>>I believe that police driving simply reflects driving standards in general.
This was kind of my point, but in a chicken and egg way. Is police driving the reflection of modern driving standards, or are modern driving standards being coloured by the influence of poor roadcraft of highly visible police drivers who are perceived (albeit wrongly as pointed out by another forum member) as experts?
Edited by davmal on 17/04/2008 at 17:24
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or the public will lose respect for the force.
Er... service these days actually. One cannot help wondering whether those of us who work for the police would rather be in a force or a service if they had the choice.
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At the age of 50 I believe that the Police are a force not a service, I still treat them with respect and genuinely fear getting on the wrong side of their officers.
When driving, even, as I do these days, with complete caution, I experience a frisson of fear when I see a patrol car behind me.
When I worked as a GP I could only find respect for the police officers that I saw in my surgery.
I'm not a crawler but just an ordinary middle-aged bloke, I hope to feel.
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A shooting friend is a Business Manager for a Police Division, your blood would run cold at the cost of repair to Police owned cars (they're not insured fully comp !) that he has to budget. The majority of these repairs result from outright neglect and or abuse at one end of the scale, to unavoidable bumps and scrapes at the other.
He tells me that the corresponding budget in the Traffic Division is far less, I think that there is a message there.
He describes how an advert for a used Police Car may appear as having the sentence "one professional owner, fifteen hooligan drivers" included - he is a bit jaded though.
Edited by Pugugly on 17/04/2008 at 18:51
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Is police driving the reflection of modern driving standards or are modern driving standards being coloured by the influence of poor roadcraft of police drivers
I would err towards the former, but make a distinction between traffic police and other police.
Of the non-traffic police officers there must be good drivers and not so good ones; and I really can't see how the instances of poor driving by the not so good ones is enough to influence the overall standard of other drivers? I dont think there are enough police cars on the roads for them to influence the standard of other drivers. There aren't in the areas I drive in anyway.
IMO drivers in general will copy each other sheep-like, and bad habits and minor transgressions will proliferate that way; with a lack of traffic police to keep them in check.
We ought to be able to expect all police drivers to set an example but when the "beat copper" drivers are as overworked and understaffed as I hear they are, its no surprise to me that standards have slipped.
I would guess its something of a regional thing too; I was surprised to read the thread recently where there was talk of police drivers in London running red lights when not on a call. I really would not expect to see that round our neck of the woods..
Edited by Rich 9-3 on 17/04/2008 at 19:32
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the least skilled police driver and they are very much in the majority, have no training whatsover...none...zilch. This is because many years ago someone decided it would be acceptable to save money on driver training and allow them to drive as 'basic' drivers having had a simple check test to see that they're basically safe. They drive as any normal member of the public drives, because they've never been trained. Imagine your son/daughter signing on the dotted line and the next thing you know they're driving a marked police car with only the driving skills you or the local ADI gave them! If you see someone driving a panda car and driving otherwise than what you'd expect a qualified police driver to be doing...there's a good chance they won't be a qualified police driver.
They are supposed to not respond to emergency calls or utilise the exemptions for qualified police drivers, but sadly many do.. (for often the reason of 'making the job work')...it is WRONG and should never be and is purely down to cost. Even the proper courses for the qualified drivers have been cut to the bone.
To answer PU's entry re the Business Manager and the damage to police vehicles..ask him when he last (or if ever) went out on a patrol and saw what they actually had to do with the inappropriate equipment provided. Traffic cars, mostly, are fit for purpose. Panda cars are often not fit for purpose, being underpowered etc, so the qualified drivers have to drive something designed for the non qualified drivers. Try driving up a pavement or across speed humps or a playing field etc in a bog standard Astra/Focus/306 and not damage it eventually. Try chasing something in it.. and you'll be mashing the gearbox, brakes etc in a vain attempt to keep up.
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That is truly scary. As I understand it advanced driving techniques were developed by the police in order to reduce the number of accidents among drivers. It does though explain why I see such a big difference in driving standards between ambulance crews (usually impressively high) and non traffic police. Theres been a few times where I was concerned by police driving, and on one occasion I nearly drove into the side of a police car which had gone through a red light. In a sense I feel sorry for the police, as they are still liable for prosecution for dangerous driving regardless of the freedom to 'break' traffic laws in an emergency.
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"He tells me that the corresponding budget in the Traffic Division is far less, I think that there is a message there. "
Not much damage to bodywork, but you should see our budget for tyres and fuel........ouch!!
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Just out of curiousity MLC. Are all Traffic cars petrol ?
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No. Petrols are the majority, but BMW 530d's are the new kids on the block.
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Have err... any been misfueled yet?
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funny you should mention that, this is a problem that was mentioned to me, brand new Focus response car misfuelled as was a Scamera van..... :-)
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funny you should mention that this is a problem that was mentioned to me brand new Focus response car misfuelled as was a Scamera van..... :-)
I'm sure I'm not the only one with a broad grin after reading that last bit ...
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Stop grinning, its coming from us in Community Charge ;)
Edited by oilrag on 17/04/2008 at 21:52
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Why would anyone take pleasure from that ? That would just be petty and childish wouldn't it.........Heh Heh! ;-)
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Just spoken to our host here (who is a Bobby with North Wales Police), he tells me that their Officers are sent on a three or four week driving course as part of their initial training (before they hit the streets), there are then bi-annual refreshers which vary in length depending on drivers' needs (i.e. a driver who makes the grade is allowed to go early, whereby a driver with "needs" are kept on until they make the grade)
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Mmm another nugget, PCSOs here are not encouraged to drive (they get basic assessments) by the ACPO, in practice they do as its a rural Force and they need to get to where they need to go. They are actively discouraged though as they tie up expensive Police cars (Average cost of a Focus Estate 1.8TDCI in Police garb £20k plus) and if they break them it means there are less cars available for response work.
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Note to self,
Under no circumstances purchase a used common rail diesel.
I wonder if the old bill have got so much admin and pc (no pun, well maybe) memo's and filings to remember to do, that they are simply overloaded, maybe if the managers left em alone to do proper coppering jobs, without having to cross every T or worry about some nosey blighter reporting them for driving over a white line or something, they might get their minds back on the job. Even if their driving isn't so great....
I have every sympathy with the bill, the paperwork alone is a nightmare.
We have a similar problem at the moment, the new management (don't you just love them) seem to think we are not old dog transporter drivers but new age admin and computer programmers. The damage rate is going up, as they, the management have forgotten what it is we do. (deliver truckloads of new cars in perfect condition, hopefully)
Same as we're forgetting what we do, cos we're so busy doing admin.
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And which company 'chips' them then? Co's they will have been done for sure.
VBR...MD
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Sorry to burst your bubble, they aren't chipped. Invalidates the warranty don't you know.
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Round here the Pandas are bog standard Focus 1.6 TDCi base models.
It's only been about 6 - 8 years since they stopped driving Fiesta Encore 1.8Ds. If I had to chase someone in one of those I doubt I'd even bother trying until the boys in the S60's arrive.
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Thought I would add my 10p worth. Several reasons for the perceived decline in driving standards.
Basic 'non response' authorities are given after an assessment drive only. Historically all drivers completed Standard courses which taught the basics of 'Roadcraft'. As budgets are stretched and Police/PCSO numbers increased, driving schools have not increased in capacity financially or staffing.
Traditionally Pursuit/Response could be undertaken by anyone who had completed a Standard course. With high profile collisions involving Police vehicles restrictions have been placed on drivers. Smaller numbers have been trained to a higher standard with the remainder not being authorised, other than to commute.
The sheer volume of work now experienced by frontline staff. There was a time when you put so much as a scuff on a car and you had your driving authority suspended for weeks/months while a full investigation (punishment/ridicule) was completed. Now its a case of keeping drivers driving at all costs unless they have been involved in something serious
Society in general seems to have lower standards of professionalism and pride. Try finding skilled craftspersons to undertake jobs to high standard without taking shortcuts!
Pride and professionalism has diminished in the 'Service'. Recruits had a certain amount of discipline instilled at Training School with frequent drill and inspections. Officers were saluted. Ranks were addressed as such. Standards were maintained by old hand supervisors. Largely all gone as it was dictated that we were not a military force but a service. Characters gone, as academics and opportunists took hold of promotion boards which have churned out young in service clones who, as identified in the media this week, spend most of the time talking total rubbish. ( Fellow Constabulary forum members excepted of course and I am generalising here). How often do you see bobbies with hats on in all these documentaries? Very seldom.
Sunday morning spent checking and cleaning vehicles and equipment. Everything checked and replaced as required. Now its cells full of prisoners from Saturday night fueled by cheap alcohol served all night as a result of changes in legislation. No time for traditional Sunday mornings.
And Police cars with bulbs out? Cant keep stocks of bulbs anymore, coppers not qualified to change them. What if ..........................?
Yes there is more pride and professionalism shown by 'Traffic' (Roads Policing) Officers. There cars are their offices and they are keen to do the job and have the cream of the fleets. Most are passionate about vehicles and traffic work.
Overall values and standards in the Police have mirrored those in society. And no way do I wish to devalue the commitment and dedication of frontline bobbies - its just that times have changed.
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The usual excuse. Times have changed. A one size fits all statement applied to all drops in standards throughout society. If the downward spiral is to end, then we have to change for the better. How about Chief Constables take control back from the police authorities that dictate policy. How about they recruit the RIGHT candidates, instead of appeasing the politically correct brigade.
Times have changed, and it can change again. Don't give in.
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Not to disagree, Scribe - but I would NOT describe Fullchat's excellent and informative post as being "the usual excuse". Like other contributors here, not least the welcome representatives of the BiB, he offers a thoughtful and reasoned perspective, not a justification of the status quo.
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Did you read my previous post near the top as it was along the same lines. Though the excuse of shrugging shoulders and saying thats the way things are, is not a constructive way to change things for the better. Look at both posts, mine and Fullchats, and you will concur that standards will get worse unless changes are made.
Edited by scribe on 18/04/2008 at 12:49
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Fullchat has it just about right.
As one who has gone through this in the last 2 years, current practice in my force (and we are recognised as one of the best in the driver training area) is:
Initial 3 hour course as a basic driver (can you drive somewhere without banging into things?) Authority to drive standard cars (Pug 307s, Focusses (Focii?) and the odd Astra.) All diesel. The pugs are being phased out and are mostly the 1.4, but there are a few 1.9. Focus are the 1.6 Studio spec.
After about 12 months, you get a 13 day standard course. This involves Roadcraft, the "System" of car control, town driving, country driving, high speed runs, night runs, blue light response. You spend 5 days driving at speed limits, observing rules, driving smoothly etc. As it should be. Then in the next 5, there's more speed added (still smooth and safe) and only if you pass these first 10 days do you get the lights and noise. Emphasis still on smooth, safe, attitudes etc. Completion of that allows you to drive any standard car and to use the emergency vehicle exemptions (speed, red lights, keep left/right signs etc.) Training is always geared towards anticipation, and the expectation that if you crash, it's your fault because you didn't anticipate.
After 3/4/5+ years, those who want get a 4 week advanced course. Then there's TPAC, van courses, 4x4 courses etc. I've not done any advanced stuff, so can't comment on content. Nearly all the advanced cars are petrol (Volvo V70,XC90, S60 T5, Subaru Impreza. There are a couple of 530d's and one or two Range Rovers which I think are diesel.
Car checks on Sunday mornings are still supposed to happen, and some do. A lot don't The cars are also supposed to be cleaned. Maybe they might be if there were a jetwash/bucket/sponge/tap/hoover! All too often however, the demands of the active queue mean that these go by the wayside.
I think that as the car has become a "right" rather than a "responsibility" for officers, driving standards have suffered. If the alternative was foot patrol, then you'd drive a lot better! Certainly as cars become more complicated, people lose the basic skills of bulb changing etc and so have very little mechanical sympathy. Our cars get thrashed, mount kerbs and wrecked by speedbumps. If you do have a bump though, the force do investigate, and where necessary, punish. Our response car driver has just lost his advanced ticket after an altercation involving our new car, a puddle and a fence...
PCSO's here drive hybrid cars - marked with police on bonnet and boot, and a door shiled, but no jam sandwich or lights/sirens.
I try to drive well - don't we all - but there are times when I won't do as well as I ought.
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Sorry - 3 posts since I started the last and posting it!
A lot of PCs are good candidates. The answer is not simply to recruit thousands of ex-squaddies. They can be too aggressive in situations where aggression is not called for. Sure, robust city centre drunkard policing etc, but not in all cases. Remember the army usually grumbles about UN deployments by saying that they are not policemen. "Join the Army, see the world, meet people and then kill them" used to be a slogan...
I'm not averse to discipline, but we need to be backed up by bosses and the public if it's actually to happen. At the moment, the Home office are pushing through so many targets etc that we don't have time to do things properly any more.
I'm looking forward to my city centre night shift tonight!
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In my earlier post I was not suggesting the blanket recruiting of services personnel. My point was that I know of many ex-squaddies that are being overlooked in the recruitment process purely for police authorities obsession with ticking government targets for recruiting candidates with the wrong attitude from all strata of the communities they serve.
But you can also see that aggression can come from candidates picked from civvy street. Squaddies can remain calm in stressful situations and carry out directions sensibly. Which cancels out your squaddie argument.
I was trying to get across that recruits from outside the military seem to be unable to take orders or be disciplined. And that is the crux of my point. A squaddie can take "orders" and will have the necessary aptitude to take a disciplined line in his/her demeanour.
Why has marching and saluting been withdrawn from training centres. Go soft, they don't like being shouted at mentality. The same has happened in the fire service. And the result is a molly coddled intake that are inferior to the officers that went before them . And the tone of previous posts from serving officers bears this out. If they can't take discipline in training, then they should be cut loose at this point and recruit someone that can take it. Whether from civvy street or not.
Regards to maintainence of vehicles, you always saw an immaculately turned out fleet. Now they're as dirty as buses. This reflects on the person in the vehicle and the service as a whole.
Admit it, your service has been dumbed down, and you wonder why the public are not behind you sometimes. A bed has been made, now you and we have to lie down in it.
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What you got for me there Billy Joe?
Got you a real nice li'l Chevy sherf, four fifty-seven cubic inch block, high compression heads, steel crank, got you a four-barrel Holley in there, pull a hunnerd forty-five on the straightaway, only don't run her like that more'n a couple minutes till she beds down some...
Eat your hearts out, Limey traffic plod.
:o}
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"In my earlier post I was not suggesting the blanket recruiting of services personnel. My point was that I know of many ex-squaddies that are being overlooked in the recruitment process purely for police authorities obsession with ticking government targets for recruiting candidates with the wrong attitude from all strata of the communities they serve."
Not sure they're being all overlooked for the wrong reasons. And what do you mean by wrong attitude? If you mean govt targets for ethnic minority recruiting, then that's one thing.
"But you can also see that aggression can come from candidates picked from civvy street. Squaddies can remain calm in stressful situations and carry out directions sensibly. Which cancels out your squaddie argument."
Not necessarily. A well-trained PC will carry out orders (and yes we have those) sensibly. Ex-army types are more likely to over-react when they discover that they can't shoot at the problem.
"I was trying to get across that recruits from outside the military seem to be unable to take orders or be disciplined. And that is the crux of my point. A squaddie can take "orders" and will have the necessary aptitude to take a disciplined line in his/her demeanour."
Disagree.
"Why has marching and saluting been withdrawn from training centres. Go soft they don't like being shouted at mentality. The same has happened in the fire service. And the result is a molly coddled intake that are inferior to the officers that went before them. And the tone of previous posts from serving officers bears this out. If they can't take discipline in training then they should be cut loose at this point and recruit someone that can take it. Whether from civvy street or not."
Rubbish. Do you want to be saluted when your house burns down?
"Regards to maintainence of vehicles you always saw an immaculately turned out fleet. Now they're as dirty as buses. This reflects on the person in the vehicle and the service as a whole."
Agree. We need more officers to be able to cover the area and do all this cleaning etc thanks to public demand. Demand for police attendance is far higher now than ever it was.
"Admit it your service has been dumbed down and you wonder why the public are
not behind you sometimes. A bed has been made now you and we have to lie down in it."
Agree to a point. If people stop calling us for trivial neighbour disputes, parking complaints and rubbish, then we can deal with stuff properly.
I would heartily commend "Wasting Police Time" by PC David Copperfield. It is frighteningly accurate and gives a real insight into both sides of the police work that we do today.
Edited by Orson {P} on 18/04/2008 at 17:54
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"I think that as the car has become a "right" rather than a "responsibility" for officers...."
Was a time when becoming a 'panda' driver was seen as a promotion to be protected.
"I would heartily commend "Wasting Police Time" by PC David Copperfield. It is frighteningly accurate and gives a real insight into both sides of the police work that we do today."
Spot on, best read I've had in a long time and oh so true!
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I read it in one sitting - a damning indictment on present day Britain both on the community and the way that the Police service is run. I am proud to say that I have known Officers of all ranks over the past 30 years, both professionally and socially. Individuals are capable of incredible bravery and on occasions pay the ultimate price. The armchair warriors should get up and out there now again to see what its really like.
They should wash their cars though or get a PCSO to do it ! :-)
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"Not sure they're being all overlooked for the wrong reasons. And what do you mean by wrong attitude? If you mean govt targets for ethnic minority recruiting, then that's one thing."
Yes I meant that.
"Ex-army types are more likely to over-react when they discover that they can't shoot at the problem."
Sweeping generalization. Not all gun ho. Unlike your firearms teams, who should be picked from the military, not from rank and file.
"Rubbish. Do you want to be saluted when your house burns down?"
No. My opinion is that saluting,bulling shoes, marching AT training centre instills discipline and pride. And carried forward onto the station, why not salute senior officers. It shows respect for rank or role. I don't expect officers to march down the road either. You've taken this to the extreme.
"Agree to a point. If people stop calling us for trivial neighbour disputes, parking complaints and rubbish, then we can deal with stuff properly."
Situations can escalate into violence. The public expects back up from the law in what you describe as trivial situations. I suppose you only want to cherry pick incidents to attend, and I'm afraid that is not acceptable. But I know from experience that this goes on.
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Alright - we've both made sweeping generalisations.
As to cherry picking jobs - yes, we do. It's a question of do we go to a parking complaint with no criminal offences, but people thinking that there is a given right to park in the road outside their house, or do we go to the burglary with the little old lady. Priorities. Everyone would far rather do a job that requires a policeman rather than 2 neighbours who can't get on. I'm not talking about violence, just pigheadedness.
As I say, read the Copperfield book - he makes my points better than I.
Anyway, shouldn't we be talking about driving?
Edited by Webmaster on 20/04/2008 at 01:19
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You're right Orson. Back to motoring please.
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