If a tree falls over in a forest... - Lounge Lizard
...does it make a sound?

Suppose you were driving up to a junction with traffic-lights. As you drive up to the traffic-lights, you see that they have turned red.

However, this is a junction with which you are very familiar, there is unobstructed vision for a long way along all the roads, weather is perfect visibility, and there are no other cars anywhere near the junction. There are no cameras or cops anywhere near.

What would you do?

Would you jump the lights?

Or would you stop and wait until they have turned green?

Personally, I would jump the lights. This is because laws are blunt instruments and not always the absolute decider of what is morally right. I am well aware of the law requiring me to stop at a red light; but, in this situation, it is morally acceptable to act above the law.



If a tree falls over in a forest... - the quiet man
In your opiniopn
If a tree falls over in a forest... - the quiet man
opinion {you had 4 mins left in which you could have used your edit key - just a thought}

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 02/06/2008 at 02:09

If a tree falls over in a forest... - welshlad
and what would you say to the pedestrian that runs out into the road from nowhere because the little man was green
If a tree falls over in a forest... - billy25
many many times we have roadworks on our rural roads, most of which are on "straight" stretches, a lot of them are less than 100yds in length, and you can see "for miles" that nothing is even moving in the vicinity, and even at 5.30am when i've been (used to be) going to work, the number of folk that would stop at the red-light is unbelievable! - Once I came upon such a "set-up" with about 5 cars queued up, needless to say I sailed past the lot, and when I looked back, the leader of the queue couldnt move because everyone else was following me through and he was boxed in!.

Billy
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Garethj
and what would you say to the pedestrian that runs out into the road from
nowhere because the little man was green


From nowhere? People always come from somewhere, shirley?

I wait unless I'm completely sure there's nobody else around, this means I've done it about twice in the last 20 years!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - scotty
Nice try - get real
If a tree falls over in a forest... - MichaelR
Absolutely not. Unlike speeding there is no grey area with red lights.

Red means stop. It's really that simple. Yes its annoying but lots of things in life are.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - JohnPug
With the rising cost of fuel, I would go through a red.

There is a set of lights near where I work, and lots of people jump the lights when turning left.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Ian (Cape Town)
In the land of sunshine and hijacking, if the lights are red as i approach i slow down to 25km/h ish, and cruise up to the lights (known as 'robots' here, by the way). If it is still red, and i've checked the approaching lanes, I go through carefully.
Likewise, on quiet roads, even though the light is green for me, I make sure there's nobody adopting the 'there's nothing about at this time of night' philosophy, and likely to T-bone me!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Round The Bend
You cannot select the laws/rules that you wish to obey, treating the regulations like a restaurant menu!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Pugugly
If an NIP falls through your letter box......?

You never know who or what may be watching.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - b308
Shame we don't have those flashing ambers like they do on the Continent and the US. Until then I'd stop and relax....
If a tree falls over in a forest... - George Porge
Blimey, with so many jumping red lights the next time I approach a set of lights on green I'll stop and check its safe to proceed...........

Laws are obviously for everyone else then?
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Pugugly
......little people you'll find. Animal Farm had a take on it.

Edited by Pugugly on 02/06/2008 at 09:39

If a tree falls over in a forest... - Peter D
You clearly do not know the Law, you say "I am well aware of the law requiring me to stop at a red light" No you have to stop at an amber light unless unsafe to do so. In addition you are 'crazy'. Regards Peter
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Ian (Cape Town)
>>No you have to stop at
an amber light unless unsafe to do so. >>


Locally: flashing red = Same as a 'stop' sign. flashing amber means same as a 'give way' sign - proceed, but with caution.
Both used in conjunction in off-peak hours.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - ijws15
Blimey with so many jumping red lights the next time I approach a set of
lights on green I'll stop and check its safe to proceed...........

And one of these selfish idiots that drives through red lights will be behind you, wont be expecting you to stop at the green light, and will drive straight into the back of you!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Bill Payer
With the rising cost of fuel I would go through a red.

I've long thought that the light sequence is fast cycled on many, what should be fast flowing, roads UK in order to ensure that every vehicle has to stop - the waste of fuel must be enormous.

There is a set of lights near where I work and lots of people jump
the lights when turning left.

I do that at certain junctions that I know well - the US system of turning right on red works fine, there's often no reason why it couldn't be done here.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Pugugly
Apart from reducing the risk of three points on one's licence !
If a tree falls over in a forest... - b308
the US system of
turning right on red works fine there's often no reason why it couldn't be done
here.


Again something done in Europe! But pedestrians crossing still have priority!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Pugugly
So would any of you overtake on double white lines if you could see that the road ahead was clear ?
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Statistical outlier
So would any of you overtake on double white lines if you could see that
the road ahead was clear ?


No, I'd assume that there was something (dip, hidden entrance) I didn't know about that justified them. And I hear that crossing solid whites is something that the coppers / CPS never let you off.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - oldnotbold
Do the temporary roadworks traffic lights have the same standing in law as permanent ones? Clearly jumping them could be dangerous, but if no danger exists, is it still an offence?
If a tree falls over in a forest... - drivewell
At the end of the day, the presenting problem is one of what we do at traffic lights, but the underlying issue is our attitude toward the law.

As was said only a week or two ago on this forum: "If you don't know the law, then buy a copy of the Highway Code. If you don't like what the law says, then become a politician and lobby to get it changed" (or words to that effect).

However, to pick and choose what part of the law we will obey in any given circumstance is a first step toward anarchy. Democracy, government and the rule of law may not be perfect (especially when others don't think the same way as you do ;-) ), but it is by far preferable to a society where everyone does what seems right in their own eyes.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - L'escargot
The OP is clearly always on the look-out for ways to circumnavigate the law. This is one of his previous posts:-

"My 1992 Volvo 240SE has just failed it's MOT on one point only:

Front passenger seat cannot be secured in the upright position. [6.2.3]

What can I do about this? ..............

(3) If I took the car elsewhere for an MOT test then is there a reasonable chance of it passing? The seat doesn't look too bad to me, .........

(4) Could I remove the front seat for the MOT test?"

If a tree falls over in a forest... - Hamsafar
I go through the red ones a lot these days, these are the newer sets installed as delay gates, or rephased to turn red to every approaching vehicle to help the case for congestion charging and just general spite. Obviously I only do this when there are no other cars around. e.g. there is a junction in the countryside where you can see in all directions for about a mile, I treat them as part-time signals. Is the crime against CO2 greater than slipping past a red light? One would think so, given the relentless propaganda to the former.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - L'escargot
slipping past a red light?


Don't try and trivialise it by saying slipping past a red light.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Ian (Cape Town)
The biggest danger of the 'there's nothing coming' attitude is that one day there WILL be something coming, but you've lapsed into a comfort zone.
There's a set of lights outseide our local fire brigade. I pass them twice a day. They are NEVER red.
But guess who many nose-to-tail smashes have taken place at those lights?
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Clanger
but in this situation it is
morally acceptable to act above the law.


I don't agree; I would stop because that's what's supposed to happen at a red light. There will be people on here encouraging us to break the speed limit or park on double yellows next. It's just another step towards anarchy and the total destruction of life as we know it.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Hamsafar
"Do the temporary roadworks traffic lights have the same standing in law as permanent ones? Clearly jumping them could be dangerous, but if no danger exists, is it still an offence?"

Yes, since about 10 years ago, before that no, as there was no stop line.
Now you have to stop before a red sign.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Bill Payer
"Do the temporary roadworks traffic lights have the same standing in law as permanent ones?

Yes since about 10 years ago before that no as there was no stop line.


Really? A colleague while I was at a company that I left 21yrs ago got done for that - the car at the other end flashed him so he set off, not realising there was a police car behind him! It sticks in my mind (maybe incorrectly) that it was abreach of the "automatic traffic signals" regulations.

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 02/06/2008 at 13:36

If a tree falls over in a forest... - craig-pd130
Yep, I've gone through reds at temp lights at roadworks, and crossed double whites. But only when I can see that there is no other traffic approaching, and importantly, no RISK of any other traffic approaching.

Being on a motorbike gives one an infinitely better view of hazards.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - bathtub tom
Any cyclists here like to 'fess up? ;>)
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Westpig
with double white lines... there used to be a time when you could trust the road planners and they were very much there for a reason e.g. covering a hidden dip, hidden entrance etc

nowadays, with the intervention of the nanny state, there are vast tracts of the things, which if you're on a m/c or driving a powerful car up behind something exceptionally slow like a tractor can be most frustrating

still don't think it's a good idea to ignore them though, although i do think there should be a review of their usage, so that they are only placed when they should be.

one more thing, could car drivers in this country, move over left a bit, to let m/c's past when they're in a queue, so that the bike doesn't have to cross the white lines, car driver's in other countries manage it, why not here.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Ed V
I think the world we now live in impacts what people do.

We so expect to "be done" as drivers that we dare not do other than obey. The only time I'm ever likely to meet Plod, really or metaphorically, is driving, so I must just do what I'm told; speed cameras everywhere; lights, gantry signs, temporary limits, no parking, waiting, red line no stopping, white road stripes, permit holders only, - you name it we have it.

Result? If anything does go wrong it's someone else's fault, no personal responsibility.

Cross a junction when it's clear to do so, forget it; it's when you are allowed to do so nowadays.

Right or wrong?

Either way, profoundly depressing. It does seem amazing to me that we have in a period of a few years created around 15 million new criminals.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - George Porge
It would be interesting if all who've posted would indicate if they were NCB protected or not and which side of the fence they sit, does having protected NCB make you take more risks?

EG; stop on red / protected NCD

Dox; stop on red, not protected NCD.


If a tree falls over in a forest... - drivewell
with double white lines... ....behind something exceptionally
slow like a tractor can be most frustrating. I thought the speed of vehicle you were allowed to cross 'double whites' to pass was 20mph. - But see below - it's 10mph

Highway Code Rule 129

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.


[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26]
If a tree falls over in a forest... - b308
one more thing could car drivers in this country move over left a bit to
let m/c's past when they're in a queue so that the bike doesn't have to
cross the white lines car driver's in other countries manage it why not here.


I do if I see one coming, but tend to stay in the middle of a single carriageway as if I go to the left to let a m/c past I end up blocking the push bike who's coming up the inside! Can't win really!!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - welshlad
i just saw a prime example of what jumping a red light can do i was driving though a village with temp traffic lights in the middle women jumps the lights at one end while about 10 of us were streaming though from the otherside. Result she hit the car two in front of mine head on while the rest of us were stuck there for 10 minetes whilst the guys that had joined the que from the green light reversed enough to let us all back up to before the now red light as there was no other way round. was it worth not waiting 2-3 minetes at a red, seeing as now 2 peoples cars are damaged no doubt an insurance job and the inconvience of it all to everyone who happened to be there when this idiot decided the rules didnt apply to her.

the icing on the cake for me was that she was the first o start shouting at the other driver for the damage to HER car!!!

Edited by welshlad on 02/06/2008 at 20:54

If a tree falls over in a forest... - PhilW
"This is because laws are blunt instruments and not always the absolute decider of what is morally right. I am well aware of the law requiring me to stop at a red light; but, in this situation, it is morally acceptable to act above the law."

- is everyone allowed to decide whether or not which laws are "morally right"?
I think present levels of tax on fuel is "morally wrong", and the tax on my little cigars and my bottle of red, and the amount my brother had to pay to the wife who walked out on him and the kids, and the amount we pay towards "National Insurance" yet my wife will get "pink fluffy dice" all when she retires but if she was a single 16 year old unemployed, unmarried mother would get this that and the other, and if was an MP I would be able to claim thousands of poundsworth of expenses without a receipt ........ and why should I keep left on the road when driving on the right might mean quicker progress, and zebra crossings - why should I stop when a pedestrian is waiting to cross, and double yellow lines - you mean the ones outside the paper shop or the chip shop? Why should I wait for my paper, or chips? Why should I stick to 20 mph outside a school when no kid is visible???? Why should I stop when that lollipop lady holds up her lollipop?

but laws are laws - a red light means STOP - there is no excuse - STOP! And if you don't and cause an accident - I have no sympathy. Go ahead and cross red lights - but please don't do it while I'm coming the other way and assumed that my green light meant GO

Edited by Webmaster on 04/06/2008 at 14:14

If a tree falls over in a forest... - Lud
I am not disagreeing with the tenor of yr post PhilW, but I was taught that a green light meant 'proceed if it is safe to do so'. You are supposed to see the crazed red light crasher coming, and try not to run into them.

I doubt that there are many here over the age of say 35 who have never, ever squeaked through a red light. I have often done it myself, but always with due caution and never with damaging or even fraught results. It's getting harder to get away with though. I believe I still have three points from a camera at the Angel junction...
If a tree falls over in a forest... - PhilW
"a green light meant 'proceed if it is safe to do so'."

Maybe that is why at French temporary traffic lights they don't have a green light - it's a flashing orange which is clearly "proceed if it is safe to do so" - here we have "green", which may be "proceed if it is safe to do so" but which most (all?) read as "GO".
Whatever, (trendy aren't I?) - to most of us, red means STOP!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - CGNorwich
I suspect that those who chose to ignore whatever part of the law does't suit them will be very quick to use that same law if they are injured or their property damaged by a law breaker.

I doubt that they would accept the excuse from a red light jumper that whilst they knew they were breaking the law it was OK because in the circumstances they thought it morally right.





If a tree falls over in a forest... - Lud
Morality doesn't have much to do with running red lights. It is a deliberate or accidental infraction of an absolute law and may may result in a penalty. It follows that if an accident occurs as a result all or most of the blame will naturally fall on the driver who has gone through the red light.

I suppose you might say that someone in this position would be behaving immorally if they tried to shift blame away from themselves by lying and attempting to smear third parties.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - PhilW
Lud,
quite
Phil
If a tree falls over in a forest... - normd2
my brother had his car written off by a taxi running a red light at 3:30 one morning - the taxi driver said '...but no-one comes along here at this time of night...'
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Ben 10
"one more thing, could car drivers in this country, move over left a bit, to let m/c's past when they're in a queue, so that the bike doesn't have to cross the white lines, car driver's in other countries manage it, why not here."

Yes, I do this on numerous occasions but on narrow roads you then block the near side for cyclists. Especially in London, you are overtaken n/s by cyclists and o/s by m/cs. Us car drivers can't win. I suggest as a m/c you drive within the lines and adhere to the rules that we should all abide by. What gives you preferential treatment.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Viewer
I just had to comment in reply to some of the opinions here. What if a traffic cop pulled up a car for a spot check, slipped some drugs in the boot, and arrested the driver for possession? A no-no? What about if he broke a tail light? Still a no-no? OK, so what if he lay down a temporary speed limit sign and then "caught" a lot of drivers speeding? Still a no-no? What if just forgot to put a temporary sign up? Or left the camera set to the roadworks limit when it had been removed? What about only refunding fines, removing points and reinstating licenses only to those who had spotted the con and complained? All done. All choosing whether to obey the law, where, and when.

How about all those cases where the police "have" to respond to a complaint. Like when a kid complains that a householder "abused" them for vandalising their property? But they managed not to respond to the householder's complaints of criminal damage and threats for months. And if the question why is asked, the householder had no evidence. Well, only their own word for it and the damage. Strange that that counts for nought, but the word of a kid is enough to get out half a dozen panda's and even a SWAT team! Did someone mention you can't interpret the law the way you want to?

Some people like to trot out the term "Rule of law", thinking it means YOU have to obey the law. Sorry, no, it doesn't: it means that THEY have to obey the law. And not only that, the law has to be fair and reasonable, and not passed on a whim. And it needs to be passed, and enforced, with the consent of the public.

But what we have today is ridiculous, unfair, unjust, arbitrary laws, passed on a whim, and ignored or misused as the powers that be see fit. The Rule Of Law ended years ago. So the public no longer have a responsibility to obey "The Law".

What all decent people have is a responsibility to do the right think according to natural justice. When the Rule Of Law breaks down, that often means doing the opposite of what "The Law" says!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - drivewell
Speechless......

'Viewer', would you care to comment on how your final three paragraphs differ from an essential anarchism?

Because what you propose sure sounds like anarchy to me.

I'm sorry, but I still believe in law and order - and I am not a police officer, a lawyer, or a member of the judiciary.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Viewer
They don't. That's my point. It's irrelevant what you believe in if that's not what you've got.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Ian (Cape Town)
One small step becomes a big step.
On our lawless roads, where 50% - YES 50%!!! - of drivers have either NO license or a fraudulently-obtained one, the biggest probelm is that this anarchaic attitude is creeping in.
For example...
#1 people know that they can drive for months without a license plate, as there are rarely police visible on the roads.
So it is better to drive plateless, risking a R500 fine IF they get caught - about 35 quid - than to get lots of camera fines!
#2 anyone who gets caught doing anything automatically belats "but what about the taxies"- referring to our lawless thug minbus taxi industry, which gets away with automotive murder. This becomes the attitude - if THEY can do it, I can do it - so we have situations, for example, where NOBODY stops at a stop sign, everyone just breezes throuigh, because... everyone else does it.
My daughter's school has FIVE No U-turn signs in the space of 100m outside it.
Every day, I see about 15 Mummies and daddies making U-turns. And if, as has happened, teachers complain to said parent, they get 'but what about the taxis'?...


If a tree falls over in a forest... - oilrag
"The Rule Of Law ended years ago. So the public no longer have a responsibility to obey "The Law"."

Something to remember Viewer, if anyone shunts you up the rear and they didn`t believe in having insurance ;)



Edited by oilrag on 03/06/2008 at 08:50

If a tree falls over in a forest... - b308
What really concerns me is that people actually think that stopping at a red light is optional - I've been hit by a red light runner and it wasn't pleasent - for those of you who think that its ok, please go and find another country to drive in....
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Viewer
>> "The Rule Of Law ended years ago. So the public no longer have a responsibility to obey "The Law"."

Something to remember Viewer if anyone shunts you up the rear and they didn`t believe in having insurance ;)



Why, Oilrag? You shouldn't shoot the messenger if you don't like the message. Especially if you haven't actually bothered to read it first!

Note I said " "The Law" ", ie in quotes. ie the arbitrary and unjust edicts of the bureacracy. I did say that people had a duty to do the right thing though, didn't I?

For example, I don't think that people have a legal duty to not have their bin lids open four inches because some fly-tipper stuffed some rubbish in it. Or because the bin men didn't bother collecting the previous fortnight. But I do think they have a moral duty to take in their neighbour's bin because the neighbour had the audacity to work for a living, or, shock, horror, dared to take a couple of days off for a break around Bin "Day".
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Viewer
Speechless......

'Viewer', would you care to comment on how your final three paragraphs differ from an essential anarchism?

Because what you propose sure sounds like anarchy to me.

I'm sorry, but I still believe in law and order - and I am not a police officer, a lawyer, or a member of the judiciary.


By the way, drivewell, I note you didn't care (dare?) to comment on my first two paragraphs!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - drivewell
By the way drivewell I note you didn't care (dare?) to comment on my first
two paragraphs!


Not a case of 'caring' or 'daring'. First paragraph deals with conspiracy. I don't think any of the examples you list are common enough for us to use them as a reason to disobey the law. Any police officer guilty of conspiracy is likely to receive a tougher than average sentence.

Your second paragraph again addresses issues which I admit happen from time to time. I still do not, however, believe that the failures of others gives us justification to break the law ourselves.

Law-keeping is, to my mind, a foundational principle of living in society. Cultures who have abandoned an objective law code have often declined rapidly into social disorder.

I have no desire to see this happen in the UK (nor do I have any desire to pursue this particular debate any further)
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Westpig
I suggest as a m/c you drive within the lines and adhere to the rules that we should all abide by. What gives you preferential treatment.
>>

I'm talking about a big queue of traffic for whatever reason, not necessarily in a built up area, which let's face it doesn't often have double white lines... and a bike trying to get to the head of the queue by filtering (which they're perfectly entitled to do and is one of the benefits of a bike).

A car driver stuck there anyway, can often with minimum fuss facilitate the progress of a bike if they wished to, but many don't with the thought process no doubt of 'what gives you preferential treatment'...(in other words sheer selfishness).

Why do most drivers on the continent and particularly France actively go out of their way to let a bike past..whereas here you can often get the total opposite?

If i was intent on breaking the rules i wouldn't be submitting a post asking car drivers to move over a bit..i'd be overtaking over the white lines wouldn't I.

p.s. i.m a car driver 99.9% of the time, last year only did 600 miles on the bike
If a tree falls over in a forest... - George Porge
You're entitled to overtake on double white lines if its safe to do so providing the target vehicles speed is less than 15MPH
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Bill Payer
You're entitled to overtake on double white lines if its safe to do so providing
the target vehicles speed is less than 15MPH

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing:

"Rule 129

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26]"
If a tree falls over in a forest... - George Porge
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing:

. You may cross the line if necessary provided the road is
clear to pass a stationary vehicle or overtake a pedal cycle horse or road maintenance
vehicle if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.
[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26]"


Thanks for the correction BP, however I doubt anyone could tell the speed differential between 10 and 15MPH of a cycle when driving at the national speed limit.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Lud
But the cyclist would probably notice Dox blasting past at 60 without crossing the double whites too far...

:o}
If a tree falls over in a forest... - George Porge
I slow down for horses though Lud ;o)
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Bill Payer
Thanks for the correction BP however I doubt anyone could tell the speed differential
between 10 and 15MPH of a cycle when driving at the national speed limit.

No, but it's not going to be helpful if you get pulled and start insisting that it's 15MPH.

Probably more important is that the definition of what you can overtake is much more limited than "vehicle".
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Westpig
I understand that queueing vehicles fit into a grey area as to whether or not they are 'stationary'. i.e. they are temporarily stopped in traffic, but not parked.

I think that part of the legislation was designed for parked or broken down vehicles, not someone held temporarily in a queue....and don't fancy being the test case with 3 points hanging over my head.

Maybe PU can add his thoughts.

If a tree falls over in a forest... - Lounge Lizard
Here is a link (GoogleMaps) to an example of a right turn with traffic-lights; where I am suggesting that it is morally acceptable to act above the law and drive through the lights on red:

tinyurl.com/4v2j39

Suppose you are travelling from the M56 (Junction 14) along the A5117 and are turning right into Ince Lane. There are traffic-lights on this right-turn.

The volume of traffic on this road varies greatly over the day: ranging from 'completely empty' to 'heavily congested'. I am only suggesting jumping the red light when the road is 'completely empty' and in perfect visibility.

Notice that you can see up the road (A5117) for several hundred metres. In your mirror, you can see back (down the A5117) to the M56 J14 roundabout to check for cops. You can also see up Ince Lane - not that that is significant. There are no bushes or other obstacles around the junction that could conceal unsuspecting pedestrians. There are no buildings in the area.

I would ask anyone who disagrees: What loss could arise from this particular act?





Edited by Lounge Lizard on 04/06/2008 at 00:28

If a tree falls over in a forest... - Lud
it is morally acceptable to act above the law and drive
through the lights on red:


Do you mean practical, sensible and not dangerous?

Morality has nothing to do with any of this for goodness' sake.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - PhilW
"it is morally acceptable to act above the law and drive through the lights on red:"

a bit like me driving around with no insurance - what loss could possibly arise - well none unless I make a misjudgement and run someone over - just like you ignoring the red light - no loss until you get it wrong and some poor innocent suffers from you thinking you are so perfect that the law doesn't apply to you.
I am comprehensively insured.
And, by the way, my car seems OK at the moment - don't think I'll bother with an MOT. And I drove past a school today - no kids visible so I ignored the 20mph limit and cranked it up to 90. No cops visible either - so I got away with it. Felt so good I rang my wife on the mobile to tell her - no cops so got away with it. What loss arose? None. Nipping down to the pub now, might sink half a dozen pints and drive back - quiet country roads, never any cops, shouldn't be too many other motorists around, or pedestrians - now what loss can arise from that? Especially since I think (and that's what counts) that it is morally acceptable to get plastered and then drive home. Might change my mind about that if I hit a tree and kill myself - until then I am above the law or at least those laws I disagree with.

Lounge Lizard, your post is totally morally indefensible.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - normd2
PhilW - good call - if i may? your post is summed up by 'everything is legal until I get caught' - it's the fear (in every sense of the word) of the consequences (forseen and unforseen) that gives us some members of society that are law-abiding and those who are not.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Ian (Cape Town)
your post is summed up by 'everything is legal until I get caught' - it's the fear (in every sense of the word) of the consequences (forseen and unforseen) that gives us some members of society that are law-abiding and those who are not.

In addition, I may add, it seems some folk are so concerned about their "human rights" not being infringed that they go out of their way to do stupid things, believeing that "I have right to do this!"
Fine and good. Until their actions - or inactions - cause death or injury to themselves and other folk.
A classic example - cyclists. Some ride with a defensive and aware attitude, while some, because it is their right, ride in such a way that they put themselves at risk.
Now, we all know that riding a bike can be pretty dangerous, as some folk in cars really are muppets.
But the upshot is that, no matter who is right and who is wrong, a ton and a half of car is GOING to win any argument.
Bit of a hollow victory, if YOU were in the right, but are now in a hospital bed/wheelchair/coma/coffin...
If a tree falls over in a forest... - b308
Reminds me of the Brittas Empire comedy with Chris Barrie where he gets run over by a car on a Zebra Crossing. He took the attitude that he would walk straight onto a zebra crossing without waiting as the cars "have to stop for him" - his wife rightly predicted that he would get run over and true to form he was, when his wife goes to see him in hospital (all bandaged up!) the first thing he says is "I was in the right!" Very funny, but makes a point similat to yours Ian!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Bill Payer
What loss arose? None.


I think your post sums up how ridiculously over-regulated we are. If no loss arose in any of those examples you posted, then what's the problem?
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Round The Bend
Red means STOP.

It's as simple as that really. You have to be conditioned to automatically stop on red. If you are in the habit of thinking it is up to you to decide if it safe if you see a red, sooner or later you will make a mistake.

Can't believe there are people out there justifying this.....
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Focus {P}
If you're stopped at a red light, and it's stuck on stop because it's broken (although you don't know that), what do you do?

Eg. wait (how long?) then go if it's 'safe', turn around and find another route (even if it's tens of miles out of your way), something else? Assume you can see clearly for miles around and nothing is coming the other way.

I'm not saying you should ignore the light BTW, just curious.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - daveyjp
It depends on the lights and the junction.

A couple of times I can remember:

Lights at the end of a slip road off a dual carriageway. My lights staying on red, other lights going through sequence. After three cycles I treat it like a give way and proceeded with extreme caution.

Right turn filter not sequencing and staying on red. Those at the head of the queue were struggling to turn right as there was no time between the flows of traffic. I left the queue and went straight ahead instead and round the block.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - oilrag
"conditioned to automatically stop on red."

Exactly,
Once you break the `conditioned response` in stopping for a red light, sooner or later there is a risk of running a red light without realizing it. That could be in the rush hour, while the mind is distracted in thinking about work, or similar.

We once set up an experiment (in Class) where pairing a light colour with an image, elicited a certain response just to the light before eventually response extinction set in. Which was fortunate really, given the smooth muscle involved in the response.

Red traffic lights = Stop. You really don`t want to mess with that.

(with respect)

Edited by oilrag on 04/06/2008 at 12:17

If a tree falls over in a forest... - AlastairW
Locally there is a traffic light controlled side road (intended for the future Hazel Grove bypass - you never know they might build it one day* - but I digress...). In practice all of the residents of said side road treat it as a give way, which often catches me out when I am foot, resulting in much fist shaking from me.

* it has been in the planning stages since the 1920s!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Sofa Spud
I would wait for the lights to turn green. Running a red light is a no-no unless it becomes clear that the lights have failed and stuck on red. Should a person who decides that they don't need to obey traffic lights actually be behind the wheel of a motor vehicle? - I ask myself!
If a tree falls over in a forest... - tyro
I'm another one in the "I believe in the rule of law" camp. The prosperity of a nation depends, to a large degree, on people believing in the rule of law. There are many nations where few people believe in the rule of law, and the consequences are pretty unpleasant.

But there is no question that the law is often a complete and utter ass (including many temporary traffic lights) and this does bring it into disrepute.

It's the nanny state phenomenon. I have no plans to go into politics to seek to change things, but if other backroomers would be so good as to do so, I'd be most grateful.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Westpig
It's the nanny state phenomenon. I have no plans to go into politics to seek
to change things but if other backroomers would be so good as to do so
I'd be most grateful.

'Lud for mayor'...now that has a certain ring to it. I'd vote for him...:-)
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Ian (Cape Town)
Exactly
Once you break the `conditioned response` in stopping for a red light sooner or later
there is a risk of running a red light without realizing it.


See above my post about the fire station lights which are NEVER on... (except, of course, when a fire tender exits).
Same thing - those lights are ALWAYS green... so everyone passing them is on autopilot.
If a tree falls over in a forest... - Ed V
We're a long way from "proceed if safe to do so", that's for sure.
 

Value my car