The thread needs to be renamed. They are not allowed to be referred to as "accidents" The concept of accident is not allowed any more. They are now incidents, and as such need someone to blame. Apportioning blame and hence retribution takes time.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Some authorities refer to RTC (road traffic collision) but some still refer to RTA (road traffic accident).
I certainly accept the view that the vast majority of collisions are avoidable, even if a small percentage are genuine accidents.
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"Incident", particularly with reference to trains, always used to be a euphemism for a suicide leap.
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"Incident" particularly with reference to trains always used to be a euphemism for a suicide leap.
Thought they called them "guzzunder"
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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the legislation is the RTA....Road Traffic Act. That was conveniently similar to Road Traffic Accident, so they both got called RTA
however, somewhere along the line someone worked out that most 'accidents' weren't an accident at all, someone caused it, so they are now Road Traffic Collisions (RTCs), so that there is no inference that the 'incident' is blameless....or certainly until proven otherwise.
very few collisions are blameless, poor driving and/or poor maintenance, are the usual culprits
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Apologies for the multiple typos in my post of 2153 yesterday! Now that I have seen that Brunstrom is involved I can say that there is probably no limit to the silly ideas and intiatives that may occur!
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It is also at least partly due to the insurance/lawyers "find the blame" game. It used to be "sorry there's been an accident, your Dad's dead." Now there's all the business about what caused it and whether it was down to bolts being left off wheels (as reported on another thread) tyres blowing out, the Merc A class Elk test, the Ford Explorer (I think) and whether roadworks, road surface, other people's driving etc caused it.
Quite often at these things, the cars have more than one blown tyre anyway as a result of the collision, and having attended many RTC's, it cannot often be immediately ascertained what has caused the final loss of control. There are often several causes, and only by a bit of investigation can we find out what has happened. THEN we can apportion blame to please the ambulance chasers and the grieving family.
I make no bones about defending it - we don't want any more congestion than we can help - not least because there are usually one or two other bumps caused by rubber neckers. I have nearly been mown down by a rubber necker who was too busy looking at the mess to notice me standing in front of him for the past 10 seconds (me, 6'4", well built, in a large yellow coat next to my car which was lit up like a Christmas tree). It's more hassle to stop cars and block the roads, but we need to have answers for people because they demand them.
Would you like it if we turned up at your house to say "There's been a crash, and your wife's dead, but we got her off with a hose in about 5 minutes, so that 30,000 people were able to get home in time for Corrie."
If you want answers, then let us find them for you.
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Career: (n) Job, profession.
(v) Downhill, rapidly, out of control.
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"If you want answers, then let us find them for you."
Knowing its been done so some more bloke can spend two years in nick, with his family in tatters around him, for what might not be much more than a momentary lapse, well that doesent really help me any.,
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Would you like it if we turned up at your house to say "There's been a crash, and your wife's dead, but we got her off with a hose in about 5 minutes, so that 30,000 people were able to get home in time for Corrie."
I am sure you would not be so crass! How about " There has been a crash and your wife is dead. We know that nothing we can do will bring her back and accept our condolences. The accident scene was cleared, as a result of which 30,000 other travellers were able to catch their holiday flights and ferries, go to important business meetings, visit sick relatives in hospital and travel to their own vital hospital appointments. 3 hearts urgently needed for transplant surgery reached their destinations" etc etc etc! In the final anaylsis 30,000 living people's lives are very important and their interests outweigh those of one deceased person.
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It is also at least partly due to the insurance/lawyers "find the blame" game ------.
Unless we get away from the emotive posts this thread will inevitably suffer the fate of others on this subject i.e. get locked.
From what has been written here it seems that the new policy that leads to such lengthy delays, is a police initiative.
Given the frequent complaints, from us layman and the police themselves, that traffic policing resources are inadequate, it seems strange that so much effort is diverted from patrolling and accident prevention to post accident investigations.
It would appear for once we can't blame our political masters in Westminster or Brussels for what IMO is a questionable change in policy.
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Well, others have their opinions, and I have mine. Mine are also shared by the huge majority of those who have to clear up the results of other people's "minor lapses."
Driving is a dangerous game. What is a minor lapse to some isn't to others. If we don't find out that a minor lapse has occurred, how will we know that a major lapse/breach of H&S/drunkard caused it and needs the book throwing at them. When we don't prosecute a minor lapse, the family/press/public etc all too often come up with the sort of stories that we see "My daughter's lfe, and the driver got a £100 fine."
I don't often get worked up about these threads - there's more to life - but I do think that the attitude expressed by Armitage Shanks and others is that that is ultimately manifested by people driving through cordons (and getting flood stranded as happened last week up here) on the assumption that "my life is more important than finding out what happened to someone else's loved one" and the assumption that police shut roads because it's easier than catching criminals.
I have no personal beef against anyone else for expressing opinions with which I disagree - this is why I like this board as it is written in a literate and moderate fashion. I will read this thread again, but will not comment further.
Best regards
O
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Career: (n) Job, profession.
(v) Downhill, rapidly, out of control.
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I wasn't going to bother with this thread as I went mad on a previous one.....but as is often the case I can't resist
third world countries, couldn't really care less about an individual..if you have an accident, you're brushed off the road, sent to a mortuary and that's that....."oh well"
over here we are not 3rd world, are we?.......
someone said higher up the thread that if he fell off his ladder it wouldn't be investigated....i can assure him/her it would.......every death, (bar some such as the elderly in care homes and such like under the recent care of a doctor)...... have a police officer attend and assess whether there are any suspicious circumstances......if the chap who fell off the ladder had died in susp circs then there would be a full crime scene and it would be thoroughly investigated...
a crime scene on a motorway or fast road is most noticeable as for safety reasons and the fact cars travel a great distance at speed, means a lot needs to be kept 'sterile'...whereas your neighbours back yard with a ladder in it, you probably wouldn't even notice
there has to be a balance and maybe (i don't know, not my line of work) that balance has been slightly tipped too far...however it is very unrealistic to expect a 3rd world response and not appropriate IMHO.
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over here we are not 3rd world, are we?.......
Getting very close IMHO. Look at the state of education (the products not the schools) tens of thousands leaving school every year with no GCSES at any grade, rubbish flood defences, corrupt politicians, NHS doing its best, not marvellous but free. MPs feathering their nests (amazing pensions) while thousands have lost theirs, Ombudsman has ruled they must be recompensed, governemnt action to date = Squat. Collapse of law and order due to police chasing performance indicators not criminals, at the behest of their leaders/management ,I hasten to add. Public transport dire and expensive. Look around! 2nd World and going downhill I'd say. And as a motoring link the roads are rubbish for what we pay to use and maintain them!
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I suspect a simple cost benefit analysis would go something like this:
Benefits:
Find out the cause.
IF it is something which can be solved (faulty signs) do something unless it costs a lot of money (straighten road) so do nothing.
If insoluble, (eg inattention/driver error) do nothing
Costs
Police time
Motorists time
Congestion time.
I suspect if done impartially the costs of the resulting congestion (think of the fuel costs alone) would outweigh the benefits but wdik.
However, once you start investigating every accident in detail.. and then stop - you will inevitably have a lot of surplus resources .. so the "change nothing" option is the easiest..
IF the benefits outweighed the costs I would expect accident levels to fall every year and the driving test to get stricter/focus on key areas. These are not happening.
madf
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third world countries couldn't really care less about an individual..if you have an accident you're brushed off the road sent to a mortuary and that's that....."oh well" over here we are not 3rd world are we?.......
We are not talking about the 3rd World - unless you include mainland Europe and the USA in that definition.
Surely the issue is why has the policy(balance as you term it) that causes the additional delays changed.
Have we become a more caring society, are we more 'caring' than our European cousins?
Could it be that more of the limited traffic police resources devoted to patrolling, rather than investigation, might prevent accidents in the forst place?
On an issue that costs GB ltd many £millions and huge frustration to the motoring public, it seems reasonable that we should be given an explanation by police chiefs or their political masters.
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As suspected...it went the way of the other threads.
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