The thing is, we ALL break the rules sometimes don't we? overtake when we shouldn't, merge when we shouldn't, go a bit over the speed limit when we shouldn't, push in when we shouldn't, and yes, even if it isn't classed as Road Rage, who hasn't muttered / sworn under their breath about the fool in front, behind, at the side etc:
We ALL do in some way or another, we shouldn't eat certain things, drink certain things, smoke certain things, do certain things, say certain things, the list is endless....................... I have driven past that long line on the inside lane waiting to go off the slipway on the M25 or where ever! I admit it, not always, but sometimes yes, sometimes I don't want to wait all day for Mr & Mrs Jones in their Nissan Micra, or Acme Haulage in the incredibly slow artic going up hill on a B road, or the Smith family with their caravan oblivious to the two mile tailback behind them, don't say you have never done any of the above because you have, and if you haven't, then YOU my friend are the biggest Jobs worth I know.......................................
(its good to break the rules occasionally!)
Good day to you all
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Try and blast past an orderly queue of traffic and attempto to squeeze in past me then!
I have been known to avoid eye contact with the "fast important driver" on the right and have actually "broken down" at such a point when I have been insulted by them sufficiently!
Unfortunately all that happens then is the people in the orderly queue keep flowing through on the nearside until I manage to restart my car and wait for a point I can get back in, then hopefully the fast important driver can find a space shortly after!
Why is it so hard to understand that only 1 car can get through the narrow space at a time and if people are in a queue and ready it flows faster! I agree the queue need not be x miles long, but it needs to be in order BEFORE the pinchpoint or even less traffic can get through than would otherwise be possible.
The HC may not be overclear on this, but I believe it does also advocate common sense and good manners !
And yes I would let you hit my car before I moved out of your way ! Would it bother me? Less than it would you !
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Any lane other than the leftmost one is for overtaking only. It's unlikely that a sensible overtake involves overtaking in a lane that's shortly to close to join the rear of a queue of slow-moving traffic.
So logically, no-one should be in the right hand lane at the point of the merge anyway. As soon as a sign indicates that the lane is closing all overtakes are "off" and everyone should be in the left hand lane.
The remaining stretch of open right hand lane is there for people to complete the manouvres they've already started and to give people who are slow to catch on a chance to move back over.
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Why is it so hard to understand that only 1 car can get through the narrow space at a time and if people are in a queue and ready it flows faster! I agree the queue need not be x miles long but it needs to be in order BEFORE the pinchpoint or even less traffic can get through than would otherwise be possible
Precisely! Basic hydrodynamics.
A single, orderly line is the most efficient flow through a restriction. Once the two lanes have merged and a single, solid, line has formed; then doing anything else is just arrogant queue-jumping that's slowing the whole flow down.
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So at what point should everyone join this single orderley line, to ensure it works equally for all, and is orderley, without people pushing into it anywhere along it's length this causing delays?
Ah yes, that'll be at the pinch point. But some people just don't have the mentality to permit zipping.
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The line really needs to be stable and running at a constant speed before encountering the restriction; so the zip-merging should be done a few hundred yards, at least, from the choke point - which is why they put all those advance warning signs out...
If the single line is tailing-back; then the flow-rate is clearly exceeding the maximum capacity of the restriction. In such a case both/all lanes should slow in tandem to the same speed and merge into one at a suitable distance ahead of the pinchpoint.
That's what the much-derided lane-blockers are achieving; they are preventing self-important overtakers that are messing the smooth flow up by, inevitably, forcing the settled line to slow to let them in and thus delaying everyone - except themselves.....
The "braking waves" on a full-capacity motorway are probably the best example of the delaying effects of irregular flow.
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Screwloose - I agree with you entirely, whilst these people may hold up those that want to nip to the front, they make the overall jam a little smoother as the messy process of merging is done way back meaning that it's single file getting through the restriction which is obviously quicker than merging in turn at the point of bottleneck.
In theory merge in turn should work just as quickly as everyone zip merges nice and smoothly, but we all know that doesn't happen in real life as people aren't capable of driving their car into the gap without resorting to braking from either themselves or the other car, which causes the car behind to brake, which causes the car behind that to brake etc. etc.
I've long felt this but haven't been able to write it as eloquently as you so have kept quiet through fear of being branded a heretic! :-)
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So we're agreed that the theory of zipping is sound - it's just the "where" which needs to be sorted. So why not at the pinch point rather than a rather arbitrary "few hundred yards"?
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>>So why not at the pinch point rather than a rather arbitrary "few hundred yards"?
If everyone drove perfectly, then, yes, there's no reason why it can't happen at the pinch point, BUT, there's no room for mimers, or even a hesitation. The result of a hesitation by either party would result in one or other either slowing significantly, or stopping completely, and then, that ripples back, and the whole queue will slow, or stop. This is, effectively the default condition as it occurs.
Merging before the zip point allows people (even mimsers!) plenty of time to complete the lane change, and keep the whole flow moving.
In my view, unless the whole queue is already almost stagnant, those who leave merging until the pinch point are among the larger causes of traffic queues in roadworks.
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I used to be a queuer, now I sometimes queue and sometimes sail (at a reasonable speed) along the outside of the queue. The latter is definitely the way to go.
The advantage is that, if zipping works correctly, there is slow movement in both lanes all the time. But queuers decide at different places that it's time for them to jon the queue before the pinch. This causes much more delay than zipping would, at least for those in the queue, as you effectively have lanes merging all over the place, under no control. Hard one to explain, but I know what I mean...
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Similar sort of problem happens on the M1 south at J14, Very busy at peak times , sometimes queueing back to Newport Pagnell services in lane one , yet you still get the idiots who slow right down in lane 2 almost to a stop in order to cut in nearer the exit slip.
Ditto for M40 J9 south as well, and any other major motorway exit come to think of it , But i think the M1 J14 is the worst!!
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Why do I have this strange feeling that this has been done before? ; - )
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where do you draw the line about 'where to merge'. Should it be where the queue starts, which at peak times obviously could be a long way from the obstruction, is it a set distance from the obstruction e.g. 100 yards, is it at the obnstruction?
the problem with everyone doing their own thing is a multitude of different opinions
-if you choose the 'where the queue starts' as being the point of merge, that could be many hundreds of yards if not miles from the obstruction... and at a point it is dangerous to queue. it would also leave a vast tract of empty roadway i.e. the lane that will eventually close.
-if you choose a set point e.g. 100 yards back from the obstruction, you'll still have people refusing to let others in and 100 yards of empty lane.
the road planners have decided on using all the lanes and instruct people to merge in turn at the obstruction, this lessens danger at the back of the queue (because the queue isn't as long) and efficiently uses all the lanes, even if the actual flow itself isn't as efficient as it could be.
That traffic flow could well be made more efficient if everyone did the same thing i.e did as they were told by the HA and let alternate cars go. Can't see the problem. Obviously the 'book early mob' don't like being 'had over' by people doing as they're told and efficiently using all lanes. I do agree though that rude or aggressive leaving it to the absolute last minute at the cones is ignorant and anti-social. There has to be a happy medium and IMO less than 10 - 20 feet is a no-no as is more than 60 - 70 feet.
As for road rage and deliberately blocking the road and being prepared to have an accident, I find it amazing that someone was willing to admit that on here. How foolish.
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Like i`ve said before, everyone should leave sufficient space from the vehicle front so traffic from the right can merge, i leave enough gap so that i don`t keep dabbing my brakes all the time, but i do get annoyed with drivers who leave it till they nudge the cones before pulling in.
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where do you draw the line about 'where to merge'. the problem with everyone doing their own thing is a multitude of different opinions
I think a good solution would be to put lane separation cones down, say for 500 or 600 yards before the pinch point, but have no cones for the last 50 yards or so. At that point, have a sign to indicate you can now merge in turn. This would then ensure that the principles of the HC are observed without causing road rage. It should also stop the self-appointed vigilante "blockers" who believe that they have a right to stop people they have judged to be "fast important driver"s.
I find it amazing that someone was willing to admit that on here. How foolish.
I don't find it amazing at all, especially as there are a few backroomers about who think their driving is superhuman and beyond reproach.
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There has to be a happy medium and IMO less than 10 - 20 feet is a no-no as is more than 60 - 70 feet.
Rather depends on the overall traffic speed though Westpig. The faster the traffic speed (and we want it to be faster, don't we?) the bigger these margins have to be. But the real problem with this is people's sense of rhythm, elegance if you like, in zip-merging as in other simple road manoeuvres. Four or five vehicles at a time might manage it with reasonable proficiency, mutually aware and backing off or accelerating slightly to fine-tune the zip as it closes; then there will be some hopeless fool, pathetic terrified mimser or screaming carphound who will shamelessly, and with great indignation, screw the whole thing up by hesitating or shoving rudely into the wrong place. And as we know, that sort of thing spreads like wildfire in traffic.
I am afraid that as a nation we possess a bolshy, not always intelligent, stubborn individualism which makes this sort of thing more likely. Some people never learn, and are proud of the fact. This isn't always a bad thing - it protects us, fingers crossed, from certain kinds of extremist politics - but it can be a right PITA on the road. We are a long way from my dream of perfect zip-merging: in which everyone doubles their road speed as they merge to make sure that a tailback doesn't form... I can dream, can't I?
:o}
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And dreams apart, in the real world one could do worse than taking HJ's advice to 'merge when you feel comfortable doing so', which is what one usually does. And resist the temptation to de-merge again when the people in front come to a halt for no apparent reason, or some eager beaver screams past up the hard shoulder. You already know, after all, that lane closures are irksome, so enjoy the variety of irksomenesses on display, and don't get too worked up.
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?As for road rage and deliberately blocking the road and being prepared to have an accident, I find it amazing that someone was willing to admit that on here. How foolish.?
Well, westpig as your comment was about me, may I remind you that anybody who wants to cut in at the last moment in front of me is, imo, a very rude, arrogant, incorrect and VERY FOOLISH driver. If he (you maybe?) want to do so and are prepared to hit my car because I wont give you a space then feel free and argue it in front of the insurers? My defence? I was in a queue as advised by the road markings when this more important faster driver tried to squeeze in from the right as part of an overtaking manoeuvre he had left too late! If the driver had been driving to the conditions and the road signs the incident would not have happened.
?don't find it amazing at all, especially as there are a few backroomers about who think their driving is superhuman and beyond reproach. ?
And jbif, my driving isn?t superhuman; its normal and polite, until a faster more important person thinks he can barge in at the last moment in front of me (and others).
If cars were in order BEFORE the pinch point the WHOLE queue would move faster. What on earth is so hard to understand about that?
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Well westpig as your comment was about me may I remind you that anybody who wants to cut in at the last moment in front of me is imo a very rude arrogant incorrect and VERY FOOLISH driver. If he (you maybe?) want to do so and are prepared to hit my car because I wont give you a space then feel free and argue it in front of the insurers? My defence? I was in a queue as advised by the road markings when this more important faster driver tried to squeeze in from the right as part of an overtaking manoeuvre he had left too late! If the driver had been driving to the conditions and the road signs the incident would not have happened.
If the queue is flowing nicely I merge earlyish.... if the queue is static i use the most empty lane and merge at the end, as you are instructed to do i.e. 'use both lanes' and 'merge'.
i don't accelerate at the last minute, swerve in at the last minute or wait until i'm scraping the cones, because that would be ignorant and rude...but neither do i pull in many hundreds of yards early as some do.
when i get to the end and someone jealously guards their patch and is willing to fight for it or damage their/my car I let them get on with it, i patiently indicate, move forward with the flow, then thank the person that lets me in
that is what you are supposed to do, i can't understand why you'd think otherwise
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Surely the literal meaning of "merge" doesn't include overtaking?
As it will take several hundred yards for the single line to stabilize separation and speed; there will always be a considerable length of empty lane - using that to queue-jump simply cannot be justified.
On a single-carriageway road with light-controlled road works; it's often possible to use the periodic absence of oncoming traffic to overtake the whole stationary queue and then cut in at the lights. Is that to be recommended too? It is "making use of both lanes." Or would that be reason to "offer advice?"
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More or less what I would hope to do too WP. Thanks for putting things a lot more coherently than I previously managed!
Yorkiebar - may I suggest that you keep clear of WP on the road in the future as I fear you may end up getting into a bit of trouble if WP is in 'company' car (or have you retired WP?) ;-)
B.
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Yorkiebar - may I suggest that you keep clear of WP on the road in the future as I fear you may end up getting into a bit of trouble if WP is in 'company' car (or have you retired WP?) ;-)
still going, but retirement looms......can't wait in many ways, but still enjoy doing it
some of the most enjoyment has been gained driving, in full uniform, in an unmarked car. One of the places i worked had an unmarked Honda Accord, with a 'kojak' blue lamp for the roof, which you could apply by opening the sunroof, blue lamps in the grills and sirens. When, rather than if, some clown did something stupid, you could gradually apply that lot starting with the kojak lamp and you could see their whole demeanour start to change.
I have a theory that bullies drive badly on the roads, because they think they can get away with it. Sometimes nice to see them get their come uppance.
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It's quite obvious that the get in lane very early and stay there element and the merge when comfortable element are approaching this differently and can never ultimately agree.
They can live with each other provided no one is too stupid and provided no one thinks they are right and those who do it differently are wrong. And provided no one tries to control other traffic either by deliberately getting in its way or by trying to force their way into a non-existent gap.
HJ and Westpig have it right in my opinion. Some others are a shade on the uptight and sanctimonious side.
One reason why lane closures are a pain is that they halve the traffic speed instead of doubling it the way they should. The other is that it reminds one more intimately than usual of what an incredible, galloping pain in the fundament other drivers can be.
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Agreed Lud...
Another way of making m-i-t more obvious would be to change the layout of the cones at the end - instead of right hand lane merging into inside lane arrange the cones so they both go into a lane of cones which straggles the white line between the two and then switches as need be after the merge point (if that makes sense!!).
Edited by b308 on 14/07/2008 at 11:48
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How about this as a general rule? "Use both lanes right up to the moment you observe that one solid queueing line been formed" ? When I need to merge, sometimes a tad speedily, it's usually because the solid line of robust queuers has only just come into sight (as I come over the brow of a hill or round a bend, for example.) At that point I slow down, indicator on, looking back and forth and demonstrate that I'm not pushing right to the front as that sort of behaviour puts everyone's back up.
If I can, I "let myself in" in front of a large slow moving lorry which is almost at a standstill as lory drivers tend to be more understanding of the situation. If there are no lorries about, then a mimser will find I slip in in front, but allowing plenty of room so as not to baulk him. All time favourite - only happened to me once - was a very gentle, almost imperceptible merge just in front of a BMW M3 which had just stalled. Priceless.
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