Public sector workers earn more than their private sector counterparts, have longer holidays, more time off sick, are almost unsackable (500,000 TEACHERS AND LAST YEAR 10 GOT FIRED) retire earlier and on vastly bigger opensions
Where exactly is the trade off? I cant see it
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Public sector workers earn more than their private sector counterparts have longer holidays more time off sick are almost unsackable (500 000 TEACHERS AND LAST YEAR 10 GOT FIRED) retire earlier and on vastly bigger opensions
And 87% of statistics are made up on the spur of the moment to bolster an untenable argument
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Local Housing Assoc has bought 34 homes from a national builder for £2.5m
That is under £80K / home.
This builder previously was selling flats at £150K and houses were from £250K
This might be the signs that the building industry realises there are problems, What about car prices - the current 10-15% looks to be the start of bigger discounts in the new year.
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What about car prices
Excellent, someone has returned the thread to a motoring related one. Can we now keep it that way please.
DD.
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I remember the old Liverpool Airport being stockpiled with thousands of cars during a transport drivers strike ( good 15 years ago - might have been longer ).
Halewood continued to churn them out as management were reluctant to introduce lay offs.
As the pile grew ever deeper, Ford announced price increases across the stock piled range.
Seemed madness as they simply had more cars than they could ever sell.
Looking at some of the small independent second hand dealers now, they seem in the same mindset. The fewer cars they sell, the more it becomes vital that they earn the maximum from what they do manage to shift so no, I don't think they are reducing prices, the opposite I'd say.
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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7761015.stm
If the USA baiilout plan does not go ahead then I can see there will be major problems. I am worried that Volvo may be next to go.
Would it not be possible to let say Ford USA go (when did they last make a good car?) but could some other firm not buy out the European arm which would be more easier to make a profit?
As for Chysler I don't think Western Europe would mess them much at all, I mean how many Hummers have been sold lately in the UK?
Now Chysler and to some extent GM could not survive in Europe without their American arms to fall back on. But Ford are different as their cars have always been more European centric. Although with the new Fiesta being a 'world car' it would cause major problems if the company was to split.
Near me there is a 1999 V reg Ford Escort mk5, they stopped making these in 1994! so thats 5 years from being built to being registered! The way cars are going now in 2012 you will still be able to buy a brand new 1996-2008 model Ka :( complete with new sills of course.
Edited by Webmaster on 04/12/2008 at 00:31
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Near me there is a 1999 V reg Ford Escort mk5 they stopped making these in 1994!
Rattle, where did you hear this?
IIRC, the Escort was continued to be made well into 1998 to keep the Halewood plant busy until the Jag X-Type production line was set-up.
There was two special editions sold at bargain basement prices to keep punters interested, usually to the kind of people who thought the Focus "too radical"!!! LOL! :)
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Regards the 'public v. private' argument. There are still plenty of vacancies in the public sector (teachers, esp. inner city schools, social workers, PCSO, care home workers etc.). So plenty of opportunities to apply for one of these cushy jobs on a great salary ;-). I work in a university (engineering dept) and we have massive problems recruiting academic staff. Some posts remain vacant for several years despite repeated advertising. It is very hard to get appropriately qualified and experienced staff, they really have to want to do the job because the pay is never going to equal what the same candidate could earn in the private sector. Moreover there are lengthy probationary periods for permanent positions (up to 6 years) during which time staff can be easily disposed of. Around 50% of staff are on fixed term contract (including myself) which means relatively little security. If you don't produce the goods (publications, student recruitment etc) then your contract will not be renewed.
When times are good the public sector is shunned and people want to work for higher wages in private sector, as soon as there is a downturn the 'politics of envy' kick in.
Public sector pensions are not the pot of gold some seem to imagine, below are data from Gov. Actuarial Dept. which might give some perspective.
Local Government pensions are funded.
"Unfunded":
Teachers average pension £8,700 pensioners 0.5m
Armed Forces average pension £7,600 pensioners 0.35m
Police average pension £11,600 pensioners 0.1m
Civil Service average pension £5,400 pensioners 0.58m
NHS average pension £6,000 pensioners 0.62m
Deferred pensions (average)
teachers £2,300 number 0.3m
armed forces £2,000 number 0.6m
police £4,300 number 0.1m
civil servants £2,800 number 0.3m
NHS £1,600 number 0.8m
contributing members
teachers 0.71m pay 6%
armed forces non contributory
police 0.14m pay 11%
civil service 0.64m varies
NHS 1.53m between 5% ~ 8.5% dependant on salary
Fire Service has a pay as you go pension. They contribute 11% of salary.
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The police pension changed a good year ago. New recruits pay 9.5 and have to complete 35 years survice for a half pension as opposed to the old 11 % and 30 years for a 2 thirds pension. A massive change and not dissimilar to what many company schemes might pay. Oh and they can stay at work now past 55 so most will be dead before they draw a pension.
The police are no different to any other humans there are good, bad, excellent and plain horrilbe officers but at heart most try their best so stop moaning and do it yourself if you could do better.
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Been away from mainstream news for the last couple of weeks only getting the odd BBC bulletin and website stuff - can't believe what I've missed !
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>Would it not be possible to let say Ford USA go (when did they last make a good car?) but >could some other firm not buy out the European arm which would be more easier to make >a profit?
No
No car company based in Europe will be making a profit for the last Q 0f 2008 or most of 2009. No one will therefore invest money in buying Ford of Europe, or GM of Europe, Ford have no hope of selling volvo at the moment.
In times like this the first thing people stop buying is new cars.
Edited by Webmaster on 04/12/2008 at 00:31
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I've just had a customer go bust owing me £1,400.
The company was taken over a short while ago (maybe 18 months) and the new owners must have basically cleaned it out in the meantime! However, this was a profitable set-up with a full order book and the bank basically pulled the plug. And I wonder why I despise bankers. I think the recent Barclays episode says it all.
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However this was a profitable set-up with a full order book and the bank basically pulled the plug.
Err No. No bank would just pull the plug on a profitable set up with a full order book. They must have been in the mire to need the bank financing.
You cant blame the bank you blame the current management.
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Ford have no hope of selling volvo at the moment.
Still signs of Renault and BMW sniffing around for a bargain buy. Can't quite see what BMW would want with Volvo mind.
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New car sales in Germany down 20%
US 30%
UK 23%
Anyone going to buy a car company - from the owners - is nuts.
Wait for administration.. It's cheaper and easier to do the essntial downsizing (read cutting staff).
And of course, what the world is saying is : tooooooooooo many car makers, too many factories , too many models.
(Ford GM and Chrysler wer being told that since 2004. They ignored it. How to be rich and stupid: run a car company.. Except Porsche who made record profits on their VW holdings - greater than turnover).
Anyone buying Volvo has no sense unless the Swedish Government bail them out.
Edited by madf on 03/12/2008 at 11:01
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Doubt if BMW are doing more than sniffing:
"BMW is laying off 8,000 workers worldwide. BMW's chairman Norbert Reithofer said his company was facing the "biggest crisis in its history". Traders said it was disturbing that BMW had to tap the bond markets for ?750m last week at a punitive yield of 540 basis points above benchmark lending rates. It is a sign that the firm is struggling to raise money from banks, and may have had to rescue suppliers frozen out of the credit markets entirely" DT last week
Given that a large percentage of their sales are lease-based, the credit shortage has a big affect...
...and as for Renault
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Ford USA did do a great car recently - the GT40 ! Not exactly mainstream but a brilliant motor none the less !
Hands u who wouldn't have one !
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Ford USA did do a great car recently - the GT40 !
But they shot themselves in the foot when they let a certain Mr J. Clarkson buy the Friday afternoon one that was plagued with trouble.
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SQ!But they shot themselves in the foot when they let a certain Mr J. Clarkson buy the Friday afternoon one that was plagued with trouble.
>
> There wasn't anything wrong with the car itself. Mr Clarkson was having problems with the alarm/immobiliser fitted by the importers AFAIA
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 06/12/2008 at 23:15
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SQ again! - sigh, doesn't anyone read HJ's sticky message at the top of the page?
There wasn't anything wrong with the car itself. Mr Clarkson was having problems with the alarm/immobiliser fitted by the importers AFAIA
and the fact that the petrol tank would not allow him to do 150 miles before running out,,,
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 06/12/2008 at 23:16
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Would it not be possible to let say Ford USA go (when did they last make a good car?) but could some other firm not buy out the European arm which would be more easier to make a profit?
Erm, the Mustang?
General Motors make the Hummer, not Chrysler. I wish Chrysler were doing better myself, when Lee Iacocca took over they got funding from the US government. Lee Iacocca told the workers "Boys, I've got 300,000 jobs at $25 an hour. I've got none at $30. The UAW workers took a pay cut. When Iacocca was asked what he was going to do he replied " Pay myself a dollar a year"
Edited by Webmaster on 04/12/2008 at 00:32
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I doubt if any Western car maker is breaking even and with the volume fall quoted I would expect significant losses.
Step 1 Stop production
Step 2 Sell inventory to improve cash
Step 3: Make staff redundant
Step 4 close factories
We are between step 2 and 3.
Many of the bigger part suppliers have dodgy finances and excessive debt and may go bust.
So the car makers are going to be in a horrible bind: they will HAVE to support the supplier chain.. but they have not enough cash.. and the banks will not and cannot lend.
(After Woolies went bust, the former Virgin Media ran out of CDs as Woolies were their sole supplier. Think of that times 500 suppliers)
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An economist on R4 stated that we may be forced to join the euro or face hyper inflation and national bankruptcy
His arguements were pretty compelling sterling only has to drop a few percentage points more for foreign investors to stop buying gilts at which time the Bank of England will have to start printing money to buy them instead
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I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet - US car bosses have agreed to work for $1 a year. The Heads of Ford and GM have agreed it as part of a range of cost-cutting moves and due to having received government money. They're selling the company jets too:
snip
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 04/12/2008 at 12:31
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Ah, my link was to the Times story, here's the Telegraph link:
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport...l
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And the unions are joining in too!
blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/12/uaw_offers_mor...l
UAW offers more concessions as Big 3 to face Congress
December 03, 2008 18:20PM
"The United Auto Workers union is willing to give up a 24-year-old perk that paid some people for not working if that's what it takes to get bailout loans for Detroit's Big Three automakers. "
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The ripples of the current down turn obviously spread everywhere.
We sometimes get to see some corners where the effect is awful.
From todays DT
tinyurl.com/648ybp for the full report
Re shipping news
.......As a result there has been a collapse in the Baltic Dry Index, which tracks the cost of chartering ships to shift raw materials such as iron ore, coal and grains.
Since June the index has fallen by more than 90 per cent.
A firm wanting to charter the largest vessel bigger than 80,000 tonnes, known as a Capesize, would have paid $234,000 (£159,433) a day on June 5. The latest quoted rate is $8,300 (£5,677), reflecting how the shortage of customers has driven the price down.
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Anyone want to join a consortium to buy an F1 racing team?
Honda's is up for sale.
Running costs £500million a year so we need 500 members with £1 million spare each.
Or lets buy a Premier League football Club: lots for sale.
Note: all ways to lose loadsofmoney very quickly.
All about to unravel in the next two years.
Anything else stupidly expensive with no economic logic?
the Olympics.
No doubt others can think of more.
Anything wasting less than £1 billion a year is not worthy of consideration :-)
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Heard today that The Pier shops are in trouble, and Max Spielman/Klik photographic shops have called in the administrators.
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Heard today that The Pier shops are in trouble and Max Spielman/Klik photographic shops have called in the administrators.
The Pier Shops are funded by Iceland Bank ......................
So that appears to answer some of the questions on why they are struggling
Klic called administrators on Wed - Been going Donkeys - originally Gratispool (if you are old enough to remember)
At Uni (45 yrs ago) many of the girls on my course spent their summer hols working there packing photos /film into envelopes
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An economist on R4 stated that we may be forced to join the euro
Thank goodness. It will happen sooner or later so let's get it over with and go in now!
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Just been looking for a used car in the £4k-£7k range at one of those large supersites (but private owned not a chain) with many hundreds of cars on offer. As I walked round starting at the front realised I was about 20 cars behind the owner who was rather grimly down pricing every car in turn by 25%-40%. Looked to me as if he was pretty well writing off the profit margins just to get some cashflow.
David
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Just been looking for a used car in the £4k-£7k range at one of those large supersites (but private owned not a chain) with many hundreds of cars on offer. As I walked round starting at the front realised I was about 20 cars behind the owner who was rather grimly down pricing every car in turn by 25%-40%.
Give it time and you will be seeing main dealers doing the same.
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Thank goodness. It will happen sooner or later so let's get it over with and go in now!
I couldn't agree more.
The 1:1 exchange rate that Sterling is sliding ever closer towards would simplify matters considerably, too.
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Figures just released prior to opening of US stock markets:
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/3566829/US-j...l
"The US economy lost more than half a million jobs in November - the most in one month since December 1974 - as the unemployment rate soared to its highest level in 15 years."
Bearing that in mind, and noting that the £ is taking a hammering against the $, what does that foretell about our prospects for next year.
How can anyone reconcile the massive downturn being experienced by industry against Darling Brown's estimates of a 1% recession followed by growth from Autumn next year?
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"How can anyone reconcile the massive downturn being experienced by industry against Darling Brown's estimates of a 1% recession followed by growth from Autumn next year?"
Easy. Switch off your brain and believe the pap you are told..
Anyone who read the budget report would realise it had been hastily changed . It was therefore a "political" forecast made in hope of an early 2009 election.
As the recession is certainly not going to be over by the last date posible for an election (c June 2010).
Or maybe Darling HOPED it would be over by 2010.
My simple rule of thumb for economists and politicians: Did they forecast a recession?
If the answer is no, then any forecast they make about when a recession ends is as reliable as their forecast of when it would start!
Edited by madf on 05/12/2008 at 15:18
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According to t'other paper today Vauxhall have been in secret talks with the government to try and secure a rescue package should it sink under the weight of GM's debt. It is said that the government are unlikely to give anymore than very short term aid to the carmaker, presumably not wanting to add another BL to the banks it is already operating.
The following quote is an assessment of the impact of bankruptcy would have on employment -
"Vauxhall employs around 5,000 workers in Britain, but estimates that the collapse of the company would affect 50,000 workers employed by part suppliers, dealerships and local businesses that cater for the factories".
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According to t'other paper today Vauxhall have been in secret talks with the government to try and secure a rescue package should it sink under the weight of GM's debt.
This is stupid. Vauxhall is GM. Its not an independent car maker that needs the money to survive, Vauxhall is a GM factory nothing more. If GM folds vauxhall folds. Nothing can save it.
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Isn't Vauxhall more like a factory of Adam Opel in Germany?
Surely Opel would need to survive for Vauxhall to survive?
What about Holden in Australia? How independent are they?
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Isn't Vauxhall more like a factory of Adam Opel in Germany? Surely Opel would need to survive for Vauxhall to survive? What about Holden in Australia? How independent are they?
they are all GM. If the parent folds they all go. None of them can survive alone
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Vauxhall will have the first factories to close in a European rationalisation Of GM European production - in my view.
And with sales figures as bad as they are and deteriorating, if GM goes bust OR NOT, I would suggest Vauxhall will not survive.
Commercially it's brand is UK only.
Edited by madf on 06/12/2008 at 16:43
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But apart from the badge and the side the steering wheel is on, is there any difference between an Opel and a Vauxhall? With the pound sterling going south, it'll be cheaper to build cars here than in Germany.
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>>is there any difference between an Opel and a Vauxhall?
None whatsoever.
At the Vauxhall garage where I worked, the odd car was delivered with Opel badges; during the PDI, the badges would be swapped over.
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Opel aka Vauxhall
Since I bought my Vauxhall I've been dropping in on a model specific forum to learn a bit more about it.
Apparently, it is quite fashionable (among some anyway) to swop the VX badges/grilles for Opel ones. Not sure why but it is alleged to be "cool". The other thing which is even cooler it would seem is to remove the badges altogether.........I don't have the heart to drop in a post pointing out that anyone who is even vaguely knowledgeable would still know it was a Vauxhall................
;-)
Think I'll just continue to plod along in my lukewarm sort of way.........
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I did that to my Vectra too, not because I seriously believed people might think it wasn't a Vauxhall but because the car looked smarter without those ugly great Griffins on it.
SWMBO laughed at me, naturally! :)
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"But apart from the badge and the side the steering wheel is on, is there any difference between an Opel and a Vauxhall? "
They are branded Opel and RHD in Ireland, so even less likely that the Vauxhall brand will survive (though I don't see much advantage in rebranding.
They should have brought in the Opel badge on the flagship models such as VX220 and that fast Holden thing, maybe Signum, that's the best way to merge it in.
Edited by Hamsafar on 06/12/2008 at 20:01
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Thought we'd upset you ? Or have you been away on a secret mission knowledge of which would lead to assasination ?
;-)
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>>Opel aka Vauxhall
I struggle to see why we still have Vauxhall at all. I can imagine that clever marketing would enable Opels to be marketed as a premium German brand in the UK, more akin to VW than to Ford.
Yes, as per AE's view, if GM disappear, there's no real future for Vauxhall's plants in the UK. I could imagine Germany rescuing Opel, as the engineering centre at Russelheim would be able to continue new model development. To begin developing entire cars at Luton again is stretching credibility just a bit too far.
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Opel sounds more classy, Vauxhall sounds cheap and nasty.
I would buy an Opel, I would not buy a Vauxhall. Silly I know but there you go - probably why firms spend millions on brand marketing.
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I quite like my Griffins. Or are they Wyverns?
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I always had them as Wyverns with a Bristol accent for some reason ! My dad had a Vauxhall Wyvern.
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Following the introduction of the Nova and the Corsa, I realised that vauxhall was clearly after the Chav market, judging by the number I see with those stupid smoked rear lights and stick on air vents.
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Novas were really good little cars.
Forget the souped up ones, the awful GTE, and the ones wrecked by chavs, but a basic 1200 Nova was cheap, extremely reliable*, had very light controls, and excellent visibility.
* especially after about 1989 when Vauxhall stopped making the cams for their OHC engines out of cheese
When I worked in a Vauxhall garage, Novas weren't a happy sight on a job card, because you were fairly sure to just be giving the car a basic service with few extra jobs which were good for earning bonus. mk II Cavaliers, on the other hand :-)
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I still remember a local Vauxhall and Opel dealer as a younger person (okay a lot younger).
I hope if necessary the EU can save Vauxhall/Opel... But if we give [b|m]illions to them how do we know it does not go to GM? And likewise they do not want to rescue the european brands for similar reasons.
But Ford and GM in Europe might be businesses that work...
These is worrying times... says he for numerous reasons had to choose a Mazda6 in 2007...
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Yes, I remember a time (in the late 1970s?) when GM were selling both Vauxhalls and Opels in the UK. To me (at the time) Opel always sounded more glamorous than Vauxhall (which is after all a dreary part of inner London).
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But that was madness then. I still remember where the local GM dealer was.... opposite the Vx one I think!
Some problems like Woolwoorth and American car companies has come about due to the management... we have a problem with banks too.
We'll all be alright ;-)
Edit: Forgot my point.... if we give money to Vx/Opel do we know it does not go to GM? Likewise if GM get governement money from the US government can that go to Vx/Opel?
Edited by rtj70 on 07/12/2008 at 00:17
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Since I bought my Vauxhall I've been dropping in on a model specific forum to learn a bit more about it. Apparently it is quite fashionable (among some anyway) to swop the VX badges/grilles for Opel ones. Not sure why but it is alleged to be "cool". The other thing which is even cooler it would seem is to remove the badges altogether.........I don't have the heart to drop in a post pointing out that anyone who is even vaguely knowledgeable would still know it was a Vauxhall................
I still can't get my head around that either!
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Oh I suppose its harmless enough mlc. More bemusing than anything. Maybe its an age thing in my case........
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Not sure the insurance would like that idea..... surely an Opel as an import would command a premium increase?
These people may find their uninsured, as that is a modification...
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Not sure the insurance would like that idea.....
>>
What would the BIB say ?
" Tax disk says VX but badges say Opel - Sir " :-)
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To link back ( sort of ) to the main thrust of the thread, ie how the current economic climate affects the car industry, I would have thought changing the identity of a car by re-branding it might devalue it. Certainly I would be a bit circumspect about buying a car where the documents did not match the badges. I might at least conclude that it had been owned by someone who may have driven it a little too enthusiastically. Having said that it may well alternatively indicate that it could have had more attention lavished on it than a car owned by someone who saw it as more of a commodity.
Anyway, I think I've bored myself on the subject now so I'll leave it there.
;-)
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The Renault dealers site in the middle of Kingston is empty.
The response from the web site is "The website declined to show this webpage"
I have never seen this response before. I assume they have closed down but "A thanks to all our old customers " and maybe a redirect ,would have been nice.
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I assume they have closed down but "Athanks to all our old customers " and maybe a redirect would have been nice.
Websites cost money, and if they have gone bust they cannot afford to maintain it.
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thanks to all our old customers " and maybe a redirect would have been nice.
that needs to be paid for and hosted somewhere, and when you have gone bust who is gonna pay for it......
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More UK automotive jobs at risk:
www.newstin.co.uk/tag/uk/91950415
"Wagon Automotive on the brink in Britain after banks refuse to inject more cash ...
The company?s banks are led by Royal Bank of Scotland, which is now majority-owned by the government......
Wagon, which has an annual turnover of £860m, has plants in Walsall and Coventry and a head office in Birmingham. At Walsall, it makes panels and door parts for Honda, Ford, General Motors, Land Rover and Nissan.
At Coventry, Wagon makes shock absorbers for non-automotive clients, including the liftmakers Otis and Schindler. The remaining 4,000 staff work at 20 plants on the Continent, where its biggest clients are Renault, Peugeot and Citroën. ... "
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Fair comments. I wrongly assumed they had other sites.
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I read in the "other" paper yesterday that Ford UK workers have been offered 5.5% rise as part of their three year deal. The figure was based on RPI in July IIRC. Would be backdated to November, and the paper made the point that the unions could reject it.
Doesn't strike me as a very sensible thing to be happening in the company right now...
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