Seeing the postings about driving in snow remeinded me that others have previously reported how poor "summer" tyres are at temperatures below 6 or 7C.
Given our relatively snow and ice-free winters, can it really be worth owning TWO full sets of tyres, one for summer and one for winter? How many Broomers have 4 summer tyres in their garage currently, just awaiting April's arrival to do a 4-jack job before putting the roof down for 6 months.?
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>>previously reported how poor "summer" tyres are at temperatures below 6 or 7C.
Yes, Ed, it's interesting you've brought this up. As far as I know, the source of this "fact" is tyre industry and retailer websites. And then it gets regurgitated as gospel (by me as well).
I would be very interested to see an independent, controlled test which confirms this.
I don't live in the UK at the moment (just south of Helsinki) so I have 8 OEM ("summer") tyres in the "garage" (2 cars)!
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Using "all-season" tyres all year round is an alternative to changing between summer and winter tyres.
The lack of comparative information in Europe is frustrating. Tire Rack has comparisons for US tyres but few are sold here in the same form.
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In the past I've used winter tyres and swapped for them for summer and latterly I use winter tyres all year round. The economics make more sense if you can pick up a cheap set of extra wheels (£25) from somebody who fitted Alloys. I believe the argument against using winter tyres all the time is that they are nosier and wear faster. But as the car they are fitted on is only used for commuting on wet, muddy and ungritted lanes, I've seen no difference in wear rates, don't notice the noise but I do appreciate the extra grip.
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I'll need a lot of convincing that it's worthwhile before investing in eight extra wheels. I think that will be the case for most of us who live in/near conurbations.
May be different if you have to venture much above 600 feet or are north of the Central belt
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Billy Whizz posted this link in the parallel Driving in Snow thread:
download.autobild.de/dl/335998/2007_40052_Winterreifentest_205_55_16.p
df
There is no indication of the temperature the comparisons were made, i.e. are winter tyres really better than summer ones when it gets cold. I seem to remember that there was an article here either on the TV or in the press which debunked this idea in comparitive tests.
BIG
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>>There is no indication of the temperature the comparisons were made.
That's right, BIG, and it is something I pointed out before.
>>debunked this idea in comparitive tests
please elaborate. What idea?
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can it really be worth owning TWO full sets of tyres one for summer and one for winter?
"Winter"? This does not compute.When did we last have a winter... oh, er, umm....
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The lack of comparative information in Europe is frustrating. Tire Rack has comparisons for US tyres but few are sold here in the same form.
Every winter tyre of note including FE makes are listed by the ADAC with every bit of information you want and every tyre supplier in germany holds a copy.
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In Germany, your winter tyres are stored for you by the local garage.
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Every winter tyre of note including FE makes are listed by the ADAC with every bit of information you want and every tyre supplier in germany holds a copy.
Is this available in English?
How can these be compared quantatively with all-season and summer tyres?
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I have found during the last 10 years or so, my tyres operate perfectly well at the lowest temperatures I have encountered. Maybe it is something left over from the silica-free days. I definitely remember the older times of sliding around on fast corners, and wheel spinning out of side-roads. I have also found that if I do provoke an powered understeer type slide with ESP off, the tyres don't just suddenly lose all grip, but are very progressive and snap back to grip easily.
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I confess, we've got winter tyres on a fleabay set of used alloys on one of the motors, and i do run another set of wheels/tyres on the other car also (they arn't winters at the moment) during the cold season mainly to offset the effects of the salt corrosion, but the summer tyres are F1's on the second car and are hopeless for the first few miles in very cold conditions.
Unless youve tried good quality winter tyres it really is a revelation the amazing grip whilst cold.
Extravagant, maybe, but i have reasons which are personal why i want one of the cars to be as totally safe as possible.
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I confess we've got winter tyres >>
Where abouts do you live GB?
Darn Sarf, we have had no winter to speak of - as yet. A few frosted windows and that's about it.
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Where abouts do you live GB?
Not in the frozen tundra, but Northamptonshire and as we like to say 'your welcome to it'
We havent had snow yet either, but that isn't what the winter tyres are really about, its the far better grip in the cold.
(plus if my SWMBO was yours and drove like she does, you'd want to put as much grip as poss under her).
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How many Broomers have 4 summer tyres in their garage currently just awaiting April's arrival ...
I do, because I live in an isolated spot in the Highlands. The fact that winter tyres are supposed to be better at low temperatures is neither here nor there. But if the road is snowy, I want to be able to get home.
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The UK annual average temperature is only 9. something degrees - all winter and parts of spring / autumn are below 7 degrees which is when "summer" tyres work much less effectively.
If you live or commute in southern cities I doubt you'd notice the difference but if you live in northern rural areas then the benefits are worthwhile.
Given that one third of England's population live in the south-east, that still leaves a lot of UK motorists who would benefit from changing to winter tyres, if they could be bothered.
I now just use "all-season" tyres all the time.
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I stick with the one set of tyres all year round. Touch wood, in 21 years of driving I have never had an accident.
And other than in my early days of youth spirited driving, I have never nearly "lost" the car through lack of tyre grip.
Anyway here in Glasgow there is no difference between winter and summer.......
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Well, it's ain't going to get down to 9C this week in London, at least not in daylight! And it's supposedly slap bang in the middle of winter. Crocii are out, the daffs are flowering.
13C high today. I used to play cricket in worse than this!
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I have never (me driving that is) had an accident in winter on sumer tyres. I have had many accidents in summer on summer tyres.
The weakest link is always what head the driver has on not his tyres.
For all the UK winter tyres on a car is a waste of time at all times. IF you live in an area with high chances of snow, and poor grip you buy a 4 whhel drive car with the appropriate tyres.
Even for Northern england the days of 6 foot snow drifts for 6 weeks are long gone. 4 months of temperature below 5c is history.
what we need now are good anti aquaplane tyres.
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>>For all the UK winter tyres on a car is a waste of time at all times. IF you live in an area with high chances of snow, and poor grip you buy a 4 whhel drive car with the appropriate tyres.
AE, have you ever been to Scotland in winter? When I stayed with my cousin in his rustic cottage a few years ago up near Elgin we were snowed in for several days.
The point is you don't need an 4x4 if you have good tyres! Most cars here are 2wd and manage amazingly well in winter.
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several days
yes there we go my point a couple of days!
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It was a 10 day visit over Xmas and NY! And we were snowed in for 35% of the time.
edited to add note to self: don't feed the troll. ;-)
Edited by Billy Whizz on 05/02/2008 at 14:14
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It was a 10 day visit over Xmas and NY! And we were snowed in for 35% of the time. edited to add note to self: don't feed the troll. ;-)
35% of 10 days is 3.5 days. you wanna change tyres for 3.5 days?
yours trully
troll.
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RT >>below 7 degrees which is when "summer" tyres work much less effectively.
Where do you get this from?
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RT >>below 7 degrees which is when "summer" tyres work much less effectively. Where do you get this from?
www.tyres-online.co.uk/techinfo/winter.asp
Perhaps we should do as this reference suggests, call them "cold weather" tyres, rather than winter tyres.
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That's my point. All the info about the 7 degree issue I have so far found comes from manufacturers and retailers. I have not yet found independent tests.
The information you quote is courtesy of Continental.
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I run my Panda 4x4 on Hankook Centum tyres. These are designated all season but I was pleasantly surprised the other day, when I looked at the side-walls, to see that they carry the "snowflake" symbol that also grades them as a Winter tyre.
These tyres have proved effective in all weather from dry to wet to snow+ice and I do not for a moment feel a need for 2 sets of tyres.
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Have you considered that generally all-season tyres perform considerably worse than regular tyres in dry and wet braking, aquaplaning and cornering?
E.g. Both wet and dry braking from 100 kph - all-season tyre takes typically 6.5 meters longer to stop.
download.autobild.de/dl/335998/2007_40052_Winterre...f
How much would a second set of tyres / wheels actually cost for a Panda? (e.g. second-hand wheels from ebay and new tyres.)
Snow performance is strongly correlated to tread depth. Wet braking too. In Germany, a winter tyre with less than 4mm tread cannot be legally used in snowy conditions.
By having two sets of tyres you have better performance in the summer and better in the winter. Both sets last longer (in terms of years use).
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Read this about Hankook Centums.
tinyurl.com/3yqua5
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doctorchris, the glowing Hankook press release refers to ADAC tests. A search of the adac.de website for Centum reveals several tests results. To which one do you think Hankook refer?
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This isn't strictly winter/summer compound but mine is more Mud/snow tyres - in late 80s SWMBO had a Nova Diamond with Alloys on so I bought set old steel wheels and had new remould M/S tyres fitted - one night we went to a party in wilds of south Shropshire and when we came out it was to 4 " snow - where were the M/S tyres - sitting in garage - those Nova wheels then fitted two Clio's and Mazda 323 - where are they now - in a mates lockup - only ever used once in a bit of slush.
Dave
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This is an indepth review of summer and winter tyres (in English!):
www.umweltdaten.de/publikationen/fpdf-l/3163.pdf
BIG
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BIG, that is almost exactly what I am looking for. Thanks very much. I have just finished skimming through all 70 pages. Looks very interesting. Tomorrow I will see if I can find a more recent / updated version. The tests date from 6 years ago and I understand measurable improvements have been made to winter tyre design and materials in the last 5 years. Great stuff!
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www.adac.de/Tests/Reifentests/Winterreifen/
Predictably, there is an update on the ADAC website in German !
The tests refer to 155 and 205 tyres.
In general , they recommend M+S all year tyres for small cars with low mileage, with speeds up to 190 kph ( over 150 mph...) especially if you can fit snow chains !
M+S tyres do not perform as well as winter tyres in snow.
Take a chill pill before you like at prices for the Michelin Alpines...
Interestingly, autobild just published a test on winter tyres at 8000km (5000miles).
Tyre wear is extremely poor due to the soft compounds.
Most of the tyres would be worn out at 8-10k miles.
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>>autobild just published a test on winter tyres at 8000km:
www.autobild.de/artikel/ratgeber-winterreifen_4410...l
The longest lasting top three:
The Michelins had worn 1.9 mm after 5000 miles
The Dunlops had worn 2.04 mm
The Sportiva had worn 2.23 mm
So assuming 10 mm tread when new and renew at a 4 mm limit, the tyre life is:
Michelin = 15,790 miles
Dunlop = 14,720 miles
Sportiva = 13,450 miles
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We have a set of winter tyres that we bought because we go to the Alps once a year, and fitting winter tyres is a lot less hassle than trying to fit chains in the cold/dark/wet. Having invested in them I leave them on for 3 months to get better use from them.
I find them quieter than standard tyres and they are naturally grippier in the cold.
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