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Good thread, yesterday, I went out in the snow on a 5 mile journey and got stuck behind 4 different 4x4s each for around 1/5th of the journey, Landcruiser, X5 etc... all going 15mph and dabbing the brakes for no reason and setting off from lights really slowly. The roads were just wet with a bit of brown slush and snow at the sides.
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There's actually 2 different types of winter tyres. 'Continental Europe' ones, and 'Nordic' ones. The first are designed for a mean average temperature of zero, and Nordics for much lower. They have the same names and tread patterns, but a different compound.
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There's actually 2 different types of winter tyres. 'Continental Europe' ones and 'Nordic' ones. The first are designed for a mean average temperature of zero and Nordics for much lower. They have the same names and tread patterns but a different compound.
1) Are you sure?
2) If so, why?
3) Where did you get this info from?
BB
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Try googling it, BB, there's lots of info out there... I've got the following (brief) stuff from another forum who have been discussing requirements for UK vehicles abroad in Europe in the winter:
1. Studded tyres e.g. Michelin X-Ice North, Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5, Vredestein Icetrac.
2. Soft/"Nordic" snow tyres e.g. Michelin X-Ice, Nokian Rsi, Vredestein Nord-Trac.
3. Hard/"Central Europe" winter tyres Michelin Alpin A2, Nokian WR, Vredestein Snowtrac 2.
4. M&S "all season" tyres with snowflake/mountain symbol e.g. Vredestein Quatrac 3, and others from DB's list above.
6. M&S "all season" tyres without snowflake/mountain symbol e.g. ?
7. Summer tyres e.g. Michelin Energy Saver, Nokian H, Vredestein T-TRAC Si.
His catagories, but give a reasonable idea... "snowheads" is the forum, btw...
Quite frankly I'm not going to get chains, winter tyres, etc, for a couple of days a year where if I take it easy and restrict my journeys I can get by...
Storm in a teacup!
Edited by b308 on 07/02/2009 at 10:09
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I don't understand the reluctance to buy winter tyres unless you only intend to keep the vehicle for a short time, say less than 3 full years.
My set go on in November when the freeze starts and will come off in March when its over.
During those 4 months the summer set have been unused and you've benefitted from the huge cold wet weather grip offered by those tyres anyway, which until you've tried them you woundn't imagine (not Chinese ditchfinders).
All you need is to buy a set of used wheels for the winter set, it has the added bonus of your prime summer set never seeing any salt, and will unlikely need replacement unless your mileage is excessive.
So our costs for the winter set were 160ish pounds for a set of alloys, the tyres will work out at zero cost over say 5 years which i think they'll manage quite easily.
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Since when did we have a freeze from November to March? Sorry, GB, I do not feel that our climatic conditions justify a whole set of new tyres... in Germany and other countries where winter conditions are truly winter conditions then a set is justified... but in the majority of the UK they are only really needed for several days... and even then a suitable amount of caution when driving is a viable alternative.
Edited by b308 on 07/02/2009 at 10:31
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But the whole point about winter tyres is that they are designed to have increased grip below 7 degrees, whereas the grip of summer tyres falls sharply below that temperature.
Winter tyres are not just snow tyres, the difference in grip on the pick up when the tyres are changed over is astonishing.
Most days when swmbo goes to work from mid Nov its well below those temps, easily worth the non cost to us anyway..
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It doesn't have to be freezing to lose some grip. Apparently 7C and below is the territory for winter tyres. I know mine are a little skittish on occasions. I may well be having to spend more time in Buxton (1000 feet plus) and the Peak district from this spring. Next winter I think it will be well worth getting a winter set.
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There is no freeze in the UK from Nov until March, not even in the Highlands. If you are not UK based, then I apologise now.
For the UK there is no need at all for separate winter tyres for most people. When the weather is really snowy, then chains are the answer for either 2wd or 4wd. But for the average motorist it is not worth buying chains or a 4wd for a once in a quarter century event.
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>>They have the same names and tread patterns, but a different compound.
Thank you for your efforts in trying to make me look daft b308, but had you read my post properly, you would have sussed that it was the above claim I was questioning, not the variety of tyres currently available.
But, otherwise I quite agree, a snowstorm in a teacup. QED
BB
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Thank you for your efforts in trying to make me look daft b308
Sorry, BB, no intention to do that, I appologise...
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Good thread yesterday I went out in the snow on a 5 mile journey and got stuck behind 4 different 4x4s
Surely you mean you weren't stuck etc.? ;-)
The usual complaint about 4x4 drivers is that they career about as if they're invincible, not realising that "the laws of physics apply to them just like everybody else" , so it makes a change to hear them accused of being over-cautious.
4x4 drivers are just drivers - there are the timid tip-toe-ers , the careful but confident, the blissfully ignorant who just get stuck and block the roads, and the self-deluding would-be-rally-drivers who often end up with bent metal, not always their own.
The two extremes I've seen this week have been a scared looking X5 driver going very slowly, and a young fellow in a Clio with blacked out windows, wide rubber band tyres, and enormous alloy wheels that had already embedded itself in the scenery on an easy stretch when I got there.
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I found that I could take things nice and slowly in my landcruiser. I could give plenty of time to stop and give way to others who were struggling because I always had enough traction to be sure of getting going again.
I agree on winter tyres - the standard tyres on my car are only adequate in the snow and ice. They're much better in mud :-)
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"There is no freeze in the UK from Nov until March, not even in the Highlands. If you are not UK based, then I apologise now."
Well we had 2 weeks of daily forst and 1C max daytime pre Christmas and 1 week so far much colder...
So I suspect that broad generalisation is like most others:--)
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Surely moped means mar-nov not nov-mar!?
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"So I suspect that broad generalisation is like most others:--)"
Not at all. Over the last 20 years, the UK winters have become more and more mild. The first bad winter for 20 or 30 years does not make a pattern. In particular the SE of England now does not really get a winter at all, compare with the 1960's or 1970's to see what I mean.
There will always be exceptions, such as people living at high altitudes, but they are a very small minoriy, and I am sure they can look after themselves.
Some people love to have the current few weeks of bad weather, because it gives them something to moan about; it justifies them buying a 4x4 despite never actually needing one; or it justifies them buying expensive accessories such as winter tyres much to the delight of the tyre companies.
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Moped do you live in a sheltered cove or something, i've had frosted windows nearly every morning between Nov and Mar for the past number of years at 4 am or so.
I seem to remember being jolly cold in my old ex WD series landrover without heater in various non existant winters. too.
Now you may not agree with winter tyres, but some of us have tried them after much research and find the cold weather grip benefits alone to be worth the initial investment, and the occasional bad weather benefits to be outstanding, and best of all free.
As i tried to explain above, if you are planning to keep a vehicle for a number of years there is no cost penalty save a small amount for some used wheels for the winter set.
By the way, i don't need to justify the purchase of a 4x4, i'm the one who worked hard for the money.
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"Some people love to have the current few weeks of bad weather, because it gives them something to moan about; it justifies them buying a 4x4 despite never actually needing one; or it justifies them buying expensive accessories such as winter tyres much to the delight of the tyre companies."
Don't have to justify what I choose to drive or buy to anyone (except SHMBO!) My decisions are made on what suits me and from reasonable formed decision making.
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Moped do you live in a sheltered cove or something
I don't and I haven't had frozen weather from Nov to March like you have... I can only assume you live up in the Highlands or Pennines, and not in Central England...
Fair enough if you want to buy winter tyres, thats your choice just like those who buy 4x4s but please do not try to justify the purchase by severely exagerating our weather... you are beginning to sound like those scare-mongers who write the daily rags...
Edited by b308 on 07/02/2009 at 13:31
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you are beginning to sound like those scare-mongers who write the daily rags...
b308, have i done something to annoy you.
How can one exaggerate the fact that every single early morning between those 2 months except for the odd warm week will be well below 7C and usually around the -3 to +3 range?
I'm not justifying my purchase, i like road grip in all temps and conditions, maybe i'm not skilled enough to manage on the same all year round.
Sorry if i sound like a hack, unfortunately i haven't bought a newspaper for something like 25 years, so have no way of comparing.;)
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"maybe i'm not skilled enough to manage on the same all year round"
Possibly you are correct.
How often do you drive at 4am in the morning? How often is the mean temperature significantly below 7 deg? You said that in NOV to March the weather is freezing...this is not true at all. It may freeze on some of the days, but certainly not on the majority of days for the majority of the population.
You may feel that winter tyres give you better grip in cold weather, possibly that is true on a test track. But using the same logic, why not spring and autumn tyres as well? Why don't you change your tyres when it rains, and then change back again when it is dry?
The UK does not have a severe winter at all (minus the odd exception in remote areas). If I lived in Norway, I would agree with you. I drive a 4x4 in many countries in temperatures from +50 deg to -20 deg, on metalled roads there is almost no noticable difference in grip...
You are free to buy a 4x4, you are free to buy as many designer tyres for it as you want, but do not suggest that they are necessary purchases in this country.
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designer tyres as you want but do not suggest that they are necessary purchases in this country.
I think this is the crux of the matter. GB, you haven't annoyed me, but your ascertion that we need winter tyres in this country is something that we'll have to agree to differ on, and whilst i accept that you may have not bought (or read?!) a paper in the last 25 years you will have seen and heard about the hysteria surrounding the bad weather we've been having the last couple of days on the TV and the 'net and your comments concerning suppoesed "freezing conditions" from Nov to March smacked of that!
I have no doubt that winter tyres do give more grip, otherwise there'd be no point in making them, but I have worked shifts for the last 8 years, setting off at 4 in the morning and getting back well after midnight... all I've found I needed to do when the weather was inclement was ease up on the old right foot and give myself more time...
Edited by b308 on 07/02/2009 at 15:07
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FIGHT.....FIGHT.....FIGHT.....FIGHT.....
seriously folks.. chill!
we all have different opinions....if one chap wants to spend money on wheels and tyres, or a 4x4 thats up to him!
if one chap feels that driving more gently works well enough for him, then fine!
no point in getting wound up about a difference of opinion in a forum!
(blimey... im sounding like a mod now..... HELP! (just joking mods.......)
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Anyway, I am converting my garage to buy 12 sets of designer tyres for my car..one set for each month!
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FIGHT.....FIGHT.....FIGHT.....FIGHT..... seriously folks.. chill!
Note the words:
"is something that we'll have to agree to differ on"
I'm sure GB and I have already agreed to do just that, ST... now where's that beer!
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As an example of how often temperatures are in the winter tyre range (7C and below), here is a Met Office link for the English Midlands tinyurl.com/bpf7ag during winter. This is for the year: tinyurl.com/c2r524
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That is data from 1971. The climate has changed since then. Ask any British vinyard farmer....
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1971 to 2000 according to the map...oops, duplicate!!
Mmm, spot the rivers... Severn bottom left, Thames bottom right and Trent top right... all the reds!
Edited by b308 on 07/02/2009 at 15:27
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In the Peak district, it looks like winter tyres needed all year round:)
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If something matters to you, you'll get what you consider suits you best. I dare say a fair few people under 25 in Newcastle on a Saturday night would deem it unnecessary to wear anything with long sleeves let alone a coat, but it won't stop me having a few layers on.
This is a discussion board - there are one or two people who perceive there's an argument that must be won when somebody has a different view.
Chacun a son gout.
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Gordonbennet - do your winter tyres have metal studs or spikes in them or are they just a different compound?
Who sells winters tyres - I imagine most places would not have a clue what I was talking about if I asked for them?
So, what is the point of these CRV/RAV4/Freelander type 4x4s - towing a caravan on some damp grass in Summer? What benefit does any 4x4, including the car varieties, give in everyday non-snow motoring?
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Try an Impreza or Legacy in the wet or dry and compare to a fwd/rwd competitor and you'll have your answer.
Have a look here and subsequent pages, it can explain it so much better than me:
tinyurl.com/d83kua
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I will not argue. However the 4wd web site is by Subaru, who are not exactly neutral in the debate...
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I will not argue. However the 4wd web site is by Subaru who are not exactly neutral in the debate...
Doesn't stop them being right!
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People do get worked up about cars and accessories. I have no problem with what people but don't tell me they are necessary. I have spent much time walking in the Scottish Highlands, and also the Oxfordshire Thames. Both are nice for different reasons. However, I am amazed at the people who walk along the banks of the Thames in Goretex boots, walking sticks and full mountain equipent for a 2 hour stroll to the pub.
It is their choice and there is no law against it, and presumably they feel better for it. However it is equally possible, and a dam md sight cheaper to walk in normal gear without looking like an extra from a Black's catalogue. The same with cars, if you feel you need a 4wd or designer tyres, then fine. But realise that for most people it is a fashion accessory.
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do your winter tyres have metal studs or spikes in them or are they just a different compound?
No they don't have studs, they are standard Vredestein winter tyres, designed to offer increased traction below 7C, not suitable for warm summer weather use.
I obtained my winter tyres from Camskills, but i have a very good indy tyre depot who know what they're talking about and will get whatever the customer wants, the fast fit places may not be so clued up on such things, maybe having a different agenda.
I haven't owned a small 4x4 or soft roader so can't comment, but drive a well tyred Subaru or similar in the wet for some sure footed road grip, if you enjoy performance there is no better way to put the power safely on the ground.
Compare to using the available power on a FWD performance car in the wet with the tyres constantly scrabbling for grip.
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Freelander 2 auto diesel in Snow mode has been everywhere I needed to go this week & am suprised at how hard you can push it But! I have found overtaking up hills in a snow bound lane tends to produce a two fingered brigade & plenty of horns as the slush goes flying! & as for taking it easy , well I keep it too 40 ish I don't want to risk sticking it in a ditch when a cars comes round a bend side ways in the other direction as happened to me on wednesday!
As for the best , my panda 4x4 fire with Mitchelin M&S's.
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>>So, what is the point of these CRV/RAV4/Freelander type 4x4s - towing a caravan on some damp grass in Summer? What benefit does any 4x4, including the car varieties, give in everyday non-snow motoring?
As with any car, it's the sum of the features vs. the owner's preference. I wouldn't try to sell anybody else the idea of the CRV 2 but it suits me.
- huge (compared with any mainstream saloon) interior space helped by the raised floor
- good headroom front and back, even with a sliding sunroof.
- good legroom, width and view for rear seat passengers who sit slightly higher - people who use the back seat often say how much they like it, unprompted
- car-like drive, not sporty but perfectly comfortable and with decent performance from the 2.2 diesel
- reasonable economy - average about 40 over the year
- swallows a bulky load when necessary
- tows a trailer and a 1200kg caravan without getting stuck on wet grass, and not just in summer (more useful than you might imagine)
I enjoyed the advantage this week - I was able to take to the hills a couple of times to bypass jams caused by stuck vehicles. I agree it's not worth buying one just for this, but frankly if I'd had a 2wd car I'd have stayed at home instead, rather than be stuck in the inevitable gridlocks on the main(er) roads round here. Beacon Road at Ivinghoe on fresh snow (maybe 1in 6 at the steepest points) was no problem - but I go downhill just as carefully as anybody else!
This one has VSA (ESP) and I don't really notice the rear drive kick in - its predecessor didn't, and it was easy to spot the front wheelspin and the jerk as the rear drive engaged; surprisingly the CRV has very good traction on slippery surfaces with 2wd only - I don't know what accounts for that unless it's the tyres.
What don't I like? The lack of reach adjustment for the steering wheel, and the side-opening back door which doesn't give any shelter from the rain when loading/fastening my boots!
So as you can see, it's not about "I have to have a 4x4" though that has become a preference now that I have experienced it.
Edited by Manatee on 07/02/2009 at 20:17
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- car-like drive not sporty but perfectly comfortable and with decent performance from the 2.2 diesel
Sorry, Manatee, nothing personal here but this is my favourite off all the descriptions of a 4x4 SUV's qualities! It has always struck me that if someone is looking for a car-like drive, then the best thing to buy is a...........
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If something matters to you you'll get what you consider suits you best. I dare say a fair few people under 25 in Newcastle on a Saturday night would deem it unnecessary to wear anything with long sleeves let alone a coat but it won't stop me having a few layers on.
I'll be driving through there later so will let you know :-)
In the snow earlier this week I saw two people out and about in shorts in Sunderland...
Edited by Blue {P} on 07/02/2009 at 21:01
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Replying to the OP, I would have to disagree and say that there is a big advantage to driving a 4x4 over a 2wd in the sort of weather we have had lately, (I own both)however in normal conditions and on tarmacced roads not much difference at all, safety wise etc
As for this obsession with 4x4 drivers not using the the full range of its abilities, it misses the point that most people who buy them do so for the comfort, the high driving position and the sense of and actual roominess of the vehicles
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> As for this obsession with 4x4 drivers not using the the full range of itsabilities it misses the point that most people who buy them do so for the comfort the high driving position and the sense of and actual roominess of the vehicles
I rather think you're missing the point. It's not just that they don't use the 4WD systems to their limits, it's simply that when the extra hardware could help them in a tricky situation they either don't think to use it or don't understand how to use it.
Then it's just silly having such a vehicle.
Personally I don't care what people buy their cars for, but if there's a feature that can help you out when traction is poor, it's their own silly fault if they don't take full advantage of it...
For the record, I like 4x4s, and may buy one for my next car. If I do so, chances are I may never use the extra abilities, but if I ever need to (stuck in snow, mud etc), then at least I'll have the sense to use them!!
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What about 4x4s the rest of the year?
I have followed them very carefully driving around the puddles in town! Why?
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I have followed them very carefully driving around the puddles in town! Why?
Because they know its an offence to splash pedestrians?
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>>I don't care what people buy their cars for, but if there's a feature that can help you out when traction is poor, it's their own silly fault if they don't take full advantage of it...
Oilburner, I might have mised something here, but how exactly are they not taking full advantage of it? If they have gone out in the car and not got stuck, hasn't it done its job? Or should they drive faster, and why would that be a good idea, given that they won't stop any better than anything else if they hit ice? No one should drive faster than they feel comfortable with and caution, even over-caution, is preferable to finding the limits on a public road. And why wouldn't 4x4 owners come in all grades of competence and confidence, just like drivers of lesser machinery (yes that's a value judgement!) or were all the non 4x4 drivers beyond reproach?
Do we pick on 'sports' car owners for not going fast enough?
I'd sympathise more with criticism of all those left home this week in unsuitable cars and blocked the roads up.
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