Question on Police driving [Read Only] - Nsar
I know there are few uniform on here so question to them.

Driving down a very busy Mway this morning (M66 south approaching M62 junction at Simister) I caught sight of flashing blues a couple of cars behind me (I was in outside lane).

I moved into a gap before the police car had got the guy behind me to move over and the patrol car went past. I moved back out and saw the police car drive come up right behind the next car who basically panicked and swerved into the inner lane I'd say without looking what was there.

If there had been a car on his inside there would have been a high speed collision.

What does the rule book say about balancing the need to get to whatever you're heading to in the shortest possible time and the likelihood that your driving may panic others into making dangerous maneouvres?

Thanks in advance


Edited by Dynamic Dave on 15/09/2008 at 01:00

Question on Police Driving - Dwight Van Driver
Manual of Police Driving Instruction (Home Office)

Chapter 7

Rule 16 (7)

Remember that a Police Officer must never be involved in an accident. No Police call is so urgent as to justify an accident. It is far better that a criminal should escape for the time being than that the crew of a Police car and other road users should be exposed to grave risk of injury.

>>>>>who basically panicked <<<<<< ???????????

dvd

Question on Police Driving - Nsar
Thanks very much DVD
Question on Police Driving - Tron
Even with alternate flashing mainbeam & strobe lights as bright and sirens wailing as loud as they are coming up behind or upon you from the front or your sides - people just fail to hear or see them until the vehicle is on top of them and then they panic.

All down to the civilian driver not paying attention to events happening around them or having the skills taught on how to allow emergency vehicles to pass safely.

Edited by Tron on 08/09/2008 at 17:28

Question on Police Driving - Orson {P}
Drive to arrive!
DVD, as always, has the answer.
We're also taught to "show" the car - ie: onto offside of road or down the middle so that oncoming/same direction traffic can see in plenty of time and take considered action rather than the panicked swerve.
There will always be people who don't look and people who don't see, and police drivers who cannot or do not show the car to best effect.
Question on Police Driving - FotheringtonThomas
All down to the civilian driver not paying attention to events (..) or having the skills


Police drivers are civilians, you know. However, I agree with the point of view that many people have rather low standards of driving. That said, some sirens can be heard from a fair distance, but it can be quite hard to know where the source of the sound is.
Question on Police Driving - P3t3r
>> All down to the civilian driver not paying attention to events (..) or having
the skills
Police drivers are civilians you know.


I think the key difference is that Police drivers are trained to drive at speeds far greater than the speed limits on public roads, but 'civillians' aren't. Having said that, even the skills of a good (civilian) advanced driver (IAM/RoSPA etc.) are likely to be far greater than the majority of civilians.
Question on Police Driving - SlidingPillar
While there are moments when I wish I had blues and two and a warrant card (like yesterday when a car overtook me at a great rate and then brake tested me as they realised they were going the wrong way) truthfully, I don't want the job. I've seen too many people utterly panic, with quite a few, just stopping and blocking the blue light user.
Question on Police Driving - stunorthants26
I had the misfortune of nearly hitting a cop car when he came flying onto a roundabout with lights on but no sirens. I was just starting to signal leaving the roundabout and checking my left mirror as he shot out - and then put his siren on.
The roundabout slopes upwards so you cant see whats coming on until they are 10ft from the line. Its no wonder accidents do happen and I think there are officers who dont mind scaring the public a bit.
Question on Police Driving - Rudedog
I don't usually comment on this sort of thing, but this morning a pair of police bike riders came up to the set of traffic lights in front of me. They were a couple of car lengths ahead of me in the right hand lane which is marked on the road with a turn right arrow, once the lights went green they proceeded to go straight ahead, obviously with their powerful bikes they were able to pull in front of the cars waiting in the left lane.

Is this allowed? Would I be able to 'jump' to the head of the que and do this with out any problems?
Question on Police Driving - VR6
I've nearly come a cropper due to someone paniking / not seeing police car till last minute.

Basically I saw 4x4 police car in the distance on the M40 and moved into Lane 1. The 4x4 was basically roaring up behind people who were sitting in Lane 2 getting them to move over into Lane 1, I could see them doing this in my rear view mirror. 4x4 came past me, roared up to a Pug 106 in Lane 2, who panicked, swerved into Lane 1 causing me to brake hard / slightly drive in the hardshoulder.

I got pulled, and was told that I was stopped as I had swerved eratically into the hardshoulder. Seeing as I didn't want any points I said sorry and went on my way.
Question on Police Driving - bickyboi
On my way/way home from work i drive about 15 miles on a standard 60 mph single lane A road at late night/ early morning. I have on numerous occasions been overtaken by police cars with no lights or sirens going whilst i myself was doing 60 mph.

Are police drivers allowed to break the standard driving laws when not on an emergency call, and if they are on their way somewhere in a hurry, why not put their lights/siren on?

I'm not asking this to be a pink fluffy dice, I have upmost respect for all the emergency services and the jobs they do, I just want clarification. What would happen if i reported these instances, I have no proof.

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 13/09/2008 at 20:45

Question on Police Driving - NorfolkDriver
I had this a couple of years ago, I was travelling towards Norwich on the A11 when a marked police car came up behind me as I was passing an HGV. I got passed (I was doing 70) and he booted it, so I flashed my lights.

He pulled over and I asked why he was allowed to travel at that speed when not on an emergency call? He told me that he was chasing another driver to which I replied he wouldnt have stopped. Invited him to get his boss on the phone so we could discuss his inappropriate driving but he declined so I took his number and the registration of the car and wrote to his Chief Constable when I got home.

Guess what? Never heard a word. Chased it up about 10 days later but still no answer so came to the conclusion that there is one rule for the public and another for the Police.

Oh, the driver he was "chasing"? He must have been a good driver as there were 4 Police cars in the next layby and I passed a further 3 within the next 12 miles.

Having said all that, I do get out of the way for the police at the earliest opportunity. This pink fluffy dice just picked the wrong time to try out his toy.

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 13/09/2008 at 20:55

Question on Police Driving - NowWheels
Well done, NorfolkDriver, but I'm surprised you got off so lightly.

There are plenty of cops who would respond to that sort of intervention by making your life very uncomfortable. One of the old tricks, frequently used against strikers, was to reach into a car, remove the tax disc ... and prosecute for failure to display. Other folks I know have been beaten to the ground without provocation, the prosecuted for assaulting an officer.

You may not hold that police driver in high regard, and I'm sure that most are much better ... but be thankful you didn't encounter one of those who is much worse.
Question on Police Driving - Westpig
One of the old tricks frequently used against strikers was to reach into a car remove the tax disc ... and prosecute for failure to display. Other folks I know have been beaten to the ground without provocation the prosecuted for assaulting an officer.


what a load of old tosh, total and absolute rubbish. An old war story repeated as true.

The Discipline Code for police officers is very, very stringent, there is CCTV everywhere now, many folk have mobile phones with cameras/videos on them. Police vehicles have Mobile Data Terminals that can 'snail trail' the previous 24 hours on a map showing average speeds and DNA technology has advanced to the point you can tell the previous 12 drivers driving a particular car, so who is going to nick a tax disc or beat someone to the ground unnecessarily?

I have well over 25 years experience in the Old Bill and have NEVER seen or heard anything of the sort.

If anything the modern police service is too frightened to do what they should be doing let alone getting up to what they shouldn't.

p.s you forgot the one about breaking the driver's rear light with a truncheon then doing the driver for a defective light
Question on Police Driving - Pugugly
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." Churchill or Orwell.
Question on Police Driving - retgwte
westpig

what nonsense

one of my best mates is a copper in the west mids, and has been for about 20 years

BUT just before he joined he was beaten up for no reason by a West Mids copper, he spent the fist few years in the job trying to track him down, gave up and concluded he had left around the time he joined

but he openly tells the story of that night he was beaten up

he kept it quiet cos he didnt want any controversy while he was in training or a pro con

ive spend some time working in the HQ of one of the bigger forces, I can tell you for free the senior officers in special branch will openly tell of their dodgy tactics, all in a matey kind of way, but clearly there is some bending of the rules still going on

i dont actually expect totally whiter than white coppers, i know its a tough job, and id probably end up beating the $"£$" out of some of the folk you have to deal with

but the fantasy that all is well in plod land is just that fantasy

there was a good few pages from a serving inspector in one of the papers today (the mail i think) which kinda reflected the reality i have seen and heard about

Question on Police Driving - Petel
"We may all rest easy in our beds, whilst rough men stand ready in the darkness, to visit violence upon those who would do us harm"

HG Wells
Rgds.
Question on Police Driving - NowWheels
what a load of old tosh total and absolute rubbish. An old war story repeated
as true.


Both those things happened to people who I know well, and who I trust: they are not blaggers. However, it may be relevant that the incidents in question happened 24 and 17 years ago, respectively. (locations Greater Manchester and Berkshire, if you want to place them).

Sadly, I have encountered other cases of police officers perjuring themselves so crassly in their enthusiasm to convict someone of a trumped-up charge that even their evidence could be demolished in court. It's rare, and it tends to happen in particular circumstances, but it's no fantasy (although as I wish it was).
DNA technology has advanced to the point you can tell the previous 12 drivers driving
a particular car so who is going to nick a tax disc or beat someone
to the ground unnecessarily?


Technology may have changed the nature of the game, on both sides. But however uncomfortable it may be for some people to acknowledge it, this stuff did happen.

You also seem to miss the point about the use of the technology. DNA etc is great for finding guilty people, but it would have been useless to the GMP officers who decided to criminalise my non-criminal friend; that's why they manufactured the evidence by removing her tax disc.
I have well over 25 years experience in the Old Bill and have NEVER seen
or heard anything of the sort.


So the sorry tale of the West Midlands serious Crimes Squad passed you by? (see tinyurl.com/5urf8c )

Most police officers I have met are decent folk who conscientiously perform a difficult, dangerous and important job. But at many times in police history, there has been a minority whose standards were deplorably low. Sometimes this has been criminal corruption (as cleaned up by operation Countryman, tinyurl.com/37v4o3 ), and sometimes (as with the two cases I mentioned above) it was a case where officers picked up on the political climate in which certain groups of people could be characterised as the "enemy within".

I'm much more comfortable with officers who are determined to watch for further outbreaks of this sort of thing than with those who claim that there isn't a problem, and never has been one. All police forces face the temptation to abuse their powers in this way, and the fact that British police have remained cleaner than those in other jurisdictions shouldn't make us think that they are all angels.
Question on Police Driving - Pugugly
There we are now that's out lets get back on topic.
Question on Police Driving - Hamsafar
Do the POLICE ever take retrospective action against these appalling drivers? I see so much of it and as their cars have video cameras, they should take the number plates and send them a ticket. After a few tickets, they will be taken off the road via totting-up.
Question on Police Driving - Tron
>Do the POLICE ever take retrospective action against these appalling drivers?

THE BLACK RATS

Fact or fiction?
Question on Police Driving - midlifecrisis
As a 'Traffic Cop' (I hate that term) with a good number of years experience, there's a lot ill informed tosh being spouted on here.

I work on a motorway, I often break speed limits without lights/sirens. The reasons are many and varied. I'm sure the Victor Meldrews amongst us would like to 'write to the Chief Constable', frankly I couldn't give a monkeys. There is such a large audit trail revolving around everything we do, that I can account for all the actions I take.

I've had people come to a complete stop in lane 3, I've had to get behind the blind and deaf and swerve from side to side in order to try and get people to notice movement in their peripheral vision. Frankly, driving standards are appalling.

As for 'chasing a car'. I've been attending an emergency and was held up by someone whose driving was so bad, I decided to pull him instead.

13 years and counting..it can't come soon enough!

Question on Police Driving - Lud
Heh heh.

Starsky and Hutch meet the Double-Take Brothers. Faults on both sides of course, but I know where my sympathies lie.
Question on Police Driving - Tron
Well said Lud & MLC.

Edited by Tron on 14/09/2008 at 01:07

Question on Police Driving - Ben 10
MLC,

If things are as bad as you say, why don't you consider a sideways move. The "traffic cop" is a certain breed within the service, and thats why you are tagged with the term "Black Rats". The one's I've met would shop their own grand mother. They definitely don't hesitate in "doing" their own. Hence the "Rat" tag by non traffic staff. The one's I've witnessed on the job-some are okay but many are unprofessional. I have several good examples of poor policing in my 27 years. You even give the impression that you are not one to mess about with and the anger shows in your post. I wouldn't like to get on the wrong side of you on the road, thats for sure.
Question on Police Driving - k9dan
Well said Midlifecrisis like you I'm serving, caught lots of bad guys not using sirens, and advertising I was arriving, the ones that I couldn't catch the dog did. To all you knocking Police driving, I would be quiet happy driving everywhere at 30 mph with no stress. So without knowing specifics and strange stories about theft of tax discs I won't comment further. I have been held up for 3 miles by an HGV who wouldn't pull over to let me attend a serious road accident. If you are unlucky to have someting serious happen near you and you phone for a cop would you A) like him to get there ASAP or B) attend sometime later taking his time etc etc. Given the distances the Police travel during a year accidents are few and far between, yes there are bad police drivers and they are subject to stiff internal disipline which where I work could amount to a fine totalling almost £3000, much more than any court, and with little hope of appeal.
Question on Police Driving - Westpig
>>happened 24 and 17 years ago respectively.

times have changed, dramatically, for the better. 24 and 17 years ago is a long time ago.
Sadly I have encountered other cases of police officers perjuring themselves so crassly in their enthusiasm to convict someone of a trumped-up charge


strong words, I repeat i have never seen that and i have been around a bit


>>that's why they manufactured the evidence by removing her tax disc.

and left their own DNA on the door handle and windscreen etc? Could leave themselves open to CCTV coverage etc, etc. Remarkably stupid thing to do when the DVLA has proof of the vehicle being taxed, so the only offence would be the exceptionally minor one of 'failing to display' which most forces wouldn't prosecute for. Who would risk a criminal record, the sack, no pension etc, for that?

So the sorry tale of the West Midlands serious Crimes Squad passed you by?


I meant personally. I am well aware of the odd case that springs up now and then and acknowledge there can be bad eggs in any profession. On the whole that is fairly rare and certainly far less than it used to.

But at many times in police history there has been a minority whose standards were deplorably low.


agreed

>.operation Countryman

over 30 years ago. The Bow Street runners had their moments too
I'm much more comfortable with officers who are determined to watch for further outbreaks of this sort of thing than with those who claim that there isn't a problem and
never has been one.


didn't say that, said i'd never seen it. There is a robust complaints/discipline system and on the whole that is a good thing

Now Wheels,
Your initial comments came across as a general 'Police' do these things i.e. 'they're all the same' type attitude... that is and was tosh. Even in the old days when there were such things as 'noble cause' corruption and similar, the vast majority of officers would have nothing to do with it. Nowadays it is most unlikely and rare, although i'd acknowledge some, thankfully a very small minority, do still overstep the mark... all walks of life do.

Would senior police managers allow so many fly on the wall t.v. programmes to be filmed, if all the officers were corrupt, or even a few were... would police forces allow members of the public to turn up, often at very short notice, sign a quick disclaimer then patrol with the local police, if they were going to witness corrupt goings on? Most demonstrations nowadays have constant t.v. or CCTV coverage and 'in house' videoing inc from the force helicopter, do you imagine there is a secret editing suite where all the bad bits get cut out?


In deference to PU's comments about remaining on a motoring topic, i'll call it quits from here on.
Question on Police Driving - ForumNeedsModerating
Remember that a Police Officer must never be involved in an accident. No Police call is so urgent as to justify an accident. It is far better that a criminal should escape for the time being than that the crew of a Police car and other road users should be exposed to grave risk of injury.

What exactly is this saying - well, nothing really - it's total tautological nonsnese - no diss DVD, it's not your rule after all.

If a police driver isn't involved in an accident attending a shout - the 'rule' above will be seen to have been observed & adhered to.

If they do have an accident, they must be driving in a way as to cause an accident.

It reminds me of witches & ducking stools.
Question on Police Driving - midlifecrisis
Scribe- the Officers I work with are dedicated and good at they do. The term 'Traffic Cop' is outdated and old fashioned. We may Police the m/ways, but focus heavily on transient crime. The traffic side of things, is a secondary role. I still enjoy my job (just), I don't enjoy the ill-informed whining from certain members of the public, who think they know it all.

And you are correct. I can give an almighty 'telling off' when warranted. Much more effective than a polite 3 points at times. As for 'anger in my post'...I'm sat drinking a beer after having two wonderful weeks in the USA. Just chilling..having a Bud (well a Becks actually)

Edited by midlifecrisis on 14/09/2008 at 01:30

Question on Police Driving - k9dan
LOL's enjoy the chill, doing the same in cloudy damp Britain
Question on Police Driving - Dwight Van Driver
>>>>>If they do have an accident, they must be driving in a way as to cause an accident.<<<<<

Thats weely wild woodbine.

The concept of Police Driving Manual/Road craft is not that you will never be involved in an accident but that if you are then you will not be to blame. as Westpig states the general standard of driving in Uk by Joe Public is urinally poor to say the least. (Dons Nato helmet etc)

Nearly choked on my toast and tea reading about the Excise Licence removal. Who dreams these up? Isn't there another that on a stop Plod winds the driver up that much that when he gives he a producer he throws it on the ground? Gottacha depositing litter.

Special Branch tales.......baloney. Impresses the girls.

In my 30 years only came across two in my force that crossed the line and they were very quickly rooted out.

...as you say PU back to more episodes of Plod trying to do his job.

dvd
Question on Police Driving - NowWheels
Nearly choked on my toast and tea reading about the Excise Licence removal. Who dreams these up?


I presume that the officer who did it to my friend was the one who dreamt it up.

The fact that it's an uncomfortable episode doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Lord Denning's remarks about an "appalling vista" come to mind.
Question on Police Driving - Pugugly
Run its course - seemed to have veered off topic and unable to find its way back.
 

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