I have put down a deposit on an 02 Jag X-type, when I drove the vehicle the clutch was displaying symptoms of expiry in the not to distant future.
The dealer has said the RAC have found nothing wrong with it on the inspection they have had done, but I am still saying there is not a lot of life left in the clutch so they are going to have the car inspected by a mechanic.
I had agreed to buy the car on condition that the clutch issue is sorted, I have since slept on it however & do not want to proceed with the deal, I am not happy & want to walk away & take my deposit with me.
The dealer is starting to say he may get the clutch changed, but I still want out, in my experience when I get a bad feeling about a car it never goes away.
Am I within my rights to walk away & ask for my deposit back ?
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The important phrase is "I had agreed to buy the car on condition that the clutch issue is sorted". You have a contract so as long as the clutch is sorted the car's yours. Walk away and say goodbye to your deposit. However, surely the car comes with a warranty which may include clutch.
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so dealer had car checked you not happy, so dealer says to keep you happy its considering having a clutch fitted,in the meantime they have taken car off sale told all other potential customers the car is sold and you want your deposit back?
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I think you are on a sticky wicket with this one. If you put a deposit down on a car with a dicky clutch on the understanding that it will be sorted, and the dealer sounds like he is doing his best to get it sorted (having it inspected by a mechanic and talking about changing it), then you can't really back out of the deal and get your deposit back at this stage just because you have a bad feeling. Until the dealer refuses to fix the clutch or doesn't resolve it so that it is working correctly - to the standard that it should be, then I don't think that you will have much of a case for getting your deposit back. You can always ask nicely though.
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I ensured that the clutch problem was noted & written down.
Funny thing this, I don't know how to inspect a clutch without taking it out of the car & having a look at it, so is the dealer giving me a bit of flannel ? (I suppose thats one for the tech forum)
Yesterday before he had a sale the dealer flatly stated that it would be too expensive to replace the clutch at the price he was seling the car to me for, & if it needed re-newing he would pull the car from sale & re-advertise at a higher price. I accept this but I can't understand the turn round.
Dealer wouldn't put a full warranty on the car at the price I paid, so it was down to the "fit for purpose" sale of goods act which the dealer says won't cover the clutch even if it failed within the 3 month warranty period.
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>>Dealer wouldn't put a full warranty on the car at the price I paid, so it was down to the "fit for purpose" sale of >>goods act which the dealer says won't cover the clutch even if it failed within the 3 month warranty period.
Ah but the dealer has to issue you with some warranty by law, and it has been debated whether this is 3 months or 6 months, the time period is not relevant to my point. My point is that whether the clutch is covered by this warranty or not, if it was to fail within the warranty period I think that he would have a hard time trying to wriggle out of getting it fixed for you. I base my opinion on the fact that it has already been noted by you that the clutch wasn't operating correctly when you test drove the car. It was noted down in writing and you put your deposit down on the understanding that the clutch would be fully fixed to your satisfaction. So if it was to then fail within this warranty period I think the dealer would be on very shaky ground by trying to pass it off as your problem and not covered under the terms of the sale of goods act, as it was clearly defective before you actually bought the car.
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If the clutch was part of the contract then if the dealer makes it perform to spec by whatever means then I can't see you have an argument. You made an agreement, placed a deposit, if you back out then you should expect to forfit it. You wouldn't expect your money back on a guarenteed hotel booking you didn't show up for so why a car?
As for the Sale of Goods Act on a clutch in general, it probablty depends on the mileage but it's worth noting that manufacturer warranties usually do not cover clutches unless very low mileage so arguing it over a SoGA would be tricky. Clutches are usually in the same category as brakes, tyres and batteries unless it can be shown that premature failure of something else (a gasket causing contamination for example) is the cause. If you want a new clutch then I'm afraid the answer is to buy a new car.....
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Never believe the tears shed by any car salesman....:-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
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On the whole I have liittle sympathy for three classes of people,
Estate agents, lawyers and car salesmen.
However, I feel some sympathy for the car salesman in this case.
Sells a car, takes a deposit, salesman and punter accepts the clutch may be dicky (even tho the RAC says its ok) and says he will fix it before sale, and the punter still wants his deposit back.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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One of my close friends recently had a stint as an estate agent, and the first bit of advice he was given was, "Buyers are liars."
As to resolving the situation, I have no rational clue.
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What "symptoms of expiry" lead you to believe the clutch is on it's way out?
Is it slipping or just that the clutch pedal and bite is softer than you are used to?
Jaguars typically have a fairly soft feel to brakes, steering, clutch etc. It's what makes them so relaxing to drive.
If you are really concerned, have the car inspected by an independent Jag specialist (Jaguar World magazine has ads.)
Kevin...
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The clutch bite was just off the floor, on a hydraulic clutch this is usually a sign of it being at the end of its life.
I have rung a Jag main dealership & described what it was like & they confirmed my suspicions that it would need replacing fairly soon.
Having said that I think I was being a bit hasty in trying to back out of the deal, if the dealer changes the clutch I will gladly buy the car.
It's amazing what a stress free weekend away from work can do to straighten out the thought process !!!! not to mention a bit of "be reasonable" advise from the forum.
I'll let you all know how I get on.
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I sold a second hand car about 18 years ago (private sale). I was out when he visited but my mum showed him the car, they agreed a deal and he left a deposit (£100 in cash) as he was going to come back the next day with the balance and take it away.
He phoned the next morning to tell me that he had changed his mind and wouldn't be proceeding. I told him I was sorry to hear that. He told me that he would be around at 10.30 to get his deposit back.
I told him tough luck.
If you can get your deposit back if you just change your mind, then leaving a deposit has no meaning at all. He might as well have left me with a packet of crisps.
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I agree - that is the whole point of the deposit - it is a commitment on your part as buyer and compensation for the seller if he misses a sale whilst waiting for the buyer to return and subsequently doesn't
What flavour crisps by the way.
Jagman - I hope it is all sorting itself out to your satisfaction.
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Hi all, here is the latest on my saga.
Apparently the RAC have inspected the vehicle & found nothing wrong. I have a copy of the report & under the clutch/gearbox section there is no comments at all, now call me a cynic but if you had been specifically asked to check something I think there would be a note on the inspection chit to say it had been done.
The dealer is now saying the clutch is ok but I am not willing to buy the car as it still has what I perceive to be a weak clutch. (Jaguar want over £1000 to supply & fit).
The dealer is refusing to refund my deposit, or the balance of the deposit as I have offered to pay for the RAC inspection, I am going to take advise from trading standards as I feel I have reasonable grounds for not buying the car.
For info I am an engineer & I restore classic cars in my spare time, I think in this may help my case.
Any thoughts ?
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Who are the RAC (if it is them) acting for? If you want independent advice, you might want to seek a body who does not take tea with the garage.
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Nothing has changed
You are the only person who thinks there is a clutch problem, you have no proof there is and the dealer has proof there isnt. YOu tested the car with this "clutch bite issue" AND noted it and STILL put a deposit down, hence the dealer took the car off sale.
You have the choice of not buying of course, but you paid a deposit that the dealer can keep .Thats what a deposit is. Trading standards has nothing to do with it - you havent bought the car.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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If its a hydraulic clutch, maybe its taking cold air into the system when its sitting.... Happened to me because of old seals while back... Was it cold when you took it out for a test drive or have you driven it a few times
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>Apparently the RAC have inspected the vehicle & found nothing wrong..
>..but I am not willing to buy the car..
For glubs sake.
The dealer has been entirely reasonable. If you don't believe the dealers RAC report, then get a report from an independent specialist commissioned by yourself. It should cost you about £100 plus extraordinary travel if he's not local. Alternatively, as an engineer who restores classic cars you could always buy a clutch kit and do the work yourself.
>The dealer is refusing to refund my deposit,..
Which he is perfectly entitled to do. A deposit is a deposit and he isn't running a charity.
>I am going to take advise from trading standards..
If possible, do it on Friday afternoon. It'll cheer them up for the weekend.
Kevin...
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If possible, do it on Friday afternoon. It'll cheer them up for the weekend.
Kevin - I don't mind a joke but you are being plain rude !! I appreciate I should have done things differently but here I am and i'm £500 out of pocket
The dealer will not supply me with a written report on the clutch on this vehicle.
If I spend £8.5K on this & the clutch goes west in a month what comeback have I got ? its not as if I negotiated a super cheap deal.
His "word" is worth nothing, like my word means nothing thats why I insisted the concern I had was written down !
Yes I am well able to repair the car if it goes wrong, but hy should I spend this kind of money on a car & be waiting for it to break down, especially if my wife was driving at night in bad weather - starting to get the picture ?
Please don't start rattling on about breakdown cover atc 'cos thats not the issue here.
I have reported this to Consumer Direct (Trading Standards directed me to them) & they think there may a case to answer.
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Kevin - I don't mind a joke but you are being plain rude !!
I'm sure Kevin's reply meant to have had a smiley buried in his post somewhere.
That aside, I have to agree with the comments from some of the above posts that the deposit paid is generally non refundable.
Best of luck trying to get it back, but I really think you are on to a loser. Keep us posted as to the outcome.
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>Kevin - I don't mind a joke but you are being plain rude !!
It was meant to be blunt but not rude so slap on hand.
>but here I am and i'm £500 out of pocket
You are not £500 out of pocket yet, but like a few others here, I think you are heading that way if you continue on this path.
>If I spend £8.5K on this & the clutch goes west in a month what comeback have I got ?
IIRC, you have a legal minimum guarantee (3 months?) courtesy of Sale of Goods Act.
My advice still stands.
Get an independent specialist to inspect the car.
It is the ONLY way that you will obtain peace of mind that the clutch is OK, or enough ammunition to negotiate with the dealer for a replacement or a refund of your deposit, which is what I suspect you really want. In either case you've only invested the cost of the inspection and who knows, he/she may spot faults that you hadn't?
At the moment, you don't trust the dealer and you don't trust the RAC so what good is another written report from either of them going to do? If they come back and their report says "It really, really is OK" will you believe them?
As far as your approach to Trading Standards goes, I'd be extremely interested to hear the outcome. I can't see anything that the dealer has done that could be considered bad practice and/or illegal.
BTW. Consumer Direct is only an advice line. If they think that something dodgy has happened you'll end up talking to Trading Standards again.
Kevin...
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Totally agree with Kevin. It is only a matter of time before the dealer starts making life difficult for you. After all he knows that you won't buy another car from him. He has a couple of options; he either gets the balance owing from you or he puts the car back up for sale and keeps your deposit. Just remember that two professionals, the garage and the RAC, say the clutch is fine- you are just an amateur. If the legal people get involved this will be their opinion. I don't think you have a leg to stand on.
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Jagman,
You mention the imminent expiration of the clutch...
Whilst I fully appreciate that you may know what you are talking about, what precisely do you mean? I have a car where I was advised that the clutch was possibly on its way out 80,000 miles ago. That clutch is still there and working just fine, albeit that the bearing is making a noise.
Perhaps the RAC man was of the opinion that whatever was wrong with the clutch would not precipitate an imminent demise.
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I have rung a Jag main dealership & described what it was like & they confirmed my suspicions that it would need replacing fairly soon.
Well I never
Its only a Mondeo with a wood dash at the end of the day and a clutch change is not bank account breaking even if it ever did need it.
Sounds to me that you want to get out of the deal for other reasons.
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If the clutch fails soon after you take delivery don't you have some claim against the RAC for missing it on the inspection?
After all they are offering a professional service for a fee and should be liable if their service is defective (Sale of goods and Services Act) or is an RAC inspection just there to give the buyer a nice warm feeling!
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If the "RAC" report has not been shown to the OP, to back up the sale, I suspect it doesn't exist. If the seller is straight, he'll agree to an independent inspection.
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Went to see the dealer today, all very amicable, (as it has been all the way I must add) the car is going to Jaguar for an inspection & he will provide me with a written report, from my perspective this is great news, if Jag say its ok i'll have the car, if not......................
Lets wait & see what the report says.
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Do bear in mind that after 3 inspections saying the clutch is fine, if the clutch does fail, then you won't have a leg to stand, on in terms of the sale of goods 6 months warranty, as the dealer will have definitive proof that the clutch was ok when he supplied the vehicle to you and it will be down to wear and tear by you. Whereas if you hadn't made a fuss and insisted on inspections and the clutch failed within 6 months then the onus would be on the dealer to prove the clutch was ok when you bought it and he would probably end up having to replace it. I reckon it would cost about £400 to £500 to replace the clutch if it did fail, so if you don't accept the car you lose your £500 deposit and if you accept the car and the clutch fails it costs you £400 to £500, but then it might not fail and not cost you anything.
IIRC there was one case mentioned where a dealer took a punter to court when he backed out of a deal and the punter ended up having to complete the deal, paying the dealer the full price of the car and court costs.
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Right. You test drove the car, noted a problem with the clutch, put down a deposit, the dealer and the RAC couldn't agree with you, cyberspace friends wouldn't support you, and you still expect to enjoy long term happiness with the car. The six month general implied warranty will not apply as you have brought in an independent agency (RAC) who do not agree with your findings. Cough up, buy and enjoy but do not be the PITA waiting for a failure that no one else can detect.
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Phone call from dealer today, he has confirmed there is a problem with the car post Jaguar inspection.
Deposit to be refunded by mutual agreement.
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Phone call from dealer today, he has confirmed there is a problem with the car post Jaguar inspection.
Is the dealer intending to leave the car as is, and sell it to someone else?
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Phone call from dealer today, he has confirmed there is a problem with the car post Jaguar inspection. Deposit to be refunded by mutual agreement.
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jagman - well done. your instinct proved right and despite the lack of support from many here, you stuck to your belief and won.
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That's a better result than I expected you to get, especially if the dealer paid for the Jaguar inspection. Well done.
If you can put up with the extra hassle involved you might like to ask the RAC why their inspection failed to identify the problem. I suspect that the smallprint will absolve them of any legal responsibility, but promoting their service as extra peace of mind is a bit misleading. All the more reason to get your own independent inspection done prior to purchase I think.
Kevin...
PS. Extra Brownie points to the dealer as well.
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Some usefllessons all round here
A result for the persistent OP
A result from the dealer, in the end
Think twice about whether an RAC inspection means much
Have a good weekend and don't waste any of it watching cricket - a bunch of losers losing!
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The dealer has just got rid of a troublesome customer the easiest way he can knowing the customer is always going to be on the phone to him about the slightest problem.I would go with the RAC as being correct.
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