>>warranty claim rate is second only to Porsche<<
Actually you could be right rupert - I know of another German brand with very low warranty claim rates.
The standard response to any possible claim is "there is no need to conduct any warranty work on the car as that noise/defect is a charcteristic of the car sir - perfectly normal - although if it does get worse come back and see us"
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>>Take a successful brand ( whether you like the products or not, Vauxhall is an established brand in the UK ) which has been around for 103 years and each month is the biggest seller of cars in the UK or second only to Ford>>
Nothing lasts forever.. remember Rover?
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Lets have Opel. Their badge looks cooler! A bolt of lightning as opposed to a squirrel or something holding a flag..
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The General, Car magazine used to call it. World's biggest car and vehicle maker.
What's the matter with the British? Think a bolt of lightning's better than a gryphon? Pathetic. German engineering, pah. We can do it too. Or used to be able to..
Prince Henry. 30/98. Were they Opels?
Opel is the badge they put on Vauxhalls in Germany and the third world.
Damn good heaters. Something to do with the climate in middle America. Of course Ladas had good heaters too, for similar reasons.
Why not call all GM products Cadillacs or Oldsmobiles from now on? Some of the cars are all right but Chevrolet is a poor name.
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Lets have Opel. Their badge looks cooler! A bolt of lightning as opposed to a squirrel or something holding a flag..
Lol tanvir, good post.
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Just to elaborate on the above point I do find it amusing how companies benchmark themselves against the best in industry and then claim they can beat them after some programme of events. It really does smack of naivety to me on GM's part. What makes them think that Toyota are standing still and will not continue to improve. The reason people benchmark themselves against Toyota is because they understand that their prodution system is considered to be the best in the world. Toyota invented jidoka (stop the line and fix a problem on the car) which builds quality into the product and also continuous improvement (kaizen as it is called in japanese factories).
When you read about Toyota the workers - sorry associates are actively enouraged to stop the production line when they think there is a problem with a car that could escape to the customer. A toyota production line will/does stop many times in a shift to ensure any problems are resolved before the car comes of the end of the line. This is a far cry from some western car companies practice of get it made and delivered so we can achieve economies of scale and subsequent profit (I am simplifying of course).
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I know a few people who've worked for Toyota at Burnaston (Derby)
Your day starts with a before shift briefing, in your time!
Then warm up exercises (optional)
If you need to go to the toilet you raise your hand and wait for up to an hour for someone to releive you from your post.
Overtime is compulsary, there's a display on the wall that informs you if you have to work over up to 2 hours and can appear in the last hour of the shift, your burnt evening meal goes in the bin, your plans for the night ruined.
No one I've spoken to would go back.
Two questions, what must working conditions be like in Japan? And would you like to work there type's'
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If that is true, and it would not fit my experience of Japanese plants, then they are breaking the law.
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If that is true, and it would not fit my experienceof Japanese plants, then they are breaking the law.
What laws are they breaking?
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I'd start with Human Rights, work my way through the Working Hours Directive, have a go at harrassement and then slavery.
I suspect though that reality is just that little bit different to the perceived and.or reported situation.
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The O/T is written in the contracts. I've worked in factories for 13 years and health and safety laws are broken constantly, no union.
There was a report in one of the Sunday papers (NOTW?) several years ago which backs up what I've said above.
When you have X amount of production line staff on the sick, that line keeps running, you simply have to cope without those bodies. Simple as that, its the same in any factory.
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wait for up to an hour for someone to releive you from your post.
!! :-0
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Perhaps this is where some of the "contaminated" fuel is coming from which seems to kill c/r diesel pumps!
B I L has just taken delivery of a new Vectra CDTI? Why, because he liked it and wanted one. It replaces a Vectra SRI bought for the same reason. If the badge had changed in the meantime I don't think it would have bothered him.
I haven't been out in the new Vectra yet but found the old one an extremely good all rounder to drive and be a passenger in. The badge on the outside in this case would be irrelevant.
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Most of my friends do work at Burnaston and have no problem with it actually.
They see it as a fair day's work for a fair day's pay.
I think the toilet bit is being exagerated.
Dare I say it but the ones that do not want to go back are probably lazy and expected to turn up and do nothing all day.
From what colleagues tell me there is never a problem recruiting people - there will always be turnover of staff though as some will find working for a living too difficult.
The overtime thing is in the contract as you say and they use it to catch back on production if necessary.
I suppose that is the difference between UK productivity and productivity in the rest of the world and then we wonder why we cannot compete. I believe the Japanese car plants (wherever they are based) run at about 90% efficiency - I think the last time I looked the average for UK industry was about 65% - I will stand corrected on that one though. The most recent articles I have read on this are that Nissan are the most productive car maker in Europe.
I'm not really sure what people expect when they go to work - surley they are there to work.
The flip side to the coin is that Toyota value the contribution employees make and I doubt you will ever see Toyota laying people off. I think the last time they did was just after WW2 and the chairman resigned as a result of having to do it.
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www.bls.gov/news.release/prod4.nr0.htm
Thismight answer your question dox.
UK at rock bottom of productivity table - I'm sure there are other tables that will differ slightly but unfortunately we will have to admit we are not the most productive country in the world and reading some of the above makes it clear why now.
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Sorry - in the above I read the chart wrong - I think we are 4th from bottom statistically.
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I think the post about compulsory working over is correct.
A couple of years ago I was fortunate enough with others to have a guided tour around the plant and the assembly line.
I do recall that there were TV type screens around the line telling them where they were as regards the numbers of cars coming off the line and the number still required. I think it also told them how many minutes they were behind schedule and how many it would be necessary to work over to achieve this. So overtime would be necessary to make any shortfall in production for the day.
We were given a little seminar on the work ethos of Toyota and how it was imperative that any employee stop the assembly line if there was even the slightest problem.
It was very impressive but very different to a normal British industrial plant.
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So I am going to stop the line to correct a minor quality issue knowing it means I have to work longer that day to make up production?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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I'm sure you'll put me right should I be wrong but did'nt Toyota get into bed with Peugeot (Aygo and 107?) and insist production was taken to elsewhere in europe and this proved the final nail in the coffin at Ryton?
The lads I work with from Toyota are't lazy by the way, we work 12 hour shifts 4 on / 4off, days / nights and weekends.
Would you like to work there?
Would you like to speculate on working conditions in Japan?
They're making a lot of money, their cars have a similar amount of components to other cars, so the profit has to be from the labour costs?
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Have to love this conversation.
Japanese manufacturers are ultra-efficient, and therefore they must be slave-driving the workforce.
By that reckoning, the British/French companies must have been lazing around drinking coffee all day and not getting any work done.
I've seen European and Asian-owned factories in action (Philips vs Sanyo/Samsung in my case) and I have to say that the Philips guys were working harder, for less money than the Sanyo people. And the efficiency was still better at Sanyo. It's all down to management attitude.
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Two things an Englishman won't say on his death bed
I wish I'd spent more time at work
I wish I'd made more money for my employer
We work to live.
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They're making a lot of money, their cars have a similar amount of components to other cars, so the profit has to be from the labour costs?
Where did you get that one from? If the way to make more profit was simply to cut labour costs then every company in the western world would be at it.
Correct me if I have missed something here. If Toyota make the staff work overtime, then they pay them more money. That's my understanding of overtime anyway....
So, they encourage the staff to spot problems, this costs the company money in overtime, but results in less cost at a later stage in warranty claims, plus happier customers.
In every job, some will enjoy it, some will hate it. I doubt Toyota would be producing very good cars if all of the workers were unhappy. Faults would multiply, warranty claims would soar, ultimately the factory would close.
I believe the high profits may be something to do with high sales keeping factories busy, extremely efficient parts sourcing, etc etc.
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If the factories are busy, then so must the workforce?
If Toyota produce more cars per man does'nt that mean that man is busier?
Forward thinking management (I've been laughing all afternoon at that whilst doing my DIY), how many headlamps do they fit?
I'll always be a foot soldier ;o(
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If Toyota produce more cars per man does'nt that mean that man is busier?
Being busier is not necessarily a bad thing....
Maybe the man has more robots to help him when compared with his equivalent in another factory. Or maybe the man can 'do his bit' on more cars in a given space of time due to the design of the parts he has to work with. Or maybe the man is happier and more motivated than other men in another factory, so does his job fast and well.
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I just have to laugh at Dox's notion that everyone in a French factory is lazing around doing the bare minimum of work, and over at Toyota they've got the whip out and leading workers into an early grave.
Ridiculous nonsense. The inefficient companies are setting up factories in the Soviet Bloc and paying peanuts, and *still* not achieving Japanese efficiency. What does that tell you?
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I just have to laugh at Dox's notion that everyone in a French factory is lazing around doing the bare minimum of work, and over at Toyota they've got the whip out and leading workers into an early grave.
Its not my notion that the French are lazy, must be yours by implying they are!
Ridiculous nonsense. The inefficient companies are setting up factories in the Soviet Bloc and paying peanuts, and *still* not achieving Japanese efficiency. What does that tell you?
The Soviet plants are in their early days, they will come good. Funny that you brought that up, again car companies exploiting poorly off countries with low wages and high unemployment.
I can't compete, I want a good days pay for a good days work, so my work goes abroad. There's no manufacturing jobs left, when the next recession hits hows this country going to bounce back?
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Its not my notion that the French are lazy, must be yours by implying they are!
Not that the French workers are lazy, just that they are lazing around -- two totally different things. And anyway, yes it is your notion actually, if you think it through.
Japanese = efficient = slave drivers.
French = (relatively) inefficient = not slave drivers.
Therefore, French workers working less hard than workers in Jap factories.
And given that the French factories are *significantly* less efficient than the Jap ones, therefore they must be lazing around, by your reckoning.
In reality, the reason the Japanese factories are more efficient comes down to one simple mantra -- work smarter, not harder. And that is entirely a function of good/bad management.
I just wish you'd get off this circular argument of the Japanese somehow expecting people to work like slaves for low wages. You've implied it over and over these last few days, and it simply is not true.
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Reread my posts, I never mentioned the French until you said I did. I think you need a lie down.
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Reread my posts, I never mentioned the French until you said I did. I think you need a lie down.
I used the French as a typical example (as well you know). Replace French with any European or US manufacturer and you get the same result. The clear implication of your posts was that you were making comparison between Japanese working conditions and Euro/US.
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Answer me this then, why are all the manufacturing jobs going abroad? Use the Soviet Bloc as its the example you gave!
So basically this nation is lazy and ineffiecent (I've substituted the French for us) and do you include yourself in this statement?
Going to leave this one for now, let people make their own minds up ;o)
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So basically this nation is lazy and ineffiecent (I've substituted the French for us) and do you include yourself in this statement?
Again you're mixing inefficiency with laziness. I give up.
Perhaps this inability to recognise that efficiency can be improved without doing any extra work, is a symptom of why this country is in the state it is in -- maybe you're typical of the average Brit who, on this evidence, would appear to be incapable of thinking outside the box.
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>>Perhaps this inability to recognise that efficiency can be improved without doing any extra work, is a symptom of why this country is in the state it is in
I must be thick, perhaps you'd like to give me an example of how this could work?
-- maybe you're typicalof the average Brit who, on this evidence, would appear to be incapable of thinking outside the box.
Perhaps if the middle management in this country left their boxes (offices) and listened to the people on the shop floor instead of fiddling efficency graphs to make them appear to be better than they are, we would actually become efficent.
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Perhaps if the middle management in this country left their boxes (offices) and listened to the people on the shop floor instead of fiddling efficency graphs to make them appear to be better than they are, we would actually become efficent.
The penny drops.
At no point have I accused the British/Euro/US worker of being inefficient, quite the contrary, the Nissan factory in Sunderland is a shining example of what we're capable of when focussed correctly.
It's entirely down to bad management, who are obsessed with cutting costs, playing with efficiency graphs which have no relation to what is really going on, and feathering their own nests rather than getting anything useful done.
The like of Toyota know how to manage properly, know where the priorities are, and work for the good of the company rather than selfish personal interests.
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> again car companies exploiting poorly off countries with low wages and high unemployment.
And again, it appears on the face of it that your implication is that Japan is a country of low wages and high unemployment, when in reality they enjoy average wages slightly higher than the UK, and unemployment substantially lower.
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BMS maybe that man and his family are hungry and he can't afford to lose his job. Have you ever worked in a factory?
That man has to do his bit the line moves at the same speed for everyone and his given task has to be completed in the given time.
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BMS maybe that man and his family are hungry and he can't afford to lose his job. Have you ever worked in a factory? That man has to do his bit the line moves at the same speed for everyone and his given task has to be completed in the given time.
No I have never worked in a factory, but do understand the basic principles. It would seem that Toyota (and the other Japanese maunfacturers) seem to have a better understanding of these principles than some other makers do.
What I do believe, absolutely, is that an unhappy workforce would not be turning out a decent product. If your only motivation is the threat of losing your job then your work will suffer. We are talking about workers (people) in a civilised society here, they are not being slave driven to satisfy unrealistic targets.
One other thing though, I don't believe that the current Euro built Japanese cars are as good quality as those that were rolling out of Japanese factories in the late 80s/early 90s, so I am not saying that I think Toyota have reached some kind of manufacturing nirvana - clearly improvements are still possible. They just seem to be doing a better job than most auto manufacturers are doing.
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>>Answer me this then, why are all the manufacturing jobs going abroad? Use the Soviet Bloc as its the example you gave!
So basically this nation is lazy and ineffiecent (I've substituted the French for us) and do you include yourself in this statement?
Going to leave this one for now, let people make their own minds up ;o)<<
But the Japs are not really investing in going abroad - the bulk of their factory investment is in Japan, UK & US.
I love the way you finish with "not talking about this anymore - make your own mind up" by the way.
All I think people are saying is that the Jap factories are more productive (stats prove this). That does not make them slave drivers. Toyota work 2 hours on, 15 minute break, 2 hours on 1/2 hour lunch, and then repeat the pattern in the afternoon with a break before any overtime. The contract states that 2 hours notice is given prior to paid overtime (time and half) being requested for people to make arrangements with home. Bonuses are paid regularly when production targets are met. They also regularlry pay for the staff to go out as a team on expenses paid and this is built into the budget cycle.
I am not saying it is ideal but it clearly works as Toyota are profitable from being efficient (not slave driving) and workers get job security.
If the people you refer to are not afraid of hard work what was there problem with this ?
The alternative is to do what most other european companies do and take work to low cost economies leaving us with nothing but Supermarkets and call centres to work in. I'm sure if you ask the guys at Ryton what they wanted it would be similar conditions to Burnaston.
TVM queries the fact that people may not stop the line to enforce overtime. Well it is a bit more complictaed than that. Firstly it is cultural in Toyota not to pass a defect on and the teams know that more often than not tactical buffer is deployed within the line to enable this to happen without stopping on overtime.
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Going to leave this one for now, let people make their own minds up ;o)<<
This thread became a tug of war between me and jase1, bowed out to let others have their say.
You said Toyoyta were loyal to their workforce, but when they went into cahoots with Peugeot they insisted the cars were built abroad when Ryton could have secured a future.
The supermarkets have too much power in this country now and are going to finish off what manufacturing / production we have left. They get ever bigger and squeeze supplier prices ever lower.
Hands on blokes like me will become unemployable in the not to distant future as ever more is sourced abroad, milk from Poland, whats next?
Drinking white wine (and feeling sorry for myself), cheers everybody ;o)
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Why would Toyota be loyal to Peugeot's workforce?
It was up to PSA to fight Ryton's corner, and it appears they didn't do that too well. AIUI Ryton was too small to have housed the ambitions Peugeot/Citroen/Toyota had for the Aygo et al. They'd have had to have spent a lot of money getting it up to speed, and neither Toyota nor PSA are based in the UK so they have no loyalty to this country, that much is true.
Ultimately if our management hadn't been incompetent over the years Rover would still be going, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
Milk from Poland -- I agree this is ludicrous. And additionally it's highly ecologically unsound -- we'd be doing a good thing localising food supply again.
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