Can anyone help me please? I have an expired 2.2 turbo diesel. The engine type is 4HW, it is in a Fiat Ulssees. I have been trying to track down a suitable used replacement. I have found a 2.2 HDi turbo from a 2003 Peugeot 406. The engine type is 4hx. Is there anyone who can tell me the difference if any between the 2 types? I have had no joy from Peugeot dealers or customer care.
{shouting amended - DD}
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stevie
There's no need to shout...
The obvious difference is 5 hp more in the HX. They're both DW12ATED units; so if you're keeping everything external to the block and head exactly as it is, then there's a fair chance that it'll bolt on and work.....
But with swaps - the devil can always be in the detail.
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Hi, screwloose
caps lock is now off, I am thick to all this. The car is in France in a main dealer. They are trying to help me out as the turbo blew approx. 400 yards from them after they told me it needed a new turbo but would be OK to drive and bring it back the next day to have it fitted.
You sound like you know far more than most, as I have phoned several Peugeot main dealers in the UK and they had never heard of either of the codes.
Could you tell me more. What do you mean by keeping everything external to the block and head exactly as it is.
I have been told by one person that the injection systen on the HX may be siemens instead of bosch, could this be where the 5 HP comes from, and if I was to swap the pump and injectors from the old engine (new bosch injectors as mine have melted) would that bring it back to the same thing?
Any ideas?
thanks already
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stevie
If a dealer hasn't heard of a 4HX, then he's either never seen a 406 spec sheet; or he's being disingenuous.
PSA seem to use either Bosch and Siemens control systems on all HDi engine codes without power difference. [Bosch, Sagem, Marelli et al petrol systems turn up on identical engine codes too.]
Bearing in mind that 4 new [never use s/h] HDi injectors will set you back the thick end of £2000 by the time they're fitted and coded; this is a important matter to investigate. Bosch EDC units have an in-tank low-pressure pump; but Siemens SID units don't. Whatever is fitted on your car; you need the matching type.
Just how bad is the damage to your 4HW? Injectors don't melt. Did you have a diesel runaway? Did it stick a rod out of the side? What about reconditioners?
I'd leave the high-pressure pump and injectors on the replacement engine and simply change the manifolds over as the Ulysse ones may be different. As to things like waterpumps; hose outlets; loom runs; mountings; etc. it's a suck-it-and-see operation.
As you'll be paying dealer labour rates to explore this engine swap, getting the right engine is probably a better bet.
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screwloose
Totally lost now.
My engine revved up whilst stationery, then I turned key off but it did not stop. I stalled it straight away. The dealer is telling me the engine is knackered, they tell me that they cannot remove the injectors, it has not thrown a rod but they say it will not turn.
If the 4HX engine has Bosch Injection System is it the same other than hoses etc. because trawling through the internet I think that both variants were used in the Citroen C5, so I would think the mounts are the same, and it must marry up to the gearbox!! (I would think) do you know if there is anyone who would know for sure? or do you know where I could go to find out?
I very much appreciate your time on this.
My predicament is that the car is in France and I am running out of time. the 4HX engine is very attractive because it is only 5kms from the garage, reasonably priced and has very low mileage.
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stevie
Sorry if I'm getting a bit technical; there's a lot of points to cover.
You usually can't tell which make of injection control system is on any particular HDi until you open the bonnet. PSA use both variants indiscriminately on all of them. [Haven't seen enough 4HW engines to tell if Fiat do the same.]
I've never tried to mix-and-match Bosch/Siemens components [no-one has ever wanted me to try!] so if they're two different systems on these two engines, you'll be exploring new [and very scary] territory.
So you did get a mild runaway, but managed to stall it - lucky...! If it's seized [odd?] then that's it. The injectors are always a nightmare to get out anyway; [why did they want to?] as they virtually weld themselves in - can even take two days of Coke. [Don't they know that over there?]
I'd expect most things to marry up, or be swappable off the seized one. It's the thought of winging-it with the world's most complex fuelling system that worries me. If they're not both exactly the same make/type of injection; I'd just not go there. It's going to be bad enough wondering if the turbos are in the same place with the same fittings.
Make sure that they send the intercooler and all it's pipework away for proper cleaning and evaluation. It'll be full of shattered turbo fragments.
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Hi again
Firstly the dealer has agreed to remove the engine, strip off all the bits, refit them to a new engine then refit the whole lot for 600 euros. (they feel bad about letting me drive off)
They were trying to get the injectors out as they were thinking that may be they could drain the oil and all would be well.
They probably dont know about the coke thing, will have to tell them, with the current language problem that should be a laugh if nothing else.
They have mentioned cleaning the intercooler, and all the pipework, they did not mention sending it anywhere.
What I really need to know is IF the 4hx has bosch injection as mine has, will it fit? could the turbos be in different places? could the fittings be different? is there any where to go to get a definitive.
Also would the intercooler from the 406 be any good?
many thanks again
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They were trying to get the injectors out as they were thinking that may be they could drain the oil and all would be well.
Oh; dear.... That doesn't sound good; they haven't got a clue...
current language problem...
That bodes well...
What I really need to know is IF the 4hx has bosch injection - as mine
has - will it fit?
If it's also got Bosch injection and it's around the same age - don't even disturb it. Just note the injector codes for the ECU recoding. [The injectors come in grades.]
Could the turbos be in different places? Could the fittings be different? Is there anywhere to go to get a definitive.
Yes and yes; what's it out of? Definitive answers - with an engine swap? No way. There can be 100 tiny changes even between different years of the same car.
Also would the intercooler from the 406 be any good?
Very unlikely.
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Hi again screwloose, you are beginning to feel like a mate, thanks for all the info
They were trying to get the injectors out as they were thinking that may be they could drain the oil and all would be well.
Tell me, what has gone on inside my engine, could it be salvaged?, it really did not rev that hard and was stalled within say 3 or 4 seconds of it happening.
>>>Yes and yes; what's it out of? Definitive answers - with an engine swap? No way. There can be 100 tiny changes even between different years of the same car.
The car that has /had the engine was a 2003 406 last generation 2.2 hdi
>>>If it's also got Bosch injection and it's around the same age - don't even disturb it. Just note the injector codes for the ECU [The injectors come in grades.]
How would I know/find the codes.
You said earlier on not to use s/h injectors, why?
Have you any idea where I cwould find a 4HW engine?
many thanks again
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stevie
Original fault - hard to say without a lot of info - but an over-speeded turbo was probably at the root of it. Why? Intercooler split; EGR valve stuck open - many possibles.
Why is it seized? Odd that. I don't detect the sound of competent, thorough, diagnosis going on here.
They were obviously thinking hydraulic lock in the cylinders from spewing oil from the failed turbo - but didn't have the sense of touch, or know-how, to confirm that. [Or the nous to just turn it backwards...] Trying to take the injectors out.... Oh really!!! Why not the glowplugs? [This isn't Clouseau Motors is it?]
It might have ingested a bit of shattered ceramic turbo - that's just possible; but I'd like to see a lot more evaluation of the condition of your engine before embarking on a risky engine swap. The tiny details are the unknowable.
If it'll run "as is" leave the injector re-coding to a diesel specialist here - just drive it back gently. The codes are stamped on the injectors - probably best not to let Messieurs Bodgeet and Leggeet mess around with your ECU configuration settings.
Secondhand injectors don't work. If you saw what has to be done to them to prise them out - you'd know why.
Any good s/hand 4HW is going to be like hens' teeth - and megabucks. Only ever used in the various versions of these - as far as I can see.
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The original fault was an odd noise coming from the engine, sounded a bit like the starter motor sticking, when you stopped the engine there was a rumble as the turbo (I presume) slowed down to a stop, must have been the turbo bearings. Does that help with any long distance prognosis.
I think you might be right about the lack of thorough competent diagnosis. Would be easier if I had a clue, but it is all way above my head.
I have found in the UK a short engine recond for £450, any idea what could be wrong with the cylinder head? what would be the worst and how much do you reckon to get it refurbed if the worst had happened?
As for driving it back now. no way it is in bits, I have to find an engine or buy one from them, or get my one fixed, either way its gonna be megabucks, but I cant get my head round throwing our car away.
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stevie
You've certainly just described what sounds like a turbo bearing failure; coupled with the diesel runaway from the spewing oil, it's likely that's what happened. [And they said you could still drive it!!? Had it ever run out of - or been run on poor quality - oil?]
I've seen many cases of total engine destruction on French common-rail diesels follow such an event; but yours didn't seem to suffer the [terrifying] over-revving and smokecloud - followed by the big bang and the red-hot bits of engine scattering down the road.
I wonder if the force of stalling it broke up the dual-mass flywheel and that's what's now locking the engine? I didn't realize that they'd disassembled the engine; [I wasn't referring to driving this one home] just how far have they got? Have they taken the engine out yet?
A short engine is basically just the block and it's internals; by the time you've added on all the "extras" it's no saving - don't go there.
Sadly; scrapping diesel cars at 4 years is commonplace. In the S/E they're worth so little at auction and now cost so much for any significant repair; that selling to a specialist breaker for a thousand or so and moving on is the cost-effective way to go. It's very different in other parts of the country; in parts of Scotland, they still run around in S-plates - or even earlier!!
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Since we have had the car it has been serviced and always had good oil, we have never let it run low, the noise started (very little), I drove it carefully about 6 miles to the garage (slightly worse but not alarming) they put it on their ramp, said the turbo needs replacing, the whole thing expired less than a 1/4 mile down the road.
there was no big bang, just rumbling and a bit of smoke the engine did not rev high and I stalled it quick time, there was no oil leaks or external signs of problems.
What is a "dual-mass flywheel " and is it possible to break it with a simple stall, as I say the engine was not revving hard.
I have found a complete low mileage 4HW engine for £3k, what would you say is the story with the intercooler,? any idea how much if it was worst case?
May be I should just take it to pieces and sell it bit by bit on ebay!!
appreciate your comments.
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Stevie
I still think that we don't know why it's not turning. The garage were thinking hydraulic lock in the combustion chambers rather than seized; so did they ever get any further than trying to extract the injectors? Turbo bearings don't just fail; there's always a reason.
A dual-mass flywheel is another recent nasty that replaced the previous ultra-reliable round chunk of iron with a rubber-bonded internally-geared excrescence that now costs over a thousand to replace every time you simply change a clutch. Progress? They often break up and I was just wondering about "rumbling...." If they've got the engine out; have they checked anything like that?
The intercooler will need to be checked, drained and thoroughly cleaned inside.
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.*********
Anyway easy go easy go as they say or is it easy come easy go, well whatever it is I am pink fluffy diced off with it, the car has got voice control amongst its host of useless gadgets, I asked it to "spontaneously combust" today but it just kept saying "sorry" "sorry" so I guess it is felling apologetic too.
will let you know how we get on and am sure I will be seeking further advice by Monday.
Thanks for everything so far, and speak to you soon.
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