I never argue about 'pay jealousy'.
We are all free to do whatever job we like and salary is one part of the employment 'mix'.
Whenever a very high paid job is advertised justification is 'if you want the best you must pay for them'. Why should lower paid workers be treated any differently?
Driving around on our congested roads with some of the idiots out there with many tonnes of highly flammable liquid on the back, then safely decanting it so you don't blow up an area and kill or injure a few hundred people sounds quite a responsibility to me.
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Driving around on our congested roads with some of the idiots out there with many tonnes of highly flammable liquid on the back then safely decanting it so you don't blow up an area and kill or injure a few hundred people sounds quite a responsibility to me.
i think the fact that there isnt a daily occurence of these tankers blowing up all over the place proves the safety aspect of the job works well.
as its been said already this is not about the profits of the oil companies as these drivers dont work directly for shell so have no claim to any money made by that company.
and what they get paid already reflects on the job suffciently they are just being greedy but unlike the rest of us mere mortals their actions affect alot more people then any of us could ever hope to.
i have a full Hazmat license unfortunatly i also have a heart condition which has deprived me of my HGV driving priviledges would i drive a tanker full of petrol for £32,000 a year and be happy to get that? Damn straight i would
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I live in Cheshire. Most nights around 9.30 I make a 5 mile journey to a leisure club for a swim. It takes me past our local Shell station. Last night there were queues right out onto the road of people panic buying....again. :-(
As an aside, this journey normally takes about 15 minutes as it involves negotiating mainly built up areas. For the last week or so it has only taken 10 minutes. Significant lack of traffic. Might just be to do with the football on the telly but I suspect a lot of people have battened down. One stretch of the route takes me along our local "pub mile" which is normally heaving at that time in the evening. Recently though, there seems to be far fewer people about.
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Fire-fighters got 2% pay rise last year and have just been given 2.45% this year. Yes the tanker drivers might justify their rise because of their company's profits, but why should the public sector be used to cool the economy when the private sector can ask for and get above inflation pay rises and make the economy worse for us all.
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re supply and demand. On R4 this morning, they said that there were 50 applicants for every post when they advertised for a new driver.
Peanut
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How driving a tanker is different from driving any standard articulated HGV?
Isn't there any built in safety features on tankers to prevent accidents?
Do they entirely rely on drivers' skills for not causing accident?
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Whilst I doubt if tanker driving is any more dangerous than many other more poorly paid professions, I have seen photos of the tanker that went up on Newcastle Road in Sunderland a few years back.
Quite impressive, it was like a little bit of Iraq had been brought to urban England in the guise of a river of fire :-)
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If theyn are paid so little why have they not left and gone to work for someone else.
I will not buy from Shell outlets again as it is the only way I can get back at these greedy idiots! After all who do they think they are - MPs!
Edited by ijws15 on 13/06/2008 at 13:36
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Its a typical scenario these days.
£32k is more than a fair salary (I wish!)but becaused they're in a position to hold the country to ransom their union has pushed for a strike.
£42k to sit in a wagon all day? How does that compare to NHS ground level staff, firefighters, troops etc?
And so what if Shell make 1.5 million per hour - does that mean the drivers should be paid so much more?
Sorry, but striking for more money like this is just typically selfish and greedy.
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Their argument was also about the claim that had they remained Shell employess their salaries would gone to £41 to £42k. Somewhat tenuous, if only I had put one last number correct when I did the lottery!
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if you go by the 'danger' factor that these pityiful drivers are trying to spin to justify their actions should'nt forecourt attendance get the same wage as they tanker drivers after all arent they sitting on tanks of fuel all day too.
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Just to balance the opinions ( and I do think their money is not bad if you believe what you are told!)
However, they are more than a little upset because they have only been offered around 7%; whereas their managers have been given between 15 - 25 %.
So its ok to sit in the office (on a higher wage) and have a higher rise; but not pass it on to your workers!
Difficult one for me to call; but I do understand the viewpoint (s) !
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Whether or not we agree with their case, the drivers have industrial muscle and are exercising it. Why do they have this muscle - and such (relatively) high salaries? Because people get so upset about the idea of not being able to get hold of fuel for a day or two. If we all calmed down a bit, went about our business and filled up our tanks when we needed to, none of this would matter.
I'm curious about one thing, though. I read yesterday that these tankers supply about 10 percent of outlets; if the rest are still operating normally, even a spot of panic buying should come nowhere near cleaning out the whole network - should it?
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So its ok to sit in the office (on a higher wage) and have a higher rise; but not pass it on to your workers!
Assuming that the claim that the office workers are on a higher wage and have been offered a higher % rise is true, then that point is only relevant if you know how much they were earning before in relation to the market. I find that quite often, most office based jobs in the private sector are not protected by union agreements, and do not pay overtime, and are rarely well paid to start with.
In a free market economy, employers will pay what will sustain the business against direct competition - unless there is a strong union which represents the workers.
At Rover, free market economics were ignored until the company eventually failed.
Does anyone know who was the leader of the Union that was involved there? Did the union advise its members there to take pay cuts to reflect the £ millions that Rover was losing?
Who is the leader of the Union in the current Shell tanker dispute?
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I don't think I care how much money anyone else has or earns. No more than I care what anyone else chooses to or is given to drive. My only concern is how much income I am able to generate for me and my family and how much it costs us to buy things. Don't give two hoots what anyone else gets as long as they are not starving or deprived. Selfish ? ..maybe, but I would only begin to worry if the actions of these guys directly cost me money or convenience. I suspect there are much much bigger things to worry about not so far down the road.........
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As far as I am aware these drivers actually work for Shell. The last of their breed as all the other oil companies outsourced their transport in the 80's to avoid being held to ransom by the TGWU every year.
My uncle saw this happen as an ESSO driver, the union kept pushing and pushing and finally got what was coming to them.
They are already paid well above the market rate and if I were Shell my response would be 'you ungrateful pink fluffy dice' and I would outsource then ASAP. Will cost in the short run but big savings in the long run.
And if it happens they will only have themselves to blame.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 13/06/2008 at 19:36
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I wonder how much drivers of other types of "tanker" get paid, e.g. milk, inert gases, explosive gaes, etc. etc.
The hauliers must be annoyed though - these tanker drivers are salaried whereas small hauliers will be responsible for covering fuel costs, taxes, etc.
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Total chaos at Sainsbury's here in Sunderland as the panic fuel buyers move in.
The fuel station is accessed via a small roundabout and a short access road off it. The panic buyers are backing up onto the roundabout and blocking the road.
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"As far as I am aware these drivers actually work for Shell."
The drivers work for Hoyer UK and Suckling Transport (subcontracted from Hoyer, I think). The Hoyer MD was interviewed on TV, confirming that fact and that the matter was strictly between the drivers and Hoyer/Suckling. That is why Shell is not involved. Arguments along the lines of "We'd be on £XXk if we were working for Shell" are not exactly convincing, are they?
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7449850.stm
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My bad...
Now that really is bad. Bad, bad, bad!
p.s. Who changed the subject title to the BBC URL?
Edited by jbif on 13/06/2008 at 20:07
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They get paid a lot because if they make a mistake, they are usually dismissed for misconduct, this is because they are so heavily proceduralised, it should not be possible for something to go wrong.
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Well, lets be extremely grateful that the people in charge of fuel distribution have more idea about how to recruit and keep the best, and they know more than anyone why they pay so well.
If you pay peanuts you get monkeys, and by jimminy, you don't want idiots charging round with 5000 gallons of petrol sloshing about, you want the very best, and thats what you get, and you have to pay over the odds to get them.
Every day of the week, there are lorries turning over, smashing into each other and causing mayhem, how mant rants here recently about the dreadful, 'thick as two planks lorry driver'.
Do you really want some of that standard driving fuel tankers.
The views expressed here are not surprising, very easy to quote a gross wage and then jump up and down in outrage, as they are 'only' drivers.
As usual most of the ranters are unaware of whats involved, how many of the moaners know there are two 3 o'clocks in a day.
If you want to get a job as a tanker driver with any of the big professional companies, or indeed with other specialised and well paid operations, you'd better be prepared to do a few years driving for other less well paid companies, and keep a spotlessly clean record, especially rules and regs.
Oh by the way, accidents are out of the question.
Does anyone really think these jobs are dished out to any twerp that passes a test with Joe Bloggs driving school last weekend?
Yes, i'm quite sure they could get hundreds of licence holders (forged or otherwise), for far less than they are paying.
But if it goes down this way, and the job is cheapened and in the future farmed out to some fly by night former Soviet bloc operator, don't come on here bleating about the hundreds of people killed when the accident rate goes sky high (no pun intended), and fireballs are an everyday occurence.
Sorry i've had a rant myself here, and i know not all posters have such a paranoid hatred of working class drivers (despite the years of unblemished professional dedication and skill involved), but some of the more tabloid comments were patronising in the extreme.
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I'd do what Ronald Reagan did with air traffic controllers, sack the lot and readvertise the jobs at the new offered rates. Funny enough, virtually all of them re-applied and planes didn't fall out of the sky.
£40k for driving an artic is pretty good. I know a couple of HGV drivers who'd dream of such money.
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And of course you are aware that there are other drivers working for other companies running out of the same fuel depots that are being picketed. So sacking the Hoyer/Shell drivers, then advertising their jobs for less is unlikely to get the same result as the ATC's in the USA.
All petrol tanker drivers are at the higher end of the drivers wage market, that is country wide. The Hoyer drivers represent only a small percentage of those drivers, but as usual the media is hyping it up and telling every one the sky is falling down!!!
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>>>>>but some of the more tabloid comments were patronising in the extreme. <<<<<
Well said gordonbennett, you just beat me too it.
I would like the OP to tell us what qualifications he has to judge just what is a reasonable wage for driving a lorry?
The chances are I can't do the jobs that most of you do, and neither can most of you do the job that the small minority of us do on here either.
Yes, you may well get from A to B down a motorway driving a lorry, but ask you to load and secure anything and you'd be lost. Driving is a very small part of the skills involved in a 'lorry driving' job.
And as for sleeping in a layby without a shower, loo and restaurant......................I could go on but it would fall on deaf ears.
Rant over!
Pat
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.... the job is cheapened and in the future farmed out to some fly by night former Soviet bloc operator, don't come on here bleating about the hundreds of people killed when the accident rate goes sky high (no pun intended), and fireballs are an everyday occurence. ..
Two major flaws in that argument:
1. Where are all the everyday fireballs in the Soviet bloc countries then? I know, the oil companies are keeping them secret from the world media.
2. The tanker drivers for all the other petrol companies in the UK are quite happy with their "poor" wages.
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Two major flaws in that argument:
If you spend a lot of time on the roads you will have seen how many foreign trucks make progess, and the resulting accidents, do you really want them delivering petrol in Britain?
No fuel tanker driver in this country is on poor wages, they are all at the top 10% of salaries earned in the haulage industry, and rightly so.
When these wages are talked about in this way, people tend to compare to other industries where workers will have a 35 to 45 hour week with normal hours working.
That doesn't apply and never has with the transport industry.
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How driving a tanker is different from driving any standard articulated HGV? Isn't there any built in safety features on tankers to prevent accidents? Do they entirely rely on drivers' skills for not causing accident?
I can assure you that around here the Heating oil tanker drivers of SOME companies drive like idiots and 'experienced' drivers on some of these companies, on well established routes, have gone through hedges and into fields, spilling their loads and causing environmental chaos cos they drive like Richard heads. It may be their doing as in job and finish OR it is pressure from the office to perform? Either way...unacceptable.
MD
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Very unacceptable but their only on about £21,000 per year, so as has been said, you get what you pay for.
Pat
Edited by pda on 13/06/2008 at 22:10
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Well I've been tailgated by petrol tankers on the motorways many times. I've seen good considerate manouvres and some ridiculous stunts that could have ended in tears. They're not all saints and some of those in the minority who let the profession down, do not deserve 40+K.
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I'm still wondering who was driving the Shell tanker this morning on the M60 anti-clockwise towards Stockport - around 11:20am ;-)
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Lots of posts about the safety aspects etc. and standards of professionalism. Lots of jobs require professionalism. What about firefighters, paramedics or indeed the guys and girls who drive our PSV's - driving a bus carrying 40 kids to school? That's a responsible job. All of those jobs pay a good deal less than £40k. Let's face it, these guys are demanding more money because they have the muscle, they know the impact that a strike will have.
What astonishes me was that they were earning around £32k in the early '90's. That was one heck of wage at that time. No wonder Shell subcontracted it all out.
I have to admit though that often the management do not set any kind of example and are the first with their noses in the trough, not showing any restraint at all. Its not conducive to good industrial relations.
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Gordon Bennett has it right. My son in law drives for a major company on tankers doing regular nights.
A lot of training and ongoing is required and the standards are very high.
Reporting on duty a nurse is on duty for every shift selecting random drivers for breathalysing and checking their health. He will not even drink between shifts.
One serious mistake at work can lead to instant dismissal.
The stories he tells of abuse when delivering at night in city areas is appalling.
young drunken yobs gathering around the tanker in the middle of the night when discharging fuel and throwing lit cigarettes near the pipes is a common event. Physical violence often threatened by these scum. One night air rifles being shot at his tanker on the forecourt. And this is England.
Special security as tankers are considered a special target to hijack for terrorists.
Its not as one poster suggests sitting in a cab all day. They may do four full load trips in the night and concentration is needed when actually discharging to prevent pumping into the wrong tanks which has serious consequences for the driver.
I suggest that before condemning high pay for manual workers they should find out what the job entails and perhaps come to the conclusion that they would prefer sitting behind their desks in their air conditioned office.
wemyss
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Qxman
This 40K is including all available overtime.
I believe their basic at the moment is around the 32K, big difference between those 2 figures.
Now this will be unsocial and possibly split shift work, they will be increasing their earnings to get the top money by covering holiday relief, doing extra shifts and covering extra work.
Believe me you do not want dodgy agency drivers covering this work.
I would imagine if the school bus driver did 60 unsocial hours and weekend cover he'd probably earn more than the 20 hours a week he currently does, same with the firefighters and even police officers, the basic's not always fantastic, so we do extra work and shifts to make it up.
These stories of working class people earning good money are so often mis-reported, and shocking top line figures are quoted.
I may get similar remuneration to the subject in hand, i drive a car transporter.
This morning i was up at 03.15, started work at 04.00 and worked hard and solid apart from statutory rest periods until 1730. I covered just under 700kms.
Should i wear my hair shirt as i collect my wage, will you come and spend a week with me to see just how hard some of us work to put bread on the table.
I'm not complaining about my job, i'm very fortunate to be in it, i worked my way up to a good company by working for some scabby ones along the way.
Funnily enough, some of the younger dealership sales people make clever remarks about our reputed earnings, wishing they could do the same.(with just a hint of sarcasm)
Thats usually in the summer, they don't say the same when i've driven 4 hours to get 11 cars to their showroom for 9am when they roll in (then get a coffee and have a meeting for an hour), and its minus 4 snowing outside in February. My job all of a sudden isn't so great.
Many of these Shell drivers will have similar stories, these companies want some hard graft for this type of money, many people cannot work this hard, and are content to work 9 to 5, so be it , don't complain when the grafter that works 5 to 9 earns more. (those hours would be illegal, but i'm sure you get my drift).
I do know the opinion truck drivers are held in, i've been doing it for well over 30 years even 'thick as two planks' me has got the gist of it by now.
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The problem the average lorry driver has with this strike is that the general public will now be under the impression that we're all earning around £35k per year.
This isn't so, here are a few facts
I have been in this job for 28 years, living in a lorry cab all week and Im a typival average lorry driver.
I paid over £1000 29 yrs ago for my own training. I gave up a salary and company car to do this job.
I pay for my own licence and medicals ( every 5 yrs) and digi tacho card for which I can't claim any tax relief.
For the first 5 years of my career I did my 'apprenticeship' such as it was, on general haulage. I learned to rope and sheet anything on my flat trailer which is a skill on it's own. I handballed 22 tons of potatoes on my trailer at least 3 times a week, along with the lads who did the same, and that's what I call hard work for a 5'2'' female.
I took, and paid for myself, my Certificate of Professional competence some years ago to enable me to be a Transport Manager, but after a couple of years I hated the confines of an office and came back 'on the road' again 8 yrs ago.
For all this, I earn £24k a year if I'm lucky and I work for a very good firm, many are only around £22K.
I get no works pension scheme, I get the princely sum of £68 per week SSP if I'm ill and off work.
I do legally 71 hours per week every week from Monday to Friday, and then maybe another 6 hours on a Saturday some weeks. My days usually start around 2.30am and finish at 5pm. I sleep in my cab all week and only see my home at weekends.
Yes, there is better paid specialisd work in road haulage such as gordonbennet and the tanker drivers do, and good luck to them for earning it, they deserve it.
I, like 95% of the lorry drivers you see on the road every day do it because we love it, and not for the renumeration.
You may think we're all mad but we look forward to going to work, how many of you can say that?
Pat
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No-ones saying your not skilled, but there are plenty of people out there who have equally skilled jobs, have people's lives in their hands and get paid a pittance compared with the tanker drivers, is that fair?
There are also certain people who get paid what the tanker drivers are striking for every week and couldn't even get us through to Euro 2008 - that certainly isn't right!!
Lets be truthful, the tanker drivers are doing it because they can, and will, force their employers to capitulate, its just a case of power combined with greed - train drivers are another group who have been using (sorry, abusing) their position - which means that there's less in the pot for everyone else.... who's more desrving of a decent payrise - a tanker driver or a nurse?
Answers on a postcard to........
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Why should anyone be more deserving than another?
We all deserve to earn as much as is possible for the jobs we do.
A businessman would be applauded and promoted for grabbing such an opportunity with both hands to make more money.
No difference whatsoever.
Pat
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I could be picking this up wrong - it has been known before!
Am I right in saying these drivers are not employed by Shell, but by Hoyer who have a contract with Shell to deliver fuel?
If this is the case, surely Hoyer's contract with Shell has hee-haw to do with what profits Shell makes? If Hoyer negotiated this contract and were happy with it, why are their staff striking now? Or to be more exact, why do the staff have a gripe with Shell?
Using the same theory, then anyone who works for Heinz could strike every time Tesco announce their profits?
And if I am totally wrong here let me know within 15 mins so that I can edit my thread accordingly ! :)
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"I would imagine if the school bus driver did 60 unsocial hours and weekend cover he'd probably earn more than the 20 hours a week he currently does, same with the firefighters and even police officers, the basic's not always fantastic, so we do extra work and shifts to make it up."
Up until recently firefighters were not permitted to do overtime. Even now it is once in a blue moon. And if you have had 21 days sick in 3 years you are banned from doing any overtime. Certainly not enough to compare to other professions. Nurses/coppers on the other hand can do very nicely from OT. Firefighters cannot do regular overtime like the tanker drivers, so you are misinformed. Hence their salaries are below national average.
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have a look at what an ambulance service paramedic earns...then compare with the wage claims for the shell tanker drivers
something wrong somewhere
you cannot tell me driving a damned great diesel ambulance at emergency service speeds, then the stress and strains of what most of their calls entail is any less deserving than a petrol tanker driver...(i think ambulance service staff are woefully under paid for what they do, more so than nurses).
the top range of salary for tanker drivers, quoted in the press, is a very good wage for many. See what position and responsibility a police officer, fire fighter, nurse or ambulance officer has to attain to receive that salary...overtime or not.
pda,
your quoted figures would suggest that the tanker drivers are seeking nearly double what you or colleagues earn...does that sound right? It doesn't to me.
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PDA is entitled to his opinion on whether certain workers are "more deserving", just as much as I am with mine, even if he is wrong! ;)
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"PDA is entitled to his opinion"
PDA is a "HER"
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you cannot tell me driving a damned great diesel ambulance at emergency service speeds then the stress and strains of what most of their calls entail is any less deserving than a petrol tanker driver .............
When it comes to driving skills, I understand that a tanker has to be handled very sensitively because of the effect of several tons of fuel sloshing about even though the tanks are divided up by baffles.
Edited by L'escargot on 14/06/2008 at 13:06
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When it comes to driving skills I understand that a tanker has to be handled very sensitively because of the effect of several tons of fuel sloshing about even though the tanks are divided up by baffles.
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I have no doubt the driving skills required are right at the top of their range, no doubt at all.. i.e. difficulties of driving HGV in first place, fluid moving about even with baffles and flammability issues
but my comparison relates to the stresses and strains of chucking a large slow vehicle about in emergency service mode (worse for fire brigade )...combined with.... dealing with a dying baby, mutilated child, hysterical mother, dearly loved heart attack victim who isn't going to make it, RTA victim, chemical incident, etc, etc
IMO there isn't a comparison and whilst my figures are not up to date, hence me not stating them, a few years back I was surprised at how little they earnt, which to my mind makes the tanker drivers claim considerably less valid
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Westpig
I know what sort of money can be made by serving police officers, my stepdaughter is one, and they can do quite nicely when its available.
If you do 60 or so hours a week, you'd be around some of these figures.
Remember this 40K being banded about is including every bit of overtime available, which if i'm any judge will be around a 60 hour week, so the real figures at the moment are 32K salary and they want 36K salary. Again as in the police and other services jobs, these are not 35 hour weeks at 9 to 5 with dinner time finish Fridays.
Pat (pda) would be in like a shot if she lived in an area that had the type of specialised work that pays the higher end, she'd think of it as a promotion to a much better job, with the ensuing responsibilities associated.
Hope you don't mind me speaking like this Pat, you and i both know the drivers on the specialised operations got into the more lucrative work by sheer fluke or word of mouth, and most of us have done the same as you, grafted for donkeys years for a normal drivers wages.
Pat herself appreciates that there comes a big responsibility change when you get into the more specialised work.
Whats most annoying is the constant attitiude aimed at truck drivers, always from people that can't or wouldn't do the job, its always the people that don't do my job who are so much better at it than i am.
You pass your HGV test tomorrow, get a job driving a normal truck for maybe 5 or 10 years, few car transporter or fuel tanker operators would take on a novice, and thank heavens for that, these vehicles are not something to learn the ropes on.
If you get a job driving car transporters you will be trained for up to 2 weeks (on a decent company, some give em a days training and throw em out on their own), after about 2 years operating these vehicles, you start to get the idea of what you are doing, and some 5 or so years later you start to become profficient.
The fuel tankers will have a similar recruitment and training procedure.
Not everyone who holds a HGV can or should do these jobs, similar to the services, there is an attitude and capability requirement.
Anyway if its envy of the tanker drivers lucrative positions, those who feel that way can always get a HGV licence, and apply and then realise just how different and difficult and hard working their world can be.
Shall we turn the clock back a little more then instead, and get the old flat cap on to doff to the gaffer as he passes by.
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gb,
i'm not anti-lorry driver, far from it, i'm just saying keep it in perspective
soldiers driving lorries in Afghanistan, what are they earning?
I have no doubt many professions can up their salaries by working excessive hours and that in itself isn't always ideal.
A £32k basic salary is pretty good compared to pda's or the two examples i've given (ambulance officer/soldier)
I think in these times of financial hardship it is not right to be trying to increase your salary from a basic £32K to £36K by bullying for what is essentially a driving job, (albeit highly skilled with inherent dangers)
for the record i'm salaried so don't get overtime....i have no complaints
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Hence their salaries are below national average.
Below £23845 per annum? tinyurl.com/n5a5b
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Below £23845 per annum? tinyurl.com/n5a5b
L'escargot: your link give median, not average, wages.
www.conceptstew.co.uk/PAGES/mean_or_median.html
try www.incomesdata.co.uk/payindex.htm
Edited by jbif on 14/06/2008 at 14:23
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I had a really good think about this situation last night and i have come to the conclusion that in fact it is the union that should bear the whole responsibillity for whats happened.
Dont get me wrong i still disagree with the drivers in principle but im seeing that they are being used as much as anyone in this........let me explain why.
Lets forget for a moment about how much the drivers earn i think that getting the whole matter bogged down and the real point is being missed, they earn what they earn nothing we can do about that.
The drivers are saying they havent had a pay rise in 16 years (maybe true i dont know for certain) where was the union 5 years, 10 years ago why havent they already addressed this they could have got these drivers 2-3% per year in that time taking them upto what they want now and this year they would have been quite happy to take another ordinary rise and we wouldnt have the strike we have now.
It wasnt the drivers that turned down this current settlement proposal it was the union, why did they not put it to the drivers im guessing alot of the drivers would have taken it and counted themselves lucky to get 13% (a pretty good settlement regardless of how much or little you make and more then anyone could honestly expect).
i am pretty much in the mind now that this strike has more to do with the union diverting attention then the pay, any union worth its weight would not have called a second strike when public opinion of the first one is so low, strike action is purely to bring in pressure on the people your striking against and frankly this has totally backfired on the union this time round.
No this strike has nothing to do with pay it has everything to do with the union diverting attention away from the fact they havent been representing their members intrests for so long.
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The drivers ARE the union. They vote for strike action in a ballot. They tell their union bosses what they want. Not the other way round. The union officials carry out their wishes on their behalf. Unions are not run these days as they were in the 70s, I'm afraid. I deduce from your post that you have no idea how unions work today and that you are not in one yourself.
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Watching the news this morning, it looks like the strike is not significantly affecting the motoring public anyway. Allegedly the four day strike next weekend will also have minimal effect.
The sandwiches are allegedly getting past the sell-by date in some Shell garages as they shut up shop and their profits go to other petrol retailers.
It seems to me its the Shell retailers (franchises?) that are the only one`s taking the stick along with the tanker drivers losing wages.
Apart from the local Shell garage (which I use) nearby are
BP, Total, Jet, Morrisons, Sainsbury`s, Asda, Texaco, Esso ..........
Switched from Shell to other brands. After all, why not?
*I`m not at all judgemental about the strike*, but reflecting on it, reminded again about Shell profits and so on.. but switching brands is a nice little kick back against that. (If only psychologically) ;)
For better or worse, the strike is not working as an alleged lever against the motoring public though is it?
Edited by oilrag on 15/06/2008 at 12:02
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I can't help thinking the (Unite) union has rather mishandled this dispute. From what I understand, the drivers currently work overtime (total hours up to 60 per week?) & maybe other 'concessions' are given too, e.g. flexible cover to other drivers' absence, holidays etc.
Perhaps they've already tried a 'work to rule' approach', but if not , the withdrawal of 'goodwill' (as above) in this way has much to commend it as an approach. Firstly, they'll not lose most of their wage - they may even be better off, pro-rata, as higher rate tax takes propotionately more of their gross. Secondly, it doesn't invoke or involve as much union law or involvement of from outside agencies (ACAS, employer federations, govt. pressure etc.). Thirdly, it avoids most of the negative publicity we've seen of late from the right-of-centre press & subsequent influence on, or skewing of, public opinion - or indeed the directly attributable effects of union action on the general public.
Lastly, the 'slow strangulation' effect of 'work to rule' on the overall efficiency & profitably of the employers is more insidious. Their distribution processes get more & more out-of-kilter, the employers' relationship with Shell (contractual agreements, service level agreements etc.) is more strained & focused on them, rather than the drivers. Currently, the perception is of union vs. Shell - rather than haulage contractors unable to meet their contractual agreements with Shell - which is what it is in reality.
I've no view about the rights vs. wrongs of this or 'proper' level of remuneration for these drivers, in a way, it's none of my (or anyone else's) business - it's market forces.
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presumably, at some point Shell will get the hump with the poor publicity and/or lack of fuel turning up..... and change haulier..
at which time there will be a load of redundancies... some of the drivers may well be hired by the new company who gets the contract, but again probably only the ones with a good sick record and/or haven't been too militant
i foresee some foot shooting happening eventually
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presumably at some point Shell will get the hump with the poor publicity and/or lack of fuel turning up..... and change haulier..
That won't work WP, as in my particular side of the industry, those lads stick together, and any new contractor would be obliged to take on the drivers, at the proper rates of pay too.
Any new contractor turning up with other labour would be blacked, its happened in my game too.
Our game has long memories too.
I forsee them meeting somewhere in the middle ground money wise, and i say jolly good luck to them.
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gb,
sorry for my ignorance
so company A has a problem and cannot fulfil its' haulier obligations for whatever reason... then a large company like Shell if it wishes to ask haulier B to do the job instead...
for the system to work haulier B has to employ haulier A's staff, even though in this case it would be those staff that arguably casued the problem in the first place?
I though that old malarkey went out the window in the 80's
I genuinely think that a Union or similar is an important part of the system...however it really rankles me when that system is abused and resorts to unnecessary bullying, or in reality blackmail. That isn't good for the economy or industrial relations, because eventually it will get stamped on, which can weaken Unions for the times workers really need it.
Don't know enough about the background of this case to really comment...but I have a few suspicions looming
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WestPig, the reason Haulier B would employ the ex staff of Haulier A is because there are not xx amount of trained petrol tanker drivers around. It is a specialist side of haulage and as such commands higher wages and it takes a fair while to train a driver to petrol regs standards. As a result the quickest and easiest way for the new haulier to get staff for the contract is to employ the old staff. Similar things happen in all aspects of road haulage, only xx amount of trained drivers to fill xx amount of jobs.
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... only xx amount of trained drivers to fill xx amount of jobs.
It would be relatively painless to sack all the tanker drivers, and train new ones over time. I say relatively because, as Reagan proved, "previously considered impossible" things can be done if there is the will:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Air_Traffic_Con..._(1968)
"Reagan fired the 11,345 striking air traffic controllers who had ignored the order,[3][4] and banned them from federal service for three years .... . The union was decertified on October 22, 1981 "
Shell top brass said yesterday that the impact of a prolonged strike on their profit would be insignificant - their UK retail petrol supply is not very significant and the majority of Shell's revenue is derived from international operations. They could ride out this dispute for a very long time.
As for gordonbennet point about foreign hauliers, I have said in previous discussions [in other threads regarding VED and fuel duty] that the best solution is to have a level playing field across EU member states whereby we all pay the same VED and fuel duty. Of course for a full level playing field, ultimately, we should all be one country with exactly the same taxes, the same benefits, the same rights, the same laws, and just one EU parliament with one leader for all EU citiizens. Except we in Scotland should be allowed to be an independent, outside the EU control, so that Scotland can join the OPEC countries and rake in good prices for its oil, free from the grubby hands of Brown & Co.
Edited by jbif on 15/06/2008 at 17:53
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I've not put it very well WP.
The practice i'm talking about is usually used where a large company has different hauliers tendering for a contract.
It could apply here though as well.
It may seem odd, but if decent companies didn't have correct negotiations with unions representing their workers, we'd very soon be back to the 30's
Strangely enough, with the massive movable workforce now available thanks to our takeover by the EUSSR, i believe we may well start to move back there, (especially once Lisbon treaty is ratified, and it will be, we then are just a small satellite of Europe.
This all my opinion only of course.)
I know that seems very desirable to some, but this could be thin end of wedge.
Take for example some of the postings recently where some have suggested it would be good if the foreign trucks and their drivers took over.
Foreign truck here...pays no road tax, no fuel tax, no tolls except the few eg. Dartford bridge etc. Uses our roads and facilities for free.
Exchequer loses millions in taxes.
Foreign driver here...pays no income tax, pays nothing at all into the country, will bring food with him, and many will pick and choose which drivers hours and regulations apply to themselves.
Exchequer loses millions in taxes.
I realise you won't be able to comment, but their accident rate speaks for itself.
(We have a bit of a ghoulish thing going at the moment, whilst travelling down motorway, usually, come upon scene of car or several cars spread all over the place, often facing the wrong way on hard shoulder/armco we now try to judge the distance to the foreign truck which will invariably be parked some distance further along the carriageway, with your mates interviewing the driver.)
British drivers redundant claim dole. Exchequer loses millions in payouts.
Almost reminiscent of the miners.
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"Almost reminiscent of the miners."
What if EU truck drivers ( rather than trucks) are the North sea gas of the post miners strike era?
Wishing you well GB.
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I take the point about cheap Eastern Euopean labour and/or lorry companies undercutting British prices...don't have an issue with this country looking after its' own for the reasons you've stated. In fact I think it would be sensible if we did.
I don't agree at all with the miner's comparison, their's was an industry that was finding the resources to be finite and the costs going up, so something had to give at some point. The viewpoint of my 'dad did it, i'm doing it I want my son to do it', was utter head in sand. Probably a subject best left alone on a motoring website.
I don't see the tanker driver's dispute as being a traditional 'poor workers being sat on' dispute, not at all. pda helpfully posted some details inc her salary and the long hours she works. Currently a Shell tanker driver is earning a third more than pda and that's just for their basic hours, not overtime.... her figures inc o/t.... so they're not exactly down on their backsides.
More and more people are finding things difficult and I suspect there's more pain to come.
In and industry known for poor pay and conditions, does a basic salary increase from £32K to £36K sound all that 'needy'..it doesn't to me...particularly when you factor in other things, already mentioned but not replied to, such as the salary paid to a soldier driving a lorry right now in Iraq/Afghanistan, who will be earning less than half what a Shell tanker driver is now, let alone what the tanker driver is currently seeking and striking for.
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"I don't agree at all with the miner's comparison, their's was an industry that was finding the resources to be finite"
There's still about 300 years worth of coal in the ground around Britain.
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As WP said, it was costs getting it out that was the deciding factor, but as he said that's not a discussion for this forum....
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He raised it. But I agree, not a subject for this forum.
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I noticed on the way in that petrol at the local BP station had shot up 3p a litre to 118.9. Profiteering on the back of panic buying?
Normally I'd have a go at the petrol station, but in this case I'm quite happy for them to make money off the back of all those stupid people who lost whatever common sense they had, panicked and caused the fuel shortages in the process.
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Normally I'd have a go at the petrol station, but in this case I'm quite happy for them to make money off the back of all those stupid people who lost whatever common sense they had, panicked and caused the fuel shortages in the process.
The rational approach is to 'panic buy' though - if that doesn't seem like an oxymoron.
If you assume most people will fill-up 'unnecessarily' & cause artificial shortages, the best thing to do is get your retaliation in first.
You may nobly claim rationality & commonsense from the hard shoulder, out of fuel, as you watch the panic-buying dolts speed by with their full fuel tanks.
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Do we live in a communist state yet?
Since when has salary == worth? I could spend all day digging holes, breaking my back but that wouldnt give me 42K would it?
Lets face it, the comparisions to public servants is how do you value the police/emergency services/nurses/doctors etc ? Priceless.
I find it extremely offensive that people should question the worth of anothers salary. At the end of the day its market forces - if Hoyer etc pay good wages then they must think its worthwhile. Why should the tanker drivers have to justify demands?
I dont like intellectual snobbery and the undermining of another persons skill!!
Does it matter what they earn - who's business is it? I accept stirking could affect us but they could just as easily be on 20K striking for 25K.
Dont like your job?Feel underpaid? Get another one me-think.
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It still makes me laugh they way these guys boast of being 'professional' drivers.
So you drive for a living then? Big deal - its a job like all others. I don't buy my sprouts from a 'professional' grocer or get my burgers from a 'professional' burger flipper!
So they require some training to drive and HGV then? How many jobs require specific training.
Going on strike is extremely unprofessional in my opinion.
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>>Dont like your job?Feel underpaid? Get another one me-think.
Yes, I hope somone's saying exactly that - to the striking drivers!
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You people remind me of Thatcher when she said Ambulance drivers are just glorified taxi drivers. Driving is just a small part of these people's jobs. There is a lot of dangerous substance knowledge required and one mistake and you are out of a job, unlike the public sector. "Jealousy is the bedrock of socialism."
Edited by Hamsafar on 16/06/2008 at 14:59
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So, I calculate it at £5.40 per gallon. Anyone remember the £1 "barrier"!!
Strikes are often caused by poor 'management' on both sides. Certainly the fatuous comment 'if we'd still been employed by Shell we'd now be on £4,000 more' doesn't bode well. Since the deal was accepted some years ago, I assume the new out-sourced employers were 'done over' by clever Shell people at that time, and are now unable to do anything but pass on the problem to their employees, the drivers. Probably have banks all over them from the original time of the deal.
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I find it extremely offensive that people should question the worth of anothers salary. At the end of the day its market forces - if Hoyer etc pay good wages then they must think its worthwhile. Why should the tanker drivers have to justify demands?>>
I dont like intellectual snobbery and the undermining of another persons skill!!Does it matter what they earn - who's business is it? I accept stirking could affect us but they could just as easily be on 20K striking for 25K. Dont like your job?Feel underpaid? Get another one me-think.
I think that if the general public are affected by someone else's industrial action, which we are, very much so..and..the action is from petrol tanker drivers, which fits the remit for discussion in a motoring forum...then the subject matter is up for grabs.
The salary is relevant for me as an individual, to consider whether I do or do not feel they are hard done by. If i feel they are, then i might well be prepared to accept some pain, so that they might gain. If not, i obviously won't.
Market forces no doubt do play a big part..what happens if Hoyer would wish not to pay as much as what is being asked for and have considered those market forces, surely the employer and its' managers have a valid view as well as the drivers and the union.
To me what the earnings are does matter in an industrial dispute that affects the whole country..particularly as that is what the main issue for the dispute is
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>>>To me what the earnings are does matter in an industrial dispute that affects the whole >>>country..particularly as that is what the main issue for the dispute is
Why? Like I say, strike for an increase from 20K to 25K is the same as 31K to 36K? isnt it? If not why not?
>>>The salary is relevant for me as an individual, to consider whether I do or do not feel >>>they are hard done by. If i feel they are, then i might well be prepared to accept some >>>pain, so that they might gain. If not, i obviously won't
We're not the arbiter of whats fair or not. I could say you earn too much. Doesnt mean I'm right does it?(even if I knew) Thats down to your paymasters isnt it?
Whats your criterior for knowing how much they should be payed? If the petroleum supply industry is rolling in cash, why not pay very good salaries?
Its not for us to judge the level of salary these drivers get - how would we know?. Its a dip in Ocean in the vast sums connected to the oil industry.
I can understand the drivers being cheesed over the managements big rises and not theirs.
I just dont understand striking - call me a scab if you like but you generally lose more money in lost wages than you end up getting in rises.
I might be being unfair here, but these guys I suspect know that they are on a shall we say "an industry leading" salary and right about now is the best time ever to "kick off" about wages - hence the their need to generate the red herring over what pay would have been under Shell.
I have always worked under the understanding that I swop my time and skill for money. If I dont like the money I make a "request" for more. If that "request" is turned down and I still feel that I deserve/need more money then I buy the job papers.
If on the other hand, I felt that I wanted more but couldnt justify it, I'd just keep quiet and not bite the hand that feeds me.
These drivers have, it seems to me, picked their time to ask for more rather well considering national financial pain at the moment with fuel prices :-)
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I thought I read that these drivers have not had a pay rise since 199? something? A rise would seem to be in order.
People are out buying fuel because the Government has told them they don't need to. Since when have Gordon's boys known anything about anything? Get out and buy it if you think you need it!
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>>>>So you drive for a living then? Big deal - its a job like all others. I don't buy my sprouts from a 'professional' grocer or get my burgers from a 'professional' burger flipper!<<<<<
I can sell sprouts, I can flip burgers but I bet you can't stand a couple of days doing my job either professionally or unprofessionally!
Your comparisons make interesting reading and are a testament to how 'lowly' you class lorry drivers.
Come with me for a day ( it may well end up as a week though) and see it from the other side and then let me know what you think.
I'll guarantee that the first time you have to go backwards on to a bay it will suddenly be a 'big deal' :)
Pat
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pda,
be honest, do you think the sums being asked for by the shell tanker drivers are reasonable
from my layman's angle I think the haulage industry is a tough thankless job, mostly underpaid and this has been historically so..
but...some have been lucky enough to benefit from deals arranged many years ago and those deals are still fairly impressive compared to many...albeit over time they're gradually being watered down
surely, although some in the industry will naturally support other drivers through the human nature angle 'we're all in the same boat'...the reality is the poorly paid lorry drivers are nowhere near the salaries of the shell drivers... and it's not all down to the experience needed or danger factor
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I'll be interested to see what happens to wages when the glut of publicity about the 'easy money' in tanker trucking means that supply of drivers grows exponentially. in plumbing, which takes a lot longer to train for (I believe, although I may well be wrong, I've not examined it) the glut of people coming in drove wages right down. I wonder if the same will happen here?
I personally have no particular opinion, although the tanker drivers do seem to be to be pretty well paid when compared to other jobs that take far longer to train for, are far worse paid, and have far more responsibility - teachers, medical physicists and microbiologists for three that come to mind (I am none of the above just for reference)
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Westpig
No, in all honesty I don't think they are reasonable demands, but I admire their right to try and capitalise on an opportunity like this.
After all, who ever started bargaining from a low base?
Most of those Guys have the same background as I do, with just as many years of hard graft behind them on low wages, so how can anyone grudge them the chance to better themselves?
That type of work comes after a long, hard struggle, as does gordonbennets, and if there ever was an opportunity of 'the time being right' to go for more money, then this is it for them.
I applaud their opportunist streak, and their tenacity.
They will eventually settle for a couple of K a year, and that will just about keep them in line with inflation since their last rise.
Given the opportunity it's what we'd ALL do, whatever job we do.
I can't help feeling that it's come as something of a shock on here for people to learn that salaries like that exist for the 'lowly lorry driver', sadly they don't for us all, but that doesn't mean that skills such as they have shouldn't be recognised and reflected in their wages.
It's exactly the same as an enterprising salesman marketing his product, and succeeding.
Pat
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It's exactly the same as an enterprising salesman marketing his product and succeeding. Pat
With respect, its not. The salesman doesn't usually hold his customer as a hostage until he agrees to buy and the dosh is handed over.
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I personally have no particular opinion although the tanker drivers do seem to be to be pretty well paid when compared to other jobs that take far longer to train for are far worse paid and have far more responsibility - teachers medical physicists and microbiologists for three that come to mind (I am none of the above just for reference)
I quite agree. Study for years (probably getting into considerable debt to do so) then take on a very responsible job for half the money these guys are asking.
Some of the responses would have you believe a tanker driver requires higher levels of skill than an astronaut. At the end of the day its a driving job. I got my HGV in 1994 and subsequently did a fair number of 'charity runs' down to Romania and then the Balkans. Yes, its physically and mentally tiring (probably more than most realise) but at the end of the day its still a driving job. When you slam the cab door you walk away from it. I wouldn't want to do it everyday, but that has more to do with the boredom and frustration of British roads and traffic, rather than because its intrinsically a 'difficult' or 'hard' job.
I realise tanker driving is more demanding and specialised, but I don't accept that it is inherently dangerous. There are many 1000's of tanker drivers in the UK, how many get killed? I suspect that driving a breakdown truck is more dangerous, in fact being a teacher or social worker is probably more dangerous these days! Let's not 'over egg' the situation. Its a good old fashioned dispute from a bunch of workers who know they have a bit of muscle and can hit the general public where it hurts. They know that no-one's heard of 'Hoyer' so turn the attention to Shell in the hope that Shell lean on their subcontractors to put an early end to the dispute and make a settlement.
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I find it hard to believe that the tanker's are dangerous even if they crash. Otherwise why are they allowed on the road.
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When was the last time you saw a railway or canal, leading on to a garage forecourt?
Words fail me!
Pat
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I wasn't going to comment any more on this, but i am quite in awe of Pats (pda) contribution to the debate.
Remember Pat started doing this game when very few women truck drivers were around, she has surpassed more hurdles and trials than you could possibly imagine, it wasn't an easy life for tough blokes nearly 30 years ago, let alone a woman.
Thats not sexist or patronising, its an acknowlegment of somebody's commitment.
Does it annoy a few of you that Pat's not condemning the wage claims here.
(not surprised you're back on the road Pat, could you imagine having to work with such blinkered and superior views all the time, i tried it once too, couldn't stand 'em)
Anyway, what those of you who continue to belittle the skills and knowledge of these tanker drivers (but also reflects on other truck drivers) seem to have imprinted on your minds is that they are just drivers.
Emphatically no.
Let me perfectly candid, a chimpanzee could pilot a modern truck down a motorway, round a few roundabouts and into an industrial estate or supermarket delivery area.
Thats where most peoples knowledge or vision of truck operation ends, and where the truck drivers (especially the specialised) work begins.
Its the safe and competent operations of equipment handling, vehicle handling, safety and general awareness, and sometimes this can take years to accrue.
Its this knowledge and competency that earns the higher money.
Incidentally, unless you've driven a loaded vehicle carrying liquids, baffled or not, it does require a techique to start and stop and corner the vehicle in tune with the slosh or pendulum of the liquids, which of course varies with the viscosity of the fluids.
I like the idea that we should all go for the lowest common denominator with wage negotiations as well, or does that only apply to the manual working class.
Its always rankled white collar 'staff' when hard grafting men and women have, often by extremely hard work and long hours grossed more than they.
They have the answer, get off their backsides and do a bit of graft, get up at 4 instead of 7, finish at 7 instead of 5, etc.
Everybody who works for a living is equally important in my eyes, whatever sort of jobs they do, from the most filthy and demeaning to company leaders.
I do not include politicians or celebrities here.
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I realise like most that it is not going to be a simple task to drive a tanker full of liquid - the Tesco food run is not a liquid in a big tank. So I/we acknowledge skill is needed and we need them to be paid accordingly. But....
They are already paid a fair wage vs the national average. And lots of others should ALSO be paid more (police, nurses, fire services, paramedics, etc.) but where does the money come from?
In the case of the tanke drivers though, they work for hauliers that have contracts with the fuel companies. So if they need to be paid more their employer needs to renogotiate contracts and whatever we think that we cannot do or influence. And neither can the tanker drivers.
I'm not saying they shouldn't get more but their issue is with the employer and not Shell. Yes Shell has made big profits from "somewhere" in the business but they do not work for Shell. Now the next time the contract is up for renewal, what if someone else now wins and they are then all out of work? Remember they do not work for Shell.
Me I work for an IT company and if they get the pay they want I might retrain ;-) This years bonus has gone for various reasons (so crap pay again) and so might next years.
Rob
PS Diesel about 3-4pence/litre cheaper in Swindon today than in Stockport. No panic buying from me but I might refuel before I go home.
Edited by rtj70 on 16/06/2008 at 23:15
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Now the next time the contract is up for renewal what if someone else now wins and they are then all out of work?
They will most likely be 'TUPE'd over onto the next contractor.
Of course when the fuel runs out eventually they'll be up the creek, but i should imagine we all will be by then...bother no new cars to deliver either, have to get a proper job..:)
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AFAI am concerned, these tanker drivers are free to try and get as much as they think they are worth. But then in return, the employer should be free to try and get qualified professional drivers to work for him at a rate he thinks is enough to get them in the numbers he needs for his business.
The problem is the Union closed shop. As gordonbennet confirmed in a reply above " ... those lads stick together, and any new contractor would be obliged to take on the drivers, at the proper rates of pay too. Any new contractor turning up with other labour would be blacked, ... ". In other words this Union is still stuck in the "old" ways.
High time the employers took a stand and saw them off. let Hoyle and Suckling Transport do them what Eddie Shah did to the print unions. I say - go get them.
p.s. re the stories about these drivers not having had a pay rise for years is false. When they were transferred from Shell to the contractor, they took a pay cut in return for a lump sum payment. If they had invested the lump sum in an annuity, or even better bought Shell shares and taken the dividends, their total annual income over the period is much higher than the "basic" they claim they have now. On top of that, the value of their shares now would be a huge amount higher and still paying handsome dividends to add to their "insufficient" basic wage.
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... ". In other words this Union is still stuckin the "old" ways.
The TUPE regulations will apply whatever you may think of a union.
Are regulations and negotiations, including strike action, which is a legal and democratic part of negotiating not to apply when it suits?
Would the employer be classed as a bully if they tried to replace staff with cheap labour, or is that what you suggest he does.
By the way, what use would a union be if it didn't try to do what its members wanted?
And the unions didn't invent TUPE.
Edited by gordonbennet on 16/06/2008 at 23:47
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The TUPE regulations will apply whatever you may think of a union.
They will apply - more in breach than in compliance [ a la speed limits ].
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So driving a truck and being able to park it makes a professional?
Isn't that what the HGV license is for?
I drive 350 miles a week commuting, and I can reverse my car into a space = bingo, I'm a professional driver!
I don't hold truck drivers in contempt at all - they're just people out earning a living like us all, they just happen to sit in a cab instead of an office/shop etc.
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A couple of questions, or statements on this subject.
Firstly, once the fuel has been transported to the petrol station, this same "dangerous" fuel is then put under the care of someone who is most likely on minimum wage. Yes its put in a tank that is designed to be as safe as possible. He/She has a whole load of training that they should undertake including the multi check before authorising a sale etc. If something catches fire, they are most probably the ones that are going to be in charge! If its a supermarket, that cashier in the PFS will be on the same wage as the cashier in the shop scanning the messages.
My second point is to GordonBennett, and I will start by saying that I don't mean this to be inflammatory in any shape or form. But I am curious as to know how the Car Transporter driver is seen as being at the top end of the scale. Is it not just a load the same as a regular HGV but with a bit of extra driving (of cars on and off) thrown in? Surely once the trailer is loaded then it could be a supermarket artic you were driving, or is that the point? I would qualify this by saying I am sometimes amazed at the angles some cars are kept at on a transporter to maximise space, is this all done manually by the driver or is there safe limits that prevent an individual ramp being raised so high it crushes the car?
Just curious as I say and in means meant to be inflammatory.
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At the end of the day these guys will price themselves out of a job. I guess there are tanker drivers in Poland, Slovakia etc etc. and I don't hear of many big tanker explosions in those countries. If a big pay rise goes through what's the betting that in a few years time another (new) subcontractor will be doing the work using cheaper Polish imported labour who'll be thrilled to get £8/hour. Despite what gordonbennet says (and I applaud him for standing up for his colleagues) the skills required are not highly specialised, these are not fighter pilots or nuclear engineers, they are skills that can be acquired by someone of average ability (mental and physical) given aptitude, some training and experience.
I also find it strange that gb thinks that people 'look down' on drivers. I certainly don't, I just regard it as another job. Don't get an inferiority complex about it, gb.
As an aside, I work in a university, a job which is often thought to be 'cushy'. However, about 50% of university academic staff are on fixed term contracts these days (1-3 years length). If you don't do what is asked, meet whatever targets etc., then your contract is not renewed and you are out on your ear. If you look at science and engineering departments (my area) you will now find that the majority of these staff are from overseas, mainly India, Pakistan, China, Middle East. Competition for any job is incredibly tough, they are usually advertised 'world wide' and people from overseas are usually more than willing to accept low pay, which has kept pay down across the board.
The idea that 'white collar' jobs are always better paid and more secure than 'manual' jobs is out of date. I know many people with extremely high skill levels who would be highly delighted to have the pay and security of these tanker drivers. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but that's how it is.
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Hi BobbyG
The modern car transporter is a very complicated machine, and a very clever piece of engineering, it looks quite simple i know when one of the regular drivers (and yes there are a very few women and most are highly competent) loads probably 11 cars and vans/mpv's, ties them down and clears off sometimes 30 minutes later, but usually about an hour or so.
(by the way, don't tell anyone, but the best modern transporter bodies are made in Britain, some of the previous designs you see are over 20 years old and still going strong too)
I assure you it takes a very long time, years, to get to a competent stage, enough to see a line of vehicles, (usually going to several destinations, some of which will be able to be approached full height, some won't) and to know within a couple of minutes exactly how you're going to load and secure them, and yes all combinations and spacings between vehicles and decks is controlled by the driver, its all done by judgement, remember you have to allow for vehicle bounce, both truck and load, in the working out.
In the late 80's computerised vehicles were tried out, very expensive, prone to going wrong, obviously, and of course not capable of judging different combinations, they have all been scrapped as they were, but the bodies have been refitted with normal decking, and are back in use.
Remember, not all vehicles will fit on all decks.
As we've discussed often here, new vehicles replacing a model are usually bigger, and higher than the previous.
Whilst you are sorting the load out, you will be thinking of routes, undulating roads, trees, bridges, tight turns and many things.
These vehicles are very low to the ground, and high and maximum allowable length not including 4 or 5 ft of overhanging vehicle at each end, they cannot perform jack knife turns, and cannot negotiate poor surfaces very well, or turns where you approach down a hill and turn onto a road with a dip, they will ground out, and the cars may be crushed where the vehicle turns.
You have to tie the vehicles down with sympathy, but in such a way that they are safely secured, and allowing for vehicle bounce etc when setting decks etc.
Don't forget, you cannot leave keys in them, as many will self lock on route.
Driving the thing takes a lot of getting used to, these can be very unstable if not loaded with some idea of weight allocation, obviously they have a high centre of gravity, which varies with every load.
TBH i've waffled far too much and bored anyone daft enough to still be reading this to death.
I've only just touched on the subject, and haven't started on the driving aspect.
No, transporter drivers are not special, 99% of them were doing general haulage jobs, often for many years before they had the chance to change.
And don't worry if the money drops, every one of them will be in a supermarket truck having the easy life the next day, and someone else can have the hard filthy work that it is. (i've done that precise thing when things were rough).
Maybe some here would like to have a go.
You asked why they are at the top end of the pay scale, well most drivers have got more common sense, and avoid jobs like this altogether, of those that try it, i used to train a few on a previous company, and i reckon on average for every 20 drivers that start, half will have left before the first 2 weeks, maybe 2 out of the 20 will still be doing the job in a years time.
Many old time general haulage drivers have started in recent years on this game as some of the other work is being undervalued by 'outside' sourcing of generally poor but cheap staff, this of course is good as the quality of the drivers has improved IMO, mind you some of them (not incl me of course) are getting on a bit, but as they the old school truckers are used to a bit of graft, they can stay the course.
By the way not all transporter companies pay well, it beats me how they can attract drivers, but i think i know, as most drivers start with a not so well paid company, and use it to gain experience whilst trying to secure employment with the better ones.
This also benefits the good companies as they can get experienced staff.
Any mistakes on this job cost the company a heck of a lot of money, do you want a 50K car thats had a tree strike on the roof?
It would be nice if one of the fuel tanker drivers (even if from an unaffected company) could give a similar idea of whats involved in their job.
Qxman,
Its a fact, truck drivers have been treated as scum of the earth for years, pay a visit one day to a distribution centre/anywhere that recieves a fair amount of HGV traffic.
There will be a hatch often with a shatterproof window with speaking slot, if its not outside in the elements, it will be in a room which often doubles as a waiting area, which if used to keep animals would result in the imprisonment of people.
Drivers will be spoken to through this window with the politness reserved for child killers in many cases.
This is not the rantings of a nut case, though thats highly possible, it is the truth in many cases.
Pat (pda) will be able to enlighten you more to the joys of that game.
I bet you wished you hadn't asked, BobbyG..:)
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When my Mazda6 was delivered on a small two car transporter, I was surprised what even that involved to offload/reload. The big ones might go to mainly one destination (but I see VWs and Audis on some for example) but my car was the second.... so process was:
0. run through a handover of the Mondeo - check over vehicle and sign off any damage so he becomes responsible for anything new
1. off load the Astra going back
2. off load the Mazda6
3. load the Astra
4. load the Mondeo
5. run through a handover of the Mazda6
Oh and with inflation at 3.3-4.3% depending on the measure I hope the agreement was not too high for tanker drivers or inflation might go up more thus negating any rise they thought they had!
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GB, thanks for taking the time to do that, I found it very interesting reading. I often look on in awe when I see these transporters, with cars sitting at all different angles, a car on the very front overhanging the cab of the vehicle and seeing it take tight turns where I am just waiting for the car to strike something.....
I just assumed that the layout, angles etc would have been done by a computer or whatever, why I thought that I don't know, but I am all in favour of people getting paid for good old fashioned manual skill!
Many thanks again.
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Don't get me started gordonbennett!
Only today I delivered to a major supermarket RRU and found that H&S rules were verging on the ridiculous, but the ladies toilet was kept locked for their staff only, the DRIVERS toilet didn't flush and by the small, hadn't flushed for some time either.
We're not allowed to use their canteens as they are reserved for THEIR own lorry drivers.
I've been broken down at the side of the road and verbally abused by car drivers because they've been held up for a few minutes, despite me being delayed for hours by no fault of my own .
I've been told that I have to hand my keys in, sit in a waiting room for hours AND drop my trailer off on the bay because I'm not trusted NOT to drive off the bay whilst they are unloading me WITHOUT the keys???
Then again..........I watch the dawn break on a summers morning and it's just me and the wildlife who share the road ahead, and all's right with the world again!
Pat
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Thanks for the insight into Transporter driving GB. You have my greatest respect being able to handle one of those things on a day by day basis..
All the Best!
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being ableto handle one of those things on a day by day basis..
Hang on O Great Oily One,
I make no claim to be any good at the job, just bumble along against all the odds with only one ambition....to go home safely every night to my lovely girl, accident and incident free. I hope it wasnt too boring, don't want to cause lots of the BR AA team to fall off the wagon...clink..:)
Kind of threw my toys out of the pram over this thread a bit, i think i'd better keep a low profile for a while, hopefully haven't upset anyone.
Bet the OP has enjoyed throwing that big wooden spoon in..
(actually one chap i refused to train, because he was useless, and couldn't drive a truck at all let alone a transporter, my terminoligy at the time is best forgotten,
was trained by my employer of that time against all my objections. One month later he smashed a fully loaded transporter into a railway bridge not far from you, IIRC Main A road from Donny to Wakefield about 8 years ago?) Did i say told you so....no, but he did to be fair.:)
Kind regards GB
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42K a year is very good money indeed. I have absolutely no sympathy for these guys. They should thank their lucky stars. Think about haulage drivers and firms over here and the threat they are under because of the price of fuel, something that they have made worse. They should be ashamed.
Edited by Mattbod on 18/06/2008 at 23:49
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Mattbod,
The fuel is the same price within an ounce or two all over europe, its the tax on UK derv which is killing off the UK haulage industry, and the final nail this month when the cabotage rules change (not as some have been taking any notice previously)
I wouldn't mind £42K basic either, i presume that is whats meant with these figures.
Edited by gordonbennet on 19/06/2008 at 00:05
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"IIRC Main A road from Donny to Wakefield about 8 years ago?) "
Know the bridge well.. Its a well known HGV trap and I think I can remember the accident on local TV.
I`ve driven an Artic on a learners license in around 1974, by the way..
;)
Edited by oilrag on 19/06/2008 at 09:51
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I wouldn't mind £42K basic either i presume that is whats meant with these figures.
And if "basic" means "excluding overtime" I would be doubly pleased. My final employer expected unpaid overtime ~ and got it. If you didn't do unpaid overtime your salary didn't go up anywhere near as fast as for those who did do unpaid overtime. We were allowed to be a member of a trade union but our employer wouldn't negotiate with (or even talk to) them.
Edited by L'escargot on 19/06/2008 at 10:43
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>> I would be doubly pleased. My final employer expected unpaid overtime
Too right. Its amazing how many of those nice clean '9 to 5' jobs carry an expectation of a shedload of free overtime.
I used to work for a US engineering company developing equipment for the oil and gas industry. It was supposedly '9-5' but I soon realised there was an 'expectation' that no one left before 7pm and if the the schedule was a bit tight then 9 or 10pm, with no extra money of course. This was in an airless open-plan office with no windows! I was glad to leave that place.
Interesting how times change though. My dad was a lorry driver. He started on the lorries not long after the war, carting stone for road building etc. Then he got a job with Pickfords Heavy Haulage. He used to drive those massive low loaders during the 1970's. Although that was supposedly the time of the 'powerful unions' he never seemed to earn much. We had a very basic lifestyle despite him working six and half days a week, often away overnight. He never considered himself to be some kind of highly skilled superhero either, he just got on with the job.
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Its strange how the thought of working class lads earning hgh wages enrages people. However nobody compares this with a Solicitor for example charging £100 plus for dictating a ten minute letter, or a Dentist extracting ! £50.00 from you for filling a tooth.
Or MPs for fixing their own pay, pensions and expenses.
Is it envy or the class system which dictates that workers should not get above themselves.
wemyss
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Its strange how the thought of working class lads earning hgh wages enrages people.
. However nobody compares this with a Solicitor for example charging £100 plus for dictating a ten minute letter, or a Dentist extracting ! £50.00 from you for filling a tooth.
I don't think most people do actually - I certainly don't begrudge. What can be vexxing though is most solicitors & dentists (to use your example) don't go on strike when they can't get the final few % on a pay deal, or attempt to stop others doing legal work or tooth-pulling to get their way. I'm not sure either, whether lorry drivers have to pay secretaries, dental nurses et al & run high street offices & surgeries - perhaps though, you can enlighten?
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What can be vexxing though is most solicitors & dentists (to use your example) don't go on strike when they can't get the final few % on a pay deal or attempt to stop others doing legal work or tooth-pulling to get their way.
They don't need to strike though do they? They just decide a rate and we have to pay up. I gather that British dentistry is now the most expensive in Europe. My daughter has been quoted £2500 for braces! Unfortunately our family seem to be locked into private dentistry (dentists don't want to do NHS work because private pays so much better). Our dentist used to work 5 days a week. Then as he increased his rates it dropped to four days and now he only works 3 days a week.
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difference with a dentist or a solicitor is that you are directly their client and as such you have the right to withhold payment should the job they do for you not be up to either standard or expectation (i would advise you be very sure of this before trying to withold payment) i myself have with out any comeback withheld money from a solicitor because i didnt feel they had done their best by me, could i go into a petrol station and demand a free tank of fuel if their delivery is late or im delayed in my journey because the station is closed (as some do) because of a delivery the answer is no.........its the lack of accountabillity of the tanker drivers recieving an excessive wage that irk's people not nessecaryily the amount they get
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also the major difference is at least three years of University and another two to three years of gaining professional qualifications whilst working for lower pay.
Oh and don't think the average solicitor sees all that hourly rate..(unless they own the business)...
Apples and Oranges my friend....
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Just off for a walk today in our lovely Peak District. As I walk past the huge house and gardens of one of our County Council honcho's along the side of the river (fact). And perhaps even the retired ex CEO of a failed bank who is having to exist on his meagre pay out and pension taken from workers savings.(mythical) it will give me time to reflect.
However Ben...Who paid for the three years at University ?. Could some of it be from the lads who left school and had to work for a living and they wouldnt be tanker drivers at that age.
Oh...and before I go. Our dentist in town who isnt a very good one has two exotic Italian sports cars in his drive and his hobby is racing his competition cars.
Ordinary working men shouldnt aspire to these standards and should recognise how much we owe to these people?.
wemyss
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The last time I looked education is free until 18...and now students have to get themselves into 20k of hock before they can start earning....
Pretty big risk therefore it should pay out a good reward if it all pans out..
If a dentist (in your opinion) isn't very good then how does he make all this money? Maybe he inherited money, invested well or is just lucky..
As I said it's too many variables before you can make sweeping statements...all I can advance is an argument that earning a high salary does take sacrifices and these jobs aren't only 9-5.
In fact I can state that me and my colleagues work an average 50 hour week and get paid for 35/37.5.
Still why let the facts get in the way of a good old rant....
Benjurs 'comprehensively schooled, night school for A levels and 4 years getting a degree part & full time whilst working'
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..its the lack ofaccountabillity of the tanker drivers recieving an excessive wage that irk's people not nessecaryily the amount they get
Who decides what is excessive? Surly it is the market that decides this, not an individual. If the market could not stand the increase then there would be no increase, if the market could not sustain their levels of pay then they would all be out of work, or working for less.
The Shell drivers are a drop in the ocean of total number of tanker drivers in the country, go and ask the others what they get paid? They don't seem to be striking or asking for more money, which suggests that they are already on the higher wage, so the Shell drivers may well have just been trying to get the market rate for their job.
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>>>In fact I can state that me and my colleagues work an average 50 hour week and get paid for 35/37.5.<<<
And what does the hourly rate work out for 50 hours then?
Regarding the animosity about the increase for tanker drivers, I think there is just a lot of Shell shareholders on here who can see their usual dividend reducing from now on!
Pat
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well Pat as you asked
£20 p/h for a 50hr week vs £21 p/h for £42k divided by 52 and 37.5 for these tankers....
Yes I can qualify for a 20%-30% bonus if we make target.....not likely for the next few years
Still I suppose that's all my fault for getting off my backside and effectivley living like a pauper for 4 years at Uni.....
I'm not begruding the market, it pays what it pays but don't come all us and them and how we must be born with a silver spoon etc.
My market rate is set the same as any other worker....my job has slightly higher barriers to entry (a degree) than yours hence the difference..
not trying to start a fight but let's agree that people are paid what they accept to be a fair wages else they would do something else.....I'd love to be paid more (wouldn't everyone?) but the salaries are just the same elsewhere and unless I want a job that racks in 80+ hours a week I can't earn much more......
Work, Life, Balance I think they call it......
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Benjurs
I'm sorry you had struggle for so long to qualify, but you had the choice to take and complete the course or not, some people either didn't have the opportunity or maybe their choices in life meant they had to provide as relative youngsters for their family, maybe they dropped out of school for a myriad of reasons.
Because someone hasn't been through university doesn't always mean that they are not decent and worthwhile people in their own right.
I didn't think that Pat had made any reference to any percieved advantage to be gained by someone's social standing in her posts, but hey i'm wrong most of the time.
anyway..
For one thing, these wage figures quoted for the tanker drivers will be including any extra payments,,eg overtime, shift allowance, any bonus's etc.
I'm maybe paid similarly to the tanker boys, its took me some 20 years and some luck to get to the best type of companies, you could call those 20 years my qualifying period..:)
If i worked a normal houred week, then for one thing the job would not get done, secondly the company would not survive (you cannot operate a car transporter for less than 12 or more hours a day economically), and thirdly my wages would be very poor.
Before anyone says we should be running the vehicles 24 hour, many are, but those on RDC work delivering to dealerships don't really work out that way.
When high wages are quoted for manual work, be very assured of one thing, hard graft is the only reason those wages are paid.
Truck drivers are in a position where their work performance is monitorable and costed presicely on an individual basis, providers of haulage in this country have to be competitive in cost but also in service and performance, to get the better staff its necessary to pay the better wage.
You seem to be working for 50 hours (but only have to do 37.5) with probably a decent salary, good for you, but you shouldn't begrudge others who by working the extra 20 hours or so more can probably equal your salary.
Maybe i do equal yours, i don't know and don't want to, i maybe have to work harder and for much longer, its my own penance for not trying harder at school and for making wrong decisions when younger, i make no complaints, its life.
Most weeks i will have done 37.5 hours or more by Wednesday night.
Its a great pity no tanker driver involved has really given a breakdown of their job, not as its any of our business, but a bit of good PR could have been gained, its quite obvious they wouldn't get a fair hearing from the media (who does these days, but many still believe the media is unbiased) so they should have argued their case on forums such as these, at least the internet does give some freedom of speech, at the moment.
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