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Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Billy2Jags
Whatever happened to the trial that was supposed to take place a few years ago?

I think it is time to start the debate again

On a recent trip from London to Doncaster I witnesses the collective stupidity that passes for HGV driving on the M11/A14/A1.

My journey and that of every other road user,was constantly disrupted by one lorry pulling out in an attempt to overtake another that was going just marginally slower. These manouvers slowed all the following traffic down for a good 5 minutes as the two lorries travelled side by side and then in at least 60% of the manouvers the original would be overtaker was forced to pull back in where he started from.
Result constant congestion, delay and disruption.

This week I drove across Denmark where HGVs are banned from the outside lane in daylight, no problems what so ever in 3 hours of motorway driving.
The same is true of the A5 in Germany where the same rules apply and is one of the busiest motorways in Europe.

If the rest of Europe has proved it works then I think it is time for us to adopt it
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Ruperts Trooper
The trials on hills the A14 and M42 are ongoing - I understood that MfT regarded the trials as successful and would be introducing similar bans on other two lane dual carriageways with hills.

I'm not aware of any plan for a blanket ban on the use of the outside lane by HGVs on two lane dual carriageways.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - bristolmotorspeedway {P}
So what happens when the HGVs come up behind a vehicle doing 50mph? They all have to drop their cruising speed and stay there. This becomes a solid line of nose-to-tail HGVs, which should be great to merge into when attempting to join the motorway.

Edited by bristolmotorspeedway {P} on 02/02/2008 at 12:35

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - james86
I completely agree. HGVs should be banned from the outside lane between say 6am and 10pm. Would also ban from the second lane on motorways in rush hour (7-10 and 4-7 say).

I'd like to take it further in fact and have a minimum speed limit as well to stop the 50mph problem described. Set the min limit at whatever the HGVs max limit is (60?) and then everyone has to go at that speed at least. It's dangerous to have people going much slower than that due to closing speeds not to mention the bottleneck it causes to have HGVs constantly having to pull out and pass a car sitting at 50.

I realise why that is not really possible but wouldn't it make for a much better driving experience by those who use our dual carriageways regularly?
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Hamsafar
They should allow them to go 70mph again as they used to.
Speed limits should be by road, not by vehicle type, it's a well known fact that most accidents occur when two vehicles of different speeds meet.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Billy2Jags
The fact remains that it is the stupidity of the lorry driver who tries and fails to overtake that causes the most problems and danger on two lane and even three lane motorways.

Changing the top allowed speed will just move the problem to a differnt point.

As to coming upto a slower vehicle, this is never a problem on the A5 in Germany or elsewhere in Europe so why should it be a problem in Britain when almost 50% of lorries on our road are now foreign registered.

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - bristolmotorspeedway {P}
As to coming upto a slower vehicle this is never a problem on the A5
in Germany or elsewhere in Europe so why should it be a problem in Britain
when almost 50% of lorries on our road are now foreign registered.


I do a 3 junction/22 mile stretch of the M5 everyday.

Apart from the odd slow car/caravan/lorry there are two vehicles that I see regularly in each direction, both of which presumably do the same journey every day.

One is a crane that probably doesn't crack 50 flat out, and drops to maybe 30-40 on one long climb, the other is an ancient double-decker bus with similar performance. Maybe such vehicles are barred from European Mways.

Both of these are overtaken by everything else on the road, HGVs included. They would have literally dozens of HGVs stuck in a line behind them...and no-one would be able to join the motorway (in my experience it's mainly HGV drivers that pull into lane two to allow vehicles to join).

And that example is about one small fairly quiet section of Mway. The very least required to make your plan work would be a minimum speed limit too.

Don't forget the limit is 70, spending a few mins stuck behind a lorry at 56 does not impact door-to-door journey times significantly.

Don't see the relevance of your point about foreign lorries?

Edited by bristolmotorspeedway {P} on 02/02/2008 at 15:39

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Billy2Jags
The point about foreign lorries is that they are very used to the no outside lane rule and as to being held up for a few minutes, that would be alright if it was only a few.

My point is that this lane blocking is now common place and creates major delays.

Even worse for delays is the driver who pulls out stays alongside another lorry for a mile or so and than has to pull back in again behind the lorry he was trying to overtake.
Result.....major tailbacks reducing speeds down to 25-30mph for ALL road users.

Maybe a lorry driver could explain why they do this?



Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - R75
Maybe a lorry driver could explain why they do this?



Because as of yet your Mk1 Lorry driver is not fitted with ESP, hence they have no idea how much weight the other truck is carrying, nor how much power that truck has, so they have no way of knowing if they can or cannot make it past until they actually do it!!!!!

None of your points really make any sense!!!

The one question I will ask, why is your journey more important then theirs?
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - GT
Because as of yet your Mk1 Lorry driver is not fitted with ESP hence they
have no idea how much weight the other truck is carrying nor how much power
that truck has so they have no way of knowing if they can or cannot
make it past until they actually do it!!!!!


Right, but why doesn't lorry driver on the inside graciously (and sensibly) slow down a tad to allow the overtaking truck to complete its manoeuver? Does he really have to fend off the overtaker at all costs - I guess they've both got the throttle pressed to the floor, it must be great for the two protagonsists in this game of truck racing, but somewhat boring for those of us not not in immediate need of attention in the area of frontal lobotomy.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>Maybe a lorry driver could explain why they do this?

Cue loads of nonsense about speed limiters which"force" them all to drive at 56.

Yes, well no-one forces them to pull out and sit side be side for mile after mile. All it would take is the overtaken driver to let off the throttle for a second or two, perhaps losing a fraction of 1 mph for a few seconds to let the other driver go.

But, they very rarely show other drivers queuing behind this courtesy. The sooner they are banned from outside lanes, the better.

As the regular truck driving contributors will know, I don't give my views from a position that's ignorant to the needs of truck drivers - I've spent quite some time driving trucks, and I do understand the pressures and limitations of the vehicles. Effectively, that's why I know thelimitr based arguments are so much bunkum - I used to let off the throttle myself when I saw a rolling roadblock developing, and didn't suffer problems as a result.

As there's a very small random element to speed limiter settings, it's probably only 1 in 10 overtakes that will become a rolling roadblock anyway, so objections of lost time don't really stand any scrutiny.

Unless trucks begin to show more courtesy in this area, ban them overtaking!

Number_Cruncher

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
As there's a very small random element to speed limiter settings it's probably only 1
in 10 overtakes that will become a rolling roadblock anyway so objections of lost time
don't really stand any scrutiny.


Hoist by your own petard NC. If lost time objections don't apply to HGV's then surely they don't apply to car drivers either. Assuming that car drivers are competent enough to slow gradually rather than scream up behind the truck and then brake hard (which is often the cause of the resulting concertina) then what is all this fuss about?

Car driver gets held up for say two minutes maximum, doing 15 mph less than the legal limit. I'd suggest that he's made the deficit up within a mile once he's passed the blockage. It's no different to going through roadworks, in fact it's probably easier.


And as you claim to be a professional HGV driver yourself, you should know what a load of rubbish your call for an overtaking ban really is. It's not only impractical, it's illogical.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>Hoist by your own petard NC.

Not really - I don't think it's right for one vehicle overtaking to make everyone behind queue. When I'm driving any vehicle, I do so with some concern for others. It's a courtesy thing - see Gordon Bennet's thread on the subject.

If it were just one car being held up, then I would agree that there's no problem, but that's not really the case is it?

>>And as you claim to be a professional HGV driver yourself

No, I claim that I've driven trucks for money - truck driving isn't a profession, it's a job.

>>you should know what a load of rubbish your call for an overtaking ban really is. It's not only impractical, it's illogical.

It seems to be working very well on the M42. Of course, this doesn't fit your point of view.

Number_Cruncher
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - yorkiebar
Doesnt seem to work on the A14 though !

basic problem is too many vehicles on too few roads. Get rid of need for some of the vehicles is the only real cure because it will get worse before it gets better!

Your theory again comes unstuck though when you say its ok for a lorry to hold up 1 car but not a string of cars ? Either they are allowed on the roads with set rules (that are enforced) or they are not! if its not then dont expect the shops to have the food/clothes/presents etc that you expect to be there !
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>if its not then dont expect the shops to have the food/clothes/presents etc that you expect to be there !

No, I don't buy into this either. Just because the truck journeys may be the odd mph or two slower for a few miles doesn't suddenly empty the shelves in shops. If the result is some more realistic planning by the numpties in a typical transport office, then that can only be a good thing.

Number_Cruncher
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - yorkiebar
My point is not how a few more mins suddenly empties the shelves but in the longer term thinking less lorries getting through will equal this.

The solution is surely to get the lorries off the road, not how to stop them getting anywhere.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>but in the longer term thinking less lorries getting through will equal this.

I think better planning would be a good idea. I remember making a delivery to a hotel in Grimsby, from a depot in Blackburn. I found it difficult to credit that the item I was delivering was fish - from Grimsby!

Perhaps encouraging people to use local produce might be the sustainable answer.

>>The solution is surely to get the lorries off the road

No, a million times no! This would mean putting the freight onto the railways. We really would know about empty supermarket shelves then! While the number of trucks is problematic, they do offer flexibility which the railay can never hope to match.

Although at some times, obtaining a path can be amazingly easy. As part of a bolt failure investigation, I instrumented the suspension of a couple of bogies on an electric pasenger train. I asked the depot manager if we could move the train up and down the depot yard to apply the brakes and check I was getting a signal. He asked if it would be better to go a bit further - naturally I said OK. He rang up the signallers, and 10 minutes later we were on the mainline running a completely unscheduled test train down to the terminus at the coast and back!

Number_Cruncher





Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - yorkiebar
This could develop into another thread.

The problem with the lorries is that there are too many on the road, especially such as the A14 becuase of freight to and from the docks (and elsewhere in the country too).

Simple cure, the warehouses the goods go to need to be on a train line from the docks. Simple cure really, it gets a lot of (foreign especially) lorries off the roads and makes transportation simpler.

However I do agree with buying local produce. But we are obsessed with buying from china and india (and making those countries prosperous at our own expense) so its an even bigger uphill battle than the simple but effective cure of bulk haulage onto railways. Agree not an overnight cure, but it has to start somewhere!

And why oh why have all these well paid "planners" been forcing more and more traffic onto our roads without any plan in place long term to cure it?

Politics; another subject altogether !
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
Doesnt seem to work on the A14 though !


Sorry YB, I didn't come back to you on this point.

The A14 is both a very busy road, and owing to the places it serves also one with more than its fair share of HGVs. I do agree that a more radical solution is needed there. Perhaps having more than one decent road from the midlands to the East would be among the better solutions (i.e. make the A47 dual along its entire length)

Number_Cruncher
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - daveyjp
So what happens when the HGVs come up behind a vehicle doing 50mph? >>


Or even worse a Sunday driver in a 20 year old Metro doing 35mph? I saw this in the A42 trial area. I let the coach driver who was rapidly approaching said Metro pull out in front of me and get past the Metro driver who IMHO shouldn't have had a driving licence - if the coach driver had been pulled I would have supported him in Court.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - davmal
Daveyjp

Interesting little rant, don't suppose you know why the Metro was only doing 35mph do you? Which incidentally was about the average speed that our Kato did, so should many mobile crane drivers have their licences revoked?

Supporting the coach driver in court would only demonstrate that two people, rather than one, had no respect for the law or felt that they had the right to pick and choose which rules to obey. IMHO.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - b308
Having traveled widely in Germany I can't remember any blanket ban of HGVs in the outside lanes of 2 lane autobahns - there are restrictions on hills, but once the hill has gone the restriction is lifted and they can use both lanes again - the A14/M42/A42 examples are the same system I understand
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
Here we go again. Someone's had to drive for five minutes at less than flat-out, so he wants to ban lorries off the motorways .

Added at least half a minute to your vastly more important journey did we? Diddums.

So if some of you have your way, us truckers will be stuck in the slow lane behind a mobile crane, or a tractor on an A-road, whilst all the cars float past in the outside lane.

Fine by me. Most of us are hourly paid, so the longer we take the more we earn. And when you get to work and find that the factory's on stop because the bits you want are in the lorry which is in the queue, you won't have any work to do either for a few hours, so we're all happy aren't we?


I agree that hogging the middle lane can be seen as selfish if taken to extremes, but it's nothing compared to the mindset of some posters on here who think that their car journey is the most important in the world, to the exclusion of everything else.

Get a life; and set off five minutes sooner if it bothers you that much.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - gordonbennet
Well this is one discussion i wasn't going to comment on, but its good to see the seething hatred of truck drivers is alive, well and thriving.

Some of you didn't catch a truck driver with your mother or something at some point,did you?

I really hope they try this as an experiment some time, it will be highly enlightening to see the chaos and accidents and probably violence that this would cause, quite how anyone expects to enter or leave the dual road they would be using is beyond me, as no doubt you would want a correct distance of say 100 yards (gosh sorry eu i meant metres), between trucks to enable all the important people to merge into the truck lane and then what? The truck lane will be doing about 15mph or so for several miles before and after junctions, so how do you then merge into the important people only lanes that will be hurtling past at suicide speeds?

The real problem is that our country is overcrowded and its only going to get worse, so i expect we'll just have to live with it.

I've bored you with it before and i'll say it again, truck drivers did not ask to have speed limiters fitted, they were forced on us by eu dictatorship, we didn't have this bunching and chronic overtaking problem before the limiters came in, as truck drivers, thick as we are, are independent minded and we made progress as reasonably as possible.

Darkened room becons.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - yorkiebar
I was on a motorway the other day proceeding at 70 mph, maybe a little more, and I was in the outside lane overtaking vehciles in the inside 2 lanes. However the traffic in lane 2 was only just travelling at less speed than me by about 5 mph or so. It took ages for me to clear enough traffic to safely pull into the middle lane.

However there was a very importnat person behind me who was allowed to go faster and I was impeding his progress. he let me know I was by switching his headlamps on and gesticulating.

I therefore think that the outside lane should only be used by these important people who are allowed to travel at speeds in excess of the speed limit. Us other mere mortals should then fight over the inside lanes between ourselves and not impede these far more important people. Perhaps a higher road tax band or something similar would then allow us to identify these cars and give them the room they need on dual carriageways and in towns and cities too!

Oh by the way when I made it into the inside lane and was overtaken by this pompous arrogant thoughtless driver I came out into the overtaking lane (its not actually a fast lane despite so many people thinking so) and showed him that my car was faster than his. (he didnt like that either!)

So is arrogant drivng better or worse than being held up by a lorry? imo its far more dangerous having an idiot up your backside trying to push you out of the way than the average lorry driver who is generally far more aware of whats happening!

What a load of arrogant tosh has been spouted about how unimportant the lorry trips are compared to a cars. Like it or lump it, you want no manufacturing jobs over here then the stuff has to be imported and guess what that causes. Yes, more lorries!

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - zookeeper
i nearlly got killed last week because a hgv tried to occupy the outside lane that i was travelling in , foreign vehicle( left hand drive) didnt see me did he.....oh well thats all right then!!
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - yorkiebar
Thats not good zookeeper i agree and I am genuinely glad you are ok.

But it is no worse than an overfast car pushing a car to get out of his way and encouraging that driver to dive into his inside lane. If that is done without thought and vision that is also likely to cause an accident; possibly even a major one!

Neither scenario is right. Road use is (or should be) about give and take. Not just take as is suggested by some of the more pompous posters on this thread!

Edited by yorkiebar on 02/02/2008 at 19:30

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - bristolmotorspeedway {P}
i nearlly got killed last week because a hgv tried to occupy the outside lane
that i was travelling in foreign vehicle( left hand drive) didnt see me did he.....oh
well thats all right then!!

The LHD ones need watching for as they don't all have limiters so are often going slightly faster than you might expect.

I'm not judging your incident, but generally it is very obvious when a HGV is going to want to pull out - it's either closing fast on, or extremely close to, another one. Or there is a slip road joining just ahead, so the HGV is likely to pull over for joining traffic.

When passing pairs or larger groups of lorries, a bit of anticipation is required, I usually try to have an 'escape route' (ie an available slot in the 3rd lane) and also make the overtake fast.

None of it is rocket science, and neither is it infallible should the one-in-a-million lunatic trucker be around.

Most of the time I simply leave 5 mins earlier than my journey needs and spend it in the inside lane - a much more relaxing place to be. Always ensuring I don't go slow enough for an HGV to catch up of course :-)
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - daveyjp
Daveyjp
Interesting little rant don't suppose you know why the Metro was only doing 35mph do
you?


No because I didn't flag him down and have a chat. I suspect that due to his advancing years he was doing 35 because that's what he was happy with. Unfortunately it's a dual carriageway with a 70 limit. 50mph I can accept, but 35 is wrong mainly due to it showing complete lack of consideration for other motorists. Vehicles over 7.5 tonne can't use the outside lane for about 10 miles on this experimental section and we hadn't been in the zone for that long. If you came across the same driver doing 35 in the outside lane would you follow at 35 until the driver decided to pull over?

Which incidentally was about the average speed that our Kato did so should many
mobile crane drivers have their licences revoked?


I also see this as a shortcoming in the law - some very heavy vehicles aren't capable of higher speeds, but that's one for the lawmakers - the Metro was.
Supporting the coach driver in court would only demonstrate that two people rather than one
had no respect for the law or felt that they had the right to pick
and choose which rules to obey. IMHO.


I'd argue the Metro driver was driving without due care and attention, which is also an offence.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - boden
The UK government came up with the idea of limiters set at 60mph in 1992 and were told then that this would happen but as you might expect were'nt interesrted in listening to people who would tell them what they didnt want to hear,but anyway around the same time the real government in Brussels came up with there own idea of 53 mph which has a 3mph overun hence 56mph and thats where we are still with the problem asdiscussed I too have never understood what there is to gain by not lifting off to let another wagon get by which he will do eventually anyway. I've never found it a problem and so far the sky aint caved in and I have thought about the bad impression it gives to following car drivers even though its daft to start passing another wagon when you know you are only travelling marginally faster, you may as well cut the cruise back to 54mph and sit with it .
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>I too have never understood what there is to gain by not lifting off to let another wagon get by


>>you may as well cut the cruise back to 54mph and sit with it .

Tip Top!

When driving a truck that had the facility to set cruise speeds, rather than just control speed at 56, that's exactly what I would do. 53 or 54 mph made for far more relaxing progress without really affecting what work I could do in the day.

Number_Cruncher
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Westpig
IMO most lorry drivers are skilled drivers, they can do it properly if they wish to... having limiters fitted is no excuse for committing the Road Traffic Act offence of 'Failing to show reasonable consideration for other road users' contrary to s3 RTA 1972.. by causing an endless unnecessary roadblock...in the same fashion tractor drivers can and have been done for it

again IMO, you'd not be likely to be done for it at the legal limit, because the faster driver behind would be intent on breaking the law and i cannot imagine the law is going to penalise the former to assist the latter (i'd be interested in a lawyers take on it)..however an endless 60mph overtake by a car driver on someone else doing 58mph, who could quite easily nip up to 70mph to let a big queue through, equally commits the offence....because it is unnecessarily ignorant and is holding people up who would like to travel faster...how long would it take to increase speed slightly then drop the speed down again.....(i am talking exceptionally long, not just the driver behind having to have some patience, which some don't seem to possess)
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Ruperts Trooper
This whole "problem" exists due to vehicle speed limits rather than road speed limits and compounded by limiters and tachometers fitted to just one type of vehicle.

This was made very clear to me while towing a trailer on the single carriageway A9 between Perth and Inverness. Cars may have a limit of 60, but my limit was 50 despite the fact that I'm legal and safe at 60 on dual carriageways. HGVs of course were limited to 40, despite the fact that they're safe and legal at 56 on dual carriageways. The congestion and frustration caused to car drivers by trailers and HGVs is immense at 40mph.

I have no problem with differences in vehicle speed limits on dual carriageways but I really think that vehicle limits on single carriageways should be abolished and allow all vehicles to travel at the road limit.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - b308
Well said WP, a sensible post amonst a load of ranting and raving from both sides...
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - davmal
Daveyjp

You seem to have missed my point. You don't know why he was doing 35mph, the driver has been tried and condemned on your suspicion. Maybe there was a problem with the car and 35mph was flat out, as many modern cars will do if in "limp home mode". Maybe he has the world's worst case of piles, and 35mph was the most his backside could stand. Maybe he was on the way to the vet with his poor injured 18 year old Jack Russel lying in the back after being run over by some psycopathic HGV driver tearing around the countryside etc...
To my mind, the speed of advance should be dictated by many factors, not always obvious, high winds would not particularly slow me down, but a motorcyclist and a high sided vehicle driver may see it differently, to use a very recent example.
And again we find the word "limit", should we substitute "target"? And why is 50 acceptable but 35 not, they are both rather arbitrary figures, would 48 be tolerable?
If the situation demanded, then yes I would follow at 35mph, if 50mph is the target minimum then over 10 miles I have only lost 3 1/2 minutes.

"some very heavy vehicles aren't capable of higher speeds, but that's one for the lawmakers - the Metro was."

Ironic that you aided and abetted a coachdriver to flout the law, then fall back on the the law to censure the Metro driver. Surely driving a twenty year old BL car is punishment enough.

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 03/02/2008 at 12:30

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - daveyjp
My issue is about consideration for other motorists.

If he had a problem with the car get the hazards on, if he was unfit to drive at more than 35mph he shoudn't have been on a 70mph dual carriageway. If I had an ill dog I'd want to get it to the vet asap.

To turn your argument around my statement about 50mph being acceptable, what if Mr Metro was doing 10mph because he was terrified of dual carriagways (as happened a few weeks ago)? Should any vehicle over 7.5 tonnes be expected to stay behind the slower vehicle?

As you can see banning HGVs from overtaking seems a good idea, but there are situations where it could lead to a problem. IMHO it should be coupled with a minimum speed limit, but this is also unworkable.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - R75
I would really like to know where you all drive to get caught up in these never ending blockades!!

I use the A34 between Winchester and the M4 quite a bit, I use the M27 and the A27 as much, both these routes are heavily used by trucks - when I was driving the trucks I used the A34 about 4 times a day on average - now I am in a car I never seem to come across these road blocks! I may have to ease off for a few seconds, but that is about it - I can't help but think much of the problem is all in the mind!!!!!

How about a little survey, next time any of us get caught in one of these situations can you please try and time the hold up accurately. I would be surprised if in reality it was any longer then 30-60 seconds, which is less time then it would take getting to a set of lights at the wrong phase!!!!
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - ForumNeedsModerating
I don't suppose any truck drivers here wonder why limits (and limiters) were imposed on the various HGV grades on different road types? Short memories indeed. In the 60/70/80's mass pile ups & multiple death RTA'a were relatively more commonplace than they are now. It was realised that the kinetic energy of 30+ tons @ 70mph could (and did) cause any accident to be multiplied in destructiveness - the simple physics & dynamic limitations of pantechnicons made high-speed motorway travel many times more dangerous than it is today with (physically) speed limited HGVs.

As a driver I'm simply not interested in your schedules, whether you make your mileage or bonus is secondary to safety on the roads. Commercial drivers seem to become fixated & convinced in the idea that they do work that is more economically important than other road users - how do you know the cars you hold up with theatrical & histrionic driving technique aren't carrying a brain surgeon to a hospital surgery or a midwife to a tricky home delivery, or a business person to a crucial (and export winning) meeting?

The hegemony of the HGV is based purely & simply on power & size. The technique & skill levels I see regularly, leave me unconvinced of the notion of professionalism & training that many HGV drivers seek to imbue their profession with.

Edited by woodbines on 03/02/2008 at 02:01

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - pda
>>>>>No, I claim that I've driven trucks for money - truck driving isn't a profession, it's a job<<<<<

Sadly, this quote by an HGV Driver says it all.

Whilst we have lorry drivers on the road who drive trucks for money and don't think they are professional, the standards of driving will only deteriorate.

>>>>>I don't suppose any truck drivers here wonder why limits (and limiters) were imposed on the various HGV grades on different road types? <<<<<

Yes, most of us KNOW why the speed limiter was imposed, we were there.
It was because of the intense fuel shortages in the 60/70/80's and the rationing that had to be imposed.
The kinetic energy theory was just an attempt to disguise the real reason.

Traffic holdups are part of life if you travel on the roads, take a chill pill, get over it and ask yourself if your suited to drive at all if something so commonplace can induce so much anger in you!

Pat

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>who drive trucks for money

Should they be driving them for the love of it?


>>don't think they are professional.

There's nothing particularly professional about driving a truck - however accomplished, skillfully and safely you do it. It's a job - a job which can be done well, but sadly one which is all too commonly done badly.

Number_Cruncher
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
It's a job I've done for many years NC and to me it's actually more a way of life. Bottom line is that there are a lot of drivers out there who DO drive a truck because they enjoy it.

There are also a lot of us who try to drive in a "professional" manner, which to me means that we have consideration for our vehicles, our loads, our customers and most importantly of all other road users. We therefore resent reading comments from posters on this and other boards, that ALL of us are dangerous inconsiderate roadhogs who use the size and power of our vehicles to bully other road users.

Regarding the "old" days; in the 60's and 70's trucks were much less powerful than today. A 32 ton artic would be powered by a 180 horsepower non-turbo Gardner diesel, mated to a six-speed "crash" box", exhaust brakes and retarders were unheard of as were the now standard anti-jacknife devices. Many accidents were caused by brake failure, much less common today.

Today's modern artic goes up motorway hills at more or less the same speed as it goes down them. That's about 55 mph, only 15 mph less than the legal motorway limit for a car, which of course can use the third lane that we are barred from.

I accept that some of you feel that you have, in a car, the inalienable right to a clear road ahead of you and ALL other traffic should be moved over so that you may continue your stately progress, but in reality you have no more or less rights than anyone else.

BTW, whilst we're on the subject of lorry speeds; ALL of us could stick to the legal limit on single-carriageway roads (40 mph for those of you who don't know) and see how much you like that. From personal experience, there'd not be many complaints from the impatient ones; most of them don't survive the head-on collisions which result from them overtaking on blind bends, odd how the same drivers will wait for a safe spot if my truck happens to be doing 50 on the same road.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Alby Back
On a a lighter note. All this has reminded me of the story of the guy who was stopped by the police for "cruising" in the local red light district. His slow speed had drawn attention to him. In fact this route was a shortcut to where he was delivering an aquarium full of tropical fish. He was just trying not to spill any water !
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>Regarding the "old" days; in the 60's and 70's trucks were much less powerful than today.

Fully agree. To me, this makes many momentum conserving arguments for modern trucks less than convincing. I can well remember when laden trucks were reduced almost to walking pace on the hills around the area of the Lancs/Yorks border where I grew up, and from where my father operated his garage and haulage business.

I can also remember the revelation in power and drivability when he bought some of the first more powerful trucks in the early and mid 80's - the Scammell Constructor 8 wheeler with a 300 horsepower turbocharge Rolls Royce engine (the Leyland it replaced had 220), and the Merc tractor unit with a 330 horsepower twin turbo V8. In comparison to what had gone before, both were flying machines - today, they would be viewed as being minimal spec.

I haven't driven a truck now for 12 years, and I don't miss it at all. At the beck and call of idiots in the transport office, sleeping in a cold, noisy, uncomfortable tin box, being forced to take a break when the tacho tells you, no facilities, away from home for long periods of time - no thanks!

Number_Cruncher






Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - ForumNeedsModerating
Yes, most of us KNOW why the speed limiter was imposed, we were there.
It was because of the intense fuel shortages in the 60/70/80's and the rationing that had to be imposed.


'Intense fuel shortages in the 60/70/80's' ? - There was a 50mph limit imposed after the first 'Oil price shock' circa 1972 , the 60's & 80's weren't affected - so don't understand your point I'm afraid. Strange, if your hypothesis is true, that only HGVs now have lower limits? The 56mph limit is an import from the EU - the 90kph limit. It was nothing to do with fuel consumption strategies, just safety strategies - although that may change in the future for all road users, viz a vis CO2 outputs & fuel conservation/anti global warming strategies. I hope that clears up the slight confusion there.

Edited by Dynamic Dave on 03/02/2008 at 12:32

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - gordonbennet
ask yourself if your suited to drive at all if
something so commonplace can induce so much anger in you!


pda

My memory must be playing tricks, did you not start a thread complaining about car drivers a few weeks ago, and when i suggested a similar solution for you , you took me to task, not on this forum, but on the one you are admin for!!!!!

If you dont remember it was where you referred to me as a patronising pr*t.

Not a problem i get called lots of things, and the memory is still getting worse.

Edited by gordonbennet on 03/02/2008 at 12:58

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Westpig
Traffic holdups are part of life if you travel on the roads take a chill pill get over it and ask yourself if your suited to drive at all if something so commonplace can induce so much anger in you!

traffic hold ups are an acceptable part of any modern journey and to that end i'd agree with you....however unecessary traffic hold ups caused by someone else's selfishness, now those do cause me irritation, intense at times... in the same fashion a litterbug does or a thief etc...if i can attempt to be a reasonable citizen and show some courtesy to others, then why can't everyone else?...it's the 'me,me,me' attitude that sucks.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - james86
Nobody is saying that the HGVs journeys are more or less important than our own car journeys. We all have an equal right to be on the road (don't get into whether it is a right or a privilege please!).

However important my car journey is to me, I don't drive in such a way as to hold up others. I show as much courtesy as I can to other drivers and would never hold anyone up if I could possibly help it. Certainly would not choose to hold someone else up unduly simply to gain an extra 0.5mph as the HGVs often do on dual carriageways.

Many HGV drivers (whose journey is no more or less important than mine) do not drive with the same courtesy. They think that their journeys are more important than everyone else's. That's what bothers me.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
James, whilst you deserve credit for ALWAYS behaving in an exemplary manner yourself, I take exception to your use of the phrase, "MANY HGV drivers.... do not drive with the same courtesy."

SOME don't, I'll grant you that, and earn the contempt of their fellow drivers as a result. The vast majority, I would suggest, DO try to drive in a courteous manner, after all if they get reported for bad driving they risk losing their jobs, and unlike your car many HGV's have the firm's number on display.

It's always easy to blame the HGV driver. Many of you should check out John 8:7.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Pugugly {P}
According to my King James translation :-


"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - davmal
Don't you think that's a bit harsh just for blocking the outside lane for mile after mile? Three points and a £60 fine would be fairer.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
Don't you think that's a bit harsh just for blocking the outside lane for mile
after mile? Three points and a £60 fine would be fairer.



LOL! Don't start 'em off, I see hundreds of irate delayed motorists bearing flaming torches! ;-)

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
According to my King James translation :-
"So when they continued asking him he lifted up himself and said unto them He
that is without sin among you let him first cast a stone at her."


Same as it says in mine; good taste in Bibles BTW, can't stand the modern junk! :-)

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - pda
>>>It's a job - a job which can be done well, but sadly one which is all too commonly done badly<<<<<

Just as the job of Lawyer, Doctor, Company Director etc of which all are classed as a profession by those who do them.

If all HGV's were restricted to the inside lane then how do you think you would ever join or leave a dual carriageway or motorway?

Or would you expect us to slow down and let you in, then try and get 44 tonnes back up to speed again on an incline?

One thing I was taught was tolerance, sadly not practiced by many HGV haters on here.

We all share the roads, yes,both lanes of them, we all pay our road tax to use them, yes BOTH lanes of them, we are also working while most car drivers are travelling to and from, in their own time.
The car drivers who use the roads as part of there job stand apart from the rest, by the courteous attitude they have both to HGV's and other road users, and we treat them with the respect they deserve too.

Gordon Bennett, I haven't changed my opinion either!

Pat
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - rustbucket
On a slightly different subject I think All lorries should be banned from venturing out in snowy conditions.Last week all the problems around the snow hit areas were caused by lorrys unable to handle the conditions.As for the lorry driver interviewed and said yes it was a bit windy my artic wheels lifted off the road lots of times. Well was he just a bit stupid not to stop then.Or is this the normal thinking of the so called nits of the road
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
I read through this happily agreeing with you till I got to the last sentence. Pity you had to spoil a sensible comment with an ignorant attitude.

Edited by Pugugly {P} on 03/02/2008 at 19:09

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - gordonbennet
Gordon Bennett I haven't changed my opinion either!
Pat


Which opinion would that be pda, the idea that its ok for you to suggest someone else is too stressed or angry to use the roads, whilst not liking it when similar was suggested to you?

Or would you prefer to name call elsewhere and then have other posters opinions blocked and deleted when they don't agree with yours?
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - R75
Or would you prefer to name call elsewhere and then have other posters opinions blocked
and deleted when they don't agree with yours?


Ah, she's good at that, and at getting threads locked on here when she stops getting her own way and ends up looking silly and hypocritical.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>If all HGV's were restricted to the inside lane then how do you think you would ever join or leave a dual carriageway or motorway?

By giving way, and merging. It's not difficult.

>>Or would you expect us to slow down and let you in, then try and get 44 tonnes back up to speed again on an incline?

I was thinking that the more belligerent truckers would soon begin throwing their weight, or "momentum" around!

a) if cars merge, there's no need for you slow down
b) if you do have to slow down, so what? Truck power to weight has never been as extravagant

I'm not a truck hater - I just don't like bullying truck drivers who think that their journey and occupation is somehow special.

Number_Cruncher



Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Pugugly {P}
For the record TU, all the decisions to lock previous threads on lorries were made by the Mods here simply because as per usual they degenerated into the usual bickering, name calling and backbiting that they normally descend into.

Locking was not influenced by anyone other than by people raising the usual tedious childlike behaviour that lorries and their drivers seem to bring out when discussed here. I was just about to post a warning on here now in respect of the personal sniping that's going on.

This is now the warning. Discuss this subject in a civilized way or it will be locked. That will be a Moderator decision based on our own discretion and not influenced by any third parties ither than HJ. Got it ?
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - R75

Strange, not what your email to me last time said!!!!!

Got it!


no need to quote the entire post....!

Edited by Pugugly {P} on 03/02/2008 at 21:26

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - spikeyhead {p}
I drive around 30k miles PA, its rare to see an artic being driven badly, but as they;re so big, when it happens everyone notices.

Its also very clear that driving anything for a living is a job and not a profession.


Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - rogue-trooper
I drive around 30k miles PA its rare to see an artic being driven badly
but as they;re so big when it happens everyone notices.



I agree. Apart from the overtaking on hill bit, HGVs are driven usually very well. Possibly because of the extra tests. Having said that, I am glad that there wasn't a car parked on the hard shoulder of the M40 yesterday, as it would have been squashed by the HGV. I think that the driver might have been taking off his jumper and veered well over.

The thing that does surprise me about HGVs is when they pull out to overtake causing you to brake hard when there are no other cars behind you. They could just have let you by. I know that cars do it very often but I thought trucks would be better.

Going back to the OP, isn't there a law about this? I know that agricultural vehicles are bound by law not to hold up traffic but would the same law apply to HGVs?
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - yorkiebar
Why is it that bullies on the road are always the hgv's?

What about the high speed drivers (cars) who sit in the outside lane and try to force others (who are overtaking legitimately) out of their way? They are just as bad at bullying tactics and causing holdups for others by forcing cars into small gaps in the middle lane etc that then cause a following car to brake, and the car behind and the car behind etc, etc, etc. That also causes a rolling roadblock and potentially major accidents.

But it is always hgv overtaking that brings out the nasty and pompous attitudes ?

Edited by yorkiebar on 03/02/2008 at 21:27

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Westpig
If all HGV's were restricted to the inside lane then how do you think you would ever join or leave a dual carriageway or motorway?

Or would you expect us to slow down and let you in then try and get 44 tonnes back up to speed again on an incline?

One thing I was taught was tolerance sadly not practiced by many HGV haters on here.


interesting post PDA. Are you suggesting that it might be the norm in circumstances where lorries are not allowed in an outside lane..for a lorry driver up a hill to decline to let someone in, because they'd be less worried about road safety and driving courteously ... than...keeping their momentum up at all costs? How unprofessional and dangerous might that be? Where would that thinking end?

I've posted some comments on here that might well be construed as negative..but i'm certainly not an HGV driver hater, not anywhere near. In fact i think most are good drivers, aware of their surroundings, plan ahead, good forward vision, etc.... but...some 'let the side down' and it's a pity that there's the mentality of 'support at all costs' instead of recognising the problems in your own field
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Westpig
.....and i don't think for one moment all cars drivers are perfect either...they're not
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
I've posted some comments on here that might well be construed as negative..but i'm certainly
not an HGV driver hater not anywhere near. In fact i think most are good
drivers aware of their surroundings plan ahead good forward vision etc.... but...some 'let the side
down' .



Thank you Westpig. Most of us do try to do our best and I agree that some let us down.

It is the tarring of all with the same brush that I object to. Truck driving may nowadays be a lot easier in some ways (and thank goodness for that) but I was always taught that if you cannot do something yourself then you should moderate your criticism of those who can. Having read some of the comments on this and other threads I am sure the posters concerned do not hold an HGV licence, for which small mercy I am grateful. ;-)

BTW, personally I don't see the point of caravans but as long as their drivers tow them safely and responsibly then they've as much right to the road as I have. Again it is a few that let the side down.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Dogmatix
I think that you will find that driving a truck is a highly skilled profession, hence making us Professional Drivers.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>driving a truck is a highly skilled profession

Not really.

My father and cousin got their licence via grandfather rights - neither of them took a test.

I got my class 1 after a 1 week course from Greenline in Burnley, taking my test from Steeton on the Friday, and was out driving for a Rochdale based agency the following week. I don't think real professions are so easy to get into.

I do agree that there is skill involved, and that driving a truck isn't trivial or easy, but, to call it a profession is a mis-use of the word - driving is a job.

Number_Cruncher
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Dogmatix
No a job is something that anyone could do at the drop of a hat, like working on a production line. Not everyone has what it takes to drive a car let alone a 44 tonne truck safely.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - BobbyG
Working on a production line will take some training. As will driving a lorry. Manning a checkout in a supermarket typically takes 2-3 days training before you are unleashed onto the public.

I drive a car and van. Pretty sure with half an hours training I could drive a lorry up and down a motorway all day long in the inside lane. Might need more training for reversing into tight spaces mind you.

Would need more training again to drive a crane that I then need to use all the lifting controls on. But a highly skilled profession, don't think so.

Edited by BobbyG on 03/02/2008 at 23:22

Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Dogmatix
Half an hours training, yeah pull the other one :D

Experienced with driving motors with 16 gears then?
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
I think Bobby's not too far off. Driving a modern truck on a motorway isn't particularly difficult. 16 gears aren't hard - it's not as if all 16 have their own position in a huge elongated gate - it's usually just a 4 speed H pattern with a couple of switches on the side of the gear lever. Many car users are already using a 6 position gate.

Picking your way through heavy traffic, moving safely along a busy high street, reversing into tight spaces, especially on your blind side, changing trailers, ensuring the safety and security of the load - yes, that does take skill.

But then most jobs demand skill - it's understood.

Number_Cruncher
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - gordonbennet
I've got certain reservations about the titling of my job, so i call myself a steering wheel attendant, there does that satisfy the snipers.

Lets be honest any fool can jump into a modern truck and drive it quite competently in a straight line at whatever warp speed you could get it to go at, thats part of the problem modern trucks are too easy to drive, so numpty's get behind the wheel.

And a weeks course at joe bloggs driving academy a driver does not make, it means the trainee holds a licence because he/she has passed a test of some description (though some of the antics i see on the roads i think half the car or hgv testers need replacement).

When a hgv driver has been on the job for ten or more years with all sorts of different work, then they may start to call themselves truck drivers, this assuming they have managed to not cause mayhem.

Long term truck drivers, and i'm one so got me tin hat on, dont think driving 60 miles from a RDC to a supermarket with a loading bay the size of a small village and managing to reverse onto it in a straight line really constitutes the use of the term professional driver, any fool can do it, and some of them manage to destroy the premises theyve gone into anyway.

The trouble is thats what many drivers who consider themselves pro's have done from day one, and if you showed them a proper days work they would faint, i'm serious, when i worked for a small supermarket chain we had to make multi drops around London, no probs doddle, but some chaps would make such a song and dance about it, that one of the old softies like me would swap runs with them (and write 15 on our clock cards, they never had a clue), and let them do a straight hit Grimsby or something (not so many pretty things to look at up there either, no offence to that fair city, just London was more....interesting).

One of the problems in our industry is that there are so few proper time served transport managers left, we now have college trained logistic experts, and unfortunately they wouldn't know a lorry driver from a bar of soap, nor are most of them capable of common sense vehicle operations, but by golly they are wizard on a computer.

Rant over.

PU, the other poster had probs with another forum as well, and you know which one i refer to.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>And a weeks course at joe bloggs driving academy a driver does not make

Fully agree. The HGV driving I did was very much temporary and short term. I wanted to make the jump from mechanic to engineer, and needed part time, temporary work to keep some income coming in while at college and university. No garage in their right mind takes on temporary mechanics - the risks are too great, so I chose a reasonably well paid job I could get into quickly.

I'm certainly no expert truck driver (I made a few mistakes! but the only people who don't make mistakes are those who do nothing!) - but I know enough to know that some truck driving posters on theis thread (with honourable exceptions, TU & GB) try to mislead car drivers, using false arguments, covering up their poor driving habits.

Number_Cruncher


Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - gordonbennet
some truck driving posters on theis thread (with honourable exceptions TU & GB)>>

Number Cruncher, could you through your engineering contacts, get TU and yours truly a competitive quote for replacement double doors so we can get our heads through!!!

Aw shucks i'm all coy now.

Your right on with many points though, and it does annoy me the certainty that whichever camp one come's from, your fellows are so blessed perfect.

Oilrag, i see you're chucking the odd grenade in still.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - frazerjp
A lot of supermarkets do have very tight spaces for a wagon to park into a loading bay, you'll be suprised how many drivers with so many years experienced can't get into our shop without making sure the front of the tractor unit is not hitting the fence opposite or hitting the shutter with the trailer.

Talking about HGV's driving on the outside lane, many supermarket wagons are usually found in the inside being overtaken by other trucks because a majority of the trucks are between 310-380 bhp so when fully laden at about 40-tonne they don't get up the hills quickly as a 500bhp truck would perhaps.
Not forgetting many supermarket drivers are hourly paid, so they arn't always in a rush unless their legal tacho hours are running out.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
>>>> Talking about HGV's driving on the outside lane many supermarket wagons are usually found in
the inside being overtaken by other trucks because a majority of the trucks are between
310-380 bhp so when fully laden at about 40-tonne they don't get up the hills
quickly as a 500bhp truck would perhaps.
Not forgetting many supermarket drivers are hourly paid so they arn't always in a rush
unless their legal tacho hours are running out.


Close but no cigar. Trolleys, as they're known, are rarely if ever on maximum payload so they don't need the bigger engines. Most of them run at lower GVW's to benefit from cheaper excise duty. They tend to haul roll cages which are usually (though not always) bulky rather than heavy.


As for pay, the trend is nowadays towards salary, Working Time Directive has made it virtually impossible to recruit hourly-paid drivers unless they're on agency.

The reason you get stuck behind Tesco's artics is simple; their drivers are GPS tracked and face disciplinary action if they break the speed limit. Since Tesco are not in competition with other hauliers they have no reason to rush, and apparently it has done wonders for their insurance premiums.

One of the more entertaining ways of passing a few minutes on a single-carriageway road is to follow such a truck at a distance and place bets on how many car drivers try to commit suicide by overtaking where they really shouldn't. Oddly enough they don't tend to do that if the lorry's (illegally) being driven at 50 or 55.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - pda
Harleyman, please note the use of the exclamation mark !!! after the comment thus making it a humourous one.

As for being able to drive an artic up a motorway after an hours training, yes you could, but how would you fare getting to and from that motorway?

Professional is an attitude, some have it and some drivers never will.

It takes years and years of mistakes to learn this trade ( and that's what it is).

Driving is such a small part of the job but the only part you usually see us do, and yet you're happy to tar us all with the same brush.

Pat
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - oilrag
"and yet you're happy to tar us all with the same brush."

As in an `open letter` perhaps? ;)
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - wotspur
The times I get most annoyed, which is rare is always on the 2 lane sections between, M20 nearing the M25, why lorries feel the need to start overtaking within 2 miles of a 3 lane section, when waiting a little bit wouldn't cause any hold ups, and the bit between m3 and m27, and finally on the hills of the A34 .
A solution to all concerned would be, all lorries have their weights on a board at the back so they know their 10 ton lorry should find it easier to overtake a 28 ton lorry when going up hill
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - rustbucket
>>A solution to all concerned would be, all lorries have their weights on a board at the >>back so they know their 10 ton lorry should find it easier to overtake a 28 ton lorry >>when going up hill.


All thats needed is the driver of the overtaking vehicle to drive withinin the capabilities of his vehicle, not with his foot hard to the floor struggling to get the last limited revs out of the engine.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Sofa Spud
A lorry driver comes up behind a slower vehicle and pulls out to overtake at the start of a long hill. But the power and gearing characteristics of the vehicles differ, so the slower vehicle maintains its speed and the overtaking one struggles to pull ahead. But if either driver eases off, then they lose power, have to drop a gear or two, and take longer to get up the hill.

One of the main reasons for the existence of our trunk road and motorway network is for the transport of freight. Lorry drivers have a tough job to do - I know, I've been one.

Side-by-side lorries on a 2-lane dual carriageway might be a nuisance but it's just something we should all be prepared to put up with.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Statistical outlier
This argument keeps coming up time and again. I think it's completely false.

If I start to overtake someone on the motorway by using lane 3, and that person speeds up, the I don't sit there for ever next to them blocking the road. Now, it's a personal decision not to go any faster as I don't want to risk my license, but I'll back off slightly and pull back in, not block the road for anyone that might want to get (illegally) past me.

With trucks it's even more inconsiderate, as those wanting past could quite legally be going a lot quicker. It's simply putting maintaining momentum before all else - a point that can become an obsession, and one that I fell out with an instructor very badly over once.

He wanted me to pull my chronically underpowered minibus onto roundabouts with far too little space and in gaps that were far too tight. He was obsessed with not killing the speed of the vehicle. I maintained all the way to a disciplinary panel that I was far more interested in not killing myself, my passengers or anyone else.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Dynamic Dave
Harleyman please note the use of the exclamation mark !!! after the comment thus making it a humourous one.


Really? A smiley is more obvious than an exclamation mark.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - wobblyboot
This is a classic example of 'The tragedy of the commons'.

The HGV driver derives a benefit from over taking every vehicle he catches up with, no matter how long it takes, but that benefit is smaller than the sum of the losses to the car drivers who wish to travel faster.

It's no good asking the HGV driver not to do it, as he stands to lose roughly 15 mins each 4 and a half hour shift (from experience of travelling in convoy in Europe with identical trucks), you may as well ask him to take a reduction either in wages, as he is less productive over his working week, or in quality of life as every now and then he ends up half an hour from home at the end of his shift.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - ForumNeedsModerating
It's no good asking the HGV driver not to do it, as he stands to lose roughly 15 mins each 4 and a half hour shift...[by not overtaking at every opportunity]

I understand the conundrum WB, but if such a tiny advantage gained is representatvie, it seems even more short sighted & inconsiderate - for the small 'forced' advantage gained by the technique, much more (time/money) must be lost by othe road users' withdrawal of goodwill when made to endure it.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
Actually 15 minutes overplays the loss under the current system.

fps_at1mph=1760*3/3600

fps_at1mph =

1.4667
L=100;
time=L/fps_at1mph


time =

68.1818

OK, so a 1mph difference gives a 70 second overtake, so, once you have over 2mph difference, you have a 35 second overtake, which only the more extreme would object to.

If you ban overtaking, then, yes, I agree with the 15 minute figure. But, if the industry gets its own house in order, and stops making rolling roadblock overtakes, it will only lose out on the overtakes with 1mph difference or less - over a 4.5 hour stint, that's 4.5 miles, which is less than the 15 minute delivery slot being mentioned in another thread - i.e., not an issue.

Number_Cruncher
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - wobblyboot
The 15 mins comes from experience - electing to stay with the convoy who over take everything, or following along at my own pace. There's a little more to it as your calculations don't allow for over running the limiter on down grades - if you are stuck in a gaggle of trucks you often have to feather the brakes going downhill, and there are also delays caused by the gaggle catching a slow moving vehicle, and then each truck in turn waiting for a gap in the offside lane to move out.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
Yes, my calcs would assume that things like over-running would apply equally to all trucks. In practice, I tended to be more of the laissez les bon temps roulez school as opposed to the more brake happy driver.

In the case you cite, going along at your own pace is putting you at about 3mph behind the overtake everything group.

The main thrust of my point was that it's only when speed differences approach the 1mph level that rolling roadblocks develop, and it's exactly these speed differences that cause no great loss to either driver - i.e., the rolling roadblocks are not only a hindrance to other road users, they are truly pointless.

Where there is a reasonable speed difference, there is a gain to be had by overtaking, and the overtake will be swift, and relatively painless for those following.

Number_Cruncher


Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - wobblyboot
I agree NC, but perversely the greater the general congestion, the greater the gain to the over taking truck - which then makes the congestion worse.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - wobblyboot
WB, there is a gain by the truck, and a loss to the cars. However, it is not as straight forward as simply quantifying the gains and losses, as the HGV is operating under constraints imposed by the hours rules, whereas the cars have the opportunity to make up their losses by having a longer journey.
It may be the case that by driving a truck in this manner, the gain to the economy is greater than the loss suffered by the cars. We'd need a proper economist to work this out for us, I think.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Number_Cruncher
>>'The tragedy of the commons'.


Weird. Before today, I had never heard of this model. Now it's just cropped up again, I've just had an email flyer round about a talk on the growth of bio-films, "Modelling social interactions in biofilms", describing the competition between fast growing bits of slime, and slow growing bits of slime for the same food.

Number_Cruncher
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - ForumNeedsModerating
..describing the competition between fast growing bits of slime, and slow growing bits of slime for the same food.

There's probably a highly advanced society of aliens on planet Z+0?//<*g's analysing that very data & coming to the same conclusions about us, gleened from their recent 'visit' here.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
Back to the subject; even as a trucker myself I do have to say that it's sometimes not a case of keeping a truck on the limiter, some truck drivers are too idle and selfish to switch their cruise control off to let a fellow trucker in, even when they're running empty.

You've all seen it, the overtaker gets his back trailer axle level with the inside vehicle's cab, and gets stuck there. If he decides to abandon the manouevre he has to back off a truck-length and a half to pull in safely, which of course slows down traffic behind him causing concertina effect. If as is inevitably the case the car behind is so far up his tail that he can't see him he will be reluctant to make such a manoevre for fear of causing a shunt, creating the tailback.


Other driver only has to ease off for one second to give the gap necessary to let the overtaker in. No-brainer really.

As I've said before, a bit of consideration from ALL parties would make our lives easier. If the driver (truck OR car) behind the overtaker gives a bit of room it at least offers the overtaker another option.
Excluding HGVs from the outside lane - Harleyman
Harleyman please note the use of the exclamation mark !!! after the comment thus making
it a humourous one.

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I'm sorry, I'm not sure of what you're referring to; I don't recall having quoted or commented on one of your posts ?
 

Value my car