal is for!
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Hehe and the bad news is me and my dad both drive to Didsbury almost every day :p Of course he does use his brakes but he is very good at seeing what is ahead and slowing down gently through the gears etc rather than suddenly slamming on his brakes when he sees the hazzard at the last minute.
I bought my Corsa from Didsbury btw :). Private sale.
Anyway I will leave my brakes for a bit longer now, I guess they make a bit of a racket when they are about to go. Also I have been told my car has sensors which show up the brake light if the pads get too low but you can't rely on that.
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My dad also drives without using his brakes
Now that would be worth seeing! (Only joking, Rattle, I know what you mean!) ;)
Does remind me of one thing, though, the number of times I've followed someone that have come to a standstill many times without showing brake lights... usually its not good driving, just blown bulbs...
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Not witnessed that yet myself, seen plenty with one bulb out though. Which reminds me I check my lights now :).
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My dad also drives without using his brakes and as a result his front discs have now got 30k on them and they are not even worn. They are as smooth as Kylie back in 1988!
Tell your dad that brake pads are cheaper than gearboxes and clutches.
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In response to Old Navy and on behalf of all those of us who are gentle on the brakes, I keep my cars typically for 70k miles and have never had to replace - or ever suspected any wear - in a clutch or gearbox :)
Edited by yeoman on 23/05/2009 at 21:32
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In response to Old Navy and on behalf of all those of us who are gentle on the brakes I keep my cars typically for 70k miles and have never had to replace - or ever suspected any wear - in a clutch or gearbox :)
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May I refer you to my post of 14:53, I do not consider myself amongst the heavy brake users. My gear box is fine, I keep my fingers crossed for my DMF. :-)
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I guess the only person who knows why they said the pads needed changing was the person who said it. Perhaps he genuinely thought they needed changing, perhaps he made a mistake or perhaps he was pulling a fast one.
What made me smile was L'Escargot's comment that "I'll take this thread as being just one more unsubstantiated "franchised dealers are crooks" thread".
EVERY, I'll repeat, EVERY dealer I have worked for or with in the past 25 has routinely indulged in crooked behaviour. The frequency & severity of the behaviour has obviously varied & none to my knowledge have knowingly put lives at risk (although at times it's been a close call) but it's a bit like MP's expenses - everyone knows it goes on but it's so common that the owners, dealer staff, their suppliers & the authorities turn a blind eye.
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EVERY, I'll repeat, EVERY dealer I have worked for or with in the past 25
turn a blind eye.
It's true that changing brake pads when they are less than half worn isn't dangerous. But it isn't necessary, and it is wasteful. This is bad in principle and expensive for the customer.
But to the people who do it it seems quite normal. Of course they know other people do worse things, and they probably do them themselves. But in this case they are telling themselves that the punter's car will be as good as new, even though it doesn't need to be, and at the same time they or their firm will make the few quid involved. A win win situation they must think. Two birds with one stone.
Now that sleazy thinking of this sort is so commonplace, is it any wonder that this country is apparently leading the rest of the world headfirst down the toilet?
Edited by Lud on 23/05/2009 at 19:26
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A TV prog like Rouge Traders shows us that there are a percentage of builders, plumbers, electricians, computer repair men even, who are keen to have us over in order to make a fast buck. Why should the franchised dealerships be any different ?
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Rouge Traders ...
Nice one, Mr X. Jeweller's, I presume?
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I know it is different as I don't have to cover my back so much but I would not never dream of ripping of a customer of telling a lie. A few times I have gone out to fix dead PCs and it has been that the RAM has been loose. The job takes 2 minutes to fix max. Customer has their PC back. Now I could easily lie and say you need a new motherboard but it would be a lie. Now what makes car dealers different?
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what makes car dealers different?
They are rich and important Rattle, and we aren't. But we have honour, and they don't.
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Had a very similar experience at my main dealer last (25000 mile) service. "Pads 75% worn, won't last to the next service". "No thanks, I will keep an eye on them".
10,000 miles later, although from looking through the alloys there seemed to be plenty of pad left, I take it to the local independent for them to do the work. A call later that morning "why do you want the pads replaced as they are only 50-60% worn?"
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I guess it's that from the moment you join the trade crooked practice is the norm - your colleagues do it, your boss does it, when you're with other dealers & suppliers they all talk & joke about it & you are expected to follow suit. If you challenge it you're not one of them & could be even sacked. Think Serpico but on a lower level.
I remember one job I had and I was asked to do something naughty, I objected & used the word "fraud". I was told not to "say the F word again or you're gone"; I complied but took copies for evidence if it ever came to anything.
But also the victims turn a blind eye which just encourages it. I'm not talking about retail customers but finance companies, manufacturers, warranty companies, customs & excise, insurance companies, parts suppliers etc etc
Sad, but's that the reality.
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My brakes as they are quite spongy the first bit of travel not a lot happens ...
Have you tried changing your brake fluid, Rattle? Sounds as if it may be needed ...
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In reply to Andrew-T;
I doubt it. Being quite a new driver, I suspect Rattle hasn't really got the feel of the car, and rather than using the pedal force as the feedback cue, he's relying upon gauging how far he's pressed the pedal. A few weeks ago, we heard a similar tale about the throttle pedal.
Rattle - as long as your brake pedal becomes firm long before it hits the floor, and the brake fluid has been changed in the last few years, you'll be OK.
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Last documented bleed and change was in 2004. I have no idea if it has been changed since then but the brake fluid level is at max and it smells like brake fluid should do. As I have said when I did need to do an emergency stop a few weeks back my car stopped as I expected to but the pedal is still a bit spong. Three people have driven it in the past 400 miles
1) My dad who thinks the brake pedle has a lot of travel but he is onbly driven Fords since 2002.
2) My mate who has only even driven Fords full stop. He said my brakes scared him.
3) My mechanic who says there is nothing wrong them them.
4) Ted that reversed it out of his drive at about 10mph so would not have noticed anything anyway.
Edited by Rattle on 24/05/2009 at 03:13
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Last documented bleed and change was in 2004. I have no idea if it has been changed since then ..
If the record is complete it may well need changing (recommended every 3 years). Brake fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs water).
but the brake fluid level is at max and it smells like brake fluid should do
Well, it would do unless it has changed into something else.
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If the record is complete it may well need changing (recommended every 3 years).
Vauxhall's recommendation is every 2 years, not 3.
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Every 2 years, not 3.
I was being generous, DD. My personal opinion is that 3 years should be perfectly safe, and I bet there are plenty of cars out there with fluid a lot older than Rattle's - but not necessarily any safer for it. At least his reservoir is full ...
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I know its more advanced than it used to be but cars can still pass the MOT even if the brakes are weaker than they were designed to be. My question was how worn do the pads have to be to start to effect the braking performance? I've done 400 miles since I was told they were 75% worn.
Rattle, your missing the point...the pads are 75% worn in thickness only , the brake pad contact area is still 100% or near as damn it, so stop getting in a flap
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about 99.9% worn before the braking will suffer.
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about 99.9% worn before the braking will suffer.
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Rubbish.... new pads are 10-15mm thick, and the friction material can start breaking up / separating from back plate at 2-3mm remaining.
also, the less friction material thickness, the more heat is transferred to the backplate, then piston, then brake fluid. worn pads plus old fluid equals brake fade / possible failure.
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I once owned a Camaro. It'll be nice when we catch up...
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That would've taken SOME catching methinks.
MD
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