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I live slightly above the snow line in my current house and drive a mini cooper. This winter there were several occasions (few inches of snow) when i couldnt even get it off the driveway. And one instance when going down hill in slush i lost control and skidded dangerously just avoiding a crash. I thought 4x4 will better handle these conditons....am i niave?
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No not at all. Indeed a 4x4 will get better traction to get started. What I found though with the Defender was that due to its weight it was more of a liability once on the move in slippery conditions due to its inertia. Strangely enough, the car which handled the weather best was the Panda. Lightweight with skinny tyres and highish clearance.
Honestly wasn't trying to put you off a 4x4 if that's what you fancy, just remembering that it doesn't really make a lot of difference when the going gets really tough.
In other words, I guess any of your shortlist would be fine up to the point of their limitations.
So so jealous of your location !! Some of the best driving roads in Britain on your doorstep. Buy a Panda and an Elise......!!!
Without being too specific on here, which part of the Borders are you going to ?
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And one instance when going down hill in slush i lost control and skidded dangerously just avoiding a crash. I thought 4x4 will better handle these conditons....am i niave?
Yes. 4wd will help with getting going and even with handling, but will do you no good at all when it comes to stopping.
If you want 4x4 then I would say look at things like the legacy. Lots of people seem to think that having a 4x4 is like having some magic switch that will glue them to the road and prevent any loss of traction.
It isnt like that.
the 4x4 suv type of vehicle has the ground clearance you need for off road stuff and may allow you to move in very bad conditions, but imo if the conditions are that bad then you should keep off the road.
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And one instance when going down hill in slush i lost control and skidded dangerously just avoiding a crash. I thought 4x4 will better handle these conditons....am i niave?
Obviously you hope to avoid losing control in the first place, but, once lost, the laws of physics kick in and a 4x4 is worse than a smaller car.
If you've driven in snow before then maybe you're aware of this, but proper winter tyres do make an enormous difference.
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Perhaps, taking into account Humpy's comments, think in terms of a front wheel drive with winter tyres, unless you just want a small 4x4, in which case winter tyres on that would be a big benefit for an inch or two of snow on unsalted/ploughed roads.
When I lived in the Pennines, about 900' asl with fairly regular winter snow, the best car we had in snow was a Saab 96 with or without winter tyres (but especially with). Much better than the Audi 100 we had later.
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Hi Ash, I had a Xantia for 5 years and it wasn't a bad choice, but for climbing snowy hills it couldn't approach any 4x4, no 2WD will. The raised suspension was great for lifting the bow over low snow drifts, but you couldn't drive it for any distance in the half-raised position, so I was told.
And contrary to Humph's advice, if the hill is steep enough, a ballasted RWD will outclimb an unballasted FWD, apart from elementary physics (CoG), where do you put the ballast in a FWD? Most RWD drivers here carry a couple of sacks of coarse sand in the boot all winter. It can come in handy for a bit of emergency gritting too.
I've lived in Norway for many years and consider myself well qualified on this particular question. My nephew still drives his father's Mk.1 CR-V off-road regularly here in the winter, as do I my Mk.3, despite the negative soft-roader tag. No Freelander maybe, but I've not been stuck yet, on or off road.
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That's encouraging Bill - I have a CR-V II which has yet to even look like getting stuck in the wet/muddy fields that I sometimes frequent, but I tend to keep quiet about that to avoid the derision of 'proper' 4x4 owners.
To be fair, I've heard Land Rovers are very good when they're not being repaired ;-)
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Lauderdale.
Of course they are doing a 4x4 panda now i believe! Maybe that is the answer!
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>>Of course they are doing a 4x4 panda now
And a lot less than £16k.
www.fiatsupasaver.com/ItemDetail.aspx?mID=26
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Lauderdale - beautiful. Friends of ours spent three happy years in a rented cottage on the Spottiswood estate. They were quite a distance from a public road, perhaps a couple of miles. They kept an ancient but serviceable Landy at the house and used it to get down to the road. There was a pub at the entrance to the estate and the landlord used to let them keep their road cars in his car park. On the occasions we stayed with them we would roll out of the pub and board the Land Rover to bounce and weave our way back to their house, often just taking the straight(ish) lines rather than the track provided. Not very PC but legal as it was on private land. They were musicians and I have fond memories of impromptu summers evening jams in the field behind their cottage.
For what it's worth their road cars were a Spitfire and a Peugeot 205 GTi.
Really hope you enjoy your new house and whatever car choice you ultimately make. You lucky lucky people.
;-)
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I might have meant Spotswood estate. Can't remember now but I'm sure a local would.
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Be careful, mud and wet grass are not the same as snow, mainly because directional stability is virtually nil compared to snow.
Another point is snow downhill, the uphill advantage of a 4x4 is pretty much wiped out downhill, especially with smooth and/or fat tyres, although ABS (or just vigorous pumping) helps.
If traction in snow is the priority, use the thinnest 'nobbliest' tyres you can.
BB
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Funnily enough the 2 most capable 2WD cars i've had in severe snow were Austin 2200 land crab, good because the engine/box was so unbelievably heavy that reinforced (van) tyres were specced, and a RWD Volvo 245 estate with about half a dozen or more stranded people in the boot to weigh the rear down.;)
Any half reliable 4 x 4 (thats quite a different subject) will be capable of handling constant severe weather, the most important fitment is as previously mentioned...winter tyres, i don't think many people realise just how good these tyres are at dealing with the cold weather, not just snow, they grip very well in the wet and ice too (well ice is going to be dangerous whatever you have), i don't mean M&S tyres alone, i'm talking about tyres with the snowflake symbol embossed.
I run Vredestein winter tyres and would recommend, but i believe Nokian make a winter tyre that can be used all year round, i personally would only want winter tyres made by European established companies experienced in cold running tyres.
If twer me in this enviable position of living far from the madding crowd, and yes i'm jealous, i would be looking for the most reliable car possible and as economical or not that i could comfortably afford, dealers could be many miles away, so i would be looking at vehicles from Japanese makers.
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Like an X trail ?
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Like an X trail ?
Not really my cup of tea and i have no knowledge of the product at all except tales of early turbo failure, but they do seem to be very popular, hopefully some current owners could comment further for you.
(chap i know of has tried to trade his low mileage 07 plate back in to Nissan, paid 24K for it new and offered 10.5K trade in...gulp)
I was more thinking of the well liked Honda CRV or possibly Toyo Rav4, both likely to give long term reliability.
If badges mean nothing, the new Hyundai santa fey is a very nice capable vehicle and 5 year unlimited mileage warranty to boot, some good used deals there too.
If you go up to the next stage of more robust 4 x 4's the fuel consumption takes a big nose dive, our hilux does around 30mpg, thats quite good consumption for an automatic 3 litre 2 ton brick.;) same engine as in the Lancruiser 5/colorado to give you a comparison. Remember though the larger 4 x 4's may well go into £400+ road tax so check before, pick ups still £180..;)
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Sister lives in The Borders and is very pleased with her X-trail Sport - much prefers to the dual fuel Range Rover it replaced. Has had no problems getting up hills, but did slide past her turn off on one occasion when a slight thaw had re-frozen into sheet ice.
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Good tip about the ballast by the way. For a brief and very badly timed period in the very bad winter of 78/79, I had a Mk II Escort 1100. It would barely get off the mark on the flat with any snow on the ground. Two big bags of river sand from the builders' merchant in the boot transformed it, though the weight did nothing for the already asthmatic performance.
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We live in the Highlands at 1,000 feet in a secluded glen on a single track road which is a dead end. We get lots of snow and ice in the winter. I had a Defender when we first moved here which was great apart from not being able to get up our long, steep drive when it was icy. I have had two Freelanders and they were both better tackling the drive due to their traction control.
Last year I got a new Honda CR-V and that is every bit as good as the Freelanders were. I also average 43mpg.
Even the postie has to have four wheel drive round here.
When the snow drifts it can get over 4 feet deep so we just wait until the snow plough can get down to us.
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You are right about a ballasted RWD Bill. Years ago had no problems getting around Scotland in winter in Cortinas and the like using that technique. The only way you could get sufficient weight over the back wheels in winter in the Westie was to offer a lift to the fat poacher who frequented our local pub. A rare occasion though because I had to remove the seat squab to fit him in and he used to complain about it being uncomfortable.......
;-)
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 27/09/2008 at 18:20
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Hmm am more confused than ever now. Drive is uphill on B road (not too steep) across the hills and then down hill (steep and quite twisty) into the village so all on tarmac, unploughed and probably ungritted as they do the A roads first. Problem is if i have dropped kids off at school come home then it starts to snow heavily in the afternoon (as happened this year) I cant just say 'oh well the conditions are too bad to drive' I have to go back to get them!
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with 16 K you could get a Suzuki Jimny or Fiat Panda 4x4 AND a normal car
that would be my approach
Jimny and Panda are much better in real world off road conditions than your nominations
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You may need chains then Ash, conditions can sometimes be that bad, especially if you have a twisty steep unploughed descent to navigate. Had to use them on my Xantia (and others) now'n then. A real hassle, but there you are, real winter weather is not to be trifled with.
Incidentally, don't consider using any (primarily) winter tyre all year round, the compound won't stand summer temperatures and corner speeds and then still perform next winter.
BB
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conditions are too bad to drive' I have to go back to getthem!
In areas like that there won't be the volume of traffic to cause the endless stuck queues of numbskulls that haven't the foggiest idea of how to drive in adverse weather, and those that are about will probably be very experienced.
Its amazing how the most basic even 2WD car can (with a bit of ballasting as described above) tackle some very poor conditions.
The big thing about snow driving is to keep the momentum going, its when people jam up behind each other that it all goes to pot.
Hill in front?, don't be close behind, 2 reasons, if they fail to make it they can then back down for another go, secondly you want a clear run at the hill and don't want to have to come off the power half way up.
Got a possible solution for you, research the area you are going to live in (lucky so and so mumble mumble) for a country supplier of LPG, then if there is a farm/local (not normal garage, too dear) supplier buy a Subaru forester/legacy used with LPG already fitted.
Probably the most reliable and capable car you could buy, and lpg will half the fuel costs.
If a sub forester gets stuck, every one else will be too.
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Ahh finally someone suggested the obvious car - Forester. And I would put snow tyres on and you should be OK.
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Not much to add to this really, keep cool and avoid spinning at all costs, don't try accelerating uphill more than necessary, balance the throttle with available grip, an autobox obviously makes for smoother downchanges if gradient increases on the way up. A Forester is not necessarily the benchmark either, technique is generally the difference between success and failure, it's just that a 4x4 does make life easier.
BB
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Nicked this idea from Tron's Dumfries and Galloway thread...
A JCB Fastrack.
Probably near £160K than £16k and the passenger accommodation is poor, but I doubt you'd get stuck.
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You say that and I know your tongue is firmly embedded etc. but in that part of the world when the weather turns really bad I have seen even bulldozers seriously struggle. 4x4, RWD, FWD, sandbags, winter tyres, whatever. If there's a "muckle snaw" you are staying put until it decides to let you move again.
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Alright then, a Bell Jet Ranger, probably nearer £1.6m than....:)
Actually, Humph, fully accept what you say, there are some conditions where the only option is to stay put, no matter what expensive motorised toy you might have access to.
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I would keep it light like the Panda 4WD, the Subaru Justy 4WD would be ideal but they stopped making em.
I lived on the moor for 6.5 years and the road leading to the village was a 1 in whatever is *STEEP* ... once the snow is compacted and freezes overnight - THEN the fun starts !!! I bought a Discovery + snow chains, only to watch an old 205 GTi whizz up the hill where few opthers could make it (inc. me)
Keep it light, light, light, the lighter the better.
Dog.
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I think Bill B puts his finger on it. Technique is far more important than which wheels the engine connects too.
Huntsman Roddy blow your horn, come make the hills reply.
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Back in the mid 80s I had to be on early shift at 06.00. It had snowed heavily overnight. We had an XR2 and a Hillman Avenge estate.
The driveway had a slight backward gradient. The XR2 was having none of it. I even lost my shovel in temper somewhere in the snow!
Eventually tried the Avenger. Straight out. Continued to use it throughout the bad weather.
The moral to the story? Skinny tyres. Fat tyres just cause a build of snow to the front rather than cutting through to find grip.
Overall I think frontwheel drive has the edge due to the weight over the drive wheels. Proper winter tyres are the way forward. Go to a ski resort and all the cars are getting about unless its really bad. They are compulsory in some countries such as Germany.
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Personally I would go for a scooby forester or legacy/outback.
Interestingly whilst watching the wonderful Mrs Lumley searching for the Northern Lights in Norway I could not help observe her driving a Toyota Avensis in all that snow.
I recalled a number of these type of programmes I have watched and have always seen people driving Toyotas up there in the snow.
That said it would still be the scooby if I were you.
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Whenever this question comes up, I always recommend the same thing. A small, light hatchback such as a Golf fitted with steel wheels and non-low profile winter tyres. Plus some snow chains in the boot, though you probably won't need them. I've been to the alps many times during the winter and never felt the need for 4 wheel drive. The traction you get on snow or ice covered surfaces with good winter tyres is astonishing if you've never experienced it before.
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I'm with Fullchat on this one.
By all means buy a 4x4 off-road or "normal" variety but don't expect it to help too much in snow.
I own a Legacy but don't think of it being especially handy on snow.
If I was living somewhere with a real risk of long periods of snow then I'd buy a pair of snow chains or have a spare pair of cheapo drive wheels with snow tyres on and swap them during the deepest winter months.
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Balancing act here between what you actually want, what will actually do the job and how much you can get away with in the eyes of another 'alf.
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Not that I'm judging anything or even feel slightly entitled to an opinion but it does amuse me quietly that now that we live in one of the flatest and mildest parts of Britain that every other car which is not a 3 series or an A4 is an SUV.....
As I mentioned above, when we did live in an area where the winter weather could maybe persuade you that such a car was a good idea, few people bothered.
There are though, also a disproportionate number of conservatories, big hairdos and fake tans round here too......
;-)
Edit - Oh yeah and Croc wearers too.....
Edited by Humph Backbridge on 28/09/2008 at 18:10
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Crocs any good in the snow then ?
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Grind off the tread and you can ski in anything if you want to........
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Haven't read all the posts in this, but how about
Hyundai Santa Fe - £16K will get you an almost new one, with most of the 5 year warranty left. It doesn't score too bad off road, and is relatively comfortable inside from what I've read...
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Not that we have had any real snow to talk about since I've had 4x4s, but looking at the width of my Sorento road tyres I think any real snow would be a problem, gearboxes and diffs scrabbling to provide traction against a wall of snow.
Thinner winter tyres I think would transform the vehicle BUT you believe a 4X4 will cope and when it happens its too late! 4 tyres for a couple of days a year - huge outlay.
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! 4 tyres for a couple of daysa year - huge outlay.
The hilux is selectable 4WD and obviously spends 99% of its time in RWD only, but being a pick up is very light on the rear end and was quite a handful on cold wet roads.
Bought a spare set of alloys off flea bay, a set of Vredestein proper winter tyres and they spent from November through to March on the vehicle and will do so again this year and subsequently, transforms the vehicle's handling on cold wet roads amazingly.
Different for us as to me there's no cost really, the summer tyres arn't being used during the winter months and vice versa and the vehicle has much safer and predictable road handling, so a win win situation at only the cost of £160 for a good set of toyo alloys.
These winter tyres are something else, about 3" of snow on our approx 1 in 4 driveway, and the truck just pulled away in RWD only, quite astonishing and when you stop the treads are clean, sort of self cleaning.
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I had to do a couple of off-road driving courses for work a few years back now. One piece of advice the instructor gave us was that if it's so slippery (snow/ice) that you need four wheel drive to get moving then it's too slippery for you to be able to stop - four wheel drive or not.
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Whatever you do, don't get an Imprezza Turbo.
I can't believe there's a worse car in the world when it comes to driving in snow.
Try and pull away a little quickly, the turbo kicks in, the ESP takes over and you set off, which would be great except that the ESP will send you in some random direction that the driver has no control over.
Thus crawlign along trying to keep the engine speed low enough so that the turbo doesn't kick in is the only way to drive. This sounds simple and is almost achievable on the flat, however once you start going uphill then you'll need a little throttle to make it up the hill and the moment you find a patch that's slightly more slippery than previous and a wheel will spin, the revs will rise just enough for the turbo to kick in, all the wheels will spin, the ESP will take over and once again you've heading in a random direction.
Now I quite like driving a car sideways, its great fun, used to be able to keep the tail out on a Caterham for half a mile without batting an eyelid. However there the driver has the control, not some random routine in the ESP software.
Can you tell that I didn't enjoy driving an Imprezza in the snow?
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Spikeyhead
What type and size of tyres are you on, and what pressures do you run at?
That doesn't sound at all like my sons RA classic, but then apart from the electronic variable 4WD distribution (no i haven't a clue what the correct term would be) it has no other electronics at all, no ABS not even leccy windows or central locking, but it does competently frighten the life out of me..;)
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GB, good point you make re swapping rims and tyres for the whole winter period!
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The off-road capabilities of the Freelander 2 (I've only been in the top-spec one) are quite simply the most impressive I've ever seen. Went up a wet and slippery stony track with big potholes and sections of 30 degree climbs at 30 mph plus with no scrabbling, scraping or leaving the ground at crests.
Toyota Hilux can do it quickly, but not comfortably or as in control.
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I'm no expert but I think snow is a different animal to mud,gunge and slopes??
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I've driven in snow when I had the Terracan - without it and its 4wd we'd have had nil chance of getting home that day. We had about 6 inches in 2 hours (or something like that - a ruddy great boatload of the stuff)
So, perhaps the Terracan should be on the list - they are very cheap these days, partly because of the less than modern design, and the drab interior. But they do have a 5 year warranty (or at least the balance) and you should see a fair bit of change from your £16K budget for an 18month old one.
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>if it's so slippery (snow/ice) that you need four wheel drive to get moving then it's too slippery for you to be able to stop - four wheel drive or not. <
Logic - and there's no arguing with it ... also, to wear winter boots all through winter would add to one's fuel bill due to increased rolling resistance.
Dog.
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Re "winter" tyres - there's an owner on one of the Merc forums who uses winter tyres year round. He gets 40K from a set, which is exceptional for any tyre on a Merc.
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For 16k I would spend 14k on a Mondeo sized diesel estate for the 50 weeks of the year when conditions are benign and the rest on an old Suzuki Jimny with a set of winter tyres for the bad days.
(Alternately spend the leftover cash on a holiday for those weeks !)
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I've twice taken a car to the Alps in winter. One a Imprezza (non silly version) with winter tyres; the other a Vectra with ordinary road tyres.
The former went everywhere without trouble (and it's even more fun in the summer on those roads). The latter needed chains and was still a struggle.
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Sounds like you have a genuine reason for needing a 4x4.
However, 4x4s - even Land Rover Defenders - are not immune from getting stuck if the conditions are bad enough. Also it's worth remembering that all cars have 4-wheel brakes, so when it comes to stopping a 4x4 has no advantage except perhaps grippier tyres, if fitted.
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yea id buy a panda 4x4 or jimny as a second car
and use them in the worst weather
if you must have a bigger car for the rest of the year get an astra estate or something boring and cheap like that
you will find panda 4x4 or jimny are both better than any of the bigger 4x4s you are thinking of for these circumstances - i know ive driven a few
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Why not ask a new neighbour/people at the school what they have/do
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I think the most important thing you should buy is a Clearview log burner and few tons of logs -- if it snows you won't want to move from heat.
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I won't go anywhere I don't have to in the snow now and that includes work !
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Fair point but where the OP is going to live that might mean being fairly movement restricted from late November through to late March. In that neck of the woods at altitude it can snow (and I mean proper snow) at the drop of a hat. The sort of stuff that blocks southern roads, leads to traffic chaos and incurs tabloid hyperbole is seen as a "light dusting" in some parts of Scotland. Drifts which can reach half way up the sides of houses are not that uncommon.
Still doesn't necessarily require over engineered transport solutions though, more a case of knowing the right techniques for driving any vehicle.. My father taught me to drive on snow and ice by the "wineglass" method. What it involves is imagining a full glass of wine balanced precariously on your bonnet. Under no circumstances must you spill any wine. Now drive how you like. It does work........
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Sorry used to soft southern snow !
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I've owned two Imprezza Turbos, both I think running 225/5-17s.
the second one had the ESP disabled and was a far nicer thing to drive, less ultimate grip but it would slide predictably, rather than being happy turning right at 80mph on a wet roundabout but at 80.01mph it would chose the exit rather than the driver.
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