2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Honestjohn
Drivers caught speeding twice could lose licence under penalty shake-up

Government plans for a sliding scale of penalties for speeding motorists will move a step closer with the September publication of a long-expected consultation document.

Measures to introduce graduated speeding penalties - instead of the present structure of a £60 fixed penalty notice of three points on a driving licence - were contained in the 2006 Road Safety Act.

Under the proposals drivers caught just over the speed limit will receive two penalty points and a £40 fine. However, drivers caught significantly over the speed limit, for example 45 mph in a 30 mph zone, will collect six points and a £100 fine. The same would apply to drivers clocked at 32 mph on a 20 mph zone, more than 57 mph in a 40 mph limit and more than 94 mph on a motorway or dual carriageway.

The change in the law, if approved by Parliament, would mean that speeding motorists could be banned after being caught speeding twice. It is expected that the proposals will become law next year.

Transport minister Jim Fitzpatrick said: ?Graduated speeding penalties make the punishment better fit the crime. This considers drivers who breach the limit by a small amount through lapses in concentration. It also allows for a higher deterrent against more extreme speeders.? (Daily Telegraph: July 16).

Currently, around 1,000,000 drivers are driving on 9 points, so run the risk of losing their licence for one additional minor misdemenor.

5,000,000 drivers are driving on 6 points or more and 10,000,000 drivers are driving on 3 points or more.

So 10,000,000 convicted criminals still on the roads causing untold danger to society.

If you believe such cobblers. Those 10,000,000 drivers have collectively contributed £960,000,000 to Speed Camera Partnerships and The Treasury over the past 3 years.

Importantly, they also represent 10,000,000 voters; between 25% and 30% of the electorate.

The real questions should be "how much did that consultation cost" and "who pocketed the money"?

HJ
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Chris White
I don't see a problem with it myself. If you're doing 45mph in a 30mph I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect a hefty fine and penalty points.

Before anyone says anything, no I don't drive exactly at the speed limit.

Chris
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - ziggy

If I had any speeding tickets, I would always avaoid referring to them as 'convictions'. Is a fixed penalty a 'conviction'..? Maybe I am pedantic but I thought only a court could 'convict'.

In principle the idea makes sense. The fine could rise as the square of the difference in speed vs the speed limit.

In practice I see many badly choosen limits, and too much confusion over what the limit is. I heard of someone doing 59mph in a 30 zone because he thought it was derestricted. There were no houses, no pedestrians so it was perfectly safe. But of course he didn't stand a chance in court.

Also will it be an excuse to lower the thresold...?

2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Altea Ego
Seems fair to me - sliding scales are the way to go.

35mph in a 30 2pts. 40mph in a 30 4 points, 45mph in a 30 6 points.

I am 9 points btw. (not for speeding) Currently a minor 35mph in a 30 would see me banned, whereby a minor would see me with 11 under the new rules.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
6 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Altea Ego
oh and the header is misleading, it could equally read 6 speed convictions loose license
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - gmac
Under the proposals drivers caught just over the speed limit will receive two penalty points
and a £40 fine. However drivers caught significantly over the speed limit for example 45
mph in a 30 mph zone will collect six points and a £100 fine. The
same would apply to drivers clocked at 32 mph on a 20 mph zone more
than 57 mph in a 40 mph limit and more than 94 mph on a
motorway or dual carriageway.


As usual, a mixed message coming out.
Exceed the speed limit on a motorway (a road built to move from A to B with maximum efficiency - no parked cars, schools or childrens playareas to negotiate) by 35% and you will be dealt with in exactly the same way as someone exceeding the 20mph limit around schools and childrens play areas by 60% ?

I totally agree with someone being fined and massive points allocation for speeding in 20, 30 and 40 zones but surely the threshold of heavy points allocation should be lower in the higher risk environment*.

* based on number of Motorway miles travelled per accident vs. number of urban miles per accident.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - GregSwain
It's just a form of taxation - this change is comparable with the 10%, 22% and 40% tax thresholds, rather than having everyone paying the basic rate! ;-)

Besides, within your first 2 years of holding a licence, 2 3-point penalties will already lose your licence, AND force you to resit an extended test. After those 2 years, if you had a temporary driving ban you can get straight into a car afterwards and drive without a single lesson to address the faults in your driving which resulted in the ban.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Robin Reliant
Besides within your first 2 years of holding a licence 2 3-point penalties will already
lose your licence AND force you to resit an extended test. After those 2 years
if you had a temporary driving ban you can get straight into a car afterwards
and drive without a single lesson to address the faults in your driving which resulted
in the ban.

>>
Not an extended test, Greg. You just have to sit the standard test, plus theory of course.
--
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - GregSwain
Not an extended test Greg. You just have to sit the standard test plus theory
of course.


www.learnerdrivers.org.uk/learnerdriversmenu/exste...p
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Robin Reliant
Greg,

When you get six points in the first two years you are NOT disqualified from driving, you simply revert back to provisional licence status. In my final years instructing I had a few pupils who were preparing for the test under exactly that rule, and all they had to take was the standard L test.

It was surprising the number who failed as well, which is food for thought for those who think a regular re-test would be a good idea.
--
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - retgwte
all the emphasis on speed has lots to do with anti car political correctness and not much to do with safety

i think its now clear many european countries are doing much better at cutting accidents without criminalising so many ordinary drivers

if i saw any campagins about not driving too close to the car in front

or dont be a drunk pedestrian near a busy road

i would believe they were genuine

many deaths can be attributed to the poor road design prevelant in this country, which again compares very badly with the best in the world, i dont see any designers of death trap road juntions in court no matter how many they kill

really its all out of balance

2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Cardew
many deaths can be attributed to the poor road design prevelant in this country which
again compares very badly with the best in the world i dont see any designers
of death trap road juntions in court no matter how many they kill


Compares very badly with the rest of the world?

In terms of deaths and injuries, this country has just about the lowest figures in the world as far as I understand. That is true by any manipulation of the figures; per car, per million car miles driven etc.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - GregSwain
OK, I concede defeat! The point I was making was still valid though - 2 speeding convictions are enough to lose a new driver their licence under the current system. Under this proposed system, a new driver caught just once going 45 in a 30 will have to retake their test. Seems a bit harsh to me. Still, keeps the DSA's pockets full!

I freely admit that the bad habits I've learnt in 4 years of driving would ensure that I couldn't pass another test without a few lessons. Simple things like crossing arms when steering, not putting it into neutral at traffic lights etc etc.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - ziggy
Greg

>>surprising the number who failed as well which is food for thought for
those who think a regular re-test would be a good idea.


Doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Take your test again.. I think many people would rather go to prison...!

Also there appears to be no evidence that tougher testing is working to reduce accidients among young people. What happened to 'evidenced based' policy..?
The same applies to speeding -> # fines has shot up, # of accidents has bottomed out several years ago despite ever more fines.

When I took my test many people were failed for not using 4th gear at 30mph, regardless of the fact the car may not be designed for that. It was just a tick for the anarak examiner to put in a box.

Beware the anaraks with clipboards..:-)
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Brian Tryzers
>When I took my test many people were failed for not using 4th gear at 30mph

How long ago was this, Ziggy? That said, the borrowed S40 I was driving yesterday seemed uncomfortably buzzy at 30 in third - probably the result of low gearing to squeeze some acceleration out of a weak engine in a heavy car - so I found myself using fourth in town for the first time in ages.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Honestjohn
Here is how the systems work in Germany and Spain:-


57. What are the Speeding Penalties in Germany and Spain?

Speeding Fines and Penalties In Germany

The Germans have a staggered scale for fines related to speeding:

Excess speed (3km/h tolerance) Fine Penalty points

Up to 10 km/h 20,- EUR None
11 - 15 ?30,- None
16 - 20 ?50,- 1
21 - 25 ?60,- 1
26 - 30 ?90,- 3
31 - 40 ?125,- 3 plus automatic one month ban IN GERMANY

Penalties are sharper where visibility is less than 50 metres due to fog, heavy rain or snow. Penalties for repeat offenders are also heavier.

More draconian are the rules regarding proximity to the vehicle in front - cameras are appearing more frequently on the toll gantries "Maut" installed in Germany in the last 3-4 years. As a rule of thumb, you must maintain the following minimum distance to the vehicle in front:

Half of speed (km/h) / 2

EG Speed 130km/h (80mph) on the Autobahn. Minimum "safe" distance = (130/2) / 2 = 32,5 mtrs, roughly 100 feet.

These fines are more severe than speeding, as a guideline:

Less than 50% of half of the speedo < 32,5 metres ?60 1 point
Less than 40% -"- < 26 metres ?100 2 points
Less than 30% -"- < 19,5 metres ?150 3 pts + 1 month ban
Less than 20% -"- < 13 metres ? 200 3 pts + 2 month ban

It is very easy to get caught by this.

Thanks to Jason Wilshaw, Balingen, Germany.

Speeding Fines and Penalties In Spain

60 in a 50 zone, 100 in a 90 zone, 110 in a 100 zone and 132 in a 120 zone: No penalty

61-80 in a 50, 121-130 in a 90, 111-130 in a 100, 133-152 in a 120: ?100 fine, no points.

81-90 in a 50, 121-130 in a 90, 131-140 in a 100, 153-162 in a 120: ?140 fine, 2 points.

131-140 in a 90, 141-150 in a 100, 163-172 in a 120: ?200 fine, 3 points.

141-150 in a 90, 151-165 in a 100, 173-198 in a 120: ?300 fine, 4 points.

91-97 in a 50, 151-158 in a 90, 166-174 in a 100, 199-208 in a 120: ?380 fine, 6 points.

98-104 in a 50, 159-166 in a 90, 175-183 in a 100, 219 to 218 in a 120: ?450 fine, 6 points.

105+ in a 50, 167+ in a 90, 184+ in a 100, 219+ in a 120: ?520 fine, 6 points.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Altea Ego
>Speeding Fines and Penalties In Spain

>60 in a 50 zone, 100 in a 90 zone, 110 in a 100 zone and 132 in a 120 zone: No penalty

So in effect in spain then, 50kmh speed limit is not really 50kmh, its 60kmh and so onl

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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Brit_in_Germany
How about bringing in a variable fine system similar to that in Switzerland - the amount of fine depends on your total assets. The idea is that the financial penalty is an equal burden to all. This could be combined with doing away with points resulting from spped cameras, which do not reflect the "danger" of the offence. Just an idea.

BIG
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - rogue-trooper
As usual a mixed message coming out.
Exceed the speed limit on a motorway (a road built to move from A to
B with maximum efficiency - no parked cars schools or childrens playareas to negotiate) by
35% and you will be dealt with in exactly the same way as someone exceeding
the 20mph limit around schools and childrens play areas by 60% ?



In principal I agree with the sliding scale but doesn't this happen already to a certain extent. If you are doing 45mph in a 30mph zone, can't you be done for driving without due care etc etc

as for motorways, I think that the percentages are not really relevant. I know where you are coming from as doing 95mph on an empty motorway in the dry is less dangerous that the 60% over the linit outside a school. It would need a sliding scale of speed on the motorways to be introduced, which really shouldn't be too hard as the matrix signs are already in place.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Dwight Van Driver
What was proposed when Road Safety Act was being discussed as follows:

Low Penalty - 2 points/£40 Standard Penalty 3 points/£60 Higher Penalty 6points/£100

20 mph - No lower...................20 -31 mph.............................32 mph and upwards
30mph - up to 39mph...............40 - 44 mph ...........................45 mph -
40mph - up to 50mph...............51 - 56 mph............................57 mph -
50mph - up to 61 mph..............62 - 69 mph............................70 mph -
60mph - up to 72 mph..............73 - 81 mph............................82 mph -
70mph - up to 83 mph..............84 - 93 mph ...........................94 mph -

Consulation process will no doubt follow similar lines.

What so far has not been disclosed is whether or not there will be any change to ACPO policy on prosecution by FPN/Court. Is there going to be any change of the 10% plus 2 mph i.e. lowered? Also with the Higher Penalty will this mean less going to Court under their Guidelines.

Me thinks strange days ahead for drivers?

dvd
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - rogue-trooper
maybe strange days ahead for drivers but not a great excuse saying that you didn't understand the new format as speeding is speeding. Think that it would be more realistic to have a higher m'way speed (say 80) and use a bit more common sense (as opposed to cameras)
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - geoff1248
Any other crime that allows you a 10% freeby before you are convicted? Can I nick 10% of stock before I get charged, I think not.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Brian Tryzers
The legal limit for stealing stock is zero, Geoff. So you can work out your 10 per cent tolerance from that!
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Lud
Unmarked but identifiable traffic police cars should cruise the motorways in largish numbers pulling motorists, scolding them for their driving (rather than for speeding) and if necessary, supplying them with texts or addresses for tuition.

Seems to me that is the only way driving can be improved. Trouble is, 'improved driving standards' is a risky objective from a politician's point of view. Repression, inhibition and money-grubbing penalty systems on the other hand can be presented to a gullible, infantilised public as moves along the right lines, with proveable results.

So we've had it.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Altea Ego
Unmarked but identifiable traffic police cars

How does that work then lud? Big sign saying "NOT POLICE"?


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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Brian Tryzers
Perhaps they'll have a distinctive smell.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Lud
Same make. Same colour. Blues behind grille. Discreetly uniformed officers (no gold epaulettes, spurs, swords or jackboots).

They shouldn't be obvious to the carp motorway driver in a daze if he looks in his mirror, but he shouldn't be able to mistake them for highway robbers and try to flee when they pass and flag him down..
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - oldbuffer
If I remember rightly, and no doubt someone will correct me if necessary, that driving licence, insurance and MOT are compulsory, whereas speeding is an optional extra that many of us do not want nor need.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - normd2
thought we already had unmarked identifiable police cars?

simply look for the clean saloon without metalic paint, steel wheels with all four hubcaps and most importantly no supplying garage sticker in the back window or anywhere else.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Lud
Well of course. But are there a lot of them on motorways giving bad drivers a flea in their ear, or are they parked in red light districts eating pies?
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Group B
Not so easy to spot on the stretch of the M1 I frequent. The ones I know of have metallic paint and alloys, they no longer have extra aerials on the roof as a giveaway. The latest one I saw was a new Saab 9-5 with very discreet blue LED's on the rear parcel shelf which obviously look grey when not illuminated, small and difficult to spot.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - daveyjp
I've also seen a Saab 9-5 on the M1 in Derbyshire. What drew my attention to it were the black reversing sensors on the silver bumper which looked terrible.

Our local force use a Vectra Estate in white - saw it twice yesterday.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Altea Ego
A lot of metalic blue new shape passats have turned up in london and around, really no way of knowing till the blue lights shine out from behind the grille
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - helicopter
My company car is a white Vectra Estate with steel wheels minus hubcaps since some pink fluffy dice removed them a few months back. I can't be bothered to replace them.

When driving on the motorway at a steady seventy on the inside lane I have noticed people do tend to slow down and have a good look just to make sure before overtaking.

2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Mapmaker
I think this is an excellent idea. Doing 95 on a motorway = an indicated 100. You deserve to have the book thrown at you.

I do not like even remotely the idea of fine but no points for low-level crimes. That effectively means that wealthy people can drive up to 40mph in 30 zones without any problem. Where is the sense or fairness in that?
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Lud
Doing 95 on a motorway = an indicated
100. You deserve to have the book thrown at you.


I have many times driven lengths of motorway, including a southbound M6 on a Sunday night, where the rapid quartile of the traffic was touching an indicated hundred from time to time, perfectly safely it seemed to me... I am sure I am not alone here.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - normd2
judging by my experience of the M6 last Saturday 90 - 100 seemed to be mandatory for cars. And you know what else? Between half-way down Cornwall to just south of Carlisle I didn't see a single marked Police car and the one I did see then was heading south and then I didn't see another until Fife. Saw a few Traffic Officer cars between Exeter and the Midlands though, mostly on the hard shoulder with their lights on but no-one else around.

ps anyone know why the M6 was shut between J22 & 23 on saturday?
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - neil
"I think this is an excellent idea. Doing 95 on a motorway = an indicated 100. You deserve to have the book thrown at you."

Oh, absolutely. 95 should be a hanging offence. And your thoughts on defective brakes, now? - no worries?

You dont by any chance wear size 18 shoes and a revolving bow-tie, do you? ;-)


2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - nick
>>"I think this is an excellent idea. Doing 95 on a motorway = an indicated 100. You deserve to have the book thrown at you."

95 on a motorway? If it's in a well maintained car in the right conditions it's perfectly safe. The law is an ass regarding speed limits. When the 70 limit was first brought in many family cars couldn't do much more than that and with relatively poor brakes and tyres compared to today.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Chris White
They've just got hold of a Ford Focus ST in silver in the Eastbourne area.

Chris
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Mapmaker
I'm sure that you can drive perfectly safely on an empty motorway at 95mph. The only problem is everybody else.

A goodly number of people pootle along at an indicated 70 - which is probably 65 mph. They think they are going at the speed limit. AT 95 you are going 50% more quickly than they are. They're not expecting you. They check their mirror, prepare to change lanes, change lanes and suddenly a car travelling 50% more quicly than they are has crashed into them.

It is the speed differential that is the problem, and the unexpected nature of your appearance at 95mph. If you want to drive at those sorts of speeds on public roads, and object to the UK 70mph limit, then please make Britain a safer place and move to Germany. Or campaign for the limit to be increased to 95mph.

There is possibly no more terrifying motorway experience than pulling out on an unrestricted autobahn into an empty lane.... and having a car appear travelling twice as quickly as you are behind you, headlights blazing.

Drive sensibly, don't surprise other drivers by doing the unexpected, and live longer. (And don't get your blood pressure up.)
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Altea Ego
Not a good arguement mappy

Hat on head man is doing 65mph, Rudeboy is doing 95. The speed differential may be 50% (ish) more, but at the end of the day its only 30mph. Not a significant speed to be suprised by.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Altea Ego
Of course - I forgot. 30mph is significant to you because your ABS is not working. No wonder you worry about speed.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - madf
Not only is Mapmaker's ABS not working, his traction control is not either...
madf
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - neil
Not only is Mapmaker's ABS not working his traction control is not either...
madf


Or his moral compass!
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - normd2
indeed - how do lorry drivers survive who are restricted to 56?
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Mapmaker
My ABS works perfectly well, thank you. Or at least, I presume it does as the light goes off as it should. I don't suppose it has ever been activated since March 1999 when it came out of the factory.

I happen to disagree, TVM, 30mph is plenty. Try doing 35 mph on the inside lane, and pull out in front of somebody doing 65mph.

The country is full of abysmal drivers who might as well drive with their eyes shut. Do you really want them doing 95 - or being surprised by somebody else doing 95?
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - gmac
Mapmaker, you might want to get your headlights looked at too if they are blazing away on dip. The unwritten rule on the autobahn is dips on at 200kph and above. That way people know you are coming at speed.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Westpig
Mapmaker,

In the scenario you've highlighted, it's the twit not looking in his mirrors that needs to sort his life out.......the more nanny state we become, the less drivers think about what they're doing and they need to, driving can be dangerous.......and falling into a false sense of security by ever decreasing speed limits is not helping matters
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - daveyjp
Sorry westpig he is spot on. I have experienced what he describes - me doing 70-80 on a quiet motorway. Prepare to overtake, do mirror check, do shoulder check, prepare to move out and the car doing 100+ is there. Motorways have bends and crests of hills too (especially the M62 which I tend to use most when it's quiet), so seeing a long way back is not always possible.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - gmac
Surely you'd be monitoring your mirrors as you drive along and make several observations before planning an overtake ?
You don't just look once and pull out. You should be checking every eight to ten seconds regardless of whether the motorway is busy or not.
That car travelling at 100+ could be an emergency vehicle.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Martin Devon
Drivers caught speeding twice could lose licence under penalty shake-up

When we are all nicked who will pay for the single Mums, (with more fat tums) ?????

yoursindesparation..MD
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - gmac
When we are all nicked who will pay for the single Mums (with more fat
tums) ?????


I wouldn't loose too much sleep over that one.
Government will always find a way to raise revenue, it's what they do best...
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - gmac
You may not even lose sleep !!! damn spellchacker
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Bromptonaut
The limit on the motorway is 70. Everybody knows it's 70.

Arguably it could be a bit higher, maybe a bit over 80 in fine weather - like in France - and still be safe. OTOH there are enough nutters out there already without giving them extra rope to hang themselves and others.

If you want a higher limit campaign for it, absolutely no reason to wilfully disregrard it it then complain that 90 is OK really when you get caught.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Lud
No one is complaining or saying they were caught.

They were just saying 100 is perfectly OK sometimes even with traffic.

What's so difficult to understand about that?
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - nortones2
Not even the Germans think 100mph is OK - the days of unlimited roads are over. Most are regulated to 85 and the reason? Too many deaths due to bad judgement.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Lud
Not even the Germans think 100mph is OK


Yes they do. And so do many here. Trouble is, others don't, and the repressive attitude is the morally easy one. You can feel smug without trying to think.

To be quite honest I am tired of this thread. Same old carp round and round.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - nortones2
The Germans as represented by their Goverment. As it is a fact that Germany restrict speeds on Autobahns, some permanently, others on rate of usage basis, and weather, with the purpose of reducing road deaths, arguing against it is perverse. Of course some people believe that speeding is innocuous, but most don't, and certainly those representing the populace, who make the rules, don't. There is a way to remove speed restrictions, but the chances of that are vanishingly small, despite the whinges of the lunatic fringe.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - gmac
The Germans as represented by their Goverment. As it is a fact that Germany restrict
speeds on Autobahns some permanently others on rate of usage basis and weather with the
purpose of reducing road deaths arguing against it is perverse.


Are there two Germanys ?
The one where I am still has derestricted autobahns, restrictions only being applied around busy intersections and large conurbations, which you can't really argue with, common sense and risk assesment would make you slow down anyway.
True there is the 130kph limit but no-one gets wound up if someone travels faster and they certainly don't feel the need to get out into the third lane and enforce it themselves. The individual can asses the risk and make a decision.
If you are involved in an accident and proven to be travelling in excess of the recommended maximum then you can expect a heavy fine and points, possibly a ban.
In my experience driving here is more considerate than in the UK.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - gmac
True there is the 130kph limit


This is incorrect, it is not a limit, it is a recommended maximum.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - nortones2
To clarify the position: "German roads are fast and well maintained. Notoriously, German motorways (the Autobahn) are free of speed limits in certain areas, but where speed limits do exist they are generally strongly enforced and as such it is obviously advisable that you stick to them. " preview.tinyurl.com/ywnscq

The speed limits are signed: red circle with the speed limit numerals inside - this is not the same as the "advisory" 130kph signing. However, that has a status rather like the HC. Exceed, collide, explain why you thought you could cope with speeds >130kph.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Lud
I doubt if much has changed in Germany in the four years or so since I passed through. My Skoda Estelle frequently exceeded 100mph but was constantly having to dodge out of the way of long trains of German repmobiles doing 130mph in the rain. I found some of the motorway driving mad and scary, and saw after the event a colossal pileup in the other carriageway, a mile of wreckage.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - nortones2
"Long trains" is a good description. Lud. Foot flat to the floor seems to be the rule on part of it at least.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - MikeTorque
Interesting how the same few people keep turning the matter of breaking the law into a matter of money or nanny state syndrome.
If only you guys would realise this is not about raising money or nanny state syndrome, it's about getting you to reduce your speed and save lives, save pollution, save money (i.e. by not breaking the law and you save fuel and pollution), and saving a future generation.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - ziggy
Interesting how the same few people keep turning the matter of breaking the law into
a matter of money or nanny state syndrome.
If only you guys would realise this is not about raising money or nanny state
syndrome it's about getting you to reduce your speed and save lives save pollution save
money (i.e. by not breaking the law and you save fuel and pollution) and saving
a future generation.


The only justification for speed limits is real safety.

If only YOU would realise that REAL SAFETY is what counts, not anaraks enforcing the letter of the law because 'rules is rules'. Further, we cannot have zero accident rate and zero risk. That is simply not possible. Unless you want to stay in bed, never go out and drug youself into a persistent vegetative state for the next 70years.


The fact that you say it is about pollution shows us that this is not just about safety.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Mapmaker
Why is it that exactly the same people who argue that it is perfectly OK to break the speed limit by a margin of nearly 50% - and that it should be OK for any numpty to break it by a similar margin - are exactly the same group who argue that driving without working ABS (which in the hands of many a numpty driver actually causes them to lift their foot OFF the brake* pedal when it cuts in) is irresponsibility beyond measure.

Ir some drivers didn't drive far too quickly for the circumstances (which remember include other road userss too) then they wouldn't need all these safety aids.

So, do safety aids make the roads safer, or do they encourage people to drive more dangerously? Don't they say that the best safety aid would be a spike sticking out of the steering wheel that would impale the driver in the event of a crash.


___________________________________
*Hence the introduction of 'brake assist'
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - ndr116
Speeding is a strange issue because it's illegal but most people seem to be able to justify it to themselves (and I include myself in that group). But it's hypocritical because if, in the wee small hours, I was sat at a red traffic light with no other car or pedestrian in sight I would not jump the light. It would be safe to do so and I'd probably save more time on my journey than speeding. Perhaps I'm in the minority with the lights thing, would you wait or go? If you'd wait, why do you obey that law and not the speed limit?

But in regard to the original post, I cannot see the problem of linking the penalty to the severity of the offence (even if most of us would sometimes question why the speed at which we choose to travel is an offence).
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Mapmaker
Interesting that nobody has commented on my objection to the idea of a de minimis limit below which there is only a fine and no points. That would give carte blanche to the wealthy to travel more quickly than the poor. Reminiscent of Communist USSR, I feel.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Ed V
The issue is that Government has to legislate for the lowest common denominator, within reason, as bad driving at speed causes death, while bad driving at lower speeds may not. The fact that some drivers are quite safe at 100 mph is irrelevant.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - neil
That already exists mate - at least as far as the 'executive lanes' goes! They're called 'bus lanes' but TAXIS are allowed in them - how they can possibly be described as 'public transport' eludes me, but its certainly how the well-heeled get their kids to school these days!

Actually, as there is very little enforcement outside London of buslanes (currently), and the penalty doesn't carry points, perhaps enterprising 'executives' might like to weigh up the likelihood (once a month, maybe, if unlucky?) of getting stopped and fined (£30 fixed penalty), and the time saved at a cost of £1 a day if caught once every 30 uses. Most speed, few use the 'spare' lane - seems to be a British queue mentality thing. I'd happily pay a quid a day to use the 'spare' lane and share them with the bus. (Oh, yeah, I do anyway, on the basis of that cost/benefit analysis! Come on in - the spare lane's lovely!)

PS your ABS theory is REALLY worrying!
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - gmac
I think you are confused here.
Brake assist does not operate when ABS has activated and the system detects a release of pedal pressure.
ABS releases pressure to an individual wheel when the system predicts lock up. Brake Assist applies more pressure when it detects an emergency braking situation. Brake assist also releases when you release pedal pressure.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - madf
Mapmaker said

"Why is it that exactly the same people who argue that it is perfectly OK to break the speed limit by a margin of nearly 50% - and that it should be OK for any numpty to break it by a similar margin - are exactly the same group who argue that driving without working ABS ( is irresponsibility beyond measure."



All I can say is I argued it is irresposnsible to drive without a working ABS system. Nowhere have I supported driving over the speed limit. I don't. People who regularly do desrve to get whatever comes their way. And people who capmpaign for a rise in the 70mph limit are wasting their time co it is never going to happen... which is kind of obvious to anyone with half a brain.

So "the same people" is NOT "the same people".


But then being exact and factual does not appear to be part of Mapmaker's argumnts!
:-))))







madf
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Mapmaker
Apologies, MADF, I have tarred you with the same brush as TVM and Bellboy. I should have used 'many' rather than 'exactly' - the problem of dodging in and out of the back room whilst trying to do something else.

Just going back to the ABS, which I now slightly wish I'd never written... as it is being thrown back at me on regular occasions completely out of context. I fully accept that on the basis of Aprilia's advice a modern ABS system fault should not be ignored. I was unaware of this 'nice' detail built into new cars.

On more antiquated systems, failure of the ABS has no effect on braking. Indeed, early ABS came with an off switch, just to prove this point.

Do members of the BR consider driving a car without ABS to be reckless and irresponsible?

If people didn't drive too quickly the effect of all these additional safety features would actually make a difference to road fatalities. They don't as it just encourages people do live closer to the edge. I am a keen proponent of the spike in the middle of the steering wheel.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Number_Cruncher
>>Do members of the BR consider driving a car without ABS to be reckless and irresponsible?

If you mean a car which was not fitted with ABS, then no, I certainly don't think driving such a car reckless and irresponsible. Furthermore, if the manufacturer has provided an off switch for the ABS, then, it's fine in somecircumstances to take the decision to switch it off. In these cases, braking efficiency will be good, and rear locking will be prevented by system design rather than via electronics.

For me, it was the proposed modification to the system, without a real appreciation of the consequences, re: loss of efficiency and potential rear locking which caused the worry.

It's one thing to make the modification on your own car. It's quite another to recommend the modification on a public forum - especially one like this which gets a really wide ranging readership. And quite a further step if such a modified car were sold to an unsuspecting member of the public with its fresh 12 month MOT.

Number_Cruncher
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Mapmaker
>>recommend

Did I?
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Number_Cruncher
You even gave detailed instructions!, written in the imperative!

----8<---

Open up the dashboard, and disconnect the wiring on the ABS light and then wire it to the ignition light - that comes on when you turn the key and goes off when the car is up and running.


----8<---

2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Mapmaker
Pick up a knife! Stab the person at the desk next to you!



;)

_______________________________________________
In common with all posts, this is not to be construed as advice.
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Altea Ego
It was messages in my head your honour.......
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Lud
If I may intervene, m'lud, what my client means is that the fillings in his teeth through some fluke of radio transmission have picked up an incomplete work of political philosophy from his co-defendant's wireless Blackberry, which my client has quoted out of context essentially in the hope of exposing its theoretical flaws...
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Number_Cruncher
>>Pick up a knife!

Oh!, I see now. You were joking all along the way. Silly me!
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - Mapmaker
I don't know about joking, but I don't think it can be construed as advice either.

There's a very good reason why cars like that make (implausibly) good money on eBay... Chances are somebody will end up making that little change to the wiring... at which point it will reappear on eBay and be bought back by OP.

That little trick works well with the engine management light too. I am told.
______________________________
The above should not be construed as a recommendation or advice. Be
2 Speed Convictions Lose Licence - normd2
....and if you use a delay relay like on a courtesy light then it won't go off at the same time as the ignition light - allegedly.
 

Ask Honest John

Value my car