Forgive me, but i'm a simple soul.
The alleged cut in VAT, now the chances of buying something made in Britain therefore benefitting our economy are getting more remote by the day, unless i was to buy a car made in Britain....bear with me.
Therefore 99% of goods i am likely to buy will have been made abroad so of little benefit to the British economy apart from...you guessed it ..tax to be payable on the purchase.
Does this mean that our treasury is having a sale, hoping to go on the good old capitalist principles of pile it high and sell it cheap.
Maybe people will take advantage of a 2.5% cut in VAT and make some large purchases, but unless those products were made here, by British companies and workers paying tax and living here permanently whereby their income and other tax stays here, then what will be the benefit?
If i buy a load of foreign made tat, apart from the tax paid, what benefit to our economy, apart from jobs in the distribution chain, and the ever growing pyramid of Govt jobs overseeing the process.
|
And what's more no benefit at all on business to business transactions where the VAT can already be claimed back anyway.
Flag waving.
|
|
|
but unless those products were made here by British companies and workers paying taxand living here permanently whereby their income and other tax stays here then what will be the benefit? If i buy a load of foreign made tat apart from the tax paid what benefit to our economy apart from jobs in the distribution chain and the ever growing pyramid of Govt jobs overseeing the process.
plus...some people won't really need the tax cut/ don't deserve it, albeit it will be gratefully received no doubt (wealthy/non UK citizens)
so... spend this money on something that directly helps the UK..or does Europe not allow this any more
what about:
- a major cut in fuel tax for hauliers and business?
- major tax advantage for savings? (now there's a thing, actually encourage saving instead of borrowing and buying things you can't afford)
- decent equipment maybe for our armed forces if we're asking them to do a difficult job, get it built and supplied here. If we need aircraft carriers and submarines, then get on with it, have British jobs secured building them.
there must be a host of things that could have long term benefits for the UK, rather than give us all a bit more leeway to buy more stuff abroad at the expense of future tax bills, because it'll have to be paid for one way or another one day. Seems wasteful to me.
|
|
|
|
Well said GB - our government once again not thinking things through I think.
|
|
Oh I think they've thought of it alright. VAT is a tax everyone pays and many people won't be bothered to do the maths. Highly visible headless chicken gesture politics that won't actually make much difference except as a spin opportunity.
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 23/11/2008 at 22:26
|
I'd thought of spin and the fact most won't realise the savings are small. And as pointed out if the purchases are not built in the UK it does not help industry.
But VAT is on more than manufactured good - its on petrol and diesel too isn't it. So they are about to go down by around 2p a litre give or take (more for diesel less for petrol). So driving 10000 miles per year at an average 40mpg you might save around £22 :-)
|
|
|
VAT is a tax everyone pays and many people won't be bothered to do the maths. Highly visible headless chicken gesture politics that won't actually make much difference except as a spin opportunity.
our government once again not thinking things through I think.
Yep.
1. We all know how the interest cut and the easing of credit was supposed to improve the situation for small businesses. However, Banks [despite a lot of arm twisting] are not passing on the benefits to small businesses. Why? Because the treasury wants to charge the Banks a high premium interest for the loans that the Treasury is making to these Banks.
2. VAT - I already know that some retail businesses are planning NOT to pass on the cuts to consumers - i.e. they will not cut their selling prices to customers. So a product on sale today for £117.50 will stay at £117.50, but the business will just pay less vat to the vatman and pocket the difference as an improved margin to help their hard pressed business to survive. These businesses feel that the only thing that the consumer in the high street notices is BIG headline cuts - such as "SALE, save 50%", and a cut in VAT from 17.5 to 15% means nothing to their customers.
3. Imported goods prices are likely to go up by a much higher amount than the VAT cut, as the effect of the 50% drop in value of sterling starts to feed through.
tinyurl.com/68t9ng
"Sony to raise prices by up to a third to offset tumbling value of the pound. "
|
Humph said : >> Highly visible headless chicken gesture politics that won't actually make much difference except as a spin opportunity. >> Probably true but unless a difference is made, the recession will probably be worse and longer lasting.
But many of us on here probably already have most of what they want and can reasonably afford. So what will tempt me to spend? 2.5% cut in VAT? Nope. VED increases shelved? Nope.
Increase in my nett income because of tax reduction? Far more likely. If I'm allowed to retain more of what I earn, it will probably go back into the economy as general spending though probably not on "big ticket" items.
I have a horrible feeling that Brown and Darling will spend money without achieving much in the way of staving off the recession.
|
Perhaps many are missing the point(s) about a VAT rate reduction. It's going to have a cumulative effect - save a bit here, a bit there - the net effect will be more disposable income.
Don't focus on the oh, that's only 10 quid off a tv, it wouldn't make me buy one' , more 'Oh, look I've got £50 more this month'.
VAT is also levied on services. Something we 'make' quite a lot of. Even if headline service costs don't immediately reflect the VAT rate cut, it will give greater flexibility & profitability to businesses. Think of all the local service businesses you employ in one way or another - even the non-VAT registered will benefit as they can't reclaim their VAT - money for small businesses in other words.
No, it won't encourge people to go out & spend more on big ticket items (good - they're mostly made abroad anyway), but we will spend more (or save more) on local or indigenous product
& services.
|
Whats all this "it'll cost 12 bn" malarky?
Doesnt it depend on how much gets sold anyway. I would suspect 12 bn is based upon a good year of VAT collection. If we are keeping our hands in our pockets then it will be less than 12 bn cost.
I wont be spending anymore. I doubt I'll see any reductions other than maybe petrol and supermarket who are high profile players and must be "seen" to be chopping cost. Smaller retailers and businesses will be keeping the 2.5 pc chop and who can blame them. If I were a retailer I certainly wouldnt be passing it on. Bit like the banks really.
£50 more a month? - nice little lump to help pay down the cardit card more like.
|
>>£50 more a month? - nice little lump to help pay down the cardit card more like.
So, the banks will have a bit more to lend then - to small businesses perhaps. It all counts.
|
|
|
|
Well, I suppose that a VAT cut will reduce the pump price of fuel - until the next increase from OPEC!
OTH - the taxing @ 45% of people earning over £150K per annum is a retrograde step in terms of encouraging high earners to stay and pay their tax in the U.K.
It's interesting that this new swingeing rate is set to kick in at a level in excess of M.P.'s basic salaries, isn't it? Mind you their perks and allowances (untaxed) make the career a nice little earner.
Edited by malteser on 24/11/2008 at 13:47
|
>>OTH - the taxing @ 45% of people earning over £150K per annum is a retrograde step in >>terms of encouraging high earners to stay and pay their tax in the U.K.
Well, if you earn over £40K-odd currently you pay 40% on the marginal amount. So 45% marginal on gross over £150K doesn't look totally unfair to me. Not sure it's enough to precipitate an exodus though - where, these days (of comparable standing) doesn't tax, in one or another, progressively? If these sort of measures are implemented (higher taxes stemming from larger govt. borrowings/defecits) elsewhere in the affected economies, the UK
might even compare preferably.
|
|
|
|
Don't focus on the oh, that's only 10 quid off a tv, it wouldn't make me buy one' , more 'Oh, look I've got £50 more this month'.
Except that people won't see the "'Oh, look I've got £50 more this month'".
The way the Retail Trade works is not to price goods as "X" + "v" for VAT = "Y" total, but the price is "Y" of which "v" is for VAT, giving an ex-vat price of "X".
So you have cameras, TVs or sofas or beds or laptops or whatever priced at £99, £199, £249 or £349 or £499, and so on.
I do not think for one minute that come the reduction in VAT, those retailers will start pricing their goods at £96 or £ 195, or £242, or whatever the nearest £ is after accounting for the reduced VAT.
Nor will you see the Poundland or 99p shops suddenly becoming the 97p or 98p shops.
In other words, the ticket price will stay rounded down to the to the 49 or 99 magic figure under each £50 or £100.
Figures just on the lunchtime news estimated that each taxpayer will probably save £200 in VAT annually. That is the amount that VED rates [now to be postponed] were going to be increased by for some people, and that is the amount that the abolition of 10p tax band cost the lower paid.
|
I think that being rather simplistic jbif. The retail trade/ other businesses will compete just as fiercely as they are now, the difference being that they'll have a bit more to compete with come the VAT rate reduction.
Prices will, on average fall through this.
There will also be direct (or more transparent) VAT reductions - petroleum products mainly - this VAT is levied on the retail price which is re-claimable for many business operations. These fuel suppliers will also compete for market share - unless you believe in cartels of course.
I also think businesses, where they can, will make a maketing opprotunity from the VAT rate cut & proudly trumpet their latest reductions & 'challenge' their competitors to do likewise.
Edited by woodbines on 24/11/2008 at 14:07
|
will make a maketing opprotunity from the VAT rate cut
I am told reliably that the trade did make a real marketing opportunity of the change from the old d "dence" to the new p "pence" when decimalisation was introduced. :0)
|
the old d "dence" to the new p "pence" when decimalisation was introduced.
As I recall, d stood for denarius. It was verbally referred to as a penny (singular), or pence (plural). It was the government's intention that the new penny (p) should be called just that initially, with the word "new" being dropped after a suitable length of time. The government was appalled when a lot of the population started calling the new coin a "pee".
|
"As I recall, d stood for denarius".
Wow, can't be many backroomers that can remember back THAT far!! :-)
|
The government was appalled when a lot of the population started calling the new coin a >> "pee".
I don't think bankers are too keen on the expression 'filthy lucre' either...
|
|
'Oh look I've got £50 more this month'.
I calculate that that requires an expenditure of £2300 per month if it's all subject to the new VAT rate of 15%. I should be so lucky!
|
The real shock will come when he announces the governments borrowing requirements
In March he was forecasting approx £25 billion each year for the the next 3 years
It is thought he will be producing new 'guesstimates' of £100 billion+ for each of the next 3 years and thats being optimistic
If foreign investors start to shy away from buying government gilts, (which is how this debt is serviced) the BOE will have to start printing money to buy them instead and the next step is you and me having to carry a wheelbarriow full of money to Tesco's to pay for the weekly shop!
Debt and government borrowing on this scale simply cannot continue
|
Erm the days when I can charge £3000 to format a computer, I will look forward to that :D.
On a more serious note I don't get why people are not buying cars. I am sure the media have made the credit crunch seem far worse than it is? My business seems to be better than ever atm.
But then I charge £30 for basic data recovery, PCWORLD charges £100 and I am literly getting people phoning me up while their in PCWORLD asking how much I charge!
|
I think the PC World example is a fine one of why the credit crunch has been over-egged by the media.
Yes it looks likely that DSG including PC World might go bust, and let's face it they deserve it IMHO.
IMO PC World have (allegedly) modelled their business on preying on the technologically illiterate (not intended to be derogatory in that statement) and charging unreasonable amounts for very simple work. E.g. charging £15 to install a memory upgrade. It can be done literally in less than minute and it is nearly impossible to make a mistake in fitting it.
Sooner or later, treating your customers with such contempt with always going to bite you where it hurts!
It's the car equivilent of charging £500 for an oil and filter change. You might get away with it for a while, but sooner or later someone will come along and charge what it really costs...
Which brings me back to my point, in all this media hype we shouldn't confuse the demise of bad companies with the demise of the economy as a whole. It's more a sort of sifting of the wheat from the chaff and all complex systems under go it periodically in what is known in IT as "garbage collection".
|
E.g. charging £15 to install a memory upgrade. It can be done literally in less than minute and it is nearly impossible to make a mistake in fitting it.
It is remarkably easy to make a mistake. do you know how many different types of memory module have been used in the last 4 years? you are aware of anti static processes? Do it "literally in less than a minute? Nope not a hope - the boot up time takes longer than that.
Based on the value that's obtained in having more memory, 15 quid is not outrageous.
Not defending PC world in general tho. The DSG group will probably be a fallout of this crisis and well they should.
|
I thought my fags might get cheaper but apparently not...despite a reduction in VAT to 15% "he was increasing duties on alcohol, tobacco and petrol so they would remain at the price they are now. "
Petrol too? Cheeky whatsit!!
Edited by smokie on 24/11/2008 at 16:38
|
Petrol too? Cheeky whatsit!!
I've just checked the text of his speech. He did specifically mention "alcohol, tobacco and petrol" - if that was a dumbed-down generalization for all road fuels, then he's actually increased the cost of diesel for all business users - the VAT was recoverable; the extra fuel duty isn't.
|
Simply mind boggling public borrowing figures
The IMF will be getting a phonecall within the year, £118 billion deficit next year and thast based on the economy picking up in the 3rd quarter, no debt repaid till 2016! thats in 2 elections time! if it wasnt so serious you would have to laugh
|
|
And the reduction in VAT is temporary, the compensatory duty rises will no doubt be permanent.
|
|
I've just checked the HM Treasury website. Duty on both petrol and diesel will increase by 2p/litre on December 1 and by just under 2p/litre on April 1 2009.
|
It is remarkably easy to make a mistake. do you know how many different types of memory module have been used in the last 4 years? you are aware of anti static processes? Do it "literally in less than a minute? Nope not a hope - the boot up time takes longer than that.
Yep, I'm very aware of the fact that most machines made in the past few years use exactly the same type of memory (with some varying speeds) and it is very easy to find out what kind of memory you have fitted. Sure non-IT people might find it hard, but only because the industry intentionally bamboozles people into thinking it is difficult when it is not.
I don't agree that you can make a mistake, not if you're sensible. I've built several PCs of my own without problems and my anti-static procedure involves touching an earthed metal object (i.e. radiator) - job done. Not hard, just turned into a magical untouchable black art for no good reason. I'm aware of anti-static wrist straps and rubber mats etc and just think it's total overkill, as does everyone else I know successfully building their own machines, and all the tech specialists I've worked with in IT departments over the years.
Admit it AE, installing memory is childs play, it involves just 3 easy steps: look up or ask someone in a shop or online what memory you need, buy new memory from said shop, remove old stuff (if required) and plug new one in. It's not like you can even put it in the wrong way, and if it is completely the wrong type, it won't even fit.
At a push you could add another step: open box and check how many free slots you have.
I bet in PC World from start to end of process it takes no more than a slow pace 10-15 minutes including working out what memory is required, fitting it and testing it afterwards. Not bad is it, £60 an hour for practically unskilled work! OK, it's not exactly BMW Main Dealer labour rates, but then you don't buy the "BMW of computers" from PC World, do you! :) And I'd think we'd all agree that car techs actually require more training to do thier job than the semi-informed lot at PC World.
IMO, £5 is a more reasonable rate for this kind of work.
|
Oh ok we have gone from "literally one minute" to 10-15 minutes.
do you know how much it costs to employ someone? no its not the 5.95 minimum wage per hour. do you know how much the credit card company take from the cost when they process the charge? what about VAT? does your man have a steady stream of people so he can run at 4 an hour?
suddenly 15 quid dont seem so much.
|
Memory upgrades can be more than "childs play". Having to apply a lot of force the first time a socket is used can be a problem for someone who has not done it before. I've also seen memory sockets located in very difficult places to get to. On one of my old systems I had to take out a couple of HDD to get access.
|
You don't have to apply a lot of force at all, far from it.
Typical ATX motherboards are a piece of cake to work with, a fine piece of design by any standard. Memory sticks and CPUs pop in with zero force and all the bits are well labelled or colour coded with unique fit sockets and connectors. It really is child's play.
And I'm quite sure it doesn't cost £60 an hour to employ a tech guy at PC World, no way.
BTW, this sure seems reminiscent of very similar arguments made over the years re: car servicing eh?
|
This is turning into a computer problem thread ;-) Merlin is right that on some systems components like hard drives need removing to reach the slots. I've built at least one home PC for myself like that - it's a case problem.
But still think the PC World costs high. PC World staff also know very little about PCs. I know someone who worked in the repair bit that knows/knew nothing about PCs at all. Zilch.
|
|
It was a bit silly of us buying a new car yesterday and a new TV the weekend before. I am about £300 out of pocket if you calculate the 2.5% cut. Not overly impressed!! Now if they were serious about spending they would give me that back so I can go and buy something else on the highstreet.
|
Not sure which motherboards you are using. The first time I installed memory in a slot that hadn't been used before it wouldn't go in. I rang the crucial helpline where I bought it from and was told I had to apply a significant amount of force and that this is often the case for slots that had never seen memory before. Maybe crucial memory is on the large size...
I'm sure you are right about it not costing £60 an hour to employ a tech guy at PC World like it doesn't cost a car dealer £100 to employ a mechanic. However getting back to the credit crunch the shop floor wage costs are not where the money is (was?) going. It's all the other overheads such as the need for the shop (or dealership) to look flash, crazy land / property prices etc.
|
And I'm quite sure it doesn't cost £60 an hour to employ a tech guy at PC World no way.
so profit is a bad word in oliburnerland then? you may not be aware of this but tis stuff liek this that keeps us employed?
|
Ah yes, but coming back full circle to the credit crunch theme, sensible profit is good, obscene profit will ensure that someone, somewhere will offer the same product for less and put you out of business!
And that is what I believe the credit crunch is really about. Over the past few years many inefficient, pointless and/or badly run companies have been going strong, but their luck does not and cannot last forever. DSG group is one of them, Woolies another. Plenty has been said about the banks too.
Nope profit is good, but the price has to be right for the service offered. If it wasn't for our natural inclination to trust high street shops over internet retailers and big name service deals (i.e. Tech Guys vs independent computer repairs/upgrade services or British Gas Boiler Repair vs local Corgi bloke), then shops like PC World would have been blasted into the abyss years ago. The only value added for the high prices and inferior products and service is that element of perceived trust. Nothing more IMO.
|
Ok bring it round to my place.
that will be 15 quid. That frankly would be my minimum charge for anything.
|
|
Fair enough, any better offers? Rattle? ;)
|
Sorry to post late for this post, have been working. I have probably upgraded RAM on about 100 computers and in the past ten years (3 inc my business) I have used the following:-
30 pin SIMMS (make my Fiesta seem modern!)
72-pin SIMMS (in when my Fiesta was made) some were parity some were not parity. Had to be installed in pairs.
168 pin SD-RAM DIMM and within there was PC66, PC100 and PC133 varients, and then some had to be registered some weren't. Then some motherboard would only take upto 64MB DIMMs, others upto 512MB.
DDR - This did make things simpler but you still had to get the speed right otherwise they would overheat, there are other considerations such as voltage too.
DD2- Simple again but you still have to get the right speed.
Also with laptop SODIMMs it is possible to install completly the wrong kind fo RAM if you're heavy handed.
.*********
Where PCWORLD have gone wrong is £80 standard repair charges. Apart from motherboard changes I fail to see what repair could possible cost so much, remember this excludes parts. A new hard drive maybe as you have to reinstall the operating system/drivers etc so £80 is fair enough, but £80 to change a DVDRW?
I do go to PCWORLD as away and it always makes me laugh the way the answer to all softwatre faults seems to be Format C: /q.
Will I be sorry if the credit crunch means an end to DSG? Yes I will be, I used to work for them and I did not agree some of the sales policies they were ok to work for. I left as I could not sleep at night selling USB cables for £15. I will miss then as Curry's is always an interesting shop, like Halfords you probably would not buy much from there but they always have interestign stuff to look at.
PCWORLD need to target the geek market more, lets see some proper brand power supplies in there, I need to buy a new onwe for mine as it is getting noisy, want to spend around £50, I very much doubt it will be spent in PCW.
|
|
Indeed, I have some jobs for £15 if they are within 10 minute walking distance and the job takes me less than half an hour. Usually its £20 mininum though. RAM jobs as I tend to do while I am doing other stuff so I can compete with the computer shops.
|
Indeed, I have some jobs for £15 if they are within 10 minute walking distance and the job takes me less than half an hour. Usually its £20 mininum though.
Indeed Rattle's charges do seem very reasonable. Questions for Rattle:
Is your turnover over the VAT threshold?
Are your registered for VAT?
Is your business inspected by HSE?
Do you have to prepare accounts for the stock exchange?
What car/van do you use for your business? Does it meet minimum HSE requirements?
Is it insured to carry your business gear?
How much does your public liability insurance cost?
Do you pay business rates to the local council?
What proportion of your costs is attributed to heating and lighting and water rates?
How do you meet the WEEE regulations?
etc. etc.
|
A lot of questions
Indeed Rattle's charges do seem very reasonable. Questions for Rattle:
Is your turnover over the VAT threshold? No where near, I don't sell computers or anything, very rarely I will supply a computer at a small premium for posh people who don't have the time to buy it themselves.
Are your registered for VAT? Nope no point.
Is your business inspected by HSE? Nope, I have no employees and I am not LTD.
Do you have to prepare accounts for the stock exchange? Nope just inland revenue.
What car/van do you use for your business? Does it meet minimum HSE requirements?
Is it insured to carry your business gear? Yep it is actually insured for my business, inc transit of business equipment. This puts my premiums up slightly.
How much does your public liability insurance cost? £10 a month, its a low risk business.
Do you pay business rates to the local council? Don't need to, only a small portion of my parents dining room is used for my business, and around 5% of my bedroom.
What proportion of your costs is attributed to heating and lighting and water rates? Don't claim its not my house.
How do you meet the WEEE regulations? I recycle all used equipment and store it in my shed for a rainy day :D
I know what you're saying PCWORLD have much higher running costs, they also have a much higher amount of customers. I get 2-3 a day if I am lucky, I imagine PCWORLD repair 20 plus a day at each store.
I do however run my business by the book, I pay income tax, national insurance, have a business account, have public liability insurance, have business car insurance, have accounts going back 3 years, have all the receipts etc etc. I did also have high advertising costs but this is thankfully falling and only spend around £20 on month on advertising (need to increase this when I get more efficient and handle more work).
I am busy, but there is a reason why I drive a £350 car :). I wonder what the head of DSG drives?
|
I can imagine that with all those overheads, your £15 or £20 rate amounts to less than a net £6 per hour, i.e. minimum wage rate.
I am busy, but there is a reason why I drive a £350 car :).
Well, we all know now. We all need to have your work ethic in the rest of the British industry, if we are to compete with the Chinese and Indians. Charge 75% less for labour, and make do with £350 worth of a Fiesta as the company car.
I wonder what the head of DSG drives?
More relevant question is: What do the tech-guys at DSG drive?
Edited by jbif on 24/11/2008 at 23:42
|
Yep I don';t get it, I will admit we used Kwkfit to fit my dads Exhaust, £50 all in and they have actually done an amazingly good job, it was the cheapest quote and it seems to be a high quality unit. We only used them as we knew they could do it there and then, where as our mechanic would have probably taken 6 weeks.
For anything else though we avoid the national companies like a plague. I also hope a lot of the big double glazing firms finally pay for the years they have ripped of their customers.
|
Tata is secretly asking for £1 bn loan from UK gov
tinyurl.com/6pb3jr
Edited by movilogo on 24/11/2008 at 21:33
|
|
I am sure we could all see that coming.
|
secretly? it was all over todays times.
|
|
And yesterday's Observer.
|
SNIP -
This, and several other NON MOTORING related posts removed. Apologies if anything related to motoring was removed in the deletion process. DD
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 25/11/2008 at 10:22
|
That's not nice >> SNIP - This and several other NON MOTORING related posts removed. Apologies if anything related to motoring was removed in the deletion process. DD
That's not nice. Simply followed on from what several other people were saying about PC World versus White Van Man businesses. Nothing offensive in the harmless post and yet mine has been deleted whilst all the other PC World posts remain.
Not a nice feeling I have to say. Not nice at all. Kind of feel singled out.
|
Kind of feel singled out.
You weren't singled out. From what I recall your post had no motoring content, and what followed didn't have either - hence the removal of yours and several other posts. At some point (when I get time) other parts of this thread may get chopped and edited as well. At the end of the day this is a motoring related website and if the discussion keeps sidetracking from that theme then the whole thread may well become locked.
DD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
