The Story -
Time for the privately owned 2.5 year old MB E Class 320 to go along to the MB dealer for its service. With 42K on the clock I expected a standard £200 to £300 service. Collected the car and was told that will be £800 sir (mouth hangs opens and starts to go white).....Now before you start with the " If you must drive an MB then you must expect the high service costs that go with the ownership etc etc" I should point out that:
1) This was a B service which required 4 hours of labour as it has "Large Maintainance Scope" and requires draining of oil from the auto box!
2) No call to warn me that the cost will be nearly 3 times the normal service cost
3) BECAUSE THE CAR IS STILL WITHIN WARRANTY WE CHARGE 20% MORE FOR PARTS AND LABOUR
Yes .....Thats what they told me 20%... more for parts and labour just beacuase the car is still in warranty...I couldnt believe it so I asked for the reason and they explained:
" Well sir you see we try to offer a 20% discount to all car owners when the vehicle is older than 3 years (read ex warranty) to encourage them to continue to use the main dealer for their servicing needs"
(THINKS.... So Ive been ripped off by 20% for the last 2.5 years then £350 Im guessing)
Whilst I ask whether they use different rates of pay for the service techs or lower quality parts after 3 years I realise what a rip off main dealer servicing has become. IMHO blackmail is at work here as we feel obliged to protect our warranty and have to use the main dealer and they over charge us by at least 20% (possibly more ) for the privilage....
I then explain that I am now a really upset (No swearing) customer and I refuse to pay the extra 20%. Following a chat with the service manager I recieve a 20% discount (thier words not mine) of £130.
A result or just what I should have paid?...You work it out
Am I "Encouraged" to use the dealer next time when my 3 years is up...You work that out too
THE MORAL:
Check your next service bill if you have a warranty covered car and ask " Are your labour and parts rates the same after my warranty expires?"
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\"Eagles may fly in formation but Weasels dont get sucked into jet engines\"
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That certainly must have come as a shock...
However, if it requires a 4-hour main dealer labour charge it certainly isn't going to be anywhere near £200-£300? And that's without the parts and 'comestibles'...
It would also help if you detailed some of the cost breakdown.
You've hit the nail on the head though with the expectation of a full MD service history on a prestige car - it'll be worth much less without it.
I had a BMW 330D Tourer that cost a small fortune to maintain to perfection, but it put me off spending such a dollop out of my income so much that I reverted back to bangernomics...
R
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Even with the discounted rate that seems expensive. At 36k the transmission requires fluid and filter change. The fluid is a quick job, but the filter takes longer. The total book time is 1hr20mins. Your total service labour should therefore be 3hr20mins according to the MB schedule that I have. It may be that they did some work over and above what is essential?
Allowing just over £100/hr labour that still mean £400 of parts, which seems very very high. What were they charging for the oil and ATF?
I think the problem is that the whole franchised dealer business model is just 'wrong' for the customer. Ask a typical main dealer and he'll tell you that car sales account for 85% of turnover and 15% of profit; aftersales accounds for 15% or turnover and 85% of profit.
Many of the premium brands are being pushed into absolutely massive site investment to meet manufacturer-specified standards - there are dealerships making multi-million pound showroom investments and yet predicting 6-figure losses. The aftersales is being caned to pay for the whole operation and this is what is leading to frankly obscene service and repair charges.
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I had two fuel pipes and body trims replaced as part of the warranty cover so no labour or parts cost there, I did ask whether the labour charge included the warranty work and was told that it did not.
The bill below was pre discount:
L= Labour P = Parts
Replace brake fluid L= £110 P=£22 Check Ply Belt L=£11.00, Large Maintainance Scope L= £176 Engine oil & filter L =£66 P=£65 (inc filters) Replace Transmisson oil & filters L= £121 P=£84
Combifilter P= £18 Consumables P= £20
Total Labour £484
Total Parts £201
Vat £120
Total £805
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\"Eagles may fly in formation but Weasels dont get sucked into jet engines\"
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I must confess I don't really understand the bill.
The labour for brake fluid renewal looks rather high at £110. A charge of £11 just to inspect the drive belt seems high too - its literally 1 minute's work. I would also have thought that the 'large maintainance scope' would have included the labour for the oil and filter change - but I could be wrong. Its certainly confusing the way they've presented it, but perhaps that's the idea....
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the moral of this post is always ask the price before you book it in,query all costs and if everyone does this we wont be taken for granted as a cash dispenser
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It's because of this insane cost structure that I avoid main dealers for servicing. I operate a version of "bangernomics" but start with a fairly new car. This is important, because if you want a long and reliable life from any vehicle you have to choose it carefully in the first place, then get it out of the Dealer network before they've completely wrecked it through incompetence or neglect. Finally, service it yourself or get a trusted third party to do it - paying attention to the particular vehicle's weaknesses; they all have them.
This last point is most important and will do wonders for the life expectancy of any vehicle. This is one area in which a Main Dealer could really score with their model specific specialised knowledge - but they never do.
Obviously you lose the Main Dealer history, but I fill in the service book myself. The "bangernomics" operates for me as I tend to keep vehicles for a long time so the cost of any extra depreciation through not having a Dealer history becomes negligable and is in any case more than offset by the savings in maintenance.
I've just done this again with a 2 year old VAG PD diesel - a hopeful long termer due to a galvanised chassis and cheap pattern spares. If Daimler Benz (presumably that's what they are now Chrysler have thankfully gone) have by now recovered their formerly excellent quality, I would have thought that one of their products might also qualify for this approach.
659.
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I'm always pleased with my main dealer servicing, but it is expensive. Like the dealer said, an E Class Merc is not a cheap car to run. My 1998 Civic had a £660 service at the beginning of April. It's cheaper than depreciation.
However, at work we have a selection of farm tractors. The largest of which is owned by the particularly fussy driver. It has an 8.4 litre turbo aftercooled engine running at it's highest power rating for that block. This machine will run 12hrs at a time under full load, so it earns it's corn. It has a 400 hour oil change interval (how far can you drive your car in 400 hours with your foot on the floor?) and uses a full synthetic. And the price for this oil? £1.25 /litre! It's cheaper to change the oil on that relatively large engine than my 1.4 litre shopping trolley.
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I'm always pleased with my main dealer servicing but it is expensive. Like the dealer said an E Class Merc is not a cheap car to run. My 1998 Civic had a £660 service at the beginning of April. It's cheaper than depreciation.
I'm sorry but what could possibly justify a £660 service on a 9 year old 1.4 Civic? Are you utterly insane, why on earth are you main dealer servicing a car of that age and type? £660 to service a 1.4 Civic! What did it need?
Even the most expensive service on my 3 litre 5 Series at a main dealer is less than £400!
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I'm sorry but what could possibly justify a £660 service on a 9 year old 1.4 Civic? Are you utterly insane why on earth are you main dealer servicing a car of that age and type? £660 to service a 1.4 Civic! What did it need? Even the most expensive service on my 3 litre 5 Series at a main dealer is less than £400!
Thats about £12 per week and I'd bet includes the MOT, include depreciation and your talking around £1K per year (plus petrol costs), £20 a week. Thats good value in my book.
Do the same for your BMW and we'll see who's insane!
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..Do the same for your BMW and we'll see who's insane! ..
in reply to dox:
if there is one person on this forum who knows how to get really good (maybe even the best) value for money motoring, i would nominate michael-r without hesitation any day. (possibly may be evenly matched by david-hm). those two individuals really know their stuff when it comes to making money-wise decisions.
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They did an 80k service, changed the clutch fluid (I that is used the same as the brake fluid), it got an MOT, a new set for front pads and discs, it was washed and vacumed and collected and returned. I now have a car that ia approaching 9 years old, which everything, and I mean everything works and it drives as well as it did 5 years ago when I bought it.
Sure that is alot of money for a car that is getting old and is not very posh/big. But, it has just about finished depreciating and it's all paid for. The £660 for the service big bring a tear to my eye, but it won't be that expensive every time. If I traded up to a newer Civic, I'm going to have to go to my dealer with over £8k about my person. The interest on the lump some I have penciled in for the car is alomost keeping it in maintainance. If I spend that on a newer car it will still need to be maintained. As my current car is only neded what I would consider to be consumable spares, I am no better off by trading to a newer car.
So all in I consider the £660 once a year trip to the main dealer money well spent.
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So all in I consider the £660 once a year trip to the main dealer money well spent.
But you could have had the same job done by your friendly local garage for approximately half that. Would't £330 once a year be money even better spent, leaving you with a car in the same state as it is now?
I'm not saying don't maintain a 1.4 Civic - far from it, reliable motoring for pennies - but it isnt reliable motoring for pennies if a service is costing you £600.
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I'm not saying don't maintain a 1.4 Civic - far from it reliable motoring for pennies - but it isnt reliable motoring for pennies if a service is costing you £600.
She's not costing me that very year. I knew when I booked it in it was going to need brakes (they were what cost the money), they told me last year when they serviced it that it would need them next time. I'm always hard on brakes and they have lasted 4 times as long as they did on my old Golf.
No car of mine will ever go to a none franchised dealer ever again. I know when the come to pick it up to be worked on, that the service will be of a certain standard and genuine parts will be used. There is a garage opposite my house that could do the work. They MOT'd it once, when I had to have a retest. They won't see it again.
Next year the car will need the boots for the CV joints with the service. I expect £300 for next years maintainance. My sisters base model 55 reg Polo cost her £150 for the service and what, £2000 for the depreciation. Who driving cheaper?
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nb857:
I had a 1.4 Civic and the 80k service cost me £130. I agree with the others who say they can't understand why you paid so much.
You should always ask how much the service will cost before getting it booked in. Make sure you have a copy of service schedules so you know in advance of any work that will be carried out. It also makes it harder for you to be ripped off because you'll be able to check the invoice for work that wasn't scheduled, etc.
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>Engine oil & filter L =£66 P=£65 (inc filters)
The oil cost is remarkably low - what did they use? My dealer (and this seems pretty standard for MB) charges £12.95+Vat per litre for fully synth, so that's near as dammit £100 for the 6.5L in my C270. I took my own oil.
I think the other thing to bear in mind on service costs generally is that cars have far fewer services these days, and with almost everything being electronic there's little actual work to do - no carbs to set up, ignition timing, valve clearance's (on most cars) etc. My car is 30 months old and it's only ever been to the dealer once.
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Thats what they told me 20%... more for parts and labour just beacuase the car is still in warranty... .... " Well sir you see we try to offer a 20% discount to all car owners when the vehicle is older than 3 years ...
in reply to the grocer:
bmw offer simialr discounts to owners of older cars. by the way, your maths does not add up (it is a common error made even by supposedly numerate science graduates):
20% more is not the same as 20% discount. example.
start with £100 pre-discount price. apply 20% discount to get final cost = £80
start in reverse. £80 bill. apply 25% more to get back to £100 pre-discount price.
in other words if you are paying £100 and a older car owner pays £80 for the same service, you have paid 25% more than him.
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Sorry but if a £660 bill for a 1998 civic is good economics I am not charging enough. You should be able to run a 98 civic including mot and servicing for 2 - 3 years on that money unless a specific problem occurs!
As for MB charging extra 20% because its still under warranty I would be advising the same that if my bill isnt 25 % cheaper then they wont be getting any more sales or service work from me !
Robbery ! (Both examples !)
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I'm sorry the Op was screwed but it's his/her own fault.
Not getting a quote before spending money at a dealer is like signing a blank cheque...
I'm sorry but it is shere financial naivety..
ALWAYS get two competing quotes : or more. Takes only a few phone calls.
The hourly rate of return is several £1000 based on this case.
madf
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The last time I had a service, or rather my car did, I phones 3 x franchised garages and 2 x independent - they all had different charges - one of the Indies was more expensive than the cheapest Franchise.
Moral
Phone around even if you want to maintain Main Dealer Stamps.
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" Well sir you see we try to offer a 20% discount to all car owners when the vehicle is older than 3 years (read ex warranty) to encourage them to continue to use the main dealer for their servicing needs" (THINKS.... So Ive been ripped off by 20% for the last 2.5 years then £350 Im guessing)
No, you haven't been "ripped off". The older car owners are given a discount. When your time comes, you'll get the discount.
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L\'escargot.
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I bet everyone posting pays a different amount for the same effective work, unless a Skoda, where service/repairs was buttons.
They weigh the customer up, see how gullible they are and bill accordingly, just like real capitalists.
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TheGrocer is twisting what he's been told. The dealer never said they charge more for cars in warranty, rather that they charge less for cars out of warranty.
OK, you could argue that it amounts to the same thing, but when I'm an OAP shall I complain that everyone who offers an OAP discount has been overcharging me since I was a school-kid?
Are people who go on holiday in the school summer holidays paying a surcharge, or do the people who go in the off-season get a discount?
Everything depends where your reference point is.
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Well I'm going to be totally objectionable (so what's new?:-)... but £600 for a service for a 9 year old Civic? You can't be serious.
For that money I could service SWMBO's Peugeot 106 for the next 10 years....(I hasten to add I don't want to and I'll probably be gaga by then .. but less so than paying that kind of money for one service ... for ANY car..:-))
madf
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Honda dealers know how to charge if the one I've just used is anything to go by. Bog standard second service was just over £300+VAT (£360 total). That's 2 hours at £75 plus VAT and a bunch of consumables including 6l of synthetic oil at IIRC about £75 (costs me half that for Mobil1 at Costco).
To be honest I have low expectations if there's anything really wrong and the less they mess about with it the better, but it does irritate me that they don't even take the wheels off for this 'big' service (not sure if they're meant to, but I'm pretty sure they didn't.)
I decided to use the dealer as it's a CR diesel and I'm still a bit nervous given the views of subject experts here, so I'd hope for some goodwill if it lets me down after the warranty. I am beginning to wonder if I should just put the difference in the bank instead!
Colleague with 6 year old BMW 330D has a sticky gearchange - diagnosed over the phone by the franchise as a "selector cup" - £27 for the part, 2 hours at £105 per hour plus VAT! (wonder if that includes a 20% discount?). The local BMW specialist has quoted 1 hour at £35 + VAT.
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Colleague with 6 year old BMW 330D has a sticky gearchange - diagnosed over the phone by the franchise as a "selector cup" - £27 for the part 2 hours at £105 per hour plus VAT! (wonder if that includes a 20% discount?). The local BMW specialist has quoted 1 hour at £35 + VAT.
Sticky gear selection is very common on these (and obviously the 5-series that uses the same gearbox). Book time to do the job is 1.00 hours. If the rod oil seals need replacing as well then its 1hr 20mins. If the dealer was quoting 2hours then they were preparing to take him for a ride. I have replaced one of these, and even doing it for the first time does not take the full 1 hour.
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Sticky gear selection is very common on these
My 530i had this exact problem. My BMW dealer came out to the car, I showed them it was a tad sticky, and they instantly said 'New gearbox, that'.
A few weeks later, a brand new transmission was duly fitted to my car, free of charge, under warranty. To say I was staggered was an understatement, especially as the car had 140k on it.
My friend has just had exactly the same problem on his 330d - I tried his gearchange and yup, the problem was identical. His Indy just fixed it for £60.
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Are you really really sure they fitted a new gearbox? I find it staggering that they would, unless some kind of scam with the warranty people was involved. This stickiness is a very well known problem and fairly easy and cheap to fix - it is associated with the selector only, and not the actual gearbox. Replacing the gearbox would not fix the problem (if you understand what I mean). If the gearbox & selector assy was replaced then I would have expected some kind of warranty authorisation, which would have taken a day or two, to take place and then the old gearbox would have been inspected by the warranty people (this would be a major issue, not like swapping a waterpump or wheel under warranty!). Have you looked to see if it really is a new gearbox, or just a new selector unit which has been fitted?
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If Michael didn't get a new gearbox, more likely a scam against the warranty insurer. If a dealer has a good customer who's not covered and they can't get a goodwill claim through, there is a temptation to visit the fault on another customer's car that *is* covered under an extended warranty. I know this has happened!
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I am certain I got a new gearbox - it's nice and shiney underneath the car and they also did the clutch for at the same time for nil labour (It didnt need a clutch but I felt whilst the box was off it would be prudent for the future).
Car was covered by BMW Extended Warranty - renewed just before they changed the rules/pricing and banned 100k+ cars from it.
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Oh, and they did have to get authorisation from BMW first. Authorisation was granted for the gearbox replacement but denied for propshaft replacement.
Yup - propshaft replacement. Car would also go 'tink' when pulling away. Basically I just took it in for those two minor problems on the offchance the warranty would cover them.
Dealer said it needed a new transmission and a whole new propshaft - BMW agreed the box but not the shaft. Few months later I wrote to BMW GB complaining that a propshaft would be classified as 'Wear and Tear'. A week later, they telephone me to book the car in at my local dealer for - get this - propshaft replacement as 'Goodwill' with BMW UK funding 100% of the cost, car mileage @ 142k..
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BMW 320iSE 2005 8000 miles on clock. First service- Oil and Brake fluid change done last week. Cost 250 pounds. Had to use main dealer since under warranty. Changed pollen filter myself, saved around 30 mins labour (50 pounds).
Usually do oil changes myself, 250 pounds would have kept my old 3 series running for at lot longer than 8000 miles!!
Newer BMWs have got a computer that tells you what needs doing. (oil change, brake fluid change, brake pad change (front and rear individual), pollen filter, emmision check, spark plug change are all given individual time / mileage to renewal). Apparently varies according to how you drive.
Of interest BMW dealer tried to sell me an inspection check for 40 pounds. They would have checked coolant, screen wash and brakes (without taking wheels off!). I told them no thank you.
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What puzzles me is that a new gearbox wouldn't cure the sticky selection problem - because its a seperate part. Either there was a more serious problem with the gearbox, requiring its renewal, or some kind of scam (i.e. one of the techs had a car with a clapped out box and wanted your old one, hence made a case for you to have a new one). BMW warranty is tightly administered and large items are returned for inspection. The dealers are charged if the part has been swapped unnceccarily. BMW also now often supply used/refurbished parts as warranty replacement items, especially electronic items.
The propshaft I can kind of understand, because its a non-repairable item and it sounds like a joint was knocking. They do normally last a very long time.
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What puzzles me is that a new gearbox wouldn't cure the sticky selection problem - because its a seperate part. Either there was a more serious problem with the gearbox requiring its renewal or some kind of scam (i.e. one of the techs had a car with a clapped out box and wanted your old one hence made a case for you to have a new one). BMW warranty is tightly administered and large items are returned for inspection. The dealers are charged if the part has been swapped unnceccarily. BMW also now often supply used/refurbished parts as warranty replacement items especially electronic items.
Now you put it like that it does sound very strange. Whatever they did cured the problem - but I'm sure they did replace the box, especially given the zero labour clutch change.
Still, not complaining!
The Prop thing annoyed me which prompted me to write in - general concencous from others was that it was just something like a worn centre bearing which could be replaced but BMW said all that could be done was a replacement shaft, and it was wear and tear. I argued thats like saying a new engine is wear and tear becuase a seal inside wore out. They agreed, I was happy.
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"> it's nice and shiney underneath the car<"
"Yes sir, we changed the gearbox, if you look underneath you can see that it's nice and shiny."
>scurries off to hide the steam cleaner<
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Hmm...a friend of mine has a 3 series compact 1.8 I think with difficult gear selection - especially into first - could this be the the same problem? It's still under warranty but the local BMW dealer doesn't seem to have done much to it....
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">If you must drive an MB <" ...etc, etc
Stop whingeing, you bought a Merc and now you've paid a Merc price for some basic servicing. Accept it and move on.
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"Stop whingeing, you bought a Merc and now you've paid a Merc price for some basic servicing. Accept it and move on. "
I have to say IF I bought a Merc it would fall into 1 of 2 categories:
1. Old and DIY
2. New and money no problem
Anything else .. i.e. 2-3 years old or more and large bills = bad news...
madf
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Our main dealer (Renault) was happy to give a quote beforehand, using the car's chassis number to get an exact list of what was needed at that service . The final bill was exactly as quoted. Their policy is to automatically authorise by phone any work likely to increase the bill by £25 or more.
£800 for a service without any prior notification is inexcusable, IMHO.
Cheers
DP
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I've just had the 50k service on my Accord Type-S. Total - £292, exactly as they said it would be. They did point out that it needed new rear discs and pads, but went no further. They're also not concerned about fitting non-OEM parts. When it was Savoy that ran it, they would only fit "genuine" Honda parts (discs + pads + fitting, £215). Lookers, who run it now, aren't bothered. So, new EBC pads and discs - £65, fitting, £76, saving = £74.
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I would be very unhappy if my dealer presented me with a service bill for £800. At 4 years, my Mazda6's most recent service and MOT, I was invoiced £255.
Clk Sec
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