Jaguar did the same thing, deliberately, 20-odd years ago - even jacking up the price of existing models by tens of thousands (the XJS I think it was) because marketing experts told them, rightly it appeared, that people would pay more for the perceived brand image.
I remember being horrified years ago when the newspaper group I worked for raised cover prices by a huge amount because of a change of policy that meant that, rather than trying to provide perceived 'good value', papers would cost as much as people said they would be prepared to pay and not a penny less. To my surprise, it worked - people just went on buying!
Presumably, Honda's experts have told them the same.
And don't forget, most Accords go to private buyers who are often looking for engineering integrity and retained value, rather than the latest gizmos and glitz that the boss will replace when the reps get bored. So they will pay.
Hondas have always tended to be more expensive than run-of-the-mill motors anyway. I recall the price of my first Accord, in 1982, was about 5-600 pounds more than what appeared to be the direct opposition - about 10 per cent. It was certainly worth the difference then, image or not. Maybe they still are?
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Same goes for virtually any product.
Not real difference between supermarket premium brand larger and say Stella other than the price. Careful marketing builds the image and tells you that it is special, then peer group pressure etc takes over. Often the price is the only real differentiator.
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Brave move then if so.
I think they will lose out on the private market.
I rate Honda highly, probably best brand imo, but they are already expensive (relatively to other cars) but probably offer better value. whether they are worth more? I am not so sure.
The average man looking to buy a car is looking for better value not higher price because of a badge? That is with the exception of some brands (bm etc who have a loyal following just because of the badge).
Time will tell; but i expect tears!
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The Accord is already a premium product in terms of it's engineering integrity and a **far >> better car** than any of the German brands it is trying to aspire to. (As borne out by customer and reliability surveys)
I don't agree that it follows that it is a far better car just because it does well in surveys. It may be more reliable, but that's by no means the only measure of "better". I've had an Accord on extended test and while it's quite good, it just doesn't have the same quality feel and ambience that you get in a new BMW or Merc. A significant thing is that the noise isolation isn't anything like as good.
I'm also not sure there's much in the price between any of the upper medium segment cars *if* you compare the specs like for like.
Used Accords from Honda dealers have however always looked stupidly expensive - I've no idea if this is because they are paying high trade-in prices, which would be great for new buyers, or if it's the dealers just trying it on.
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Currently in the "family saloon" sector which is a shrinking one - Mondeo being outsold by Qashqai. Hence apirations to move to "compact executive".
P.S. When will Honda's advertising agency realise that highlighting "push start" as a feature of the brand has a negative connotation to motorists in UK (flat batteries rather than keyless ignition)?
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>>I don't agree that it follows that it is a far better car just because it does well in surveys. It may be more reliable, but that's by no means the only measure of "better". <<
I suppose it depends on what your measuring as better - does it have a badge that fits and some nice soft touch plastics or is it reliable and engineered properly. If you take the engines for instance I think the Honda 4 pots are far superior to anyone elses - even BMW's of which I have driven lots lately. The suspension on the Accord is all multi link - not just independent like the German brands so I suppose it has better suspension in that respect.
The MB's might have a nice interior ambience while the outsides are going rusty and they spend all the time in the dealers having the electronic aids and gearboxes replaced.
I prefer to have a car that is built to last and is reliable rather than one that is nicer to sit in and spends relatively more time at the dealers billp.
I think that is the problem with some car buyers - they cannot see past the soft plastics and the badge.
You have just proven my point of my OP in fact with your response about what you consider better - which is your opinion by the way and one I respect but don't necessarily agree with.
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The MB's might have a nice interior ambience while the outsides are going rusty and they spend all the time in the dealers having the electronic aids and gearboxes replaced.
Sorry, but that's an old story now.
I'm touching a big piece of wood here, but my late 2004 C Class hasn't had a single fault. I've done less miles than I expected in the car, but at 36K, it's been to the dealer 3 times in its whole life - an A service at 18K miles, MOT and brake fluid change at 3yrs, and B service has just been done at 35K miles.
The rust issue doesn't happen on fully galvanised cars from 2003 onwards and neither do gearbox failures.
In fact MB dealers are scrabbling for work as they're seeing so few cars come in for warranty work. My local dealer is advertising servicing prices that are cheaper than independants.
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Read all the responses in this thread with great interest.
BP - just a quick note about MB reliability and how costly they're to get fixed but by no means I'm talking about all MB brands here.
My cousin has got an S class and in January he spent £2500+ to get the track rod and few other bits sorted on his car and it was done by MB dealer. 2 weeks ago the track rod needed replacing which they did under warranty.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 22/02/2008 at 18:45
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Re the OP's points. When the current Accord was launched the exact same comments were made about it moving upmarket to compete with the prestige brands. Honda don't seem to have lost out from it last time and I don't expect they will this. Having changed three years ago from a 2002 BMW 318SE to an Accord CTDi I reckon the Honda is better in most important respects for my needs. On big difference on price is that at the time I changed there were very very linited options on the Accord whereas the German options lists are extensive. This does mean that the price differential can grow if you spec up a competitor. My bet is that Honda will continue to charge a small-ish premium but trade on the perceived (and to my mind real) quality, high standard spec and engineering ticket without however moving prices significantly. This is a market Saab used to address well but has failed to do in recent years and if Honda have got people to consider their cars in the same niche I think they are likely to continue to do well.
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Accord CTDi I reckon the Honda is better in most important respects for my needs.
You'd be pretty miffed if you were amongst the many people who opted out of company car schemes and chose Accord CDTi having been told it would do 50MPG+ only to find it struggling to do 40MPG.
It would be interesting to see what you get for the Accord when you change it, vs what the equivalent BMW would be worth.
Accord sells in terribly low volumes. If Honda are happy with that then nothing will change, if they want to increase its volumes then they'll need to address the pricing.
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Re fuel consumption, I get 46 mpg and this is constant over mixed motoring. Even on long motorway cruises at 70mph I can't break 50mpg and that's a tad disappointing. However its only recently that my fuel costs have moved above 10p per mile in diesel costs and thats pretty good. I thought Bill Payer's point about values was a fair one but I'm pleasantly surprised to see from Vauxhall "value my car" that 2005 BMW and Honda Diesels are not far apart -in fact ES spec and CTDi are much the same. I know its not a particularly authoritative source and real world values may be different. We'll see when change time comes!
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Fuel consumption.
A 15 tank average was 40.2. Last four tanks have been 37.1 (to Wales with 2 bikes on roof), 39.1 (Quiet motorway both ways to Lakes, no bikes, 75 mph), 41.2 (Quiet motorway to Gloucester and Oxford, just me in car, 75 mph) and 37.1 (to Wales again).
Not exactly brilliant, rubbish in fact given the 50+ claimed, although it remains a joy to drive. When it works.
Personally I think the new Tourer looks great. I'm not at all sure about the saloon, although I don't like the current saloon either.
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yorkiebar.
After hiring a Honda Accord in Cape Town this last Christmas vacation ( one of the top petrol models with what looked like DSG box and sporty seats and suspension), I was extremely impressed with the car, even though the sporty ride was hard on pot holes. It's a pity I don't know if I like the looks of the new European Accord ( in AutoExpress ). The front looks a bit strange; but maybe it will look better in the metal.It will obviously be a lovely car though.
People will always buy Mercedes Benz at a premium. Servicing costs can cripple people. I dearly love the E Class though.
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>>Sorry, but that's an old story now.<<
In fairness bp I have to agree with you and I did dig a tired old comparison out of the memory banks - MB have improved immensely and I was particularly impressed with the mangement team at the time when they openely acknowledged that they made a mistake by cutting back on the quality of their cars.
Having said that I have just come back from an outing with the BiL in his A3 diesel dsg box and if this is supposed to be German premium brands then Honda are already way past that mark - and I think that is my point - the cars are already better engineered and return much better refinement already. The audi was gruff and course and rattled like my daughters toy box - it does have some grunt mind you !
I just don't think they need to chase the so called premium interiors of the German brands when there cars are already better quality IMO - but might not have so many soft plastics.
They should stick to what made them successful - building well engineered cars that people could rely on year after year.
Edited by Pendlebury on 23/02/2008 at 13:43
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Honda have an ad on page one of today's (23rd Feb) Telegraph Motoring section for the Civic.
Nowhere can I see the price. Various figures are quoted for options, but the MRSP is not mentioned, is this a deliberate policy by Honda - I wonder?
Perhaps Honda feel it's a case of "If you have to ask the price you can't afford it"
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Yes, I think they have.
I would have had another Accord - great car - and expected it to last me. But the closest equivalent to a second-hand Avensis cost £4,000 more, and had a less powerful engine to boot.
Toyota got the mucker dollar.
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Buy a Legacy instead.
Goes round corners better too.
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Looking at car mags, it seems to me the BMW have cornered the top engineering label. Their mpg figures for example are better than any rivals, quite extraordinary figures compared with just a few years ago. I don't understand how they manage it. I think they simply charge more and market successfully to car-mad Brits to enable them to spend more on the cars [but less extra than they charge of course].
Most anti-Beemers I guess simply knock them due to the high numbers and the fact that many drivers will be the more aggressive [faster] motorists who enjoy what Beemers can do.
As has been said here before, hardly any cars now spend time broken down, even those that manage just 2 stars from WC?, so the difference is in aspects that most of us will never notice or value, such as roadholding etc. Quality is valuable to the likes of me though in low noise levels for instance. My Legacy Outback is v quiet when cruising.
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Ed V.
There is absolutely no doubt that BMWs are incredibly successful. I notice that they have the system of automatically cutting off the engine in the 520 diesel when in a traffic jam or traffic lights etc. They also save on fuel with a connection with the braking. Will it not wear the engine qicker having it cut off and on continually? Remember the VW Golf that did that? I know the BMW group are producing amazing results.
I am also a very big fan of Mercedes E Class. Wait for the brilliant new one in 2009! The Autocar scoop of it looked fantastic. They have spent a fortune on the new clean systems ( Bluetec)? VW have bought into that greatly, so Audis will go green!!
Yes Hondas are lovely well made cars. They normally have a great assembly. They are bringing in an improved diesel engine.
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The used values of Accords tell the tale of where it sits in the market place and the buying public certainly don't view it as a BMW or Audi competitor whatever Honda may think.
Used Accord values are about on a par with the Volvo S60 until you get into higher mileage where the Accord really drops off. As an example, a 3 year old A4 1.9 TDI SE or an Accord 2.2d Executive are within £150 of each other when new but at 3 years old / 60k the Accord is worth £8275 and the Audi £10200.
Honda have managed to creep slightly into the semi-premium area occupied by makes like Volvo but they will probably struggle to go much further.
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I just wish Honda could build the Audi because Honda engineering and customer service (IMHO) in an Audi would be superb. My BiL various Audi's have all had problems of varying degrees but they do look the part.
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I'm going to change my present Accord Tourer this year. I have just priced a BMW Touring 320D, and with the same spec as my present Exec it comes to just over £30k.
I think I'll be sticking to the Honda.
A friend bought a new BMW 1.8 Coupé in April last year. He paid just over £28k. He died early October and the car had slightly under 2,000 miles on the clock. His daughter can't drive and the BMW dealer valued it at £20k. My friend bought it on interest free credit and his daughter owes BMW Finance £2k This Beemer certainly hasn't held it's value: £8k lost in just under six months.
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A friend bought a new BMW 1.8 Coupé in April last year. He paid just over £28k. He died early October and the car had slightly under 2 000 miles on the clock. His daughter can't drive and the BMW dealer valued it at £20k. My friend bought it on interest free credit and his daughter owes BMW Finance £2k This Beemer certainly hasn't held it's value: £8k lost in just under six months.
To be fair, there's several things "wrong" with that. A 1.8 Coupe - which model, £28K seems a lot? And a 1.8 BMW is probably going to be difficult to sell on. If interest free credit was offered then that's going to hit early-new residuals as it's easier for buyers to buy new.
Chances are you'd be in the same ball-park percentage wise (and possibly even in actual money) in the same circumstances on the Honda Accord Exec.
If your late friend had had the foresight to buy a BMW M3 then his daughter could probably have sold it (bearing in mind this was a few mths ago) for the purchase price.
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It must have been the 320i SE - there isn't a 1.8 - although he told me that he was getting a 1.8 engine. The basic model with leather uphostery and metallic paint is £28,445. I don't think he specified any other extras.
When my Accord was two years old I was offered £13k for a trade in by my dealer. That was a hit of £9k in two years. Rather better than almost £8.5k for a six month old BMW that had hardly been used.
In any case, it shouldn't really matter too much about the model of BMW.
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Was wandering round a local shopping mall yesterday, and a local dealer had a new Civic on display. Looked very good in black, and will probably appeal to the "yoof" market that Honda are aiming to capture; but it didn't come across as part of a premium brand. Obviously these things are very subjective.
I think Honda will have to do a Toyota and bring in a Lexus equivalent (the Acura name from the US?) if they want to go into the premium market. Think BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and a certain picture of a car comes to mind - think Honda and you get a mixed message.
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"I think Honda will have to do a Toyota and bring in a Lexus equivalent "
Don't forget they have the relaunched Legend.
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surely to be a premium brand then the whole range has to be perceived as such not just the accord and legend.
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True enough. Legend is neither one thing nor another anyway. It's both too good and not good enough for its price.
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i drove a 57plate legend last week and it was superb but if it was my money id have bought a c6 just to be different
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Was it noisy? I liked the Accord but the roadnoise was too much for us so we bought something else. The Legend I've not tried.
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Dipstick.
I read an article, which mentioned that Honda really have to make up their mind which way to go. Sporty with hard ride or very comfortable with a soft absorbing ride. Mercedes Benz really have got the comfortable ride right with the E Class. I truly love that car, even though I don't own one yet. I have gone in plenty of them and so has my wife.We were both amazingly impressed. I am genuine about this. I love the car with a passion. I am not the least bit interested in flash and showing off. I own a 1999 Seat Toledo and it is still an excellent car.
There was another article written about people in the States. Apparently lots of well known public figures over there still choose Mercedes. ( I once read that Santa Barbara has quantities of Mercedes).
Honda will definitely have to try and outdo Lexus. A very difficult job. I do genuinely have tremendous respect for Honda though. The Accord was such a pleasure to drive.
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the legend was surprisingly quiet.
i drove it from southend on sea up the a27 onto the a13 and dropped it off at London city airport. on the a13 i managed to get near the speed limit and it just wafted along with little noise at all and when i had to slow past Dagenham until i got to the airport it was also pretty silent. a few potholes it did fall into and it didn't crash like a ford might do and the suspension overall i wouldn't call soft just pliant
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Thanks for the E class pointer cattleman, and the mini review, bigbirdy! I like the look of the E class but just don't seem to get on with the feel of a Mercedes, although to be honest my experience is only test driving a few S classes from 2000/2002 era. maybe a later E class is an entirely different beast?
The Legend might well be of interest when it comes to replacement time for me (summer), as long asw it's quieter than the Accord. Although I do have a hankering for another Lexus, and the problem is once you've Lexxed it's hard to find anything much that is as quiet, so you have to get over that hurdle.
Useful info guys, ta.
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When my Accord was two years old I was offered £13k for a trade in by my dealer. That was a hit of £9k in two years. Rather better than almost £8.5k for a six month old BMW that had hardly been used.
Different situation though - the Honda was a p/x price and the BMW was a straight buy. I would imagine the last thing a BMW dealer wants is yet another nearly new vehicle sitting on his forecourt, hence the price.
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i agree about the Lexus.
my brothers girlfriend has a new ls430. it now has 6k on the clock
it is a magnificent cruiser. i sat in the back of it a few weeks ago and we travelled to andora and back in less than 48hrs and it was utterly silent and very quick. i drove for an hour or so and it was very comfortable.
she was going to get a jaguar xj8 but fell in love with the lexus ride quality
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>>It must have been the 320i SE - there isn't a 1.8 ?<<
BMW have 2 versions of their 2 litre engines (petrol & diesel) and they badge the lower powered 2.0 a 318 and the higher powered 2.0 a 320........just to keep things nice and simple. They also do it with their 3 litres and have a 330 and 335 although both are 3.0.
>>"I think Honda will have to do a Toyota and bring in a Lexus equivalent "<<
They have done that already and it's called Acura in the US.
The european accord is badged a TSX and competes with A4 and 3 series etc.
Nissan are also doing it with infiniti.
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I would imagine the last thing a BMW dealer wants is yet anothernearly new vehicle sitting on his forecourt hence the price.
I hardly think so. The dealer was desperate to get his hands on it.
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I hardly think so. The dealer was desperate to get his hands on it.
which would tend to indicate that the price was abnormally low.
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which would tend to indicate that the price was abnormally low.
If your late friend had had the foresight to buy a BMW M3 then his daughter could probably have sold it (bearing in mind this was a few mths ago) for the purchase price.
You can't have it all ways. First of all my late friend chose the wrong model, now the price was abnormally low!
Edited by Robbie on 26/02/2008 at 19:20
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Robbie
I think the reason for the low offer is the fact that the dealers know that Probate and such matters mean that the Executor is looking for a quick sale and will accept such a low price. I have witnessed the same happen to a family where the dealer was asked to value a hardly run-in new Mazda. The cash price offered was just 60% of what was paid on purchasing the brand new car from the same dealer 3 months before.
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No, she wasn't looking for a quick sale. She can't drive and lives in London, whereas her Father's home is in the north- west.
The salesman was desperate to get his hands on the car, and I only found out it was going back to the dealer a couple of hours before they collected it. I told her that she shouild have put it up for sale privately. The car was locked in the garage and I only live a few hundred yards away. I would have dealt with the sale for her.
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No, she wasn't looking for a quick sale.
Oh well, whatever you want to call it then.
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Back to the original post.
I feel Honda have very poor marketing and do not know where to go, this "lets make it a 3 series" smacks of desperation. They said it with the last Accord.
It does not work, i had a Accord (Rover 600 version) that was one of the most reliable cars ever built and served me well for 9 years. I wanted to go out and buy another but felt at 1 to 3 years old current model Accords were just not value for money. The biggest let down was the lacklustre interior, even with leather they just do not get anywhere near a BMW/Merc or even a Volvo S60 which is what i bought.
In the UK Honda have a "retired, sensible" image, so young thrusters stick to the Germans. The current Civic has some of the most stupid design features and seems to have driven away the hordes of retirees who used to drive them to Toyota whilst gaining a few younger men with the Type R image rubbing off on lesser models.
Honda have two great cars the Jazz and the CRV, they should just give up on the Accord. Mondeo and Passat have the answer for everyone who wants a sensible "family saloon" or whatever the marketeers call that type of car!!!
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I'm wondering if Honda will also try to push the new Jazz upmarket (or at least up in price)? It's already expensive (very expensive compared to some rivals) but it's generally bought by people who aren't that price sensitive. The current Jazz was pretty well equipped compared to rivals when it was introduced, but others have caught up now.
I also think the fact that it's made in China will put off many in its target market (if they realise).
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