Is it really possible that a major manufacturer can make a car whose engine and gearbox have to be taken out to change the spark plugs, and that main Renault dealers charge £2,000 to do it?
It must be true if injection doc says it is, but my jaw is still on the floor.
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Lud, it's called progress,
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 10/07/2008 at 20:01
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Is it really possible that a major manufacturer can make a car whose engine and gearbox have to be taken out to change the spark plugs and that main Renault dealers charge £2 000 to do it? It must be true if injection doc says it is but my jaw is still on the floor.
On the same topic, I find it astonishing that VAG still use timing belts on may of their products, when the other German manufacturers use chains. The cost of replacing timing belts on many Audis is just plain bonkers.
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Long chains are no better than belts - worse in many cases.
There are many excellent belt designs around and there is no reason why access for changing them needs to be so restricted. Design priorities are down to the manufacturer.
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Surely the cost is not replacing belt/chain but if the belt/chain snaps. On a 25-30K + car, a belt/chain change would we small coins to the owner. I cant see any car having a 5 yearly change more than £1000.
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strangely enough the 806 was my 1st idea when she mentioned the renault but she dismissed it out of hand as 2 small, doubt she's really sure of what an 806 is. she'll be visiting this weekend with the tribe so will trawl the dealers for all suitable options for her to look at. and it would be one normal folding pushchair and one of the 4 wheeled pram jobs for the newborn, no new fangled fashionable tricycles here.
chris
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3.0 Espace - suitable only for banger racing.
This is more to buy but if fuel costs aren't an issue, should provide cheap(ish) motoring:
www.cargiant.co.uk/Citroen/C8/details.asp?Id=383389
and has the size she wants.
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Any reason why a Toyota Previa is no good. most were autos and I've only been in one briefly but it was huge inside. And I presume as long as you avoid ones who've been minicabbed then you're onto a reliable winner.
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i suspect the previa will be a no go unless it's the facelift model as my dad has an estima which is similar so won't be enough in the keeping up with jones's stakes. (yes i know how bad that sounds but take 1 sister and 1 step mum and welcome to reality, even if the rest of us are trying to make her realise she needs to settle for what's does the job well at the budget not what does the fashion)
chris
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If you really want a big V6 auto MPV for that money, get a 2000 onwards (i.e. 204bhp) V6 Galaxy. If a manual and 4 cylinders is ok, I'd get a 2.3 Galaxy or a high mileage 1.8T Alhambra. Both petrol, both sweet engines, both far cheaper than the agricultural diesel versions of the same vehicle. Find someone selling privately: they simply won't be able to shift a full size petrol MPV at the moment and they should take any sensible offer.
Mk2 versions of Galaxy/Alhambra/Sharan are much smarter inside than the MkI's: same overall parts bin as the MkIV Golf, a high point of materials quality.
Among European full size MPVs of that age, there is nothing really reliable, but the Espace is a complete money pit.
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Chris - she needs to get real and understand that there's no image difference between an Espace, a Previa or a Galaxy - the only image they give out is that the owner has a large family.
Maybe when I had my Espace new in 1988 there was a little bit of exclusivity, as it was (I think) the only car of its type around - and Espace drivers would give each other a cheery flash of the headlights - but that was 20 years ago. A people-carrier is seen as what it is - a practical answer to a need, no way a fashion statement.
Edited by Avant on 11/07/2008 at 01:27
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You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink. I would stand back now Chris. You've done your bit. Show your sister the relevant responses from this thread if she's interested. Sounds as if its one those situations where despite overwhelming converse opinion she is determined to be right. Any bloke knows what that means !
;-)
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"Maybe when I had my Espace new in 1988 there was a little bit of exclusivity, as it was (I think) the only car of its type around"
Definitely. I remember someone having a MkI one of these brand new on, I think, an E plate. There was nothing else like it at the time. I'm sure it had tables and captains chairs or something as well. We all marvelled at the amount of space and light inside compared to the saloons of the day.
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Thomp,
Before the sis spends her loot, get her to sit in the normal rear seats (not the boot seats), i spent some 2K miles in the back of one of these, and amazingly you cannot slide your feet under the front seats, so what looks like excellent rear legroom is not.
I too wouldn't touch one of these with the V6, remember having a volvo with a shared with renault V6, IIRC usual consumption around 16 to 18mpg unless driven like a saint.
New shape previa, if you can find one that hasn't been cabbed and clocked.
Kia sorento (again popular taxi, beware), Hyundai trajet, or a van based mpv, which peug/cit seem really good at.
With her mileage, she really needs a diesel in one of these very large cars.
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well the good news is she didn't buy a grand espace. the bad news is she bought a 1998 3.3 grand voyager, i haven't seen it they get it next weekend.
does anybody know what the problem with the front screen demister is? figures of 2k repair are quoted, is this as it's labour intensive or the parts are expensive? how do you test it hasn't got the problem, she doesn't collect it till next weekend so can get some last minute checks in.
cheers
chris
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Do hope shes not planning on crashing it. Why people buy a car with a known safety issue is beyond me. Did she not think of perhaps just making a car outta tin foil instead?
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i read they got a 0 for front end impacts in the ncap tests but we all know what the majority of women are like.
chris
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It was in the mainstream news, not just in motoring circles. I wouldnt take any child of mine in one.
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If it is the 3.0 24v engine i would have absolutely no problems in recomending it at all, it is one of the best engine and gearbox alternativs ever put in the Espace. It has a ZF box with very good reliability (not like the older 90* 2.9 V6 and gearbox combination) and you will get the same gearbox if you buy Merc, Peugeot and many more. If it has the gearshift lever on the floor you are safe.
The Espace has some reliability issues with the dCi engines and occaisonally with the 2.0 16v but apart from that it is very little problems with the car itself - lack of knowledge amongst service personell is something else.
The Espace JE (III) is the safest car to drive for that age and even beats new Peugeots in euroncap. Its a fiber body and near to zero corrosion problems, easy mechanics etc.
And regarding the spark plugs- NO, you dont have to take out the engine for that, it can be done "as is" but it requires about 3 hrs work. BUT they normally last for a very long time IF they are correct ones. They are supposed to be renewed along with the timing belt and that is also changeable without removing the engine.
Electrical problems ? I would say that the Espace JE have no more issues than any modern car. I've driven them for many many years both older and newer and the previous one i had did 630.000km when i put it to rest.
BUT every car will require maintainence and repair - and by goodness does Opel, VW and Ford indeed require the same *lol*
Good luck!
Edited by Pugugly on 24/07/2008 at 08:26
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....and i bet that not a single one of those people warning you about this car has ever owned one - they have only read problem-threads in forums. If you read forums you will read about problems. And if its a frog and especially Renault the level of pain is reeeally low but hey if you have a German car you are put to ease with many problems because they need repair and that is nothing to shout out loud.
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.....and even worse, resulting in a Voyager.... - already quoting 2k in repairs, thats more than a full cambelt service on the Espace and one of the most expensive service points on it....
Edited by Webmaster on 25/07/2008 at 01:44
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if its a frog and especially Renault the level of pain is reeeally low
That's not what it says in HJ's car-by-by-car breakdown: www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=335& ... which says "NOT RECOMMENDED"
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Fiat Multipla yet. I bought a new-shape '05 plate for £5250s still in warranty - plenty of space with 6 full-size seats and so far totally reliable. A £3.5k budget should buy a good example of (potentially) either body shape.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned Fiat Multipla yet.
It has 6 seats, but three of them are in the front, and that's no use for the kids (the Eurocrats have banned kids from the front seat). That leaves only the three back seats, which isn't enough for 4 kids.
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(the Eurocrats have banned kids from the front seat).
When did that happen NW? I regularly carry kids in the front and no-one has objected yet.
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Well - what can i say, so it says but a lot of whats written in that summary seems to be based on the writers point of view or with very poor backround search,
example:
"Whole dashboard needs to come out to replace a single dashboard bulb"
Not true, only top lid needs to get off and it has around 6 torx + unclip speaker covers and its "lift off" - a very easy solution compared with most cars out there, takes less than 5 minutes. The Espace II (J63) was near to the description when it comes to the heater bulbs....
"Radio is located in a well under the driver's seat where it can get waterlogged and fail."
Well, this is the first time i've heard about that as a common problem after X years of experience.
"Chipped or cracked windscreens (it's a lot of glass)."
Well, this is the first time i've heard about that as a common problem after X years of experience.
"Family damage from baby's bottles, food, sweets, felt-tip pens, dogs, etc. "
Is that an Renault Espace problem only ??
"Have heard of one wiring fire, which was a recall problem on the previous model diesels."
WOW - one, maybe....
If i remember correct on a big article the J63 (1992-1996) was very low on ADAC while JE (Espace III) was much better.... seems to be pretty mixed up and souped together. But i have been unable to document this while writing this reply. Anyone have detailed statistics it would be welcome.
Anyways - the Espace have a poor reputation and that is very much what sticks to a human mind.
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I wanted to set fire to my Espace on many occasions. In fact if it had self-combusted I would have danced naked and joyfully while singing a happy tune around the forecourt of my local Renault dealership. How I loathed that car. I can't even see one now without getting indigestion.
Apart from that, highly recommended.
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vdiag , you seem knowledgeable on the Renault topic , what is your angle - a Renault mechanic ?
I just can't imagine a modern car being designed where the engine / gearbox need removal to change a standard service item like spark plugs ??
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Anyways - the Espace have a poor reputation and that is very much what sticks to a human mind.
No, Renaults have a very poor reputation, the price that some Laguna's are offered for are very tempting for a minute in comparision to other large family saloons, then the brain kicks back in and you realise it going to cost you more in the long run on an electrician.
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