I took the idea for this thread from another Backroomer who has just changed a 4X4 for an estate car.
"No presence," he observes, and I think we all know what he means.
The only vehicle I have ever driven with presence was a six-wheel Transit pick-up which I used to do deliveries around London.
It had loads of presence, I could even out muscle the black cabs.
Despite its size, I could make faster progress through London in that Tranny than I could in the Metro I was running as a private car at the time.
Can small or medium-sized cars have any presence?
People notice me in the CC3 with the roof down, but I don't think that's the same thing.
What are your thoughts on presence?
Edited by Honestjohn on 14/05/2009 at 12:08
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I guess it's quite a big car anyway, but I reckon the Chrysler 300C has it.
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I ignore big expensive cars with pushy drivers.
Rusty, battle scarred Transit, respect!
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BMW R1200GS gives a strong sense of presence on urban roads - that is a good thing when you're trying to keep alive. My loaned VFR800 doesn't feel the same. The CRV has it but far more subtle than my old Defender. More important on a bike for me. I have a far more forgiving nature on four wheels
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strong sense of presence >>
Its all in the brain of the owner / driver, who else cares?
The only thing with "presence" is an emergency vehicle with lights and sirens on, and how often are they ignored?
Edited by Old Navy on 14/05/2009 at 10:40
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Have to agree with you there, Old Navy.
I would associate people's concern with 'presence' as merely a form of self-aggrandisement.
When driving, I've found prescience to be much more useful than presence....
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Agree with both of you in the main - however "presence" is defensive riding characteristic - not bothered about my cars having it.
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I would call that "See and be seen" not presence, all that needs is a headlight on. I use my headlights on rural main roads, the A9 is a good case for that.
Edited by Old Navy on 14/05/2009 at 10:58
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Missed the edit -
Positioning is more important than presence.
Edited by Old Navy on 14/05/2009 at 11:06
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The "be seen" bit is my definition of presence as is positioning. The BMW is so high that you can "dominate" the street scene by being seen and being able to see well beyond what you can in a car. As I said it doesn't bother me in a car although ON's See and be seen thing is a part of a car's "presence" - Returning to bikes positioning is a characteristic of presence - where a rider places their bike affects their ability to see and be seen - I will use take the centre line position through any given urban situation - taking an exaggerated line so that oncoming cars will "see" me sooner outside the clutter of pared cars and street furniture - it promotes presence !! I wear an vintage Sam Brown belt - this promotes presence as well !
Edited by Pugugly on 14/05/2009 at 11:28
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Same principle about wearing a fluorescent vest whien riding my pushbike. Most important, otherwise you just get cut up without warning.
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I think we are talking about two different types of presence, poser presence, and safety presence. So we can have differing views on the various aspects of the subject.
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poser presence
I don't think of 300C drivers as posers - perhaps I've got a different/wrong view of presence?
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I don't think of 300C drivers as posers >>
Depends on their style of driving.
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>> I don't think of 300C drivers as posers >> Depends on their style of driving.
What I mean is, the presence I'm thinking of is just an attribute of the vehicle, and nothing to do with the driver. In my eyes it has presence standing still.
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What I mean is the presence I'm thinking of is just an attribute of the vehicle
...and it doesn't mean I want one - I have enough trouble parking my Focus estate :-)
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The BMW is so high that you can "dominate" the street scene by being seen >>
That is only your perception, I am not dominated by drivers of anything. You are just another car, bike, or whatever.
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'Presence' is quite subtle. Size is usually part of it, but size alone isn't enough. A Rolls-Royce has it, a Maybach has it... but most SUVs don't, however big and shiny. A pink stretch Hummer perhaps. But that isn't the sort of presence most owners would want.
Or is it? I prefer to lie low myself.
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ON, you've obviously never ridden a motorcycle. "Dominate" is used by its dictionary definition in my context not in some weird macho challenge that you seem to have taken it. I ride a bike and I want to live to enjoy the experience - please read my comments in the context of advanced riding not as a threatening anyone. :-)
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I'd sooner have a car with no presence. The more inconspicuous it is, the less likely it is to be broken into or nicked.
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Thirty-odd years ago I fitted a white full fairing to my bike.
Suddenly, I had presence.
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I'd sooner have a car with no presence. The more inconspicuous it is the less likely it is to be broken into or nicked.
>>
Me too. Headlights provide me with presence when it is required.
Edited by Old Navy on 14/05/2009 at 13:12
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My Corsa has a lot of presence when some div in a Golf comes up at my rear at 40mph in a 30mph giving 1 metre of space. When I slow down to 25mph and and they have no room to overtake they soon know what presence is! I have no time for road bullies.
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I would conceed that the Audi Q7 has a rather large chunk of it. Blunt styling and sheer dimensions sure make an impresion - paint it matt black and mount some guns on the side and it would fit straight into a Mad Max remake!
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I find that I have "Presence" in my Ford Ranger Thunder Pick-up, if I indicate to change lane on the motorway, I reckon nine times out of ten someone lets me into the traffic, but with the wife's Focus it's probably only two or three out of ten!!
I guess there is the expectation (right or wrong in some cases) that someone driving a pick-up isn't going to worry about it too much!!
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I used to own a WWII ex-WD staff car,painted lilac;even artics gave way!!
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4x4's have the 'orrible kind of presence especially when their grill fills my rear view mirror.
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4x4's have the 'orrible kind of presence especially when their grill fills my rear view mirror.
I don't mind grills - it's their dazzling high-up headlights I find objectionable [quite apart from the fundamental stupidity of this type of vehicle for British surburban needs.] I thought headlights had to be fairly close to the ground like on buses and lorries for precisely this reason.
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I have no time for road bullies.
Hmmm... I think that's a bad attitude Rattle. How do you know it's a 'div' (what that?) rather than someone in a desperate hurry for good reason?
If someone tailgates you, let them past if you can, otherwise ignore them. Slowing down is provocative and will be seen - rightly - as an attempt to control other traffic.
It's a bad idea to get into quarrels with other drivers using your car's body language, however annoying and offensive you think they are being.
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One or two posters seem to doubt the value, or even existence, of presence.
I suggest they study a black cab driven in London.
The vehicle is about the size of a Transit and most are driven in a decisive, rather than aggressive, way.
Other drivers routinely give way, let them in to a gaps, and just accept they will start and stop as they please.
That's presence.
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What are your thoughts on presence?
I like presence at Christmas time.
;-)
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iqn869 you beat me to it:
Darth Vader: 'I know what you've got for Xmas'
How so?
DV: 'I felt your presence'
Sorry. get me coat...
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When I was a 'yoof' i had an Escort XR3i, which was a good handling car, but being 1600cc, not overly quick. When I swapped it because i didn't really like it, I bought a V6 Sierra 2.3. As soon as i'd changed, I immediately noticed a difference in attitude from other drivers. I realised what a pain in the rear the XR3i was...i.e. people not letting you out of junctions or trying to 'see you off' from the lights. In the Sierra you were completely ignored.
So obviously there are cars out there with negative presence.
I'd rather have a 'Q' car any day of the week. A mate's XJR is exactly that if you discount the prestige element, the boy racers don't give it a second look, yet an 'A' road overtake can be completed quicker than most things on the road can achieve.
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Few years ago now but when I had a huge great white Volvo estate it was uncanny how much progress one could make on the motorway. Other drivers often used to move over very politely. Especially effective around dusk with the sunroof on tilt........
;-)
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A roof mounted ski rack works well too! :-)
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...sunroof on tilt...
Extra downforce, eh? Very clever.
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someone driving a pick-up isn't going to worry about it too much!!
On the contrary, us lorry drivers give pickup drivers room because
a) they're likely to be earning a living whilst driving it
b) they're likely to be paying attention to the road, unlike a lot of car drivers, and
c) they've got the power to pull out and get on with it without baulking us, so we don't mind!
Dave TD.
Edited by Dave_TD {P} on 14/05/2009 at 22:01
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I found my old-shape Rover 418TD had the inverse of road presence - when driving it I was more often cut up, boxed in and not let out of junctions than in any other car I've owned.
Now I know what it's like to own a BMW ;-)
edit - A friend's dad is a car dealer, when my friend was "between cars" daddy would lend him something from the forecourt. His daily office commute was 25 minutes in a Merc C320, a Volvo C70 etc but 35 minutes in a 320d...
Dave TD
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someone driving a pick-up isn't going to worry about it too much!!
>>On the contrary, us lorry drivers give pickup drivers room because
>>a) they're likely to be earning a living whilst driving it
>>b) they're likely to be paying attention to the road, unlike a lot of car drivers, and
>>c) they've got the power to pull out and get on with it without baulking us, so we don't mind!
>>Dave TD.
Sorry Dave TD, I was thinking of the average pleb on the road, not the truckers, I would much rather be on a road full of trucks than one full of cars.
Agree with your three points you made.
It's refreshing to be given some consideration when towing a horsebox - but I bet you can guess which group it comes from (it ain't the car drivers generally).
I think all car drivers should spend a week on the road in a truck (even if it's only a 7.5 tonner) to see what it's like on the road when you have to think !!!
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I once drove a 7.5 tonner from Frimley to Southampton to help a family member move house.
It went without incident until someone pulled out in front of me on the M3.
He was driving a truck!
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I once drove a 7.5 tonner from Frimley to Southampton to help a family member move house. It went without incident until someone pulled out in front of me on the M3. He was driving a truck!
It happens, but car drivers do it a lot more, I drove a 7.5 tonner from Portsmouth to Fife and back, the main problems were car drivers, the truckers were good, at one point I was over optomistic in overtaking an artic and only managed to get half-way alongside it before I ran out of steam, I'm sure the artic driver realised this and accelerated slightly to pull ahead of me so I could slip back in behind him - a true gent!!
Also towed a horse box to Carlisle and back, I lost count of the number of times I had to overtake cars with caravans and solo cars so I could keep a decent speed up, that was both with an empty box and also with the horse in it.
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IMO, the old style mini and the Fiat 500 have "huge presence" on the road. I cannot agree that 300c drivers are anything other than pretenders to owning a Bentley I'm afraid. A bit like the Chinese imitation Rollses if I have to be polite. They don't have presence in my eyes, just pretensions, but I accept that this is a little rude and probably not genuinely reflective of 300c drivers.
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