Dealers fighting back against BER

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Mon 20 Aug 2007 11:57
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
I think most BR's will be familiar with Block Exemption Regulations (which say that owners can have their car serviced outside the dealer network and still retain warranty cover - amongst other things). Well, it seems that dealers are fighting back against this.

I have just been told by a 'friend of a friend' that my local VW dealer has been told by VW (UK) that they should not turn off service indicators unless the car has been serviced by a VW dealer. Obviously, and indenpendent who services a car and doesn't have the dealer-only kit to turn off the service reminder is now 'stuck'. Similarly, customers of this VW dealer are told that if they take their car outside the dealer network for a service then they will not be allowed to use a courtesy car in future (for example during future service or repair work at the dealer). Although this doesn't infringe BER, its pushing it to the limit I think.

I gather a number of other dealers are about to take this sort of approach. We have also heard that some manufacturers are introducing very expensive tools to reset service indicators that connect back to the factory. The car's ECU incorporates software so that the service indicator cannot be easily reset if the interval has been exceeded by more than 500 miles. A 'special procedure' has to be applied by the dealer (at a cost I guess!) to get authorisation from the manufacturer (MB was mentioned) to reset the indicator. Ostensibly this is to protect the car manuf. against warranty claims where a car has not been serviced promptly.

Couple these moves with the introduction of 'coding' of virtually all electrical parts on the car and you can see that over the next few years technology is going to be used to give the dealers a manufacturers a stranglehold on servicing and repairs. They seem increasingly determined to squeeze out the independent repairer and prevent the use of spare parts that are 'recycled' or from other suppliers. Let's hope that the EU and OFT can redress things in favour of the consumer, otherwise motoring is going to get a lot more expensive.

I wonder if these manufacturers and dealers realise that their cars only have relatively good residuals because of the fact that there is an efficient 'parallel' network of independent parts suppliers and repairers. Kill this off, and a secondhand Merc, Audi, or BMW becomes a much less attractive proposition.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 12:44
Dealers fighting back against BER - Dalglish
... I have just been told by a 'friend of a friend' that my local VW dealer has been told by VW (UK) that they should not turn


and a friend of a friend of a friend of another friend has told me that these are alllegedly bunkum rumours. i don't believe one of the friends in this chain may be telling the whole truth though, but i have no evidence to prove it one way or the other.

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Mon 20 Aug 2007 12:53
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
>> ... I have just been told by a 'friend of a friend' that my
local VW dealer has been told by VW (UK) that they should not turn
and a friend of a friend of a friend of another friend has told me
that these are alllegedly bunkum rumours. i don't believe one of the friends in this
chain may be telling the whole truth though but i have no evidence to prove
it one way or the other.


Dalglish

The information is VERY reliable - but obviously I don't want to be too specific about its source.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 12:59
Dealers fighting back against BER - Dalglish
The information is VERY reliable - but obviously I don't want to be too specific about its source ..


in which case, worth taking it to an investigative journalist and/or reporting it to the competetion authorities. the eu regulators take such information very seriously, and can and do impose seriously hefty penalties where consumer interests are adversely affected.

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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:19
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
in which case worth taking it to an investigative journalist and/or reporting it to the
competetion authorities. the eu regulators take such information very seriously and can and do impose
seriously hefty penalties where consumer interests are adversely affected.


Well, aparantly it is now VAG policy - no reset without showing an official VAG invoice for the service. It affects '05-on VAG CANbus cars. I imagine its the kind of thing that someone like HJ could confirm very easily with a call to VW UK. Obviously this will have an impact beyond warranty because unless the car owner is happy to drive around with the service indicator ON then he'll have to go to VW for all future servicing.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 12:48
Dealers fighting back against BER - csgmart
I'm far from an expert but I think any moves by the manufacturers to prevent independants from effectively servicing cars etc will eventually come up against EU rules and they will clamp down on them hard enough to make them back down.

Personally I wouldn't mind taking my car to a main dealer to be serviced IF the price is reasonable, the service is done properly and I am treated as a customer should be. Sadly all 3 of these items tend to be lacking in [what appears to be] the majority of dealerships.

As soon as my car is out of the 3 year manufacturers warranty it's off to an independant I go. I know I could do it sooner but I just can be bothered with any hassle if anything were to go wrong.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 12:52
Dealers fighting back against BER - Bill Payer
While the car is in warranty, I think servicing packages are the way forward. MB does a fairly reasonably priced one that pretty well covers everything for 6yrs or 120K miles.

My daughter's Ibiza was covered by a VAG service, maint & tyres package for 3 yrs for less than £20/mth.

Mitsubishi now do service only (probably all it will need) for the Colt at £150 for 3 yrs.


Once the car is out of warranty then it becomes less of an issue.


I've always believed that residuals in the UK were amongst the worst in Europe, so anything that affects residuals is likely to hit our continental cousins harder than us (and therefore is likely to get the EU's attention).


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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:09
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
Two responses to the above:

1. The 'service packages' are simply another way of undermining the independents and BER. Obvously the independent cannot compete with the price of the 'service package' - since it is being sold way below actual cost. The manufacturer is simply inflating the cost of the car and then handing back part of the money in the form of a subsidised 'service package' offer. The manufacturers 'buy' hours in advance from the dealerships and then sell them to the customer at less than they cost. Personally I would think that this breaks competition law, but I'm no expert. Once the independent sector has been all but wiped out, you'll find that the 'service package' offers very quickly disappear.

2. The retail motor industry in continental Europe is structured somewhat differently from the UK. In general European dealerships are much less closely tied to manufacturers, and the manufacturers exert much less control. So, for example, it is not unusual for franchised dealers to repair cars using aftermarket rather than OE parts, if the customer wants. Similarly labour rates tend to be far lower because the business model is different and most new cars are sold to private customers rather than companies, so there is far more pressure to keep costs down.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:24
Dealers fighting back against BER - Bill Payer
since it is being sold way below actual cost.


I don't think that's generally correct - the Merc one is dear if the car only ever needs routine servicing, its the repair element (vs the cost of an extended warranty) that makes it seem reasonable.

We've almost certainly lost money on the VAG Ibiza contract - the car has only needed routine servicing (an oil change really) and bf at 2yrs. It's even only got through 2 tyres rather than the 4 I expected.

2. The retail motor industry in continental Europe is structured somewhat differently from the UK.


Therefore would it possible for the changes you suggest to be restricted to the UK? Seems to me that if things llike factory only service reset are introduced then surely that would apply across Europe.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:29
Dealers fighting back against BER - jase1
All this will do is provide a new opportunity for IT experts to hack the systems on the affected cars and supply aftermarket fixes to switch the indicators off.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 17:26
Dealers fighting back against BER - pmh
See my comments from a previous thread on hacking ECU code and writing replacement code

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?v=e&t=54...4


however if the manufacturers start implementing 'on line verification' for service record purposes it may make life a little more complicated for people wishing to maintain a FSH.


--

pmh (was peter)


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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:30
Dealers fighting back against BER - Xileno {P}
Even if this does go ahead, then I'm sure some enterprising clever person will find a way around the technology and be able to switch the VAG light off. Remember the BMW service interval indicators of 20 years ago? Wasn't long before someone found a way of restting all those to green with nothing more complext than a piece of wire. Official 'boxes' came on to the market soon after for £20 or £30.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:32
Dealers fighting back against BER - daveyjp
"It affects '05-on VAG CANbus cars"

So how come my 2008 build A3 handbook tells you how to reset the service indicators?
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:45
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
So how come my 2008 build A3 handbook tells you how to reset the service
indicators?


?? Are you sure its 2008 and CANbus.....?
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:40
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
>> since it is being sold way below actual cost.
I don't think that's generally correct


It is correct, honestly. I know this because I have spoken to people from dealerships (at local IMI 'bashes') who are negotiating the costs with 'their' manufacturers. Obviously the manufacturers are trying to buy the blocks of workshop hours from the dealers as cheaply as possible and the dealers have to negotiate hard for the best rates (for them). On the average most drivers will gain by using a package; the BMW/Mini and Mitsubishi packages, for example, are obviously not economic at retail labour rates and involve a subsidy (its known as 'manufacturer support').

>> 2. The retail motor industry in continental Europe is structured somewhat differently from the
UK.

Seems to me that if things llike factory only service reset are introduced then surely
that would apply across Europe.


Yes, it would. The point I was making that the impact would be less in Europe because of the different structure. In most of Europe the dealers are more like 'specialist independents', and have much more freedom as to how they run their business. The problem in the UK is that the manufacturers are now running the dealers - they have tremendous power (most dealers would say too much power) and are dictating every aspect of how the dealership is run through 'dealer standards' programmes. This has resulted in very high costs and one of the ways in which costs have been recovered is through inflating workshop rates.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:37
Dealers fighting back against BER - 659FBE
Thanks, Aprilia for highlighting this likely development. I have very little doubt that it's happening as we write - MB have already started fitting coded parts to their vehicles and others will follow. Your other predictions are a logical sequel.

New vehicle trading in the UK is a very complex issue where multiple levels of profit have to be paid for (franchises) and totally inappropriate overheads (glass palaces rather than tin sheds) have to be funded. The customer is the only cash cow in the field.

As one who is self-employed, I'm a great admirer of the independent and particularly so in the motor trade. In this business more than most, independents and their suppliers have shown ingenuity and determination in their bid to make a fair living for themselves and to provide a good service to the public. I'm not by any means convinced that the vehicle builders do either of these things.

One saving grace, assuming warranties do not generally exceed 3 years is that it's largely possible to keep out of the way of the dealer for routine work by exploiting the long service intervals made possible by oil developments.

As an example of this, I bought a VAG car from a VAG dealer at 2 years (1 year of warranty to go). It had just been "serviced" - the detail or lack of it is another story - but put on fixed rather than variable servicing. This would guarantee a VAG another service before the expiry of the warranty.

I made a change to variable servicing a condition of sale. Howls of protest from the dealer - the oil had been changed the previous week. I dug my heels in and got what I wanted. (I did check, very carefully).

The car will now comfortably run to the end of the warranty period without dealer attention. Of course, the long life oil will come out as soon as the warranty is finished and I will change the oil annually myself.

You have to play these blighters at their own game - technology sometimes helps.

659.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 13:48
Dealers fighting back against BER - 659FBE
I should have added that the service indicator, if not resettable without tools would simply get the black sticky tape treatment from me. Any future purchaser of the vehicle will get copies of the oil receipts. Most vehicles now incopropate "features" I don't need.

659.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 14:19
Dealers fighting back against BER - ukbeefy
Can you explain 659 what you mean by fixed rather than variable servicing?
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 15:46
Dealers fighting back against BER - 659FBE
On VAG diesels of '05 MY:

Fixed: Semi synth oil to 505.01 changed 10k/1 year whichever is sooner.

Variable: Synth oil to 506.01 or 507.00 changed when service indicator shows.

The computer works out the time/distance to an oil change by using an algorithm whose inputs are miles, time, numer of starts, number of cold starts, time oil temperature is above a certain value etc. These cars don't measure oil "condition" (however you do that for a few pounds). Typical servicing intervals on variable servicing are 2 years/20k miles if you don't do too many cold starts.

I use the 507.00 synth oil and change it annually. I don't need VAG's computer to tell me when to change my oil. I do it in the Summer time when I feel like it - hence the sticky black tape if I need it.

659.
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 20:36
Dealers fighting back against BER - bintang
"On VAG diesels of '05 MY:

Fixed: Semi synth oil to 505.01 changed 10k/1 year whichever is sooner.

Variable: Synth oil to 506.01 or 507.00 changed when service indicator shows."

Are 505.01 etc. VAG numbers? If so, how can they be translated for use in Halfords, e.g. 10w/40 etc.? Otherwise I guess you are committed to buying your oil from a VAG dealers only.
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 23:27
Dealers fighting back against BER - GregSwain
Are 505.01 etc. VAG numbers? If so how can they be translated for use in
Halfords e.g. 10w/40 etc.? Otherwise I guess you are committed to buying your oil from
a VAG dealers only.


You'll find, in the small-print on the back of most decent semi-synth oils it'll say "VAG 505.01". It's just another spec aside from the standard API and ACEA ones that they put in big writing on the front. Typical of VW though - if I were to fill my Nissan up with oil, the only specs Nissan would worry about would be the viscosity and API. VW would be able to turn around and say "Ahhhh it may well have been API-SL, but was it VAG 505.01 spec? No proof sir? You'll have to pay for that new engine yourself then."
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 14:13
Dealers fighting back against BER - Screwloose

What is so wrong with a dealer refusing to just turn out a service light on a car that he has no knowledge of whether it's been serviced or not? After all; it's his dealer ID code that will be recorded as doing the service.

If the person doing the service hasn't got the equipment to even turn the light off; then he also hasn't the means to properly investigate any impending problems in many systems. So what other essential parts of the service haven't been done?
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 14:28
Dealers fighting back against BER - ukbeefy
I don't think necessarily that independents lack the equipment to service a car. If anything they may have more enterprise than just to plug something in and then immediately have the computer tell them to replace a few bits of very expensive componentry rather than investigate the problem properly (eg finding that something has come loose or is chaffing etc.).

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Mon 20 Aug 2007 14:57
Dealers fighting back against BER - madf
From what I have read here and elsewhere, many independents AND dealers are totally incomptent at fault finding.

And if we are paying ridiculous prices for only an oil change ( yes I read the service book and what is changed/checked) and a quick glance underneath .. which anyone can do.. then main delaers are a waste of space.


Buy a Toyota. The servicing costs on a Yaris are very reasonable.


madf
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 16:12
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
What is so wrong with a dealer refusing to just turn out a service light
on a car that he has no knowledge of whether it's been serviced or not?
After all; it's his dealer ID code that will be recorded as doing the service.
If the person doing the service hasn't got the equipment to even turn the light
off; then he also hasn't the means to properly investigate any impending problems in many
systems. So what other essential parts of the service haven't been done?


Most third-party kit apparently won't turn off the service reminder on very latest VW's. VW will sell you the kit though (c. £10k + subscription). Not many independents will want to pay that just to turn off service reminder though, will they?

Contract for the service work is between the customer and the independent, not the customer and VW. Through BER the EU have decided (rightly or wrongly) that independents are able to do servicing. It is not for VW to overule this. The car belongs to the customer to do as they wish, not VW. Its a bit like the codes (PIN) which in my view belong to the car owner and not to the manufacturer. Are we going to get into a situation where use of the car is 'licensed' from VW - like my Windows XP software actually belongs to Microsoft and I pay a license to use it? I hope not.
My knowledge and experience of main dealers is that you are no more or less likely to get a service done properly than using an independent - a view backed up by consumer surveys (e.g. Which?).
I think that this is an example of technology being used to tighten the grip of the main dealer on the service/repair market - paid for by the consumer. If unchecked, then in five years time there will be few independent repairers left and main dealers will have a complete monopoly. For this, and other reasons (poor pay, lack of interested youngsters, high land values and rents), I think there is a real 'crunch' coming in the motor repair industry in the next few years.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 16:56
Dealers fighting back against BER - Gromit {P}
Its up to us as buyers to vote with our feet and buy cars that aren't tied to main dealer servicing.

Granted, a disproportionately high number of new car sales in the UK are to fleets and lease companies. Those cars have to be sold on second-hand, though, and VWs enjoy low lease rates because their resale value is higher than the competition. If more of us avoid VWs (and any other marque that refuses to honour the spirit of the BER), new sales will be affected by the loss of resale value.

Elsewhere in Europe, where we tend to buy privately and keep cars longer, the solution is simpler - buy something else next time, and when you're at the VW dealer for your last "tied-in" service, call by the sales manager to inform him that, because of their new policy, this will be your last VW (or whatever).

Either way, when buyers do change their car, post a letter reminding VW (or the other offending manufacturer) of your purchasing decision with a copy of the receipt for your new car which can be serviced where you choose.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 16:58
Dealers fighting back against BER - teabelly
A mass boycott of VAG cars and any other manufacturer that wants to indulge in unfair practices is the best solution to this nonsense. Franchised dealerships are overpriced and usually far more incompetant than an independent. Besides, I'd like to see them take on large franchises such as Halfords/KwikFit who are moving more into servicing vehicles. The whole CANbus idea of making parts for a specific car is a nightmare even for franchised dealers as it means they have to wait for a specific part to arrive rather than just try one off a car they have lying around. Fix times in weeks for small faults which would otherwise take days or hours will not win VAG any friends. Hopefully the Koreans and others (FIAT?) won't do it and gain shed loads of customers who want to service and maintain they own at a garage of their choice.

It would only take one fleet buyer to say 'get stuffed' and the whole idea would collapse. They won't tolerate this sort of messing around. The private punter is but one voice but fleet buyers are the ones that keep the manufacturers solvent. Hack them off and they'll be going bust. I also thought EU regs were trying to force cars to be more easily fixable and maintenable for environmental reasons?
teabelly
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 17:06
Dealers fighting back against BER - GregSwain
Personally I'd rather drive around with the service light on than pay main-dealer prices for servicing. Apart from destroying the independent service centre, this sort of rubbish will also kill off DIY servicing, and result in a further increase in the "pay someone else to do it" culture. Certainly not going to win any car manufacturers any friends - as someone's said, the up & coming manufacturers such as Kia could really take advantage of this, by not adopting such technology and keeping servicing times/costs low.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 17:10
Dealers fighting back against BER - Dalglish
... I also thought EU regs were trying to force cars to be more easily fixable and maintenable for environmental reasons?


which is why i said what i said in my first reply right at the top.
the eu has imposed punitive fines on anyone who tries to circumvent consumer choice and vw have had some experience of this in the past.
even the mighty microsoft with backing of the american government has found that when it comes to fair competition rules, the eu commissioners are not easily lent upon.

and as teabelly and gromit rightly point out, the consumer still has choice. no is forcing them to buy vw.
if he/she buys vw, they do so knowing what is in store for them.

and remember, aprilia is a small part time "independent" who has a personal interest here, even though he may in addition also genuinely have the interest of his customers in mind.

and that so far we have allegations of practises/policy by vw, without any links to official statements regarding their alleged policy. we are relying purely on the statement by aprilia that "The information is VERY reliable - but obviously I don't want to be too specific about its source."

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Mon 20 Aug 2007 16:59
Dealers fighting back against BER - Dalglish
... Through BER the EU have decided (rightly or wrongly) that independents are able to do servicing. It is not for VW to overule this. The
car belongs to the customer to do as they wish, ..


i sympathise with both sides here. on the one hand the manufacturer wants to make sure that if they are held accountable for warranty repairs, they remain responsible for the standard and quality of work done on their products. they also want to make sure that as their dealers are allegedly losing lucrative servicing income (apparently if we are to believe some people, the long-life variable servicing imposed on manuafactureres by uk lease companies is leading to the long-life service regime being used world-wide, and their dealers in the uk and worldwide are losing business due to the demands of uk company lease-car managers).

the consumer rights restrictions are already there in many cases, for example [not directly related but here they are]
manufacturers of equipment ranging from multi-billion dollar power-stations, jet aircraft, and to such as everyday consumer items as tvs, computers, watches, lawnmowers, kettlesetc. etc. are all insist that for their warranty to be valid, their product must be serviced by approved agents only.
electrical work in your home - not for the customer to do as they wish, they must employ statute approved electricians.
gas work in the home - not for the consumer to do as they wish, they must employ a "corgi" registered fitter.
selling your home - you have to get a "professional" to assess it for energy efficiency and another "professional" to prepare the "home information pack".


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Mon 20 Aug 2007 17:04
Dealers fighting back against BER - Screwloose
Aprilia

We're pretty much in agreement that the crunch is here. It'll be a year or two before it seeps into the public domain, but the effects will be widespread.

To be fair to VW; a VAS5052 can do a lot more than just turn the lights off, but without it being online to Germany, there's more and more things that are "configuration protected." [Even fitting a towbar!] Dealer equipment is widespread - but it's becoming useless unless you're an accredited dealer.

Forget being saved by an army of benevolent hackers; there have always been tools that can extract [most] SKC codes. They're so expensive that they will have little impact.

So yes; we will be forced to lease cars in the future; the manufacturer will supply them, maintain them, control their usage and then recycle them - at a cost....

Five years ago, I wrote that it was all over for the professional independent and was laughed at. Fair enough; everyone was entitled to an opinion - even if they were wrong. There's a different tone on the trade forums now.

Not sure if there will be any franchised dealers left in five years. In the last fortnight, both my nearest Ford and Vauxhall dealerships have announced that they're closing - without replacement. Both are going to be redeveloped for housing - social of course.....
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 17:13
Dealers fighting back against BER - Lud
So we are heading for an era of freelance ECU hackers, guerilla back-street garages and samizdat code lists, with whistle-blowing moles rotting in chains outside the gates of Wolfsburg to encourage the others...

Will this tempt you into a spot of sporting criminality, Aprilia? :o)
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 17:37
Dealers fighting back against BER - Lud
It occurs to me that one result of all this may be to degrade a full dealer service history - not always what it should be anyway - and usher in a sort of DIY service record, much more detailed than service stamps in a book or the rather deplorable bills that sometimes come from main dealers and expensive specialists.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 19:47
Dealers fighting back against BER - 659FBE
Lud - this is the essence of my "black tape over the service indicator" approach.

Because my VAG car is a run out model, I can reset the service indicator to fixed servicing intervals from the dashboard. This will do - I'll still service it when it suits me. There is "pirate" software (VAGCOM) available if I want to reset to variable.

Two more models down the line, a car may refuse to start if driven too far beyond the "reset" point. This is where the vehicle manufacturers are removing my right of choice - and I jump off.

659.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 17:42
Dealers fighting back against BER - Screwloose

This isn't just a VW thing; it was just that Aprilia was made aware of a VW edict. Most manufacturers have been going the same way for years.

Buyers wanted cheaper cars - they got cheaper cars; by eliminating dealers margins.

So the dealers have to make a legitimate profit somewhere - all those glass palaces, that they're required to have, cost serious money and they are in business to make a return on their high-risk investment and hard work.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 17:32
Dealers fighting back against BER - Mapmaker
Dalglish. You do write a load of twaddle. Perhaps we should assume that everything else you write is similarly inaccurate.

>>gas work in the home - not for the consumer to do as they wish, they must
>>employ a "corgi" registered fitter.

Not true. If they wish to employ a fitter he must be CORGI, but they are permitted to do it themselves.

>>selling your home - you have to get a "professional" to prepare the "home
>>information pack".

Not true. You may prepare it yourself. You obviously require a specialist to undertake the highly technical (sic) work of the energy performance certificate.

>>electrical work in your home - not for the customer to do as they wish,
>>they must employ statute approved electricians

Not true. Under Part P of the Building Regs you are at liberty to do the work yourself in conjunction with the local Building Inspector.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 17:41
Dealers fighting back against BER - GregSwain
Not true. If they wish to employ a fitter he must be CORGI but they
are permitted to do it themselves.

As I understood it, anyone can do the fitting, but before the supply is turned on it must be inspected by a CORGI engineer. Something to do with flux eating away at copper pipe and causing gas leaks?
Not true. Under Part P of the Building Regs you are at liberty to do
the work yourself in conjunction with the local Building Inspector.

Mapmaker's right - minor work doesn't need reporting under part-P, such as adding a new point on a spur from an existing circuit, but major work, and kitchen/bathroom work does - however this can be installed by anyone, then reported to a building inspector. Easy to get out of - just say the work was completed prior to the implementation of part-P!
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 18:12
Dealers fighting back against BER - Mapmaker
No, GregSwain, you do not need a CORGI. Installing a new boiler is subject to building regs and will cost you £130 for an inspection if you are not a CORGI. Like all information on the internet, this may or may not be true, if somebody has a copy of the relevant journal they may be able to confirm, but here is a letter from CORGI themselves:

www.extra.rdg.ac.uk/wkc1/DIY/gas/msg00038.html
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 18:42
Dealers fighting back against BER - GregSwain
No GregSwain you do not need a CORGI.


Fair enough, but at that price it'd probably be cheaper to get a CORGI out to commission the boiler anyway! Anyway, we're agreed that gas-fitting isn't an engineer-only task.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 18:44
Dealers fighting back against BER - Mapmaker
>>it'd probably be cheaper to get a CORGI out to commission the boiler anyway!

Maybe. But only if you could find one who was prepared to commission the boiler, having not installed it himself. Not that easy to achieve.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 18:49
Dealers fighting back against BER - Lud
Some of these people are frightful carphounds who get in with cheeky builders and rampage through your house condemning every piece of gas equipment they see. Damned liberty.

I'm not saying they are all like that, but I get very incensed when people talk rubbish to me and try to blind me with science. Brings out the worst in me and the swear filter gets overwhelmed in seconds.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 19:38
Dealers fighting back against BER - madf
I have to say I agree with Lud. B Gas allegedly train their maintenance people to tell you your gas cebtral heating system "does not conform to latest regs " and will have to be replaced in 2 years... for example . ( Apparently that is untrue).

All Ic an say is if for example peops have to go to a dealer and pay £200 to fit an alternator and get it coded (plus the alternator costs) the news will get round and their second hand values will fall.

Are the Japanese fitting Canbust? I believe not...

Buy Japanese or Korean.
madf
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 20:21
Dealers fighting back against BER - Screwloose
madf

£200 to fit an alternator at the dealers? Not this century. Many are nudging towards £1000 fitted.

CAN-Bus is just a network communications system - everyone will use it soon.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 21:05
Dealers fighting back against BER - Pendlebury
I am also aware that our local VW dealers will not give a courtesy car when they conduct warranty work or service a car if the car has been purchased from a supermarket previously and not from the dealer - not quite the same but harsh all the same. (They also will not provide a courtesy car when the vehicle is bought from them and is outsude warranty period) and from also talking to family that own VW's I have picked up similar statements from their local VW dealer - they do seem to be trying to play hard ball as it were.
I think someone said previously do not try and put VW and good customer service in the same sentence - it just does not go.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 22:54
Dealers fighting back against BER - Altea Ego
Last month the touran was serviced by a non VW franchise garage. Service indicator was reset no problem. My lease company will use whatever garage they want and VW has to like it or lump it.
------------------------------
< Ex RF, Ex TVM >
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 23:03
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
Last month the touran was serviced by a non VW franchise garage. Service indicator was
reset no problem. My lease company will use whatever garage they want and VW has
to like it or lump it.



My comment about service indicator was really directed at some recent and forthcoming models (e.g. latest Passat).

For most of the present VAG range on fixed service the service counter can be reset using the trip button and ignition switch (I did one today in fact). On variable servicing you need to connect to the ECU, but still easily do-able with readily availble third-party kit.

I think the point is that in future, for service and repair work, your lease company will not be able to avoid the VW garage - at least that is what VW are planning and that was the point of my post.
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 00:40
Dealers fighting back against BER - Altea Ego
My comment about service indicator was really directed at some recent and forthcoming models (e.g.
latest Passat).


>Well, aparantly it is now VAG policy - no reset without showing an official VAG invoice for the >service. It affects '05-on VAG CANbus cars.

It was a post 05 VAG canbus car.
------------------------------
< Ex RF, Ex TVM >
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 22:55
Dealers fighting back against BER - Bill Payer
I am also aware that our local VW dealers will not give a courtesy car


As far as I know, VW dealers are operated by companies independant of VW so make up their rules - at least with VW they do have a fair number of dealers so if you fall out with one there may well be another within easy reach.

The way many dealerships are funded, they make a lot of their money from servicing - so they couldn't really afford to keep losing customers.

I know it's a different franchise, but a few yrs ago a friend of mine inported an Alfa, then had a problem that needed fixing under warranty. He found the Alfa dealer he went to very helpful - as a businessman he was moved to ask why, and the service manager told him that if was awkward to customers who imported their cars then half his business could go away.

I find all dealers have long waits for courtesy cars - both out Honda and Seat are being serviced this week and I booked them in 3 weeks ago. I guess if they needed urgent warranty work then I would probably struggle to get a courtesy car for either of them. But that's been the situation on all the cars I've had for many years.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 22:55
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
Couple of points..

1. I didn't mean to imply that ONLY VW were doing this - I gather quite a few other manufacturers are going/gone down this route and presumably more and more will. The Smart, for example, has to go to a dealer and 'talk back' to the factory. By and large the Japanese seem to me to have been less eager to implement these technologies, possibly because they tend have strong sales in the developing world where there is less dealer support available - that's my impression anyway. But I guess the temptation will be there to introduce it on European market models.

2. In terms of Screwloose's comment about the public wanting 'cheap cars' and dealers making no margin - well, I don't think 'cheap cars' was the main issue - we just didn't want to pay 50% more than the rest of Europe. Our cars are still not cheap against world prices - just look at the price of, say, a Subaru in Australia compared to the UK. Better still, how can a car supermarket buy cars from Maltese dealers and import them to the UK and sell at 25% less than a UK dealer?? I think a problem for the dealers is their business model - which requires that cash be burnt at an incredible rate. In recent years many UK main dealers have been making 6- and 7-figure investments in their sites which seem to be totally illogical and almost reckless, so they (and their customers) are saddled with high costs and tiny profits.
As I've mentioned before, our local VW dealer now has a 'greeter' - this is a lady who's paid about £14k a year and stands near the entrance and smiles at customers as they come in, says 'hello' etc.. The 'Toytota Way' uses 'non-sales' staff to greet customers and give them a brochure, walk them into the showroom etc., then goes to fetch a salesman (the salesmen all congregate in an office away from the showroom). These are techniques that cost a lot of money. The background of course is that the franchised dealer model dates back 60 years to when cars were new and cutting-edge technology and buying a car was equivalent almost to buying a house. Now cars are commodities and the time has probably come for a cheaper and more efficient way to sell and service, but the dealerships have tunnel vision.

3. CAN is a networking technology that was originally developed for machine tools, robots etc (factory automation) in the 1980's. Its inherently fairly simple. CAN does not require that parts are uniquely coded - this is a level of complexity that the manufacturers have added (or will add in the future) for their commercial own reasons.

4. In terms of comparison with CORGI etc. Well, I think some form of licensing/accreditation for automotive technicians would be a great idea. it would improve their standing, provide a framework for professional development and act as lever on performance (i.e. if they mess-up too badly/often then they lose their license). However this is quite different from a manufacturer excercising control over your vehicle, which is largely a commercial matter.

The prognosis for the less affluent private motorist of the future does not look too great. However maybe the cavalry is about to come over the horizon in the form of the Chinese? Maybe there is a gap in the market for cars which are simpler, cheaper and easier to service - the kind of car which the guy earning his modest £25k needs to have to get to work in the morning.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 23:04
Dealers fighting back against BER - Bill Payer
As I've mentioned before our local VW dealer now has a 'greeter'.... .....but the dealerships have tunnel vision.


I didn't quote the whole paragraph as it would only get snipped, but surely the issue isn't with the dealers, it's the manufacturers who dictate these requirements on dealerships?

Several manufacturers have bought significant numbers of dealerships presumeably at least partly motivated by a desire to protect themselves from the effects of block exemption.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 23:13
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
I didn't quote the whole paragraph as it would only get snipped but surely the
issue isn't with the dealers it's the manufacturers who dictate these requirements on dealerships?


Yes, that's largely true. The so-called 'dealer standards' that the manufacturer/importer sets.
I think that the problem is that the model is basically 'broken' and will have to fall apart completely before it can be rebuilt again.
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 23:15
Dealers fighting back against BER - Bill Payer
The so-called 'dealer standards' that the manufacturer/importer sets.
I think that the problem is that the model is basically 'broken' and will have
to fall apart completely before it can be rebuilt again.

What I don't understand is why that model seems to be a largely UK thing - or at least enforced more rigourously in the UK than elsewhere?
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Mon 20 Aug 2007 23:29
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
What I don't understand is why that model seems to be a largely UK thing
- or at least enforced more rigourously in the UK than elsewhere?


Well, its not just a UK thing, but is applied differently in the UK for historical reasons. For example in the UK you will nearly always pay the same retail price for the same part number from any dealer in the network - this seems to be established practise. Go to Germany and you'll find that parts prices can vary - the dealer is free to set his mark-up a part, just as the price of a particular CD player can vary from one shop to another. In theory, of course, UK dealers can do this (and the odd one will give a discount) but they normally prefer not to compete with each other. Probably the UK's company car culture has a lot to do with it. In the US and certain European countries, for example, it is possible to do DIY servicing during the warranty period!! A brief look on US car forums will confirm this - the owner just has to keep receipts for the parts purchased. The acceptance of non-dealer servicing during warranty was common in most European countries and Autralia, NZ etc long before the Block Exemption was imposed in UK. Historically the UK car sales/servicing market was very 'soft' and things didn't toughen up until the EU started pressing manufacturers on pricing during the early 1980's (remember those Which? campaigns helping you to import your car from Europe?).
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 00:11
Dealers fighting back against BER - Dalglish
in reply to mapmaker -

the key phrase in the twaddle that i was talking about was "to do as they wish".
now in the case of cars, you can muck about as you wish and you [mapmaker] can fiddle with the abs lights in your dashboard [as you foolishly mentioned in reply to someone on this forum].
in the case of electrics in the home and gas in the home, you cannot do as you wish - there are laws governing what and how you can muck around as you wish.

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Tue 21 Aug 2007 00:34
Dealers fighting back against BER - Dalglish
further in reply to mapmaker:

gas in the home - list of things that you may not do as you wish.

www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/98245102.htm#2
Qualification and supervision
3. - (1) No person shall carry out any work ...
Materials and workmanship
5. - (1) No person shall install a gas fitting unless ....
General safety precautions
6. - (1) No person shall carry out any work ....

etc. etc.

now, mapmaker, can you find any similar regs which tells you, mapmaker, not to fiddle with abs warning lights?

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Tue 21 Aug 2007 10:02
Dealers fighting back against BER - Bill Payer
www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/98245102.htm#2


There's nothing in there which stops a competent home owner from doing their own gas work.
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 18:07
Dealers fighting back against BER - Mapmaker
Dalglish.

I think we established that you could not legally disable the ABS light.

However, there is nothing in the link you posted that states that you may not fiddle with gas unless you are CORGI registered. At least, the word 'CORGI' is not on that link you posted.

There is nothing in the Part P building regs that makes it illegal for an individual to rewire his house.

Your post contained much twaddle - a result of your being bright, very able at googling, but sadly lacking in background knowledge - instead being filled with hearsay and supposition.
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 00:36
Dealers fighting back against BER - Kevin
How do they hope to get around equivalent US BER laws?

US consumers are much more vocal and litigious than your average European. There'd be a class-action lawsuit opened in California within 10 minutes of any manufacturer trying this over there.

Kevin...
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 11:30
Dealers fighting back against BER - DP
Why am I not surprised this is coming from VW? It's hardly the first time they've seemingly shown complete contempt for European customers and EU law.

tinyurl.com/25e4tx
tinyurl.com/3aeqna

I think they still hold the record for the biggest EU fine ever imposed too, at an eye watering ?90m.

Cheers
DP


--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 13:51
Dealers fighting back against BER - Dr Rubber
In the past I was talking to a decent VW dealer about how their franchise operates. Apparently, VW specify (among other things);
Showroom floor area
The tools they have to carry (and where to get them from)
The amount of lemons and limes in the bowl near the coffee machine
....
This all costs big money, although why it matters for anything other than marketing is anybodies guess.

I also understand, although I am not sure if this is the coding Aprilla talks about, that CANBus enables different components to talk to each other more than before. This gives advantages to both the manufacturer and end user (increased functionality without more wires). Because of this, if a component is changed, the other components it talks to need to be told about the change and/or updated, especially if there is a software revision in the component ECU. I can understand why this would be a problem for independants, but is it truely to circumvent BER/maximise dealer profits, or to simplify construction (one pair of wires linking components rather than a bundle)?

Joe
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 18:17
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
In the past I was talking to a decent VW dealer about how their franchise
operates. Apparently VW specify (among other things);
Showroom floor area
The tools they have to carry (and where to get them from)
The amount of lemons and limes in the bowl near the coffee machine
....
This all costs big money although why it matters for anything other than marketing is
anybodies guess.


Yes, these are the so-called 'dealer standards' that VW (UK) [not VW Germany] require. They will also include things like opening hours, number of staff on showroom floor, even down to the biscuits in the waiting area and size of TV. The problem is that the lunatics (marketing guys) have taken over the asylum and the whole thing has become self-perpetuating. There are now layers of staff ('receptionists', 'greeters', 'service writers') who sit between the customer and the person doing the job. Main dealer servicing time now seems to cost more than a private hospital, and I'm still not clear about what 'added value' a main dealer offers.
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 19:54
Dealers fighting back against BER - Falkirk Bairn
Some makes - BMW/Mini include say 3 yrs servicing in the price of the car or for a supplement. This ties you to the franchise - in itself this might not be that bad except:-

When car is in for service they get the manufacturer rate per hr (say £30 ) rather than the inflated rate the punter pays - (£80-£120 say) - this could lead to the work being classified to be done as fast as possible.

My 3 D-i-L have all had pr have a new mini in the last 5 yrs - 2 have experienced problems with their TLC servicing - oil & filter changed YES but there is scant reference to the brakes (for instance) unless they spot it needs new pads - One of my D-i-L car failed its MoT 2 weeks after a TLC service - the callipers on 1 side at the rear had seized, scored the disk - the pads were actually OK. No note was made of this at the service and no attempt to repair.

This was the car's 3rd visit in 3 years and apart from oil & filter little is done. The Indie who fixed the calliper was adamant that this should have been spotted by any competent mechanic in a 36,000 / 3 yr service 2 weeks earlier. The car was sold and a Honda bought - last time that dealer and possibly BMW will see the colour of my eldest's money.

The other 2 still pay for BMWs
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 20:39
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
Some makes - BMW/Mini include say 3 yrs servicing in the price of the car
or for a supplement. This ties you to the franchise - in itself this might
not be that bad except:-
When car is in for service they get the manufacturer rate per hr (say £30
) rather than the inflated rate the punter pays - (£80-£120 say) - this could
lead to the work being classified to be done as fast as possible.



This is true. A dealership will use several labour rates. Retail, internal, warranty, insurance etc. By bulk-buying blocks of time well in advance the manufacturer expects to get the hours very cheap. In some cases (e.g. Hyundai) the 'free' servicing offer is actually paid for by the dealer (it has to come out of his profit on the car) - so they are going to do work as quick and cheap as possible.

I know quite a few people locally who are active in the franchised dealerships and I'm always amazed at the antagonism between the dealership and the manufacturer. The dealerships take the view that the manufacturers are determined to squeeze every penny out of them and impose unreasonable demands. Warranty claims are a difficult area since the dealer is effectively making a claim from the manufacturer. In many cases on a 'no fix, no fee' basis (which is why they often won't attempt a fix on an intermittent fault - they want something obvious and permanent). Also there are various 'paperwork traps' e.g. work has to be done within so many days of authorisation, work has to be billed maximum 5 working days after the job done etc etc. Any slip up and they don't get paid.
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 22:09
Dealers fighting back against BER - Paul I
I am lucky to know the MD of a reasonable size mutli francise group (VW, Fiat, Nissan, Renault, Peugeot) etc and to say they have to jump through hoops is putting politely. They purchased from a Receiver a dealership - a two year old state of the art "greenhouse" which had cost the previous owners £4.5 million to construct buy land and equip having been served only 12 months notice that if they didn't they would lose their francise.

The orginal owners sold on average 90 cars per year and I guess that just wasn't enough. My chosen Seat dealer is a 70 mile round trip but we get very good service and can speak to everyone no problem. Guess what they used to be a VW dealer and lost out because of course VW knows best .....Hmmm (Small dealer small town and even wash the car foc)

Ford is just as bad they removed numerous small dealerships from their network and operated a postcode lottery, the thing their customer base gets the same. For instance they closed 7 small dealerships in one county and replace it with something state of the art price of labour went up by 25 % and worryingly none of the techs move from their smaller garages. who took on Hyundai and Skoda to name but two.

Friends who had a C Max took 6 months to have a problem solved eventually they went to their old Ford dealer who is now Kia and they acttually were prepared to pay their own money. Good on the dealer they said "oh thats a simple fix - just tell them that they need to do the following" and sure enough they got it resolved.

Thing is the brand isn't as important as the dealer it possibly used to be the other way round!!
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Tue 21 Aug 2007 23:16
Dealers fighting back against BER - Bill Payer
I think most supplier / distributor relationships are fraught ? I guess what?s fairly unique about car dealerships is they?re (generally) completely dependent on one supplier.

In my business we represent several (which brings its own problems) manufacturers and they constantly make demands on us and also take every opportunity reduce their payment levels (and we?re in a high tech market, where prices have fallen dramatically anyway, so it?s a double whammy). Most companies in our business are teetering on the edge.
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Wed 22 Aug 2007 00:25
Dealers fighting back against BER - wemyss
Yes you can work on your own gas central heating. This is a well known fact and is in place apparently to ensure that Corgi do not have a monopoly on who can work in your house. (There are also rumours of another organisation setting up to compete with them.)
BUT....Its not quite as easy as that. I served a full 6 years apprenticeship in plumbing and heating in the 1950s. I finished working with tools some 14 years later. I was then in the management side of building and construction including mechanical and electrical and Corgi registered paid for by my employer HM Government.
However on one visit by a Corgi Inspector to check on my examples of my mens work he told me that although you think you are registered it means nothing unless you can show recent work you have carried out.
Now at this point in time long retired, I need a replacement boiler and was intending to do this work myself but here comes the rub.
I was advised by several fairly knowledgeable persons if anything goes amiss caused by a gas installation, your home insurance would immediately ask if a competent person carried out the work. They would require documentation to prove this. I don't think they would be overly impressed with me telling them that it was over 25 years ago that I did any meaningful work on gas and had attended no further training or courses on the latest regulations.
So any DIY man although in law is able to carry out work on his own property (only) he would have no chance of proving he was competent and should think carefully before taking any risks with his home insurance.
And also as someone has stated previously a certificate by a Corgi registered person is also needed on completion of work and it could be difficult to get that.
Much as I would like to do the work myself I shall be bringing in a Contractor.
wemyss


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Wed 22 Aug 2007 03:01
Dealers fighting back against BER - Aprilia
" I am lucky to know the MD of a reasonable size mutli francise group (VW, Fiat, Nissan, Renault, Peugeot) etc and to say they have to jump through hoops is putting politely. They purchased from a Receiver a dealership - a two year old state of the art "greenhouse" which had cost the previous owners £4.5 million to construct buy land and equip having been served only 12 months notice that if they didn't they would lose their francise. "


Speaking of this - some 'prestige brands' now require availability of PS2, TV, wireless internet and private office area for customers to use on request. There's even one or two dealerships (BMW springs to mind) that have cafes with Polish girl on min wage sitting behind the counter. This all burns money like fury and the customer pays for it in the end, one way or another.
When you look at all the investment BMW dealers are now being forced to make it does lead you to wonder if BMW will pull the franchises back and take everything over at knock down prices, M-B pulled this one a few years back.
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Wed 22 Aug 2007 06:58
Dealers fighting back against BER - rjr
When you look at all the investment BMW dealers are now being forced to make
it does lead you to wonder if BMW will pull the franchises back and take
everything over at knock down prices M-B pulled this one a few years back.


MB certainly tried to take over their dealer network a few years back by issuing them with 12 months notice of termination but were taken to the high court by the dealers and lost. Ultimately MB bought the franchises for London, Birmingham and Manchester at the market rate.
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