i don't know why they rave so much about Monaco......for a motor racing fan it is a completely boring procession.....
if the teams want a good social whirl......why not have that in the weeks between races, have a traditional hooly somewhere
how can it be fun to race somewhere where you can't overtake and back markers constantly hold you up?
or am i missing something?
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Hamilton will live to regret his comment at Monaco today that drivers in midfield and the tail end were monkeys who were likely to crash on the first corner. a couple of years ago Ron Dennis made himself very unpopular for calling the lesser teams "track cleaners" which was not nearly as nasty. Omegalen
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>>or am i missing something?
McLaren denied favouring double world champion Fernando Alonso in the Monaco Grand Prix on Sunday after rookie team mate Lewis Hamilton suggested he had been forced into a supporting role.
Team boss Ron Dennis said the 22-year-old joint championship leader and runner-up to Spaniard Alonso in a dominant McLaren one-two, would have won had the safety car been deployed.
For the first time this season, the Briton appeared less than ecstatic with second place -- his fifth podium in five Formula One starts.
"I have the number two on my car, and I am the number two driver," he told a news conference.
Hamilton had qualified on the front row with a far heavier car than Alonso on pole position.
Alonso led from the start but when Hamilton had the chance to build up a gap, after the Spaniard's first pitstop, he was unable to do so because the team called him in to refuel earlier than expected.
"I was actually quite surprised because I was fuelled to go five, nearly six, laps longer than Fernando and they stopped me with three laps," said Hamilton. "That's unfortunate but it's the way it goes."
Alonso explained that he had in fact gone two laps longer than scheduled because he had used less fuel than expected in the opening laps and Dennis was adamant there was no hidden agenda.
He said his job was to make difficult decisions and Monaco was a unique circuit where the introduction of the safety car, deployed in four of the last five years, could wreck the best-laid plans.
The two drivers therefore had to be on radically different strategies.
"Everybody feels I'm sure, and a lot of people will feel it in England, that there is some favouritism or some penalisation that is given to either Lewis or Fernando," he added.
"But we are scrupulously fair at all times in how we run this grand prix team.
"We will never favour one driver, no matter who it is. We never have, we never will."
Dennis confirmed he had instructed both drivers to slow their pace after the first pitstop to limit risks and protect the one-two. With no major accidents, the safety car remained absent.
"I don't like to slow drivers down, I don't like them to be frustrated," he said. "I don't like to see these things happen, because I am an absolute racer. It's just the way you have to win the Monaco Grand Prix, which is what we've done.
"If the safety car was deployed, Lewis Hamilton would have won the race."
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"I have the number two on my car, and I am the number two driver," he told a news conference.
Complete tripe. Hamilton got a slapping from the spaniard today. Alonso treated him like an upstart and showed him he had him beaten at all stages of the race. This was a significant race for team hierarchy and hamilton is upset that alonso clearly put him in his place, possibly for the rest of the season.
Thats why he is upset.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Its about time the spaniard gave him a slapping, he's been slacking for goodness knows how many races, proof being in the points. Alonso should stop looking at himself in the mirror and start making sure Hamilton is in it instead - beaten by a rookie, more than once is the sign of someone dragging their backside.
Atleast Hamilton wants to win and is willing to try and judging by the sideways episodes, he was when he was allowed. Anyone who thinks theres no politics in F1 is rather naive though.
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"I don't know why they rave so much about F1......for a motor racing fan it is a completely boring procession....." Slight adjustment to your statement westpig! F1 is boring - it is just Monaco that is really really boring!
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From the FIA site (13:30 Mon)
"2007 MONACO GRAND PRIX 28.05.2007
The FIA has launched an investigation into incidents involving the McLaren Mercedes team at the 2007 Monaco Grand Prix in light of a possible breach of the International Sporting Code.
The relevant evidence is under review and a further announcement will be made in due course.
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I totally agree with TVM.
During qualifying and the 1st stages of the race Alonso just showed why he is no 1 in that team with fantastic driving skill.
Having said that - Hamilton did well.
If I was Ron Dennis I would have done exactly the same.
You can just imagine the headlines if they had wiped each other out during the final stages on a tricky circuit.
Hamilton has had his chances early on & in other races and took them when he could - he will get more chances but to start racing in Monaco when 1st and 2nd is in the bag would be a bit foolish in my view.
I think the press were a little over the top - almost suggesting Hamilton could have won it without team orders - as if Alonso was just going to sit back and let him.
It was down to the likes of Ferrari and BMW to challenge McLaren and they were nowhere in it.
At the end of the day though Hamilton has done brilliantly - there are 20 other drivers who would love to swap with him and he has only driven 5 races. JB especially.
Ron Dennis has done a superb job with Hamilton.
His dad's interview at the end was the most sensible I have heard yet.
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>.Complete tripe. Hamilton got a slapping from the spaniard today. Alonso treated him like an upstart and showed him he had him beaten at all >stages of the race. This was a significant race for team hierarchy and hamilton is upset that alonso clearly put him in his place, possibly for the >rest of the season.
No, not a slapping - he was beaten marginally by a car that was lighter in most stages of the race, and was himself carrying fuel as 'passenger' i.e. it wasn't used. As Ron Dennis said, the 2 strategies were designed to cater for a possible safety car deployment - presumably so re-fuel stop 'windows' didn't overlap & allow greater flexibility for 'snap' pit-stops. Sensible move.
I think Alonso is a fine driver, and it probably doesn't do him justice to acsribe to him the 'treating Hamilton like an upstart' motivation - Monaco is a particular type of race & the team & both drivers worked the best strategy for gaining maximum points in both driver & manufacturer races.
My only concern is the looking-for-a-controversy attitude of the media - are they trying to drive a wedge into the McLaren or something?
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No one gave anyone a 'slapping'. Honestly TVM! This is football reporter stuff.
Treating drivers (or football players) as if they were manikins to be set up, knocked down and rolled in the mud flatters the 'fans' by allowing them to share this God-like omnipotence, all phoney of course.
Maclaren walked it on the day. Team orders were apparent. And why shouldn't they be?
It will be interesting to hear what breach of the Sporting Code Maclaren is suspected of.
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Well I have followed F1 for years, let me see, must be 35 years, and I saw no sign of any team orders. What I did see was one driver being better then the other.
Its like this. At McClaren there is no "no 1" driver. That being so (and it is) Alonso has been shown up by his younger and less experienced team mate. I know it, he knows it, the world knows it but worse of all Hamilton knew it. Worse - Alonso crapped out at his home GP.
Now we come to Monaco - In effect Hamiltons back yard, his stronghold, never been beaten there. This is the place where Alonso had to show who was the better driver. This was the place to put the upstart down - And he did. By quite a lot. He matched, bettered and countered *every* move by Hamilton. During the time Hamilton was out in front, the first pitstop windows, this is three laps remember, he made NO catchup time. His laptimes were inconsistent.
Hamilton is bitter. He is bitter because he knows he got a slapping. He will learn. He will learn to keep his trap shut at the wrong moments, and when to open at the right moments. If he has any sense and ability (and he has both in spades) he will learn from this.
Wait for Silverstone. This is the next battleground for in team battles. Alonso will want to stuff him at home.
F1 is 25% technology, 25% skill, 25% politics and 25% mind games.
Fascinating stuff.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Well I have followed F1 for years let me see must be 35 years.... Its like this. At McClaren....
And in all that time still can't spell McLaren correctly ;o)
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>> Well I have followed F1 for years let me see must be 35 years.... >> Its like this. At McClaren.... And in all that time still can't spell McLaren correctly ;o)
Thats the way we spell it in WocKing.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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However good he is; did Hamilton really think that he could pass Alonso? He wasn't close enough at the first pit stop - even if he had used more of his fuel advantage. Alonso didn't vary his usual metronomic laptimes to post that blistering fastest lap for nothing.
Trying a passing manoeuvre on a double [not "two-time..."] World Champion as "single-minded" as Alonso on that track would have likely turned "P1 and P2" into a double "DNF."
Hamilton needs to recognize that public whinging about the tough realities of F1 just brings FIA trouble to the team. He's been given an unprecedented opportunity by Ron Dennis and sometimes he needs to just bite the bullet and get on with it - he should be grateful that his first F1 run at Monaco wasn't in something like a Spyker.
Let's hope this tantrum isn't the first sign of negative personality effects from over-adulation of the media.
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Unfair to accuse hamilto of a tantrum. He felt he could have won and was prevented from doing so in order to let Alonso get the victory. Whether he could have done so is another question, but I can understand his frustration.
His relationship with Alonso looks set to be a very sour one, particularly as the investigation into the result comes from his apparant comment that he was ordered to let the Spaniard win (illegal) rather than the teams strategy protecting his lead (legal).
--
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.. Well I have followed F1 for years, let me see, must be 35 years, and I saw no sign of any team orders.
What I did see was one driver being better then the other.
from the Times May 28th: 'FIA to investigate Alonso victory '
"..Ron Dennis, the McLaren team manager, says he prevented his drivers from racing in Monaco after their first pit stops, but maintained the outcome was a result of team strategy, rather than team orders."
Although I don't know if Ron has had that much experience...lol.
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And if you read my post you will see Hamilton screwed it around the "the first pit stop"
If you knew F1 you would know the first session into the first pit stop makes or breaks the winner of a team mate race.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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>>And if you read my post you will see Hamilton screwed it around the "the first pit stop"
..and after the 2nd pit-stop, he made up about 5-6 secs IIRC - it just shows how the unique racing conditions at Monaco (i.e traffic & passing difficulty) can affect things. What does it prove either way? The fact is, Ron Dennis said himself that the real race was over after the first pit-stop, due to team strategy needs. This is hardly, as you say of Alonso 'showed him he had him beaten at all stages of the race.'
>>If you knew F1 you would know the first session into the first pit stop makes or breaks the winner of a team mate race.
Well, I may not know as much as some, but I can certainly remember many races where leads between team mates have changed frequently after the 1st stop, both vying for the lead in racing conditions , sometimes on the last corner! So that statement just doesn't make sense to me.
No ,it's clear, as Ron Dennis said, Hamilton was asked to play the team game & ensure maximum points for the team, no stuffing, no bitterness on Hamilton's part, just a bit of understandable frustration - which I thought he 'stifled' extremely well.
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No you are wrong and its far from clear. Who was first on the grid and why? Who was first into the first corner and why? Who was 1.5 seconds a lap faster in the clear and why?
Yes mclaren set out team orders. After the *clear* winner was established. that why the gap came down. Its an old racing drivers trick, team orders given out, man who is second dont like it so makes look like he could win. Lead driver dont care he knows why the gap is small. So does Hamilton.
And if Hamilton had kept this trap shut there wouldnt be an enquiry would there. Hardly the mark of someone doing a good stifling job.
As a driver, you are a team lead. You have a team to motivate, do the best for you, garner a desire for a win. Whinging and whining gets you a surley team who wont achieve anything. Ask Button.
He was surly and ungracious. Anyone can claim but for team orders I would have won. No-one can prove you couldnt have won. Point is Had he been 1st at the time of team orders he would have won. He wasnt was he. And thats all that counts. He came second. But sure he has the skill and talent. His time will come.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I do have to keep agreeing with TVM here.
Hamilton has shown some naivety and I suspect Ron is not too happy at the moment.
It was a fantastic weekend for McLaren and all of a sudden it has turned very sour.
On Ron's 60th B'Day as well.
I think Alosno is also a lesson in managing the media and relationships that both Hamilton & Button could learn from.
Keep your mouth shut, your head down (honour your contract and your boss/team) and let your driving do the talking.
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Woodbines,
You have email.
DD.
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he's young, fired up, wants to win.........what should we expect. He's not a robot, he's bound to make mistakes. If he wasn't so fired up, he wouldn't be so good.
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Slapping it was not, but apart from that TVM has got it right. Alonso produced the goods at the key times of the weekend, Hamilton didn't. To be as close as he has been to a double world champion all season is a great performance, but on this weekend he was second best. Team orders or not, he could not have beaten Alonso as he was unable to make up time during pit stops, was slower in the early stages and it is impossible to overtake at Monaco anyway without co-operation. Mansell vs Senna 1992? Coulthard vs Bernoldi 2001?
Hamilton also complained about difficulty lapping cars. Some of these guys should be introduced to Rene Arnoux, circa 1986/7.
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Hamilton also complained about difficulty lapping cars.
I wonder if that was payback time from the monkies
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>>Alonso produced the goods at the key times of the weekend, Hamilton didn't. To be as close as he has been to a double world champion all season is a great performance, but on this weekend he was second best. Team orders or not, he could not have beaten Alonso as he was unable to make up time during pit stops, >>
I disagree, Hamilton was fractions of a sec of pole in a heavier car and if McLaren had not called Hamilton in early for his 2nd stop he could quite possibly have passed Alonso, that is where the "strategy" (in Ron's words) was applied, rather than team orders, so they will probably get away with it.
However my above comments are not feiting Hamilton, rather Alonso is being shown to be rather ordinary, in the past he has won when his car has been superior and generally he has not had top team mates (though Trulli often out qualified him), he now has the best car though only just beat his rookie team mate, at other races this year Hamilton has had the better of him. Makes me think most of the grid would have been there with Alonso if they were in the second McLaren.
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If you mean Fisichella, I thik it was Alonso 15 poles, Fisichella 3. Thats hardly "often out qualifying"
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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If you mean Fisichella >>
No I mean't Trulli, he generally outqualified Alonso at Renault in 2004 before going to Toyota for the last couple of races, he also outqualified Button when they were both at Renault in 2003.
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well in doing a bit of research in this, I found this site.
f1-facts.com/statistics/team-mates/Alonso
Wooo what a good site for those after F1 statistics.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Sorry, I meant he also outqualified Button when they were both at Renault in 2002.
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At every stage of this GP, including qualifying, when "the chips were down" Alonso played an ace in an immaculate manner.
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Reading this thread, I now remember why I stopped watching F1.
It's downright boring.
SWMBO switched it on and I promptly fell asleep.. which sounds just about right.
After Steve McQueen all races at Monaco are boring.. (was it him?):-)
madf
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A lot more boring and less about cars than it used to be.
Still just about bearaable to a true enthusiast though. Or is it just stubborn nostalgia?
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I didn't watch but I read a race report which said the order of the first 4 drivers on the grid was the same as their positions at the finish = no change. That isn't a race, it is a parade, albeit a very risky one!
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I read somewhere today that Hamiltons pit stop was brought forward 5 laps. Had he had the chance, he possibly could have made up time in those 5 laps and the result may have been different. Ah yes, no link as its an HJ competitor, Daily Express.
"Hamilton, second on the grid, got the second-best option but even so he was mystified at being called in when he had enough fuel for another five laps at a point when he could have put in his quickest times of the first session and built up a bank of time which might have put him in the lead."
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I agree, as I said above if McLaren had not called Hamilton in early for his 2nd stop he could quite possibly have passed Alonso, adjusting pitstop timing is where the "strategy" (in Ron D's words) was applied, rather than team orders, so they will probably get away with it.
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and he quite likely wouldnt have, as the three laps he was out on his own, he want making up the gap. As he wasnt making up the gap before the stop, in fact untill Alonso slowed down *after* the order went out, he wasnt making up the gap anywhere.
Hamilton lost that race .3 seconds after the start when he made a huge swing over to block the ferrari. Lost him distance, time and most of all, by admiting he was more worried about those behind him rather than those in front, lost him the mind games.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Once he was clear of traffic another three laps in the clear might have done it.
Hamilton lost that race .3 seconds after the start when he made a huge swing over to block the ferrari. >>
That was Ron's doing:
" OK boys, the Ferrari was only 1/4 sec down so Lewis you can cover Fernando's pink fluffy dice from the start"
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I see on the news that common sense has prevailed and McLaren have been cleared of any wrong doing in the Monaco race.
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>McLaren "did nothing which could be described as interfering with the race result"
So what was Ron's 'strategy' in aid of? Personally, I don't see why a team boss (the clue's in the job title) shouldn't give instructions to his drivers, but if team orders aren't allowed...
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Storm in a teacup.
As instructed, young Hamilton kept Massa off Alonso during the first part of the race.
Did he complain or scowl later? Not that I could see (however I wasn't really looking). But if he did, he's already shown that he would be quite capable of doing it for calculated reasons, or because he had been instructed to.
Monaco is I believe the slowest GP circuit. Ferrari may well make a better showing on faster circuits. Time for the Finn to show some form. But it does look like McLaren and probably Alonso for the year.
I do think it's funny that people expect Hamilton to be annoyed when he isn't allowed to race his teammate. He doesn't look like a halfwit to me.
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So what was Ron's 'strategy' in aid of? >>
Read the FIA press release:
"The primary objective of any team is for one of their drivers to win. If this can be achieved they will try to ensure their other car finishes second.
With no safety car during Alonso?s first stint, there was a small but finite risk that it would come out during the five laps before Hamilton had to refuel. This would have put him behind the field and at a significant disadvantage to any car on a full (as opposed to optional) one-stop strategy. The latter cars would be expected to refuel around lap 40 ? ie after the safety car had pitted if it came out during Hamilton?s extra laps.
For similar reasons Hamilton was called in early for his second pit stop, thus assuring his second place, with or without a safety car.
Had the car in front of Hamilton not been his team-mate, McLaren might (probably would) have decided to risk the safety car and let Hamilton run for as long as his fuel load allowed in the hope that he would come out of the pits in the lead after one of his pit stops. There is, however, no obligation on them to take this risk in order to overtake their own car. Indeed it would be foolish to do so.
It is standard procedure for a team to tell its drivers to slow down when they have a substantial lead. This is in order to minimise the risk of technical or other problems. It is also standard practice and entirely reasonable to ask the drivers not to put each other at risk."
As I said before if McLaren had not called Hamilton in early for his 2nd stop he could possibly have passed Alonso, that is where the "strategy" was applied, rather than "team orders".
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"Read the FIA press release"
I did, but it still boils down to RD affecting the outcome of the race. IMO, this should be within his remit - it's his team after all, but if 'team orders' aren't allowed...
In the event, he has talked his way out of it very neatly, but in so doing has highlighted the absurdity of rules designed to limit what may or may not pass between team bosses and their drivers.
From now on, all instructions will have to be prefaced with the words: "for strategic reasons..." :-)
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I think this was a storm in a teacup and the FIA clearly came to the right decision.
What amazed me was Bernie's initial reaction - along the lines of saying that, if McLaren were found guilty, they should have points docked or possibly be banned from the championship. This seemed to be a rather vitriolic over-reaction to the situation. I also think it made him look silly by jumping the gun in his comments since the very next day McLaren were cleared by the FIA.
I have always been a little cynical about the F1 conspiracy theories, but that sort of response does make me wonder about a pro-Ferrari, anti-McLaren bias.
I assume that what really annoyed the other teams was Ron saying that his cars were so quick that, after 10 laps, they didn't need to try any more. That may have been indiscreet (although true) but was no reason for Bernie's over-reaction.
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