I have a touran 1.9 tdi (105 bhp) 57k miles with full VW dealer service history on the longlife service program.
It suffered a breakdown 2 months out of warranty and it has taken almost two weeks for the dealer to come to some kind of proposal to pay for the repairs needed. The car lost power while accelerating around 50 mph and a cloud a black smoke bellowed out the back and all kinds of lights lit up on the dash, we stopped the car asap. RAC (via VW Assist) surmised that the oil seal on the turbo had failed as the engine had no oil remaining in the sump and the rear of the car was covered. VW dealer sort of confirmed this although said they wouldn't know for sure until they started work on it. As it is out of warranty, they approached VW for a goodwill payment towards repairs. They say it requires a new turbo, catalytic converter and exhaust system. VW have offered 50% as a goodwill payment. This leaves us will a bill of around £1,400.
Is this resonable? Do I have any other lines to pursue? I have stalled them as they have had the car for 10 days (no courtesy car offered) while they've been waiting for an answer from VW.
Any advice gratefully received.
Edited by Pugugly on 24/01/2009 at 10:04
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I can't comment on the price or VW's offer; what would concern me is the statement that there is/was no oil in the sump! When as the level last checked and by whom, where has it gone and how can anyone be sure that major engine damage has not resulted from the oil loss? They have described turbo and exhaust damage - what about pistons, bearings, camshafts etc? More investigation needed I suggest. I do not think you have heard about all the damage yet!
Edited by Armitage Shanks {p} on 23/01/2009 at 15:53
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I too am concerned about this. The oil level is regularly checked and was normal before the breakdown. The RAC guy who recovered the car checked the level and it was empty. VW dealer reckons that there is quite a bit in the exhaust but don't want to take it off untill they know who's paying. What's my position if when they start the work they find more problems?
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They have you really over a barrel. I bet a court would think the offer 'fair' , but you should have had 10 years/120K from this at least. Unless you have a friend/family lawyer it coudl cost you the earth in fees.
Just make sure you get a petrol car next time- modern diesels suck
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The sump was empty because the seal on the turbo has passed oil into the inlet and the engine has run on its own oil. Its called runaway as the engine will run even if you take the keys out.
After a fast run has the engine been idled for 1 - 2 minutes to cool the turbo?
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As a general rule, not. It doesn't get a lot of abuse, though. My wife was driving at the time of breakdown, so I'll ask her how she stopped the car. Which? Legal services reckon I should approach the VW dealer who supplied the car for help with the balance of repair bill under 'sales of goods act'. Any clues as to what else they may find when they start repairs? Ta
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Any clues as to what else they may find when they start repairs? Ta
knackered engine... running with little or no oil will quickly wreck the engine...
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As a general rule not. It doesn't get a lot of abuse though.
Well thats part of the reason the turbo has failed earlier than expected, it tells you to do it in your handbook.
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What element of £1400 is for labour ?
You may be paying retail hourly rate.
Ask them to charge you warranty labour rate on your share of the bill .... should be about 50% of their retail rate ... about £35 / £40 an hour as opposed to £70 / £80 an hour.
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There are a lot of other manufacturers who would have paid the entire bill without question given the car's age, mileage, service history, and how close it was to the warranty expiry.
I know separately of a BMW and a Honda which had engine failures 6 months and 9 months out of warranty respectively, and the engines were replaced no questions asked.
There's not much you can do legally, as it does come down to goodwill, but I think VW's attitude stinks in this case. That said, my sister in law couldn't get a window regulator replaced FOC on her Golf when it was 2 weeks out of warranty, so I don't think the case is unusual.
The other option is to price up a recon engine and fitting from a *reputable* company (there are one or two to specifically avoid so research carefully)
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Think dealers have offered me their best price. After initial coolness, they have been helpful in dealing with VW. As for runaway effect, the car had a loss of power, didn't over-rev and stopped as usual when ignition turned off.
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As for runaway effect the car had a loss of powerdidn't over-rev and stopped as usual when ignition turned off.
So it sounds like the sump was almost empty before the turbo failure?
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Thanks for your various responses. We had our car back today, repaired and not needing a replacement engine. VW Uk paid 50% and legal advice from Which? is to sue the retailer for the rest under the sale of goods act, as it is reasonable to expect a car to be durable. I'll post when that process reaches a conlusion. We are not the only one with issues about this model car. Check WhatCar? users comments on the Touran. There are several owners dealing with failed turbos amongst other things.
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sorry to hear about this problem - I'd have been gutted
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Hi there "thestokers"
Thanks for your various responses. We had our car back today repaired and not needing a replacement engine. VW Uk paid 50% and legal advice from Which? is to sue the retailer for the rest under the sale of goods act as it is reasonable to expect a car to be durable. I'll post when that process reaches a conlusion. We are not the only one with issues about this model car. Check WhatCar? users comments on the Touran. There are several owners dealing with failed turbos amongst other things.
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I too have had problems with my turbo in my Touran TDi and currently in the process of trying to sue my dealer for the balance of the replacment.
I would appreciate an up-date on your progress.
In my case the dealer is attempting to have my Small Claims dismissed using a Summary Judgement hearing in January as they think we have no case/evidence.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Regards
Q
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Think you might struggle, HQ, he seems to have been one of our many one-off visitors, 5 posts all on this thread and last seen Feb09!
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No need to quote the previous post - see HJ's stickey above
Yeah, it was a long shot - thought i might get lucky!
Edited by Pugugly on 16/12/2009 at 13:27
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I would say that this is an unusual problem for this car and you just have to chalk it up to bad luck. These engines do not have a history of turbo failure at all.
Given that it s an 05 plate, I think a 50% payment by the dealer is reasonable, and if it were me I would just lick my wounds and move on.
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Sorry but they do. VW is not much better with respect to turbo faikures than other diesel engines. We really need to know how many miles its done before we can attribute a % of contribution.
Edited by Altea Ego on 16/12/2009 at 15:38
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VW don't make turbos in house do they? KKK or Garrett
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Sorry but they do. VW is not much better with respect to turbo faikures than other diesel engines.
I wonder how many of the prematurely failed turbochargers on the PD engine (and I too have heard of a few) occur on longlife serviced cars compared with the normal time and distance serviced cars? My friendly VW tech reckons most of the prematurely failed turbos he replaces are on longlife serviced cars, but that's just one guy in one garage. I wonder if this is a wider phenomenon? He told me in no uncertain terms not to buy a longlife serviced car when we were Golf hunting, and I dismissed a couple of otherwise lovely examples on this alone.
I can only speak from personal experience, but there are four 1.9 litre TDI (PD) engined VWs in our family, all on time and distance (10k) service intervals, all between 95k and 145k, and all are still on their original factory fitted turbochargers.
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Turbos don't die. They are killed!
I suspect in a lot of these cases the original owner has caused premature wear/damage by abuse or ignorance, but the failure only occurs 3 or so years down the line to the next unsuspecting owner.
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I feel for the stokers here, id be gutted should this have happened to me. My experience of VW dealers is not too good at all. Saying that i just wonder if there is an issue with the long life service. HJ always says change your oil regulary and we all know the golden rule when driving with a turbo. Let it idle when you have finished a journey. My father has a touran of this age, i will see what his is running like. The only turbo problem i had with the passat i had (1.9tdi)was a hose blew off. car was only about 200miles old. VW assist said this happens quite a bit.
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My son had a PD115 Passat, bought at 100k miles with full VW standard 10k SH.
He didn't thrash it as always got excellent MPG, mid 50's.
I serviced it every 10k from then with the propper PD oil.
Turbo blew at 149k.
I bought a high mileage PD130 Passat, turbo had been changed at 145k before I bought it.
This acr also had 10k mileage based SH.
So not an uncommon problem.
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From this forum and others (ClubTouran.net & WhatCar) there is no doubt there is a serious and inherent fault with the turbo in he 2005 VW Touran TDi (either in its design or its fitting) especially after about 4 years from new.
This may have been a problem previously but obviously these would have been repaired under warranty previously. Why its only coming to light now is simply because owners 3 year warranties are finished leaving them with with huge bills for repairing.replacing the turbo.
I would urge all VW Touran owners to publicise any problems with their turbos on this or any other forum.
If we all make enough noise perhaps VW will do the decent thing and issue a recall.
In the meantime has anyone got any confirmation that the turbo in the Mark II VW Touran has been re-designed/re-fitted to prevent the turbo problems plaguing the Mark I?
Q
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If we all make enough noise perhaps VW will do the decent thing and issue a recall.
No chance.
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VAG do not make their own turbos. They use KKK or Garrett. The Touran can be fitted with one a number of both KKK and Garrett. depending on the engine code and VIN. There were at least three different KKK variants, and probably the same on Garrett.
If you want to know what yours has then post your VIN (with last three digits as XXX) and I should be able to tell you.
We see a steady trickle of diesel turbo failures, probably most common are the Garretts on the Fords wth electic actuator. The ones of VAG PD's are normally among the more reliable, usualy problem is sticking VNT vanes due to the car being driven at low revs all the time. Changing up at higher rpms keeps the vanes free, but a lot of diesel driveres drive for economy and change up early.
Cant say I've noticed TOurans with more problems than average, we see one or two, but also other models in same numbers. Anyone got the P/N of the turbos that are failing?
100K+ from a turbo is probably a resonable life. Depends how the car is used.
LL servicing probably does shorten turbo life, if we see a young motor with relatively low miles and the tubo go its usually on LL servicing and been serviced evry 20k. So pay your money and take your choice.
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Hi Workshop Tech
Thanks for your input.
I will get you the VIN No. but I got a feeling its a KKK turbo.
I'm interested in your last paragraph in which you mention "100K+ from a turbo is probably a resonable life".
This is exactly the kind of statement I need for my Summary Judgement hearing.
If you are a qualified Workshop Technician would you be willing to put that in an email statement to me with your name, position and qualifications/experience?
Regards
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HJ in the Car by Car report for the GolfV mentions turbo oil seal failures (though doesn't say for which engine). The turbo in my 05 1.9 TDi Golf jammed (rather than seals failed) at 103k (see my recent 136k report) - engine code is BKC
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.I'm interested in your last paragraph in which you mention "100K+ from a turbo is probably a resonable life". This is exactly the kind of statement I need for my Summary Judgement hearing.
Thats an average figure, some last 60K, some last 140K and anything in between, user abuse causes turbo failure, read your hand book re allowing the oil feed to cool the turbos temperature before turning the engine off after a brisk drive.
I'd estimate that one percent follow the simmering instructions in their hand book - pull into the drive and jump out being the norm.
The days of the second user / 3 year old car purchase being the most cost effective motoring is ebbing away, big bills are going to be the norm for out of warranty 3-6 year old cars as they get ever more complex...................................
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I'm interested in your last paragraph in which you mention "100K+ from a turbo is probably a resonable life". This is exactly the kind of statement I need for my Summary Judgement hearing. If you are a qualified Workshop Technician would you be willing to put that in an email statement to me with your name position and qualifications/experience? Regards
I've a long list of quals and 32 years in trade (partner in business for 21 years). However I am not too keen to get involved in a court case, particularly as we brand ourselves as VAG specialists and often have dealings with VAG (although we are not franchised dealers).
I think you would be better off contacting AA or RAC technical dept and speaking to them.
Overally I would think you have a strong case anyway. My experience of small claims (from working with customers) is that they do tend to favour the consumer where cars are involved and if you have FSH from VW and just out of warranty then youll be in good postion. Also consider joining which magazine personal legal services, they seem very good and can get money out of a stone (this is again from customers I have spoken to).
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>> Overall I would think you have a strong case anyway. >>
Honestq hasn't stated the cars mileage, hasn't stated whether the car has history, how long he's had it, how may owners..........................
Plenty of modern TDs have been to the barbers for a trim, even privately owned examples
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I thought this was 57k with full VW history??
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That was the OP, who started this thread and has never been back.
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Ah, OK, I got a bit mixed up. Sorry.
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100K+ from a turbo is probably a resonable life. Depends how the car is used. LL servicing probably does shorten turbo life if we see a young motor with relatively low miles and the tubo go its usually on LL servicing and been serviced evry 20k. So pay your money and take your choice.
I mostly agree with this, however, provided that the LL serviced car is never run low on the 'correct' type of oil I dont think it is an issue. Provided you use the 506/507 spec oil it is incredibly robust.
A lot of turbos are replaced that do not need to be due to other problems such as sticking VN vanes or some sort of vacuum actuator or piping problem. I still dont see why Tourans should have a problems when most other 2.0 TDI engined VaG cars dont really.
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I mostly agree with this however provided that the LL serviced car is never run low on the 'correct' type of oil I dont think it is an issue. Provided you use the 506/507 spec oil it is incredibly robust. A lot of turbos are replaced that do not need to be due to other problems such as sticking VN vanes or some sort of vacuum actuator or piping problem. I still dont see why Tourans should have a problems when most other 2.0 TDI engined VaG cars dont really.
How do you know this?
Most of the failed turbos we see are on LL servicing. Same goes for cam wear on PD engines, even with the correct oil we see some with cam wear on LL, not enough to cause real problems, but it is observed.
We also see VW's with sticky VNT vanes and in my opinion this usually happens on gently driven cars where the driver always changes up early and the vanes dont often move through their full range.
I disagree that a lot of turbos are changed uneccessarily or for other reasons. Most turbo problems are straightforward to diagnose and nearly all of the ones that get swapped out are well shot.
I agree that Tourans shouldnt cause any more problems than other VAG cars with the same turbo unit fitted, we have not seen an excessive number of Tourans with this problem, but on the other hand there are not many about anyway.
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Is it one of those cases that its usually easier/cheaper to replace the whole turbo than just the bit thats gone in many cases?
Rather like "the fridge is knackered, its cheaper to buy a new one" scenario...
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We have tried to clean up VNT's in the past, but they usually fail again. Rebuilding the actual turbo is a specialist job and some dont take well to rebuilding (like the electric actuator ones on Fords). There are sources for exchange VNT assys, but we have not tried them as yet. Normally labour is quite high on turbo jobs and there is the chance of engine damage if things go wrong, so we like to get it right first time.
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Attn W - T
I'm afraid you'll have to get used to people giving their life story and huffing and puffing about this, that and the other without actually giving any relevant details
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It sounds as if we have had related problems on the same car and engine. I am now on my third turbo after just 48k miles! The first failed at just 8000 miles and was replaced under warrantee, the second failed at 48000. VW made a 40% contribution to the cost of that replacement, the minimum VW-UK will offer in these circumstances. My repeated attempts to get a better deal out VW Customer Service Department got me total silence. My contact at VW was Brian Kattenenburg, you can write to him at volkswagencustomercar@volkswagen.co.uk
When my second Turbo failed I insisted on keeping it so it could be examined by a turbo specialist I met. He was appalled by the poor quality of VW engineering and told me that I may have bigger problems to come. The compression impeller which failed this time got mashed up and cracked away from the joint shaft, jamming the turbo solid. Since this path leads directly into the cylinders, any metal fragments that got inside the engine can only escape through the exhaust valves.
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Most mechanics I have spoken to say turbo failures on small diesels are very rare; they are surprised to hear about my problems. Turbo-diesel engines have been made and fitted by most car makers over the last 20 years, there must be many millions of them in use; they are usually quite reliable. But one independent diesel mechanic in the midlands told me that he had replaced 7 turbochargers on VW 1.9TDI engines in the last 3 years! He suspects that VW have a specific problem with the 1.9 PD engines.
I suspect that the long life oil service regimes offered by several manufacturers may be part of the problem. Fully synthetic oil does last longer, but any debris and fine particles in the oil remains in the engine longer as a result. Every mechanic I spoke to said change your oil and filter every 10,000 miles or less.
Perhaps VW produced a bad batch of turbochargers for the 1.9TDI PD 105 engines, but never acknowledged it. Alternatively the low build quality of these units has never been fixed, so ALL of them are vulnerable. Last week I discovered that VW are replacing all PD engines with proper common-rail turbo diesels on new cars.
I wonder why?????
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VW do not make turbochargers. As to common rail - that's still dependent on turbocharging:)
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I wonder why?????
One high pressure pump is cheaper to manufacture than 4.
VAG turbos are manufactured by Garrett and KKK.
Was the oil feed pipe to the new turbos replaced at the same time?
After a drive do you allow the car to idle to allow the oil to cool the turbo bearings before switching off?
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Plunder - blade breakage is not an unknown problem - see my post higher in this thread and also
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=80...2
There may well have been a 'bad batch' of turbos... is your engine code BKC also?
I don't think the 105 has variable vanes. (My old 1997 Passat 110 variable vane tdi has now passed 200k...)
I would have thought blade breakage has nothing to do with lubrication, and therefore long life servicing. (The OP's problem was due to seal failure, a different issue).
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The blades break when the bearings collapse and the vanes hit the turbo housing
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>>But one independent diesel mechanic in themidlands told me that he had replaced 7 turbochargers on VW 1.9TDI engines in the last 3 years! He suspects that VW have a specific problem with the 1.9 PD engines.
I wonder how many VW 1.9 TDI engines your "independent diesel mechanic" has seen in that period - probably many THOUSANDS.
Risk of failure is relatively low - in our company fleet I have not heard of a VAG TDI failure now if it was a Renault . . .
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A salutory story which has my sympathy. I too would be concerned that the engine was out of oil.
I took out a warranty for about £300 and it paid for itself almost immediately and I still have it for another 11 months. I would take the offer, hope all was ok , get rid ASAP and take the hit.
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A workshop replacing 7 turbos on 1.9PD in 3 years is nothing - even if hes just a one man band.
The guy who is on his third turbo in 48k is suffering from somehting more fundamental that bad turbos. Never heard of this many failing on one car in that mileage. Would suggest either there is a problem with oil feed, fitting of turbo or the way its driven.
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The warranty period was clearly stated by the manufacturer and/or dealer and you can't really expect it to be negotiable. VW gave you 50% as a goodwill payment, and that sounds more than reasonable to me.
Edited by L'escargot on 10/02/2010 at 07:26
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The warranty period was clearly stated by the manufacturer and/or dealer and you can't really expect it to be negotiable. VW gave you 50% as a goodwill payment and that sounds more than reasonable to me.
Warranty on a new car is a contract between manufacturer and end user. Sale of Goods Act is another thing entirely and unrelated to warranty.
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Having just purchased an Audi 2.0tdi (on LL servicing as well..gasp!) , I'm always interested in the 'leave the turbo to cool' argument.
My own experience is that the diesel traffic cars I drive get thrashed down a m/way/around towns and are turned off straight away. We've never had a problem with them. Despite this, I still sit on the drive for a minute or two when I get home. Drive the wife mad.
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