IIRC 4.5% flat is approx 9% APR and the best loan rate at the mo is about 8.8%, so it's market rate.
How times change - a couple of years ago we borrowed for the Aygo and it was 5.9% APR - more or less BOE base rate.
Now banks want three times BOE rate for a loan.
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Did you notice they only seem to have a 36,000 mile warranty Stu? While industry standard seems more like 60,000.
Edited by oilrag on 01/12/2008 at 17:03
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Yes I did, but my misses does about 8000 miles a year, so that leaves her with 4000 miles a year leway before she is in danger of loosing the full 3 years anyway. As such, makes no difference in practice.
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I wouldn't buy a car with a name I couldn't pronounce.........
;-)
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I wouldn't buy a car with a name I couldn't pronounce.........
I wouldn't advise anyone to buy a car on finance in recessionary and deflationary times. IMO, it is madness to buy an asset which depreciates by a huge amount as soon as your name goes on the V5.
If you lose your job, or cannot keep up repayments, you will be in negative equity as the asset will not fetch the amount of the balance of the loan. The lender will chase you for the shortfall, sending in the bailiffs if necessary.
But that is my opinion, based on the experience of people who come to CAB for debt counselling.
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Stu has clarified his position many times here: the money is not a problem, his missus wants to buy a new car, she likes the Perodua, let her get on with it!!
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Stu has clarified his position many times here: the money is not a problem
Which is why it is being bought on finance?
his missus wants to buy a new car she likes the Perodua let her get on with it!!
Yes sir, Mr Mao Brezhnev Stalin.
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>> his missus wants to buy a new car she likes the Perodua let her get on with it!! Yes sir Mr Mao Brezhnev Stalin.
A poster argues for freedom of choice and does so using one of the rallying cries of consumer capitalism in the last few years--"she wants it ... she should get it"--and you invoke the Communist bully-boys without a hint of irony. Jolly well done sir.
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Didn't realise I was making a political statement there, if I was I think I would be more swayed to communism (maybe the Cuban model?) now as capitalism clearly does not work (I am 42 and this is recession number 3 for me!).
I also did not think that Stu was making a 'cry for help' either and presume that his and wife's minds are firmly made up re: the Perodua and how they plan to finance the purchase.
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In effect this has cost £8414 over 4 years (trade in, repayments and deposit), with not much resale value at the end of it.
If you intend to depreciate it over 10 years and not sell it, then it makes cheap motoring, tho repair costs may be prohibitive after 6 years because its residual value will be nothing.
The drawback comes if you cant keep up the payments because you are left with an asset that is worth less second hand (£5000 max) than the outstanding finance (£5664) as soon as its left the showroom.
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It seems to be un-galvanised too - that 6 yr corrosion warranty..
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Don't do it, stunorthants26!!!
Apart from the fact that we're all staring down the barrel of goodness knows what kind of financial crisis in 2009 and all the plagues and pestilence it will bring, protect yourself a least a little bit more by buying something that will have an ounce of street cred on the forecourt come resale time. The i10, the Picanto, even the Sirion have loyal followers out there, but I can't see anyone touching a used Perodua out there. Cityrover anyone..?
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Don't do it, stunorthants26!!!
If you must buy, bear in mind:
www.money.co.uk/article/1002113-interest-rate-cut-...m
and today's news:
newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7759576.stm
"... The pound was down 5.2 cents to $1.486, its largest one day fall in percentage terms since sterling crashed out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) in 1992.
.. The poor economic data increases the likelihood that the Bank of England will cut interest rates on Thursday. .. "
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Cityrover anyone..?
The Cityrover was an overpriced, badly built car with a dire engine that although performed ok did the MPG of a Jaguar. The Perodua Myvi is a modern car with great engine, MPG and value. The Cityrover was a bad product from a company that didn't understand it's own market or products.
I'd much rather have a Myvi than most of the European stuff on the market today.
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Once again it is good of you to let us travel with you in your journey of exploration - and congratulations on reaching the end (well, I suppose it's some time till Friday!). We took our Picanto out this morning for a very decent trot in pleasant winter sunshine and, as it happens, both felt pleased that we had chosen it in preference to the Myvi (though with the massive handbook on the back seat where it belongs, since the glovebox isn't even big enough for that!). On the other hand however if we wanted a new car I suppose it would have to be something different - and I'm sure the i10 wouldn't be different enough.
I see a sub-community forming here, of people who want a small conventional automatic car. Interesting that, when it comes down to it, we all come down to the same range of choices - it just takes some time to get there, what with all these people saying we should "learn" to drive a manual, and the bigger-name manufacturers offering only strange alternative devices or conventional autos only with bigger engines and at hugely greater prices.
Just don't drive past the dealers and see how quickly your Picanto vanishes from the forecourt.
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Im not really concerned about the depreciation issue, ive explained that to the misses but she said that the Sirion wont be worth £1700 more than the Myvi in 4 years time, so buying the prestige badge isnt really worth it - neither will be worth more than £2k most likely so overall, the Myvi makes more sense - spending £1700 to get an extra £1000 on future p/x say, makes little sense.
She has to keep it for the finance period, what she does after that will be up to her - I have guided her to the cheapest possible option within her criteria and we have worked out that even if she is made redundant, she has enough savings to cover the payments for nearly two years without issue and she intends to put away three times her payment every month so that she has a large cushion to fall back on.
Her job however is in what is so far a sector that is remaining strong and they are taking on staff still, so she isnt too worried about her job yet. Needless to say, shes not in retail!
The Myvi is one of those cars that either your brave enough to buy or not - the prices and deals the dealers will do reflect the lack of awareness of the brand, but Perodua have been here 10 years now and by all accounts, people seem happy with them.
Ive even been granted the sales figures for Peroduas from the dealer Im buying from, he was quite willing to disclose their figures for the last few years - he said they have dipped a bit recently but he has sold 15 Myvis this month which doesnt sound too bad given how few people know about them. He said if anything, people who know, are turning to Perodua exactly because there is less money about and the Kelisa especially, is stupid cheap.
Difference between the Myvi and Cityrover is simple - the CityRover was a shocking car, the Myvi is based on excellent engineering reputations and is a very nice car with a breath of ability.
We will certainly give as much feedback about the car as possible as with the relatively low numbers sold, there isnt much feeback available although HJ and Parkers seem to rate the car quite well.
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Good luck Stu - with all the prophecies of doom above you must wish you hadn't told us!
The following from Wikipedia suggests that Perodua is a reasonably big outfit in Malaysia:
"The Perusahaan Otomobil Kedua Berhad (English: Second Automobile Manufacturer Limited Corporation), usually abbreviated to Perodua (pronounced [pəˈrɒdjuːa]), is Malaysia's second automobile manufacturer after Proton. It was established in 1993 and launched their first car, the Perodua Kancil in late 1994."
It might be worth asking the dealer what happens to the guarantee if Perodua stopped importing cars (not suggesting they will but it's a reasonable question to ask in the current situation).
I think that with both Perodua and Proton the cars based on Japanese originals are fine, the ones they designed themselves more dodgy. As a reskinned Daihatsu your Myvi (quite a nice name isn't it!) should be a good one.
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Not at all, id reason that a VW is as much of a prophecy of doom just for perhaps different reasons. Everyone is different and I feel im fairly accurate in thinking that even in the face of overwhelming financial common sense, 75% of the BR wouldnt buy a Perodua just on account of the badge and pay more for the indentical car with a Ford badge stuck on.
I know from experience that some cars that most people wont even consider can make for interesting and individual choices - two cars ive owned, Reliant Rialto and Volvo 460, were derided by the press and yet for some reason, they both also have 'something' that gave them a degree of loyalty that on paper seems unwarranted. I loved both of them though, nearly cried when the Volvo was damaged beyond economic repair and I genuinely wished id never sold the Reliant.
The Perodua importer also imports Piaggio to the UK and they have been quite successful as they now have the microvan/pick-up sector to themselves - I know a salesman who sells Piaggio alongside Suzuki and he has contracts with local authorities and large companies who just keep coming back. I would suspect that the combination of the two makes for a nice little import business. I will ask though.
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Toyota have shares in Daihatsu and in turn, Daihatsu have shares in Perodua, what the precise arrangements are, im sure someone brighter than me can unearth.
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I think that Perodua have licenced the Sirion design from Daihatsu. Either way, it's a Toyota at the end of the day and none the worse for that. The 1.3 is a cracker, I test drove the Sirion and it reminded me of a hot Mini.
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Has it the same gearbox seal as on the px?
Quote
"Auto gearbox has some minor oil seepage at the top of the casing. Taken off and resealed under warranty.
At 20,000KM
- Gearbox had a huge MAJOR leak! The oil leaked and drained completely after 2 days!"
end quote.
Source
tinyurl.com/6x2kvc
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No, different engine altogether. Its interesting that the home market cars arent very well built BUT ive also often read that in the far east, the export cars tend to be of higher quality - so im reading the uk reports with interest. It seems a good check over for minor issues before collection should be carried out by myself, just to make sure everything is how it should be.
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>>money not a problem
Is this the same stunorthants26 who runs a carwashing business which is currently pretty marginal - and when people stop paying somebody else to wash their cars because the recession is biting his business will cease to be viable?
Or the same stunorthants26 who has to scrounge money from his parents to buy a car?
Or the same stunorthants26 who has bought a bicycle because he cannot afford the petrol?
Nuts. Nuts, nuts. Sorry. Don't buy rubbish on finance. All new cars are complete rubbish as they lose virtually 50% of their value the moment you drive them off the forecourt - actually, the moment you sign the V5. If you really enjoy burning money you don't have, then at least have the satisfaction of putting pound notes on the fire and warming yourself with it.
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Or the same stunorthants26
No, it is his "misses" [his fiancée?], who has had very good pay rises in succession and who is free to spend her money to treat herself as she pleases [as Stu says it is not his business to tell her how to spend her money].
As I have said before, such threads if penned by a new member - i.e. if they were not from a long-time contributor such as Stu - could be suspiciously viewed as classic trolling or signs of a walter-mitty personality.
But as Stu recently said, he loves cars and " In the last ten years, I have owned over 50 cars ".
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Fiancee yes, not married yet, June next year!
I have never scrounged money off my parents, they bought my first car when I was 17, thats it. In the last 4 years my grandmother has gifted me several amounts of money, but not because I asked. I play a large part in facilitating her living independantly, along with my father and she cannot do much physically for us short fo peeling a few spuds, but she does have alot of money and she likes to give it away to those she feels are deserving.
Its not just me - she has given my dad nearly £20k in the last few years to fund various things and thank him for spending his retirement handling her financial affairs and when she was living down the road, all her home maintainance.
Without us, she would be forced to live in a 'home' and to her, that means something - we dont ask anything in return, she is family, but on occasion, she willingly gives. Needless to say, her fortune is hardly dented!
I believe that my misses, who works 6-7 days a week, 11 hour shifts, is entitled to spend a little bit of her money on something she wants - its a big step buying your first car, with your own money and I would never deny her that - thousands of people do it every year including BR members.
Im a long-time contributor? I like that :-)
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I'm sure that the Perodua is a sound enough product, but alas perception is often greater than reality, and a used Perodua will have absolutely no resale value in the future. Sure you can't take a final trawl for a used Focus/Astra for 8K, which someone else will want at future trade-in time?
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Oh a used Perodua has some used value, perhaps not as much as the Daihatsu equivelent true, but the Sirion has projected value retention of only 6% more than the Perodua, which is way less than what it needs to be for the Sirion to make more sense depreciation-wise.
Focus is useless for us because it has a poor driving position and my misses is certain that she doesnt want to spend 7-8k on a car that someone else has already been hacking around in. She reckons that she will be keeping the car for a long while - Im not so sure, but she isnt into cars like me, so thats quite possible - she would rather spend money on Bones boxsets!
Oh and who says that car valeting is in trouble? Its not been my experience at all - figures are up 15% in the last three months over last year. Im so busy right now I havent got time to put the xmas decorations up! I always plead poverty - my father raised me that way - believe your poor and you will save more.
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Stu - SHUT UP!
You do not have to justify your financial matters here. It's your choice how you spend your money.
My only comment would be don't do it!.
Getting married that is, not buying the car ;-)
Edited by Chris M on 02/12/2008 at 13:05
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If everybody went out and bought Focuses and Astras without exception, probably in silver, the world would be an infinitely more boring place.
I can think of no car that screams more "I didn't bother thinking about this purchase" than a silver Astra 1.6 Club hatchback.
Good luck with the leftfield choice Stu.
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You may have problems getting any parts for the car, not much is listed in the aftermarket for Perodua's and dealers can take AGES to get even run-of-the-mill parts.
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Yes, ive become aware of that - luckily, I have three dealers within 45 mins of me so it shouldnt be an issue of distance. What I plan to do, is, warranty work aside, book services weeks in advance so they have time to get the parts in, although really, things like oil filters etc, general service parts, should be much the same as the Daihatsu. Once it is out of warranty, I will certainly persue that line when warranty ends.
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Bound to say this looks a bit desperate, stun. Are you sure you can't beat your Sirion man down a bit more?
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The Sirion is already £1400 under list - Ive spoken to the dealer already and he said he cant give much more off - he cant get anywhere near the Perodua price or finance offer - he simply cant drop another £1200 off the price, even if he could do the same finance rates.
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Stu,
Have you noticed that you can get a new Fiat Panda auto from fiatsupersaver for £6,195?
tinyurl.com/6ez6de
You would have the backing of a major European manufacturer `proper car` galvanising and warranty, cheap spares and so on. If you did keep it long term there will be availability of spares in breakers - no none galvanised rust - and if sold after 3 yrs surely more buyers?
That said i`ve never been a fan of the modern Fiat auto gearboxes, but it looks nearly £2,000 cheaper than the Perudua - and given a choice between the two...
I asked a mates daughter and she just wrinkled her nose on mention of the Perudua over a KA (I know;) but an indicator perhaps of its likely popularity when trying to sell the Perudua on in the future.
Edited by oilrag on 03/12/2008 at 08:13
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I have seen reports of patchy reliablity with the autobox on Pandas - some are good, some are not according to owners. Even forgetting that, the boot is tiny and the dealers are generally carp. At £6195 its only £1100 cheaper and the box isnt even a proper auto - no thanks!
I know its not galvanised, well atleast I dont think it is although im ringing Perodua head office to confirm this today. If it isnt, I will be applying a liberal layer of underseal the day we collect it!
I have told my misses that it wont be a very easy car to sell on, but having spoken to a couple of people who own Peroduas, they arent difficult to sell aslong as you pitch them right and dont get unrealistic with the price. Its not an unknown brand, just bargin basement image, much like Lada used to be, but you could always find a buyer for a Lada if it was cheap! If you assume that in say 4 years time, the Sirion with average miles is worth about £2000, then you only have to get £300 for the Myvi and its just as economically sound as it is £1700 cheaper. Im pretty sure I could get more than that for it though!
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Well the main thing is that your Missus is happy Stu.
Nice that she gets what she wants for Christmas ;)
Edited by oilrag on 03/12/2008 at 15:41
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If I said to my wife "I will buy you a car for Christmas Darling" No Way would I get away with a Perodua.
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Well you see in my family, we dont care much for self-image, we like value and reliability with a dose of customer service thrown in - rarer than you would think these days. Its my misses who likes the Perodua - she prefers the styling, the much cheaper price and the interior design. Perodua means about as much to her as BMW does.
Of course, Im not buying the car either. If it was for me, id have something different, but then I drive manuals, so the choice is huge. If I were buying a small car, id be tempted by the Twingo on style, the Citroen C2 HDi for the drive and overall, prob a Mazda 2 would be where my money would go although I have a dark desire to look like a hippy with a Mitsubishi i. I even quite like the VW Fox. Just nobody seems to want to stick autoboxes in superminis anymore.
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My wife did once say "i want a nippa"
"A Perodua?"
"No a little girl"
my hair went white!
Edited by Webmaster on 04/12/2008 at 00:31
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And then you joined the RAF and got a Vauxhall - perodua ad astra. :)
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I cannot imagine anybody aspiring to a Perodua to the extent that they are prepared to pay for a brand new one.
Sorry.
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Well to some people a car is not an aspirational purchase. For which I have the utmost respect. Rather people like that than the must-buy-a-56k-X5-to-show-off-in crowd.
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Well to some people a car is not an aspirational purchase
Although, to some people, a new car of any sort can be an aspirational purchase.
What I find difficult to comprehend is how in the space of three months when the rest of the UK is going downhill, Stu and his "misses" have moved on from:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=66...1
"Much as I loath it, I have started to cycle places ... "
"My misses is even getting a bike so we can cycle to the supermarket eventually ...
We got fed up bouncing along the overdraft point these last couple of months despite both of us working and never leaving the house unless going to work or to buy food. "
And as he has said before "We are both on lowish incomes"
So ruling out that buying a new car is not an aspirational purchase in their case, what is the reason for Stu's misses wanting to buy a new car which is not very much different to her existing car?
Less than a month ago he was saying
"Picanto has sprung its oil leak - .... I dont see the point of fixing it for someone else to benefit!
"we will replace it in Feb with a Sirion auto "
"my misses was only looking to spend an extra £750 or so over her cars trade in value, doesnt seem worth it. "
Edited by jbif on 04/12/2008 at 11:48
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Id like to point out that was 3 months ago when my misses had two jobs - now she has junked one, gone full time at the other and been promoted with payrise. Things move on - im still penny-pinching, but thats my way anyway - im even settled on a car for the first time in years.
I think the aspirational bit is like this - she doesnt aspire to own any particular brand, she wants a new car so she has something that is almost a dead-cert to never let her down, she wants something more powerful and something that, looking forward, could cope with atleast one child. The Picanto is no good for this due to an especially small boot.
Sure a new car is expensive, but she doesnt want to spend good money on something that has already been driven and run by someone else. Its her choice and I do understand it.
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but she doesnt want to spend good money on something that has already been driven and run by someone else.
That sounds very much in keeping with your own views as posted and defended by you previously on this forum. Wonder if she has picked up those vibes from you. ;-)
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I`m looking forward to seeing a pic of the new car at Stu`s place - perhaps with a Christmas ribbon and the boss giving the finger to her internet followers ;);)
Edited by oilrag on 04/12/2008 at 12:13
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.... dealer Im buying from, he was quite willing to disclose their figures for the last few years - he said they have dipped a bit recently but he has sold 15 Myvis this month
Amazing dealer. The whole of UK figures for all Peroduas sold in November was 32*. So it seems that Stu's dealer alone accounted for nearly half the total sales for November, and that was just for one model, the Myvi.
Perodua's annual sales* represent about 3 in every 10,000 cars sold in the UK. [605 sold in 2008 to date]
Daihatsu's annual sales* represent about 23 in every 10,000 cars sold in the UK. [4666 sold in 2008 to date]
*source: www.smmt.co.uk/articles/article.cfm?articleid=18615
Edited by jbif on 04/12/2008 at 12:47
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At 12.38 - Stu seems to have changed his mind and is on the other thread about the Sirion
"Im pretty certain now that the price gap has been closed up significantly, the Sirion is the best option."
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=69...5
Edited by oilrag on 04/12/2008 at 12:52
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Stu seems to have changed his mind
Is it not his "misses" who has to change her mind? ;-)
Stu keeps telling us that he has no influence on her.
Edited by jbif on 04/12/2008 at 12:53
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Of course I have influence, but it is her who decides what she can afford and which car she thinks is the better deal - she said if the Sirion came in around the £130 pm mark, it would be worth the extra - now that it is, the goalposts have moved towards the Daijit.
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Yes very much so - the Perodua made sense when it was alot cheaper but now that gap has closed, it makes far less sense. Im not going to ask the Perodua to improve their deal, my misses has said she is happy with the Daihatsu one ( just had a text ) now.
Just goes to show, you have to keep trying right up until you sign on the dotted line.
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Stu - I sense that uncertainty is creeping in here; Unless you / partner are 100% sure about the change I would suggest you keep the Picanto , take a step back and think about it, don't rush into an alternative deal, you can always change (and spend some £££) at a later date.
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>Amazing dealer. The whole of UK figures for all Peroduas sold in November was 32*. So it seems that Stu's dealer alone accounted for nearly half the total sales for November and that was just for one model the Myvi.
Maybe Stu's dealer is 50% of the dealer network ;-)
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Alanovich>>Well to some people a car is not an aspirational purchase. For which I have the
>>utmost respect. Rather people like that than the must-buy-a-56k-X5-to-show-off-in crowd.
Quite. But if it's not aspirational, why buy new. It clearly is aspirational. OP's missus wants to show off to the world that she has a swanky new job, so can "afford" a brand new car. But a Perodua??????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!
Anybody with any sense would buy a 5 year old Almera for the price of a new pram (child-link). But no, on the strength of suddenly having a "good" job for two months, it's time to leverage up to the eyeballs, and borrow as much money as you can, in order to buy a brand new car. Yippee do dah. But then it's something called a Perodua, or a skivvy or something; now I don't even know if a Perodua is a make or a model, and I don't care. What I do recognise is a poor person getting horribly into debt - borrowed against an asset that will lose 50% of its value when it is driven off the forecourt. Bonkers. And will be a horrid, grotty, Taiwanese-built pile of metal that will feel like a second hand car when it gets round the corner (as it will be). And we're heading into a recession; used car prices are dropping like stones, still. Jobs are as safe as houses (which are dropping in value like stones so not safe at all these days).
If it weren't for the fact that some people here get their cars washed by Stu, I wouldn't believe a word of it.
Oh yes, and he wants to have children too; at which point his missus will give up work - at least for a while - and they'll be really short of cash but still struggling to pay the car loan on the whaddymacallit car.
Utterly, utterly, bonkers.
Oh yes, and did I mention that there's a recession on, and people are looking to save their pennies, and for all that car washing has gone up 15% in the last month, I reckon that'll soon go horribly into reverse.
This isn't flaming, or being horrid; this is trying to dissuade somebody who is a long-term and valuable poster on here from getting into a horrid mess. Don't let her do it, Stu.
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Don't agree. The lady in question wants a car which is as unlikely as possible to let her down. Having just been let down by a newish car whose history she knew entirely, this is a reasonable position. A 5 year old anything does not fit her bill. A brand new one is a good as she can get to realising that wish. If the purchase is aspirational, it is this which is the aspirational bit. Anyone seeking a status symbol will not buy a Perodua or a Daihatsu.
My missus just did a similar thing, trading in a 4 year old car for a brand new one as she's terrified of being let down by her car on her drive to and from work/nursery, especially with 2 children on board. There was no need, but she wanted to put her mind at rest. Difference for us is that we paid cash.
The poster's partner is taking a risk, yes. I'm sure they're sensible and grown up enough to have assessed that risk against the benefits of a new car. Good luck to them and if they do get in financial trouble, they have indicated that they have very wealthy relatives who will help out. Lucky, lucky them. I don't and probably never will have!
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My missus just did a similar thing trading in a 4 year old car for a brand new one as she's terrified of being let down by her car on her drive to and from work/nursery especially with 2 children on board.
Wouldn't AA / RAC Homestart or whatever be a better option financially? It's not like a new / nearly new car is an absolute guarantee of reliability.
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We are in the RAC already. The thought of waiting an hour or more in the dark and peeing rain at the side of a very busy commuter route with a screaming baby and a crying 4 year old do not appeal to her. But I still keep membership going just in case.
I know it's no guarantee, there's no such thing, but it's the best one can do in reality.
And sometimes you just have to do as you're told.
When the children are older and taking themselves to and from schools I'm sure we'll be able to do it a different way, but whilst we can afford the new car and that's what the boss has decided, then that's the way we've gone.
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I know it's no guarantee there's no such thing but it's the best one can do in reality.
Yep, a point that continues to evade some folks, absolutely no cars are 100% guaranteed reliable.And sometimes you just have to do as you're told.
LOL, yeah, I can relate to that. SWMBO always drives nicer cars than me ;-)
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LOL yeah I can relate to that. SWMBO always drives nicer cars than me ;-)
Ha! No kidding. Her: Brand spanking VW Touran 2.0TDi SE DSG. Me: Nearly 4 year old Fiat Stilo. I do like the Stilo though. Just thinking though, if she's worried about breaking down with the kids on board, then so should I be, huh? Would quite fancy a brand spanking Skoda Octavia estate myself, perhaps with the same trim level and DSG gearbox as the Touran. Hmmmm. And those Passat CCs do look stonking too. I think we need to talk.
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Having just been let down by a newish car whose history she knew entirely, this is a reasonable position ..
Except that the car only broke down after the "misses" decided she wanted a new car.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=68776&...f
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>>The lady in question wants a car which is as unlikely as possible to let her down.
In which case, the last thing she wants is a brand new car. I am sure I'm correct in saying that a car is more likely to visit a garage in the first six months of its life than in any other six month period.
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Visiting a garage is not the same thing as breaking down mid-journey. This is what I believe the ladies under discussion wish to avoid.
If you can provide stats to show that brand new cars break down more often than 5 year old Almeras, I'll bow to your superior.
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"In the mid-life of a product - generally, once it reaches consumers - the failure rate is low and constant. In the late life of the product, the failure rate increases, as age and wear take their toll on the product."
So once a car reaches the comsumer the failure rate is low and constant, then the failure rate increases as it gets older.
So new cars fail less than 5 year old Almeras. Or am I missing something?
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>>So new cars fail less than 5 year old Almeras. Or am I missing something?
Yes. Everything. Ignore that sentence unless you are in the habit of buying ex-demonstrator cars with 5k miles on them. The best cars are ex-demonstrators as the garage will have had them to pieces to keep them tuned in tip top spec.
The bathtub curve represents the likelihood of failure of the vehicle with time. So when you first get it, it's more likely to fail; once teething problems are dealt with, it will be reliable; as it gets older, more components are likely to fail.
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"Ignore that sentence". Hmm. OK. So that this theory can be applied to cars? It's pretty hard to make it fit if you don't ignore it. The article states that the early life of a product is that part of its life before it's delivered to the customer, i.e product development, prototypes etc.
Some say ex-demos are a bad idea as they will have had the bejaysus revved out of them by sales staff without being run-in properly.
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i.e product development, prototypes etc.
No, the product development isn't featured on the bathtub curve at all. But, any testing which is done as the item rolls down the production line is part of the bathtub curve for that individual product, with many early failures being rectified before the item even leaves the factory. Then, for a motor car, it undergoes further inspection and a road test as part of the PDI.
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So is this evidence that a 5 year old Almera is more reliable than a brand new car?
Given the choice, ceteris paribus, would you stick your wife and children in a brand new Touran or a 5 year old Almera?
Still can't measure up what you're saying with "In the mid-life of a product - generally, once it reaches consumers - the failure rate is low and constant. In the late life of the product, the failure rate increases, as age and wear take their toll on the product." Surely this would apply to brand new cars as much as 5 year old Almeras.
Also, to quote the wiki article, "While the bathtub curve is useful, not every product or system follows a bathtub curve hazard function". Cars?
Not seeing any hard evidence here for 5 year old Almera vs brand new cars. Specifically.
But I am no engineer, I am a linguist.
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So is this evidence that a 5 year old Almera is more reliable than a brand new car?
The latest report by Whatcar [not linked here as it may be against site policy] published on 2 Dec 2008, is titled "Reliability Supertest 2008 ". Find it using a search engine.
"The cars in the survey are between one-and-a-half and nine years old. .."
Among the Best cars: Nissan Almera '95-'99 with 5 faults per 1000 cars.
"Nissan is consistently in the top 10 most-reliable manufacturers, and this year the popular X-Trail is its most-dependable model, with just four failures per 100 cars.
The Micra, Almera and Primera weren't far behind.
Axle, suspension and electric complaints caused the lion's share of repairs, but braking and fuel systems were also a slight weakness.
Average repair bills were low though, at £277."
For VW, it says:
"Volkswagen has dipped into the bottom third of manufacturers this year.
The only car to get a maximum five-star reliability rating was the ('99-'05) Lupo, with 18 claims per 100 cars.
The ('94-'00) Polo was the next-most reliable, with 23 claims per 100 cars.
The worst model was the ('00-present) Sharan, at 36 claims per 100 cars.
Electrical gremlins were the biggest single cause of VW failures."
Edited by jbif on 04/12/2008 at 16:28
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The cars in the survey are between one and a half and nine years old. How does this relate to brand new cars? How does '95-'99 model Almeras relate to five year old Almeras? It's a whole different model.
Don't get me wrong, I'm quite a fan of Almeras.
I know how to use search engines, thanks very much. Really hate patronising comments like that.
I think this conversation is getting silly. So I'm going to shut up. Besides, it was Mrs A who insisted on the brand new car and, as I said, sometimes we have to do as we're told. But I'm not convinced she's entirely wrong, either.
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If you look, yes I did specifically qualify that the cars were outside the range.
I know how to use search engines, thanks very much. Really hate patronising comments like that.
Well then I think your linguistic skills are just as lacking as your Engineering skills. If you look carefully at my post, you will see that I explained why I could not provide a link, but then gave enough information to enable those who were interested to hunt down the relevant link. Sorry if you take umbrage at that.
So I'm going to shut up. Besides, it was Mrs A who insisted ..
;-) You must be taking lessons from the Speaker Mr. Martin, blaming it all on someone else.
p.s. If you know how to use the internet, how come I had to point you to the google map for Reading railway station?
Edited by jbif on 04/12/2008 at 16:46
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I do apologise, I misread your post. Comment withdrawn.
Yours,
The Next Speaker of the House
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>>Not seeing any hard evidence here
And you never will - the relevant statistics won't be available outside of the manufacturer.
The point being made is that a brand new item may be susceptible to early failures, and this is usefully described by the bathtub curve. The accompanying text on the website isn't too helpful, especially the clause about reaching consumers, which in the context of cars, I describe above, but it doesn't invalidate the point.
>>"While the bathtub curve is useful, not every product or system follows a bathtub curve hazard function". Cars?
Some parts of cars, yes, the bathtub curve is definitely not applicable. For example, most body panels aren't susceptible to early failure, but they are susceptible to failure via corrosion when the car is older. For other components, particularly electrical / electronic partsI think the bathtub curve is fairly applicable.
Let me phrase it this way, I don't think there's any manufacturer who doesn't have a sizable warranty department!
>>Given the choice, ceteris paribus,
As most of the time, we all travel around in a 13 year old car, I wouldn't be at all worried about the prospect of the Almera.
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For example, some electronic parts I'm currently specifying will be burnt in under load for 24 hours at 125 degrees C - this screening allows any early failures to be discarded from the batch which are delivered, and will be flown. It means the parts are more expensive than off the shelf items, the testing and the yield needs to be paid for, but, you get a more reliable end product.
This burn-in is analogous to the ex-demonstrator car as described by Mapmaker, the early failures have been rectified, the duff components screened out by replacement, and the vehicle is operating in the flat part of the bathtub curve.
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Re valeting. I would suspect that the first valeters to suffer will be thoe cheap drive thro places because they attract cheapskates who are less likely to bother if they loose their jobs or things get tight.
Im not going to go into the ins and outs of my various customers finances, but there are very few of them that I am worried about. I am such a small spend in relation to what they earn, if they had a genuine need to economise, it is far more likely they will save £15k a year and not renew the Range Rover every two years rather than save a few hundred on me. Few of them work as such and those that do seem to be spending very freely on cars right now. Two have Jag XKs on order as we speak.
If your worried about your own jobs, thats fine, but please dont try reflecting it on others - my dads company saw unprecedented growth in the last recession because he had low overheads and was able to pick up the slack that less efficient companies created when they went under. I operate with the smallest overheads possible for very good reason - if valeting is going to suffer, I want to be the last man standing.
If I wanted to economise, I wouldnt start by not buying the odd choccy bar - id start where the real savings can be made like anyone sensible would.
I do have £120k stashed away over various accounts waiting for a house price crash - I just dont take it into account in my daily life because it is for property only, strictly so.
It will be a long time before I run out of money!
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Stu, why not play "Bank of Stu" and lend the money to your good lady at 0% interest, her paying you back monthly by standing order? Thereby saving her paying interest. It's gonna be a couple of years before house prices bottom out I'd think, which is what I presume you're waiting for?
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The money is only available in an emergency and I think that the misses should do it the way most people have to. You may find it odd, but she would hate 'owing' me money like that - its all too easy to think, its ok, ill overspend this month cos I want xyz etc, my loan is with my fella, he wont take me to court - I wouldnt but its the perfect way to ruin a relationship by creating debts between you.
We have an agreement with eachother that if either of us wants a luxury item, we pay for it ourselves but all bills and savings plans must be met first. If I ever wanted a new car, id have to self-fund it.
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It seems the 120k is not available for general use..
from one of Stu`s earlier threads
"We got fed up bouncing along the overdraft point these last couple of months despite both of us working and never leaving the house unless going to work or to buy food. "
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Stu, you don't need to tell us how much money you have in your bank(s)! Even if you don't run out of money soon, the banks might do :)
How you spend your money its entirely up to you.
I think this thread is no longer relevant as you've already decided to buy Sirion.
May be the mods lock this to prevent you revealing more of your assets :)
But, it seems that you do not understand the difference between flat rate and APR. This shows that you probably need to review your finance little bit carefully.
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... I wouldn't believe a word of it.
Mapmaker:
Do you mean: the fact that someone has heart trouble, someone has cancer, someone is giving away money left right and centre, someone who grosses £200 per week, someone has £120k cash stashed away, someone is changing to riding bikes because they cannot afford the petrol, someone has an ex-wife and children to support, someone who has owned 50 cars in 10 years, etc. etc.
Nah, of course, I believe every word of it, because I am sure Stu is not related to Walter Mitty.
Stu, please stop posting personal details of your family and just ask technical/factual questions about the cars.
Edited by jbif on 04/12/2008 at 14:19
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"Nah, of course, I believe every word of it, because I am sure Stu is not related to Walter Mitty."
Of course not - we know Stu ;)
As an aside - Walter Mitty was a motorist
Quote
"Not so fast! You're driving too fast!" said Mrs. Mitty. "What are you driving so fast for?"
tinyurl.com/as8qg
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>>someone who grosses £200 per week
No, it's £230 a week as business is good, so he is buying a new car with the extra £21.60 per week. One of the 15 a month that his dealer sells.
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>>Stu, please stop posting personal details of your family and just ask technical/factual questions about the cars.<<
Tried that and all people wanted to bang on about was how I couldnt afford it, even though im not even paying for it! Look how many people ignored the post and just offered financial advice.
As for what is true and what isnt - quite honestly, its a bit insulting to suggest that it isnt true - I have never once questioned the validity of what people say on here about themselves, how on earth would I know and why would I care?
Certainly people have taken what they want from the things I have said, cut and paste bits and then made a story a tabloid would be proud of.
I did feel petrol was getting a 'bit much' but I tried the cycling bit and got bored of it, sorry if thats not consistant enough :-)
Is it a problem that my misses has a congential heart defect? My dads cancer too? ( he has responded well to treatment btw and is recovering well ).
Who it is who decided that Im supporting an ex-wife AND children I have no idea - children denotes more than one - if anyone here knows of more than one child, maybe they could let me know? I never said I have to support an ex-wife, but its quite funny that someone took it upon themselves to fabricate that one - why why why?
I know I shouldnt respond, it just encourages more 'intervention', but I honestly cant wait to be told that I have married Britney Spears by accident with Michael Jackson as the maid of honour :-) while on the polar ice cap.
Thanks to those who do try to give relevant responses though, I do read what you say too.
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I think you have had the whole gamut of replies here Stu, this place is pretty wholesome IMO with decent posters, we are in difficult financial times as a country and I get the feeling folk here are looking out for you and thinking outside the box for you. Experience counts for a lot. Anyway don't lose heart.......
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