The linked old thread does the topic to death, but just wanted to toss-in the following: SWBO has frequently been practising driving in the evenings recently: She's not at all a technical person, so any comments she makes will pretty much be based purely on subjective experience. On a couple of evenings in the past week when it's gotten round to being dusk, she's remarked that the unlit oncoming cars are difficult to see, those with headlights on are dazzling, and those with sidelights/dim-dip are just right. And I have to say, sitting in the passenger seat, I entirely agreed.
(The headlights as well as being painful, could prevent early-sight of a pedestrian setting-off crossing the road behind said car, for example)
I reckon it'll be to do with one's eyes' rods and cones and it not being dark enough for them to have 'switched-over' to 'night vision'. If you put your own headlights on in these conditions, they have virtually no effect at all on what you can see of the road ahead of you, so I suggest sticking with sidelights for another 15 minutes until it's got darker, and thus avoid dazzling the likes of me!
One situation where I *DO* put headlights on is when I'm on a single carriageway road with bright but very low (elevation) sun behind me.
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I don't buy the 'bad for motorcyclists' argument, although I agree that always-on headlights are a bad idea. (I had this feature disabled on my Volvo, which required me a write and sign a letter to the dealer that they set against their record of downloading the necessary software change.) The problem will be that drivers will see the lights and not the vehicle bearing them, which makes the apparent size (i.e. distance) of an oncoming vehicle hard to judge. Motorcyclists presumably accept this at present, as the alternative too often is not being seen at all, but they won't be any worse off if all vehicles have lights.
There are many cases where pan-European legislation is a good thing, but this isn't one; it assumes that the same approach to lighting is appropriate in northern Sweden and in southern Italy. But then, as others have suggested, if drivers used their brains more, there'd be no problem to solve.
Incidentally, I've suggested here before that one solution to the dazzle problem is to set the height adjuster to its lowest position when you're using headlights just to be seen, rather than to illuminate the road ahead.
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I've always thought - well for the 30-odd years that it's been law anyway - that driving against lines of cars on dipped headlights in well-lit urban streets makes the surrounding pavements, etc, more difficult to see.
My 1992 Accord has dim-dip and it seems the ideal compromise to me. When and why was the system abandoned or outlawed?
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The EU rules say that the UK can't require manufacturers to fit dim-dip mechanisms on cars sold in the UK. An EU member is allowed to permit things not allowed by the EU-wide rules, but it's not allowed to add extra requirements. All to do with harmonising trade.
Nothing stopping manufacturers still fitting dim-dip functions, but they don't have to any more, so they don't.
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Incidentally I've suggested here before that one solution to the dazzle problem is to set the height adjuster to its lowest position when you're using headlights just to be seen rather than to illuminate the road ahead.
A useful suggestion, WDB, and one that I've found useful in foggy conditions, too.
However.....
>>But then as others have suggested if drivers used their brains more there'dbe no problem to solve.
Unfortunately, all too true :-(
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There was an e-petition to the Government from motorcyclists opposed to daytime dipped lights and daytime running lights. This doesn?t seem to have been mentioned in this thread or the earlier one. The petition closed on 9 February this year. The Government?s response, which I received, is below.
I don?t know if there is any later news on this. My own view is like some others: bring back dim-dip.
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Another reason to take with a pinch of salt anything related to motoring which comes from this government:
> > In addition, motorcyclists currently make themselves more conspicuous in daytime (on a voluntary basis) by using dipped beam headlamps.
It has not been voluntary for FOUR YEARS !!! The European Motorcycle Manufacturers Association (ACEM) adopted the practice of Automatic Headlamp On (AHO) for all motorcycles, scooters and moped from 2003.
It's good to see the government keeping up to date on automotive developments so they can make informed decisions.
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They may be made like that, but is it compulsory for motorcyclists to drive with their lights on?
It's not compulsory for Volvo drivers to drive with their lights on, as far as I know.
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I imagine it's compulsory by the fact you cannot switch them off. There are no longer headlight switches on bikes for sidelight and dipped headlight. You only get the switch from dip to high beam.
Legally it may not be compulsory, in reality you cannot turn them off.
Similarly with Volvo you don't have to drive with the lights on (on the newer models there is a menu option, or switch configuration, to turn DRL off) however, on the models where the menu option is not available, to switch them off some owners have reported having to sign a waiver which is held on file against the vehicle details by Volvo.
I'm not sure what the insurance implications are regarding switching off what is regarded part of the cars standard safety kit ?
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Up to the early 'thirties the better class of car tended to have sidelights rather like small headlamps,
with proper reflectors; these were what my father used in fog on his Humber. But during the decade styling dictated puny "streamlined" things which in turn gave way to soon corroded affairs built into the bodywork.
More recently, depending on the arrangement of sidelights within the front lamp cluster some are easily seen (and of benefit not least if a headlamp bulb burns out) while others are quite useless.
I propose a revival of the old-fashioned kind.
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>>Driving on sidelights ..... but are only really sufficiently visible if the bulb is an insert in the main headlight assembly.
I have uprated my sidelight bulbs to Osram W5W Cool Blue. They show white light ( so look better than old yellow 5Ws ), are brighter, legal and about £5 plus p&p on the web.
A much better back up for a failed dip ( as my dip bulbs are not instantly changeable).
An alternative is to use LED replacements (six LEDs each so that is quite a light output) if they are not affected by the main lamp placement.
>>I was always a big fan of 'dim-dip' headlights,
Me too. I had them on my Sierra Sapphire
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The cutest side lights I've ever seen were those on the top of the front wings of Jaguar XK120s and XK140s. That was in the days before drivers felt the need the blind everyone in well-lit built-up areas.
--
L\'escargot.
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My Triumph roadster had them. They had a small red insert in the side, so you could always tell that the bulbs were working without having to get out and look. Likewise all the rear lights were visible through the boot.
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My Triumph roadster had them.
One of the advantages of being old is being able to reminisce about motoring from half a century or more ago.
--
L\'escargot.
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One of the advantages of being old is being able to reminisce about motoring from half a century or more ago.
But not remember, after two minutes, what it was you went into the kitchen/bathroom/bedroom/shed* for :)
* delete as appropriate
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I was remembering the car, not the year it was made. It was already 20 years old when I bought it (for £45) in 1967.
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BMW's have Angel Eye sidelights now. Therefore, the sidelight has an important purpose - they are for posing.
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i once hitch hiked from london ( brent cross a406) down the M1 to leicester in a car with no lights at all , at night ....its amazing what you will do just to get home especially after a week working in london, i think the guy who gave me a lift was wasted couldnt smell booze on him tho
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Well you could argue that side lights rather than head lights help to reduce CO2 emissions and pollution, but then again having no lights on at all saves pollution, however it's more of a case of they can see but they don't realise they can't be seen. Try asking anyone who owns a silver or dark coloured car if they think they can be seen in dull weather conditions and the majorty will say yes, when in reality they are almost invisible.
As for the EU trying to force us to have headlights on all the time day and nights well it just goes to show how inconsistent they are in the light of them trying to get everyone to reduce their carbon footprint and reduce pollution. Have they calculated the impact such a policy will have on carbon emissions and the increase in pollution on the planet and on people lives ?
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"Is it possible that they don?t realise that they have n?t got their headlights on??"
Yes, There is amazing ignorance and lack of knowledge amongst some drivers, even about the everday bread and butter controls in the cabin.
An example being the car with very steamed up windows and the heater control being set to recirculation permanently without any grasp at all of either the control, what recirculation means, or even what condensation is caused by.
If the dashboard lights up, for some drivers the `lights are on`.
Regards
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If the dashboard lights up for some drivers the `lights are on`.
........ but nobody's home...... :-)
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What is all this "daytime running lights bad for motorbikes" garbage?
Does cars having lights on suddenly make motorbike lights black or something?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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They had a small red insert in the side so you could always tell that the bulbs were working without having to get out and look.
>>
www.vintagecarparts.co.uk/fr/list+lamps~side/
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Back to my OP. Appalling conditions this morning on the M5 and still some cars driving on sidelights. Like oilrag above, I can't believe that there people are deliberately selecting their sidelights in these conditions, which means that they are doing so in error.
This is a real safety issue which can't be solved by traffic cameras. Irrespective of the EU stuff, surely there is an argument that there should either be a separate switch for the sidelights only option - well away from the proper headlamp switch - or some sort of warning should be installed. Would it be possible to default sidelights to dipped if the engine is running?
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