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OK in an old generation diesel. I wouldn't use it in my common rail though.
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In an old style diesel I don't think you need to do anything, other than filter out the bits of burnt chip. There are internet sites explaining how to make very simple heat exchangers for warming the oil before it reaches the engine. In winter, just add a bit of real diesel, or petrol.
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A friend of mine is on the lookout for a Hilux Surf to convert to a chip-burner :)
Are they VED exempt when converted, or is it just the cost of fuel that's making it attractive?
L
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Private users can make up to 2,500 l of bio for their own use, without paying HMRC any road fuel duty or VAT. They still need to have an RFL/ tax disc.
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"warming the oil"
Just fill up at the chippy, perhaps!
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"In an old style diesel I don't think you need to do anything, other than filter out the bits of burnt chip."
I have a 1997 1.9 XUD. Does this mean I can simple pop down to the shops, get the best deal on vegetable oil and simply pour it in the tank and drive off.
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>>I have a 1997 1.9 XUD. Does this mean I can simple pop down to the
>>shops, get the best deal on vegetable oil and simply pour it in the tank and
>>drive off.
Provided it complies with the biodiesel regs, then yes. (See link from link to a previous post of mine below.
I want to know if you can put RED diesel straight into your tank, albeit mixed with a teaspoon of olive oil in order to turn it into a biodiesel blend. See my earlier post.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=54...8
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Can you cook in red diesel..?
:-)
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Can you cook in red diesel..?
Not unless you like the unusual taste; but you can cook with red diesel [gas oil.]
Many farmers use the stuff piped straight from their bulk tank to the Aga.
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"Many farmers use the stuff piped straight from their bulk tank to the Aga."
no they most certainly dont ,the diesel in any form red or otherwise is not a vaporising oil and will simply soot up an aga type cooker and anyway red diesel is more expensive than proper kerosene or 28 light oil so it would be a bit more expensive to do
there may be other type cookers with a pressure burner which can use diesel but it causes problems even if the tanker driverflushes some red amongst the kero in our aga
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I know for certain that at least one of my farmer customers installed a diesel-burning "Aga." They were marketed specifically for this niche, about 20 years ago, in the Farmer's Weekly. Can't say I ever inquired as to the exact nature of the burner.
A few pennies more per litre fade into insignificance compared with the cost of installing another, environmentally-approved, tank - and the fact that red diesel deliveries will be listed as tractor fuel and thus tax-deductable.....
Old farmers rarely miss a trick....
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>Does this mean I can simple pop down to the shops, get the best deal on vegetable oil and simply pour it in the tank and drive off.
Basically, yes, though I'm not sure if HMRC are happy with that. You'd need to check their website. You'd certainly need to keep receipts for seven years...
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I want to know if you can put RED diesel straight into your tank, albeit mixed with a teaspoon of olive oil in order to turn it into a biodiesel blend. See my earlier post.
I believe there is a subtle but staunch difference between in using a zero duty rated 'RED' diesel (for exempt businesses/business use) & using homemade SVO or biodiesel although the net result, in excise duty is the same. I'm no expert (but I do keep fairly up-to-date on VAT issues for my business) I imagine the 'RED' diesel is only for use in exempt vehicles with no p.a. volume/quantity restriction.
I would say be prepared for the full & awful majesty of the law from the Excise Men should they find any RED in your tank!
For the definitve answer - ring up HMRC (helpline number on their website)
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I think HMRC have covered the red issue - the duty-exempt home-made bio has to be wholly made from vegetable sources AFAIK.
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Before you all get tempted to start brewing your own diesel in an unused corner of your garage, let me say biodiesel is horrible stuff to work with.
There was an ongoing project into making biodiesel from vegetable oil byproduct when I was a chemistry undergrad - I had the misfortune to share a lab with some of the people involved in my final year. The stuff got everywhere, was impossible to clean up and stank to high heaven. It also had a nasty habit of ruining every piece of lab equipment it came into contact with (foaming was a recurring problem!)
In fact, it was so unpleasant to have around, that after three months I absconded not just to another lab but to another department to get away from the stuff!
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I know the conventional way of making bio-diesel involves caustic soda and leaving the oil to settle for several days in order to separate properly, but can anyone else remember the method shown on Clarkson years ago where the bloke just filtered the oil through a cloth, and put paint-thinners in it and re-filtered it? Does this method thin the oil sufficiently?
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the method shown on Clarkson years ago where the bloke just filtered the oil through a cloth and put paint-thinners in it and re-filtered it? Does this method thin the oil sufficiently?
The white spirit was supposed to take a week to "break down" the oil and thin it IIRC?
Using white spirit is now frowned upon by HMRC, their website says:
"...White spirit is not approved for use as a road fuel. If white spirit is added to Straight Vegetable Oil (SVO) or used in biodiesel production the whole batch would be rendered liable to duty at the ultra low sulphur diesel rate..."
Better to use petrol, apparently:
tinyurl.com/yoysbt
But that only gives you thinned veg oil, not "biodiesel".
;o)
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"White spirit is not approved for use as a road fuel."
What if it was turpentine? Wrong sort of white spirit, perhaps. Do they mean surgical spirit?
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a peugeot xud lump will run fine on 100% veg oil if it has a bosch fuel pump. most people recommend not using it on lucas pumps as they use diesel for lubrication which it doesn't get sufficiently from veg oil, although i ran mine at 50% mix with normal diesel and never had any problems
chris
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Hi ,
does anyone know if you can use waste cooking ( chip ) oil , in a mix with regular diesel after it has been strained ?
anyone tried it ?
thanks
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I believe you can but the straining process has to be very thorough and may involve other kinds of processing (heating, adding stuff). I don't think pouring it through a wire colander will do the trick, or even an old cotton sheet. There's some special stuff you have to strain it through and I seem to remember it's quite expensive.
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I've posted this before, (link in my post further up this thread). Still nobody has bitten.
Link to HMRC site: tinyurl.com/yocb8e
'Bioblend' means any mixture that is produced by mixing:
Biodiesel; and
heavy oil that has not been charged with the excise duty on hydrocarbon oil."
Now, I in no way hold myself out to be a fuel duty expert. But isn't this latter heavy oil just 'red diesel'?
So rightly or wrongly it struck me that provided you add a teaspoon of vegetable oil to your red diesel tank you have created a bioblend which you can use in your car. Any comment?
The above link points out that there are pretty stringent definitions of suitable diesel and that you have to fall within them in order to have created biodiesel. By using (virtually) pure red diesel you can be pretty confident that your recipe 'works' in terms of the law.
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No Mapmaker, the document is relating to the taxation and documentation for businesses with respect to ?Biodiesel and bioblend for use other than as road fuel?.
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wrongly or rightly I thought that if used cooking oil was properly strained and mixed with regular diesel in the correct proportion then the qualities of the diesel would be enough without any extra additives , has anyone tried this or am I a bit off track ?
tia
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It just seems wrong to me to put unused cooking oil in your car's fuel tank when cooking oil is one of the things needed to help feed people in starving countries.
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Read my post again - I said USED cooking oil !
Edited by Saintetienne on 04/06/2008 at 09:15
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I use up to 100% filtered used cooking oil in my 405 TD. It is filtered through three stages down to 1 micron. No heating or additives used in the preparation. I bought 1000l of it for £400 delivered. The other day at 80% veg oil I ran 528 miles without the fuel light coming on - best ever on straight diesel was around 520.
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I saw an ex colleague last week and he runs his 1996 Clio on filtered oil. Has done for the last couple of years covering 30,000 miles (car now on 150,000 miles) and he does a trip from Yorkshire to Cornwall every 6-8 weeks.
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It's nothing miraculous at all. It just means that the price of cooking oil will approach that of "real" diesel fuel.
Go back about two/three years - I could buy rape oil (Pura Vegetable Oil 1 Litre) for 23p/L.
Just now, I looked it up on Tesco's website, and it's £1.07/L. It's because people fuel their cars with it.
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I use up to 100% filtered used cooking oil in my 405 TD. It is filtered through three stages down to 1 micron. No heating or additives used in the preparation. I bought 1000l of it for £400 delivered.
Hear him, hear him.
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I have a later 1.9 dci engine - I think the viscosity which is acceptable for your pug would be too thick for me - I am not sure whether I would be best to mix with regular diesel or add a small amount of petrol to thin down some , anyone tried these ?
tia
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Saintetienne
It's never a good idea to use any type of home-brew in a common-rail; old-tech diesels only.
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Screwloose ,
thanks for the feedback - the car is an 03 alfa with 1.9 jtd (bosch) 8v 115 bhp , do you think this is still too advanced for veggie oil ?
cheers
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That should be an EDC 15C - not suited to anything but pump diesel. Do not put even think of adding even trace amounts of petrol to it's feedstock.
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Fair comment , would any veggie mix suit this or not ?
what would the problems be ?
cheers
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In a word; no.
Potentially terminally expensive. Google common-rail and you'll see how fragile these systems are compared to the agricultural pumps.
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Thanks for the info, as I have a good supply of veggie oil I guess the smart move would be to covert it to biodiesel ?
cheers
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Saintetienne - how good is your supply of veg oil? Anywhere near Oxfordshire? I'll have any surplus. It's worth 50p/l in bulk if it's liquid at 15 deg C. Might be easier for you to collect it, flog it, and use derv from the pump with the proceeds! I can use straight/mixed veg oil so I'm not interested in biodiesel production.
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Read my post again - I said USED cooking oil !
Calm down Saintetienne. I wasn't replying to your post. At the time of my post you just happened to have been the last person to have posted in this thread so my post automatically came directly after yours. If I'd have wanted to reply to your post I would have made reference to your post ~ as I have done this time. I was merely making a general comment on the practice of buying cooking oil specifically to put in a car's fuel tank ~ which some people do.
Edited by L'escargot on 04/06/2008 at 10:39
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I wasn't replying to your post.
You were, actually. View threaded, and you will see. I assume that if you click "reply" to the article you want to reply to when viewing "flat", this will in fact work properly.
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>> I wasn't replying to your post. You were actually. View threaded and you will see. I assume that if you click "reply" to the article you want to reply to when viewing "flat" this will in fact work properly.
OK, so please tell me exactly where I should put a post which is making a general comment and which is not a reply to someone else's post. I'm always ready to learn, especially as on this occasion I seem to have got a certain person all riled up.
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Difficult, isn't it! Apart from putting "This is a general comment and not intended to reference the previous post or rile the previous posted, or indeed any posted, living or dead", it doesn't look as though much can be done (start a new thread?). I don't think 'eee's really riled, though.
Oh, by the way, "this post isn't intended to rile anyone and is intended to be read in a general context" ;) !
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does anyone know if you can use waste cooking (chip) oil,
Whether you can safely use 100% oil or a blend of oil/diesel depends on what car it is?
Cooking oil is a lot more viscous than diesel so it depends on the injection system whether it will run on a thicker fuel.
Any blend will still be more viscous than diesel, if you make a blend with 5% cooking oil/ 95% diesel it may be thin enough for your car, but you're hardly saving any money.
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That is a very valid point a 5 or 10 % mix of used cooking oil with regularly diesel is not a worthwhile exercise - is anyone usung a 50/50 or 40/60 mix of used oil with regular diesel and on what car , with what success ?
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 04/06/2008 at 19:57
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So rightly or wrongly it struck me that provided you add a teaspoon of vegetable oil to your red diesel tank you have created a bioblend which you can use in your car. Any comment?
I dont know much about it Mapmaker, but isnt red diesel a whole different kettle of fish?
According to HMRC definitions, for Red diesel it says "see MGO".
MGO - "Marked (rebated) Gas Oil. Gas oil that is dyed and chemically marked to attract the rebated rate of duty. (Not for use as road fuel)."
So they refer to red as 'gas oil', not 'heavy oil' as mentioned in the bioblend definition.
If you want the definitive answer you could try emailing HMRC, but I bet the response would be negative.
In the past I've spent some time browsing biodiesel and veg oil forums and I've never seen anyone say, "save loads of money - use red diesel in your bioblend".
Edited by Rich 9-3 on 04/06/2008 at 14:06
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The Red diesel debate is a bit academic as it's being withdrawn. HMRC will give rebates to agricultural users on a quarterly arrears basis. Farmers will have to buy white diesel.
You can't use red in a bioblend for obvious reasons, unless you are allowed to use red as you are an agricultural/off road user.
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I should add that waste veg oil has shot up in price since I bought at £350.00 plus £50 delivery. It's now more like £600. For once in my life I got the market right!
Heating is only really needed to speed up water removal, but you can just settle the water out, and most of the solids, by leaving for a few weeks and taking from the top.
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do you mix at all with regular diesel or additives or just filter - what vehicle are you running ? ,
cheers
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>>You can't use red in a bioblend for obvious reasons,
Which are???
I take the point that red diesel has now been (pretty much) abolished, but cannot help but wonder whether it is for this reason.
Is heating oil a suitable substitute? Again, mixed with a tablespoon of cooking oil.
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You can't use red in any vehicle other than a farm tractor/combine, except for a vehicle that never goes on the highway, such as a barge or a ride-on tractor.
You can't use any non duty-paid substance in a road vehicle tank, except exempt biodiesel and veg oil. This includes turps, kero or any other thinners. If you get your tank dipped by HMCR and they detect anything other than biodiesel, veg oil, derv or petrol they'll seize it, crush it, and have you in court before you can blink.
I'm not sure why you think mixing with any quantity of veg oil makes kero legal - read the regs.
I mix with up to 60% derv in cold weather - the waste veg oil is very viscous. Fresh veg oil is thinner, and I could run 75% of that even when 0 C.
Edited by oldnotbold on 04/06/2008 at 21:59
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Hi there everyone, this is my first time on the site and hope you guys help a very naive person regard bio fuel.I have a Vauxhall Vectra SRI CDTI on a 55 plate.I want to have a go at using diesel bio fuel but not sure how to go about it. Is it possible to go to a garage and fill up with a percentage diesel/bio fuel, or can I actually go to a supermarket and buy regular vegtable oil and just put it in thetank without any adaption? I am aware that theres a garage in Liverpool that do bio fuel(i live in warrington),but hope I can just put oil in myself from Tescos/asda etc. I may sound stupid, but this is why I am on this site, hoping you guys can help a simple guy.I am so angry at the prices at the pumps for diesel that I will try anything to cut my costs. Please help a regular guy with my woes.Thanks
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Vegetable oil isn't biodiesel. Biodiesel is made from vegetable oil which has had the glycerol etc... removed. Glycerol doesn't burn in an engine and makes the oil thicker at temperatures lower than ~70deg C than diesel or biodiesel.
Every engine is different. All can run on 5%, and some makes of diesel already contain 5% biodiesel, (all in France). It is unlikely your car will be allowed by Vauxhall to run high percentages of biodiesel as it is too new a design, and modern emission reduction system are fouled by it. Is yours a 3.0 2.2 or 1.9 CDTI?
Edited by Hamsafar on 01/07/2008 at 01:16
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To quote from the Vectra handbook:
Diesel engines must be operated only on commercially available diesel fuel meeting the specifications of DIN EN 590.
Since January 2004, some oil companies have mixed their diesel fuel with upto 5% Bio fuel (FAME = Fatty Acid Methyl Esters) like RME (Rape-Oil Methyl Ester). This is in accordance with the current DIN EN 590 and does not harm the fuel/injection system. The characteristics of a diesel fuel mixed up with 5% Bio fuel (FAME) do not differ from conventional diesel fuel and do not influence the vehicle?s driveability.
Important: Diesel fuel mixed with 5% FAME according to DIN EN 590 must not be confused with 100% Bio Diesel, which is not to be used in Vauxhall engines.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 01/07/2008 at 01:37
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so why did it show quinton wilson pour veg oil straight into a vauxhall diesel on the telly earlier last night?
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What car was it? I bet it wasn't a common rail diesel engine.
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What car was it? I bet it wasn't a common rail diesel engine.
A 1.7 Astra (van) estate I think- not sure of the letters after the numbers.
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Thanks for the reply so quickly.My Vectra is a 19.00 cdti. How do I go about setting up my vehicle so I can go Bio fuel.As I said before, I dont know where to start.
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Thanks for the reply so quickly.My Vectra is a 19.00 cdti. How do I go about setting up my vehicle so I can go Bio fuel.As I said before I dont know where to start.
Fortunately for you. Re-read Dynamic Dave's post and then tell us what part of it you cannot understand...
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To paraphrase DD's post.
You don't start anywhere - your car cannot use bio-diesel.
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