James, whilst you deserve credit for ALWAYS behaving in an exemplary manner yourself, I take exception to your use of the phrase, "MANY HGV drivers.... do not drive with the same courtesy."
SOME don't, I'll grant you that, and earn the contempt of their fellow drivers as a result. The vast majority, I would suggest, DO try to drive in a courteous manner, after all if they get reported for bad driving they risk losing their jobs, and unlike your car many HGV's have the firm's number on display.
It's always easy to blame the HGV driver. Many of you should check out John 8:7.
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According to my King James translation :-
"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
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Don't you think that's a bit harsh just for blocking the outside lane for mile after mile? Three points and a £60 fine would be fairer.
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Don't you think that's a bit harsh just for blocking the outside lane for mile after mile? Three points and a £60 fine would be fairer.
LOL! Don't start 'em off, I see hundreds of irate delayed motorists bearing flaming torches! ;-)
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According to my King James translation :- "So when they continued asking him he lifted up himself and said unto them He that is without sin among you let him first cast a stone at her."
Same as it says in mine; good taste in Bibles BTW, can't stand the modern junk! :-)
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>>>It's a job - a job which can be done well, but sadly one which is all too commonly done badly<<<<<
Just as the job of Lawyer, Doctor, Company Director etc of which all are classed as a profession by those who do them.
If all HGV's were restricted to the inside lane then how do you think you would ever join or leave a dual carriageway or motorway?
Or would you expect us to slow down and let you in, then try and get 44 tonnes back up to speed again on an incline?
One thing I was taught was tolerance, sadly not practiced by many HGV haters on here.
We all share the roads, yes,both lanes of them, we all pay our road tax to use them, yes BOTH lanes of them, we are also working while most car drivers are travelling to and from, in their own time.
The car drivers who use the roads as part of there job stand apart from the rest, by the courteous attitude they have both to HGV's and other road users, and we treat them with the respect they deserve too.
Gordon Bennett, I haven't changed my opinion either!
Pat
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On a slightly different subject I think All lorries should be banned from venturing out in snowy conditions.Last week all the problems around the snow hit areas were caused by lorrys unable to handle the conditions.As for the lorry driver interviewed and said yes it was a bit windy my artic wheels lifted off the road lots of times. Well was he just a bit stupid not to stop then.Or is this the normal thinking of the so called nits of the road
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I read through this happily agreeing with you till I got to the last sentence. Pity you had to spoil a sensible comment with an ignorant attitude.
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 03/02/2008 at 19:09
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Gordon Bennett I haven't changed my opinion either! Pat
Which opinion would that be pda, the idea that its ok for you to suggest someone else is too stressed or angry to use the roads, whilst not liking it when similar was suggested to you?
Or would you prefer to name call elsewhere and then have other posters opinions blocked and deleted when they don't agree with yours?
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Or would you prefer to name call elsewhere and then have other posters opinions blocked and deleted when they don't agree with yours?
Ah, she's good at that, and at getting threads locked on here when she stops getting her own way and ends up looking silly and hypocritical.
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>>If all HGV's were restricted to the inside lane then how do you think you would ever join or leave a dual carriageway or motorway?
By giving way, and merging. It's not difficult.
>>Or would you expect us to slow down and let you in, then try and get 44 tonnes back up to speed again on an incline?
I was thinking that the more belligerent truckers would soon begin throwing their weight, or "momentum" around!
a) if cars merge, there's no need for you slow down
b) if you do have to slow down, so what? Truck power to weight has never been as extravagant
I'm not a truck hater - I just don't like bullying truck drivers who think that their journey and occupation is somehow special.
Number_Cruncher
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For the record TU, all the decisions to lock previous threads on lorries were made by the Mods here simply because as per usual they degenerated into the usual bickering, name calling and backbiting that they normally descend into.
Locking was not influenced by anyone other than by people raising the usual tedious childlike behaviour that lorries and their drivers seem to bring out when discussed here. I was just about to post a warning on here now in respect of the personal sniping that's going on.
This is now the warning. Discuss this subject in a civilized way or it will be locked. That will be a Moderator decision based on our own discretion and not influenced by any third parties ither than HJ. Got it ?
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Strange, not what your email to me last time said!!!!!
Got it!
no need to quote the entire post....!
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 03/02/2008 at 21:26
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I drive around 30k miles PA, its rare to see an artic being driven badly, but as they;re so big, when it happens everyone notices.
Its also very clear that driving anything for a living is a job and not a profession.
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I drive around 30k miles PA its rare to see an artic being driven badly but as they;re so big when it happens everyone notices.
I agree. Apart from the overtaking on hill bit, HGVs are driven usually very well. Possibly because of the extra tests. Having said that, I am glad that there wasn't a car parked on the hard shoulder of the M40 yesterday, as it would have been squashed by the HGV. I think that the driver might have been taking off his jumper and veered well over.
The thing that does surprise me about HGVs is when they pull out to overtake causing you to brake hard when there are no other cars behind you. They could just have let you by. I know that cars do it very often but I thought trucks would be better.
Going back to the OP, isn't there a law about this? I know that agricultural vehicles are bound by law not to hold up traffic but would the same law apply to HGVs?
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Why is it that bullies on the road are always the hgv's?
What about the high speed drivers (cars) who sit in the outside lane and try to force others (who are overtaking legitimately) out of their way? They are just as bad at bullying tactics and causing holdups for others by forcing cars into small gaps in the middle lane etc that then cause a following car to brake, and the car behind and the car behind etc, etc, etc. That also causes a rolling roadblock and potentially major accidents.
But it is always hgv overtaking that brings out the nasty and pompous attitudes ?
Edited by yorkiebar on 03/02/2008 at 21:27
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If all HGV's were restricted to the inside lane then how do you think you would ever join or leave a dual carriageway or motorway?
Or would you expect us to slow down and let you in then try and get 44 tonnes back up to speed again on an incline?
One thing I was taught was tolerance sadly not practiced by many HGV haters on here.
interesting post PDA. Are you suggesting that it might be the norm in circumstances where lorries are not allowed in an outside lane..for a lorry driver up a hill to decline to let someone in, because they'd be less worried about road safety and driving courteously ... than...keeping their momentum up at all costs? How unprofessional and dangerous might that be? Where would that thinking end?
I've posted some comments on here that might well be construed as negative..but i'm certainly not an HGV driver hater, not anywhere near. In fact i think most are good drivers, aware of their surroundings, plan ahead, good forward vision, etc.... but...some 'let the side down' and it's a pity that there's the mentality of 'support at all costs' instead of recognising the problems in your own field
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.....and i don't think for one moment all cars drivers are perfect either...they're not
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I've posted some comments on here that might well be construed as negative..but i'm certainly not an HGV driver hater not anywhere near. In fact i think most are good drivers aware of their surroundings plan ahead good forward vision etc.... but...some 'let the side down' .
Thank you Westpig. Most of us do try to do our best and I agree that some let us down.
It is the tarring of all with the same brush that I object to. Truck driving may nowadays be a lot easier in some ways (and thank goodness for that) but I was always taught that if you cannot do something yourself then you should moderate your criticism of those who can. Having read some of the comments on this and other threads I am sure the posters concerned do not hold an HGV licence, for which small mercy I am grateful. ;-)
BTW, personally I don't see the point of caravans but as long as their drivers tow them safely and responsibly then they've as much right to the road as I have. Again it is a few that let the side down.
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I think that you will find that driving a truck is a highly skilled profession, hence making us Professional Drivers.
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>>driving a truck is a highly skilled profession
Not really.
My father and cousin got their licence via grandfather rights - neither of them took a test.
I got my class 1 after a 1 week course from Greenline in Burnley, taking my test from Steeton on the Friday, and was out driving for a Rochdale based agency the following week. I don't think real professions are so easy to get into.
I do agree that there is skill involved, and that driving a truck isn't trivial or easy, but, to call it a profession is a mis-use of the word - driving is a job.
Number_Cruncher
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No a job is something that anyone could do at the drop of a hat, like working on a production line. Not everyone has what it takes to drive a car let alone a 44 tonne truck safely.
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Working on a production line will take some training. As will driving a lorry. Manning a checkout in a supermarket typically takes 2-3 days training before you are unleashed onto the public.
I drive a car and van. Pretty sure with half an hours training I could drive a lorry up and down a motorway all day long in the inside lane. Might need more training for reversing into tight spaces mind you.
Would need more training again to drive a crane that I then need to use all the lifting controls on. But a highly skilled profession, don't think so.
Edited by BobbyG on 03/02/2008 at 23:22
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Half an hours training, yeah pull the other one :D
Experienced with driving motors with 16 gears then?
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I think Bobby's not too far off. Driving a modern truck on a motorway isn't particularly difficult. 16 gears aren't hard - it's not as if all 16 have their own position in a huge elongated gate - it's usually just a 4 speed H pattern with a couple of switches on the side of the gear lever. Many car users are already using a 6 position gate.
Picking your way through heavy traffic, moving safely along a busy high street, reversing into tight spaces, especially on your blind side, changing trailers, ensuring the safety and security of the load - yes, that does take skill.
But then most jobs demand skill - it's understood.
Number_Cruncher
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I've got certain reservations about the titling of my job, so i call myself a steering wheel attendant, there does that satisfy the snipers.
Lets be honest any fool can jump into a modern truck and drive it quite competently in a straight line at whatever warp speed you could get it to go at, thats part of the problem modern trucks are too easy to drive, so numpty's get behind the wheel.
And a weeks course at joe bloggs driving academy a driver does not make, it means the trainee holds a licence because he/she has passed a test of some description (though some of the antics i see on the roads i think half the car or hgv testers need replacement).
When a hgv driver has been on the job for ten or more years with all sorts of different work, then they may start to call themselves truck drivers, this assuming they have managed to not cause mayhem.
Long term truck drivers, and i'm one so got me tin hat on, dont think driving 60 miles from a RDC to a supermarket with a loading bay the size of a small village and managing to reverse onto it in a straight line really constitutes the use of the term professional driver, any fool can do it, and some of them manage to destroy the premises theyve gone into anyway.
The trouble is thats what many drivers who consider themselves pro's have done from day one, and if you showed them a proper days work they would faint, i'm serious, when i worked for a small supermarket chain we had to make multi drops around London, no probs doddle, but some chaps would make such a song and dance about it, that one of the old softies like me would swap runs with them (and write 15 on our clock cards, they never had a clue), and let them do a straight hit Grimsby or something (not so many pretty things to look at up there either, no offence to that fair city, just London was more....interesting).
One of the problems in our industry is that there are so few proper time served transport managers left, we now have college trained logistic experts, and unfortunately they wouldn't know a lorry driver from a bar of soap, nor are most of them capable of common sense vehicle operations, but by golly they are wizard on a computer.
Rant over.
PU, the other poster had probs with another forum as well, and you know which one i refer to.
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>>And a weeks course at joe bloggs driving academy a driver does not make
Fully agree. The HGV driving I did was very much temporary and short term. I wanted to make the jump from mechanic to engineer, and needed part time, temporary work to keep some income coming in while at college and university. No garage in their right mind takes on temporary mechanics - the risks are too great, so I chose a reasonably well paid job I could get into quickly.
I'm certainly no expert truck driver (I made a few mistakes! but the only people who don't make mistakes are those who do nothing!) - but I know enough to know that some truck driving posters on theis thread (with honourable exceptions, TU & GB) try to mislead car drivers, using false arguments, covering up their poor driving habits.
Number_Cruncher
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some truck driving posters on theis thread (with honourable exceptions TU & GB)>>
Number Cruncher, could you through your engineering contacts, get TU and yours truly a competitive quote for replacement double doors so we can get our heads through!!!
Aw shucks i'm all coy now.
Your right on with many points though, and it does annoy me the certainty that whichever camp one come's from, your fellows are so blessed perfect.
Oilrag, i see you're chucking the odd grenade in still.
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A lot of supermarkets do have very tight spaces for a wagon to park into a loading bay, you'll be suprised how many drivers with so many years experienced can't get into our shop without making sure the front of the tractor unit is not hitting the fence opposite or hitting the shutter with the trailer.
Talking about HGV's driving on the outside lane, many supermarket wagons are usually found in the inside being overtaken by other trucks because a majority of the trucks are between 310-380 bhp so when fully laden at about 40-tonne they don't get up the hills quickly as a 500bhp truck would perhaps.
Not forgetting many supermarket drivers are hourly paid, so they arn't always in a rush unless their legal tacho hours are running out.
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>>>> Talking about HGV's driving on the outside lane many supermarket wagons are usually found inthe inside being overtaken by other trucks because a majority of the trucks are between 310-380 bhp so when fully laden at about 40-tonne they don't get up the hills quickly as a 500bhp truck would perhaps. Not forgetting many supermarket drivers are hourly paid so they arn't always in a rush unless their legal tacho hours are running out.
Close but no cigar. Trolleys, as they're known, are rarely if ever on maximum payload so they don't need the bigger engines. Most of them run at lower GVW's to benefit from cheaper excise duty. They tend to haul roll cages which are usually (though not always) bulky rather than heavy.
As for pay, the trend is nowadays towards salary, Working Time Directive has made it virtually impossible to recruit hourly-paid drivers unless they're on agency.
The reason you get stuck behind Tesco's artics is simple; their drivers are GPS tracked and face disciplinary action if they break the speed limit. Since Tesco are not in competition with other hauliers they have no reason to rush, and apparently it has done wonders for their insurance premiums.
One of the more entertaining ways of passing a few minutes on a single-carriageway road is to follow such a truck at a distance and place bets on how many car drivers try to commit suicide by overtaking where they really shouldn't. Oddly enough they don't tend to do that if the lorry's (illegally) being driven at 50 or 55.
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Harleyman, please note the use of the exclamation mark !!! after the comment thus making it a humourous one.
As for being able to drive an artic up a motorway after an hours training, yes you could, but how would you fare getting to and from that motorway?
Professional is an attitude, some have it and some drivers never will.
It takes years and years of mistakes to learn this trade ( and that's what it is).
Driving is such a small part of the job but the only part you usually see us do, and yet you're happy to tar us all with the same brush.
Pat
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"and yet you're happy to tar us all with the same brush."
As in an `open letter` perhaps? ;)
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The times I get most annoyed, which is rare is always on the 2 lane sections between, M20 nearing the M25, why lorries feel the need to start overtaking within 2 miles of a 3 lane section, when waiting a little bit wouldn't cause any hold ups, and the bit between m3 and m27, and finally on the hills of the A34 .
A solution to all concerned would be, all lorries have their weights on a board at the back so they know their 10 ton lorry should find it easier to overtake a 28 ton lorry when going up hill
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>>A solution to all concerned would be, all lorries have their weights on a board at the >>back so they know their 10 ton lorry should find it easier to overtake a 28 ton lorry >>when going up hill.
All thats needed is the driver of the overtaking vehicle to drive withinin the capabilities of his vehicle, not with his foot hard to the floor struggling to get the last limited revs out of the engine.
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A lorry driver comes up behind a slower vehicle and pulls out to overtake at the start of a long hill. But the power and gearing characteristics of the vehicles differ, so the slower vehicle maintains its speed and the overtaking one struggles to pull ahead. But if either driver eases off, then they lose power, have to drop a gear or two, and take longer to get up the hill.
One of the main reasons for the existence of our trunk road and motorway network is for the transport of freight. Lorry drivers have a tough job to do - I know, I've been one.
Side-by-side lorries on a 2-lane dual carriageway might be a nuisance but it's just something we should all be prepared to put up with.
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This argument keeps coming up time and again. I think it's completely false.
If I start to overtake someone on the motorway by using lane 3, and that person speeds up, the I don't sit there for ever next to them blocking the road. Now, it's a personal decision not to go any faster as I don't want to risk my license, but I'll back off slightly and pull back in, not block the road for anyone that might want to get (illegally) past me.
With trucks it's even more inconsiderate, as those wanting past could quite legally be going a lot quicker. It's simply putting maintaining momentum before all else - a point that can become an obsession, and one that I fell out with an instructor very badly over once.
He wanted me to pull my chronically underpowered minibus onto roundabouts with far too little space and in gaps that were far too tight. He was obsessed with not killing the speed of the vehicle. I maintained all the way to a disciplinary panel that I was far more interested in not killing myself, my passengers or anyone else.
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Harleyman please note the use of the exclamation mark !!! after the comment thus making it a humourous one.
Really? A smiley is more obvious than an exclamation mark.
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This is a classic example of 'The tragedy of the commons'.
The HGV driver derives a benefit from over taking every vehicle he catches up with, no matter how long it takes, but that benefit is smaller than the sum of the losses to the car drivers who wish to travel faster.
It's no good asking the HGV driver not to do it, as he stands to lose roughly 15 mins each 4 and a half hour shift (from experience of travelling in convoy in Europe with identical trucks), you may as well ask him to take a reduction either in wages, as he is less productive over his working week, or in quality of life as every now and then he ends up half an hour from home at the end of his shift.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
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It's no good asking the HGV driver not to do it, as he stands to lose roughly 15 mins each 4 and a half hour shift...[by not overtaking at every opportunity]
I understand the conundrum WB, but if such a tiny advantage gained is representatvie, it seems even more short sighted & inconsiderate - for the small 'forced' advantage gained by the technique, much more (time/money) must be lost by othe road users' withdrawal of goodwill when made to endure it.
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Actually 15 minutes overplays the loss under the current system.
fps_at1mph=1760*3/3600
fps_at1mph =
1.4667
L=100; time=L/fps_at1mph
time =
68.1818
OK, so a 1mph difference gives a 70 second overtake, so, once you have over 2mph difference, you have a 35 second overtake, which only the more extreme would object to.
If you ban overtaking, then, yes, I agree with the 15 minute figure. But, if the industry gets its own house in order, and stops making rolling roadblock overtakes, it will only lose out on the overtakes with 1mph difference or less - over a 4.5 hour stint, that's 4.5 miles, which is less than the 15 minute delivery slot being mentioned in another thread - i.e., not an issue.
Number_Cruncher
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The 15 mins comes from experience - electing to stay with the convoy who over take everything, or following along at my own pace. There's a little more to it as your calculations don't allow for over running the limiter on down grades - if you are stuck in a gaggle of trucks you often have to feather the brakes going downhill, and there are also delays caused by the gaggle catching a slow moving vehicle, and then each truck in turn waiting for a gap in the offside lane to move out.
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Yes, my calcs would assume that things like over-running would apply equally to all trucks. In practice, I tended to be more of the laissez les bon temps roulez school as opposed to the more brake happy driver.
In the case you cite, going along at your own pace is putting you at about 3mph behind the overtake everything group.
The main thrust of my point was that it's only when speed differences approach the 1mph level that rolling roadblocks develop, and it's exactly these speed differences that cause no great loss to either driver - i.e., the rolling roadblocks are not only a hindrance to other road users, they are truly pointless.
Where there is a reasonable speed difference, there is a gain to be had by overtaking, and the overtake will be swift, and relatively painless for those following.
Number_Cruncher
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I agree NC, but perversely the greater the general congestion, the greater the gain to the over taking truck - which then makes the congestion worse.
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WB, there is a gain by the truck, and a loss to the cars. However, it is not as straight forward as simply quantifying the gains and losses, as the HGV is operating under constraints imposed by the hours rules, whereas the cars have the opportunity to make up their losses by having a longer journey.
It may be the case that by driving a truck in this manner, the gain to the economy is greater than the loss suffered by the cars. We'd need a proper economist to work this out for us, I think.
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>>'The tragedy of the commons'.
Weird. Before today, I had never heard of this model. Now it's just cropped up again, I've just had an email flyer round about a talk on the growth of bio-films, "Modelling social interactions in biofilms", describing the competition between fast growing bits of slime, and slow growing bits of slime for the same food.
Number_Cruncher
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..describing the competition between fast growing bits of slime, and slow growing bits of slime for the same food.
There's probably a highly advanced society of aliens on planet Z+0?//<*g's analysing that very data & coming to the same conclusions about us, gleened from their recent 'visit' here.
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Back to the subject; even as a trucker myself I do have to say that it's sometimes not a case of keeping a truck on the limiter, some truck drivers are too idle and selfish to switch their cruise control off to let a fellow trucker in, even when they're running empty.
You've all seen it, the overtaker gets his back trailer axle level with the inside vehicle's cab, and gets stuck there. If he decides to abandon the manouevre he has to back off a truck-length and a half to pull in safely, which of course slows down traffic behind him causing concertina effect. If as is inevitably the case the car behind is so far up his tail that he can't see him he will be reluctant to make such a manoevre for fear of causing a shunt, creating the tailback.
Other driver only has to ease off for one second to give the gap necessary to let the overtaker in. No-brainer really.
As I've said before, a bit of consideration from ALL parties would make our lives easier. If the driver (truck OR car) behind the overtaker gives a bit of room it at least offers the overtaker another option.
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Harleyman please note the use of the exclamation mark !!! after the comment thus making it a humourous one.
>>
I'm sorry, I'm not sure of what you're referring to; I don't recall having quoted or commented on one of your posts ?
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