Diesel has had it's day - type's'
....according to the inventor of the common rail system, Fiats EVP of Powertrain research and technology development. He admitted that the EU wanted low consumption and CO2 so gave the engine designers time to work on other emissions and produce diesel engines with high levels of NOx etc.
Euro V in 2009 and VI in 2104 will require a drastic reduction in particulates (75%). Diesels are already 50% more costly to build than petrol and these standards will make them more expensive still.
It will be cheaper to modify petrol engines to achieve the Euro standards and also give similar torque, better emissions and only a 10% shortfall in consumption compared to diesels.
So basically to achieve the std, diesels will be much more expensive with minimal advantages.
2009 are the timescales for the new petrol engines. The complexity with these petrol engines will be in the software not the hardware.

Personally I have never been a fan of diesels because I always thought that they were stinking cancer causing lumps of environmental trouble (well more so than petrol anyway), so this is excellent news.

Diesel has had it's day - type's'
Sorry that should be 2014 NOT 2104 - that would be along time to wait.
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
Personally I have never been a fan of diesels because I always thought that they were stinking cancer causing lumps of environmental trouble (well more so than petrol anyway), so this is excellent news.

well thats unbiased. I have news for you sunshine. Petrol engines are down the tubes as well in the long term so go cry about that

------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
>>Petrol engines are down the tubes as well in the long term so go cry about that<<

Nooooooooooooooooo.

Actually Gramps, I think you're wrong. Because for every person that is concerned about economy and how far they can drive on one tank, there'll always be two others that don't give a toss and would rather hear the sound of a nice petrol engine at full belt.
Diesel has had it's day - grafen
Won't it be nice when we are all driving hydrogen powered fuel cell cars? I can't wait...
Diesel has had it's day - autumnboy
Won't it be nice when we are all driving hydrogen powered
fuel cell cars? I can't wait...



Can't wait either.

Then we won't argue about petrol and diesel engine which are the cleaner, but then we will argue who has the most Torque or BHP.
Diesel has had it's day - Hamsafar
What will they do with all of the fuel? Of course the petroleum industry will decide what the law is at the end of the day as their owners (Rothschilds, Rockefellar) run the governments.
Diesel has had it's day - madf
If you think a diesel engine will be 90% or somore expensive than petrol by 2014.. then wait for a hydrogen car..

Minus 250C or so to keep the hydrogen liquid presents a lot of expensive problems... and no spilling of any on forecourts.

A drop of diesel on your fingers can ve washed off. A drop of liquid hydrogen and your fingers break off.. As for scrap yards/repairs/back street garages.... Aprilia complains about common rail diesels .. hydrogen powered engines require space station cleanliness.. coupled with F1 fuel unions in event of a crash ... any hydrogen leakage in a crash could be lethal due to the cold and have interesting effects on rescue attempts...

The Health and Safety Exec would have kittens imo..

And we don't have enough power stations to generate the electricity to generate the hydrogen. Witha lead time of 10 years plus, volume hydrogen cars appear 20 years away.. we should be planning to double our electricty generating capacity.. now. So coal fired or nuclear?

Nice environmental problem?



madf
Diesel has had it's day - 659FBE
As long as we are directly burning fluid hydrocarbons, the diesel will be a clear winner in terms of efficiency. Who in their right mind would burn hydrocarbons at a constant air/fuel ratio?

659.
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
I'm only happy when I'm burning hydrocarbons at a constant air/fuel ratio.
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
I shall be burning a guy in less than a month.

Which guy?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
Totally agree 659 but efficiency and emissions are different when burning different fuels.
If engines were sold in terms of efficiency, diesel would win hands down. Diesel engines are even more efficient than petrol hybrids - but cars/engines are sold according to emission standards and diesels cannot compete with petrol on that front.
Diesel has had it's day - geoff1248
Of course there is always the possibility of nuclear powered cars--plenty of bangs for your bucks
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
North Korean nuclear cars perhaps?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - Stuartli
Quote attributed to leader of said country (somewhat off topic):

"I know I'm an object of criticism in the world, but if I am being talked about, I must be doing the right things" - Kim Jong-il

Frightening.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
>>Kim Jong-il<<

I bet he drives a diesel.
Diesel has had it's day - AlanGowdy
Good news indeed!

If petrol cars are going on sale which will give me 50-plus mpg without pussy-footing it, gutsy mid-range acceleration for safe overtaking, and cruising at the motorway speed limit with 1800 rpm on the tacho I'll certainly consider swapping my diesel for one.

Where can I buy one?
Diesel has had it's day - jase1
Good news as far as I am concerned.

If it means that my next door neighbour, who has owned a succession of old diesel cars which ALL sound like tractors, isn't going to wake me up every flamin' morning with his noisy jalopy I'll be a happy man.

Diesels may be great for the first owner. Old diesels are a noisy menace and I'd ban them if it was up to me.
Diesel has had it's day - Martin Devon
Diesels may be great for the first owner. Old diesels are
a noisy menace and I'd ban them if it was up
to me.

Try RAP 'music'. Makes diesels sound like, 'The Sound of Music'.

History is for learning from. Not for re-visiting!!

VBR................MD.
Diesel has had it's day - Cliff Pope
"I know I'm an object of criticism in the world, but
if I am being talked about, I must be doing the
right things" - Kim Jong-il


There's only one thing worse than being talked about, and that's not being talked about.
Diesel has had it's day - nortones2
Unfortunately for Type s thesis, DI petrols produce ultra fines in similar quantities to diesel. With the additional benefit of added benzene:)
Diesel has had it's day - DP
The whole hydrogen thing is a white elephant.

Hydrogen in itself is not a fuel, but a means of transporting energy. Given that you have to put considerable energy into creating the hydrogen, handle it with kid gloves to avoid catastrophic cold burns or explosions, only to get considerably less out when you burn it or shove it through a fuell cell, it can't really be called efficient or practical either.
Diesel has had it's day - LeighB
Surely the only point of hydrogen is that it is totally clean - or almost - as the only combustion product is water. There will undoubtedly be some N02, and miniscule amounts of CO2 from burnt lubricant, but these will be much less than any hydrocarbon fuel. However as already said producing it in quantity may be just as polluting.

Someone earlier in another thread mentioned that the H2O waste product was a disadvantage of hydrogen, but of course hydrocarbon fuels produce just as much water, a gallon of water for every gallon of fuel, or thereabouts. Hence the dripping exhaust on a cold morning!
Diesel has had it's day - Gromit {P}
"Surely the only point of hydrogen is that it is totally clean - or almost - as the only combustion product is water. "

The only combustion product at the point of use is water - but bear in mind the considerable amount of electricity required to obtain that hydrogen from electrolysis of water in the first place. Generating that electricity can be a very polluting business.

When the Japanese considered hydrogen as a fuel in the early days of fuel cell research, their conclusion AFAIK was that the only way to make a genuinely "clean" technology of it was to conduct the electrolysis using electricity generated from wind or wave power - which would severely restrict the amount of hydrogen available.

Conclusion: combustion engines have had their day. Eventually, we'll be driving fuel cell/electric hybrids. Or a horse and buggy.
Diesel has had it's day - Group B
Eventually we'll all be driving fuel cell/electric hybrids.


Apologies if you?ve already seen this. Saw something in the paper about it recently so googled it.

BMW is to launch a hydrogen powered 7 series in April 2007. The car is so expensive that it will only be leased to selected customers, one source says just 100 will be produced in 2007. It is not a fuel cell car but has a tank that holds 8kg of liquid hydrogen. Most sources say it burns hydrogen in the engine (dont ask me how that works), BMW are choosing not to go the fuel cell route to hydrogen power (but 4Car website seems to think it generates its own electricity on-board).

The power output of the 6 litre V12 is reduced to 260bhp. It has a range of only 125 miles on hydrogen, and 300 miles on petrol. BMW says at the moment the system will only be installed in the 7-series because of the space required for the twin fuel tanks. They concede that it could be decades before a refuelling infrastructure is in place to take over from petrol/diesel.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14798876/
www.easier.com/view/News/Motoring/BMW/article-7089...l


After that steam-hybrid 3-series, what are they going to think of next?

;o)
Diesel has had it's day - David Horn
A drop of diesel on your fingers can ve washed off.
A drop of liquid hydrogen and your fingers break off..
madf


Sez who? I appreciate that liquid hydrogen is pretty cold, but I've plunged my hand into a pot of liquid nitrogen for a bet before and been absolutely fine. It would just boil around your hand, or on your finger, and you'd be protected by the layer of gas.
Diesel has had it's day - stevied
Nutter!

Life on the edge...
Diesel has had it's day - DP
Like soaking your hand in lighter fuel and setting it alight. Doesn't hurt a bit as long as you can put it out before the fuel burns away. Otherwise it smarts. A lot.

Or hold the tip of your forefinger on an ice cube until it goes numb and then place a lit cigarette vertically between thumb and forefinger with lighted end against the part you numbed. Again, no pain whatsoever.

Misspent youth and all that.

Cheers
DP
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
Do you know something? Years ago I was filling a posh lighter up with gas and then went to light it triumphantly. I must have overfilled it because the whole thing caught fire.

Suffice it to say, I dropped it and then WHOOOMPH!! The carpet went up. I frantically stamped on it to put out the fire and to my amazment, the carpet was unscathed. (As was my hand).

I had a guess it was the fact that the fuel was burning and not the carpet but it's nice to have my genius confirmed.

Adam

P.S - At the time, the prospect of the house burning down was scary but in retrospect I imagine it was hilarious.
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
If petrol cars are going on sale which will give me 50-plus mpg without pussy-footing it, gutsy mid-range acceleration for safe overtaking, and cruising at the motorway speed limit with 1800 rpm on the tacho I'll certainly consider swapping my diesel for one.

Where can I buy one?

I think one of the first would be the Golf 1.4TSI.
Maybe not quite there yet but I think this is the first of many more petrol engine designs that we will be seeing with the characteristics of a diesel.
I'll wait for the follow up thread that goes into a finite level of detail explaining why the TSI is not like a diesel YET - but the point is this is the direction of petrol engine design.
Honda are also working on continuous VTEC that will give improved fuel consumption and torque like a diesel - due out in 3 years.

And just think AlanGowdy all this while not poisening everyone with diesel fumes.
Diesel has had it's day - stevied
My sentiments exactly, and the reason I am having a Golf TSi in February!
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
You've only just got an Audi!
Diesel has had it's day - stevied
I "have" to have a new car every six months as part of the loan agreement...
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
Such a shame!
Diesel has had it's day - stevied
It's a tough life! Actually it is, the car offsets a lot of job-related lunacy....

Seriously, it does mean I get to try out new stuff that to be honest I could not afford otherwise.
Diesel has had it's day - Xileno {P}
Diesel will still be king in five years.
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
I wonder if the Honda fans would be campagning so hard for the end of diesel if Honda could make a decent one that was economical and did'nt blow up.

I read somewhere that more pollution is caused by lawn mowers, generators etc than vehicles on the road.

If I were to rid myself of cars, buy a Horse for transport, used the horse emmisions to grow Rhubarb, would I live to be an Oldman?
Diesel has had it's day - Xileno {P}
What do you mean? Honda make what is one of the finest (if not the finest) 4 cylinder diesel currently in production.
Diesel has had it's day - stevied
Speaking as a diesel driver, and enjoying the torque and all that, I have to say that if I could get the same mpg and performance from a petrol it would be petrol every time.

Revving is fun. Petrol engines sound inherently nicer. Engines are lighter. Etc.

Honda's diesel is pretty good, as is BMW's. Would still have a petrol in an "apples with apples" scenario.
Diesel has had it's day - jase1
Where did that come from? Honda diesels blowing up? Evidence?

Honda diesels seem to be one of the few CR diesels that *don't* blow up from where I'm standing.
Diesel has had it's day - Statistical outlier
Probably said because early Honda diesels had a (now fixed) problem with the turbo.

It is a lovely engine, but four up and cruising at 75-80 on the motorway I still only get 41 mpg. Not bad but not brilliant. Saying that, I did notice that the kerb weight of my Accord is about 1600 kg. I'd be interested to find out how much more that is than the Octavia, which regularly gets 50 mpg, for example.
Diesel has had it's day - mike hannon
I guess as long as there are people who believe having two new cars a year is the norm it doesn't really matter whether you burn petrol or diesel - the waste of resources involved means any environmental arguments are straight out of the window.
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
Who's that aimed at Mike? If it's at who I think it is then it's not really very fair.
Diesel has had it's day - stevied
I take it that dig was aimed at me! I don't think it's the "norm", it just happens to be the way our company car scheme operates.

I am fairly convinced that the cars would be built anyway, there aren't that many of us.

If this is the "norm" for me, then I obviously look at how it impacts me: I am not made of money, so I weigh up mpg versus cost etc. and I am looking at the Golf TSi because in an ideal world I want a petrol car with diesel economy.

I am sorry I am not a tree-hugger, and yes maybe I should opt-out as a protest.... but I'm not going to. And that probably says a lot about me, I suppose.
Diesel has had it's day - mike hannon
It's nothing personal - don't mean to offend. It just seems like a huge waste of basic resources to me.
I'm not a tree-hugger either...
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
>>I wonder if the Honda fans would be campagning so hard for the end of diesel if Honda could make a decent one that was economical and did'nt blow up.<<

Eh ???????
Nobody is campaigning for the end of diesels - Fiats top powertrain man is saying that the focus will be back on petrol engines because they can achieve the EuroV and VI emissions standards much cheaper than diesel can.

And as for the statement above that diesel will be king in 5 years time - that may just be about correct because the diesel killing legislation does not really come into force until 2014, although 2009 will see the start of the demise, unless of course the car makers come up with some other diesel technology, like Honda has done and will be with us in 3 years time - kinda kills the argument above that dox made.
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
He said diesel will STILL be king in 5 years time which I'm not sure I agree with because it assumes it's king now....and I don't think it is.
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
3 Years, if they have this technology why does it take 3 whole years to put into production?

Sounds like the PR guy at Honda has done a degree course on Winston Chirchill
Diesel has had it's day - stevied
No offence taken now I've read that. Just didn't like the phrase "as long as there are people who..." wouldn't have given two figs if you'd put "as long as there are COMPANIES who..".

I kind of agree with you, although I still think the cars get sold on at 6 months via auction and all it does is create an artificial supply of 6 month old cars... but I suppose the resource argument does hold a fair bit of water.
Diesel has had it's day - rtj70
But your old cars after two years enter the used market. Someone buys it at somewhat less than a used car. This affect ripples through the market and an old, dangerous, polluting car is scrapped.

Because of how the used market works, fed by ex-company and ex-hire cars, we can all get newer, safer, less polluting cars at a decent price.

Me... I have a company car which has a 4 year or 80k limit. At close to 3 years it's not reached 50k yet so stuck with it a while longer. Which I'm fine with because no current problems with it (and few anyway) and being a Euro IV diesel registered before 2006 I do not pay the 3% BIK charge for being diesel ... a saving.

Rob
Diesel has had it's day - AlanGowdy
Hi type 's' - how're they hangin'? (I wonder what that means. On second thoughts, I think I know).

I don't drive a diesel through any religious or otherwise blinkered conviction - I drive one because I find the overall experience superior to that of all the previous petrol cars I've owned. I'll keep an eye on VW's TSI developments and if they or any other manufacturer's petrol engines can be made to match the characteristics that I value, and quoted in my earlier posting, I would seriously consider one. That goes for any alternative fuel that might become available.

Incidentally I forgot to include "bucketfuls of low rev torque" as another essential requisite.
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
>>Sounds like the PR guy at Honda has done a degree course on Winston Chirchill<<

Sounds more like a Company that will not put a technology into production until it is proven and can be produced with the levels of built in quality that customers expect.
Anybody with any knowledge of manufacturing knows there is a big difference between inventing a technology and then proving it for the long term and putting it into volume production - and I include all product makers in that. e.g. common rail diesel systems were not invented on Monday and in production on Tuesday.
corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=20060925...0

AlanGowdy - enjoy the diesel while you can because according to some of the experts it's days are numbered - not my views by the way.
By the way they are hanging just fine - what is that man smoking ?
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
I can settle this very easily.

If you want a car that has bags of torque and is more economical but sounds rattly, noisy, revs less and belches smoke then get a diesel.

If you want a car that is quiet, cheaper to buy, thirstier, needs you to rev the living daylights out of it to get anywhere but has a bit of soul, get a petrol.


Diesel has had it's day - AlanGowdy
Well put Adam - by those criteria mine's a diesel. It's a free choice and I don't much care what others buy - I'm a happy bunny.
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
>>Well put Adam<<

Thanks. With masterpiece posts like that, sometimes I think I should be a motoring journalist.
Diesel has had it's day - AlanGowdy
Well - you couldn't be worse that that ghastly Clarkson bloke!
Diesel has had it's day - PhilW
"rattly, noisy, and belches smoke ."

Well, I've got a diesel, so has my wife, my son and my daughter and we are missing out on these characteristics - where can I get a diesel with these extras? Do I have to pay more.! On yet another trip up to your part of the world last weekend (bloomin' outlaws again!) via M1, A 50, (a very congested) M6, M56 and M 53 I did not see one car or truck belching smoke.

The inaccuracy of your post does not, however disqualify you from being "a motoring journalist"!!

--
Phil
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
I think I can also settle this.

Whatever we want, whether it be diesel or petrol, it will be mandated by the future legislative bodies and the limit they put on emissions and the subsequent expense at which car makers can then meet these limits with the technology available and sell at an affordable price.


I will now sign off with my new signature (I have no idea whta it means but it's fun and I thank AlanGowdy for it.)

They continue to hang just fine man.
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
Oh and I should have added - if the makers can do this with the torque and consumption of diesel with the refinement and exhaust of a petrol then it's win win for all.

They continue to hang just fine man.
Diesel has had it's day - peterb
"If you want a car that has bags of torque and is more economical but sounds rattly, noisy, revs less and belches smoke then get a diesel.
If you want a car that is quiet, cheaper to buy, thirstier, needs you to rev the living daylights out of it to get anywhere but has a bit of soul, get a petrol."

Adam: awesome post! I tried really hard to like diesels when I last replaced my company car (there's a big tax incentive) but in the end the dreadful noise at turnover and lack of revs ruled them out. I do find the torque of modern diesels amusing, but I like the simple equation underpinning multi-valve petrol engines - more revs = more power!
Diesel has had it's day - GregSwain
If you want a car that is quiet, cheaper to buy,
thirstier, needs you to rev the living daylights out of it
to get anywhere but has a bit of soul, get a
petrol.


That'll be me then. Petrol engines generally sound happy at 6000rpm - 60mph in 2nd anyone? I like working the engine and gearbox, that's what manual cars are for. People who complain that petrol engines are gutless obviously never venture over 3000rpm before changing up.

If I wanted a car that clattered into life, sent a rocket up my a*se between 1500 and 4000 revs, and then had absolutely nothing at all from then until the governer stopped the engine from going "pop" at 5500rpm, I'd buy a turbo-diesel.

I don't like clattery engines. I don't like the sound of mechanical components being tortured so loudly and harshly as a diesel engine sitting on 5000 rpm. But..... I'd like to keep the rocket bit, because it's fun. So I think it's about time someone made a turbo-petrol. Or has that already been done? ;-)
Diesel has had it's day - AlanGowdy
Each to his own, chaps.
Diesel has had it's day - PhilW
"I don't like the sound of mechanical components being tortured so loudly and harshly as a diesel engine sitting on 5000 rpm. "

But why take a diesel to 5000 revs? I could equally say that I don't like the sound of a Focus petrol at 8000 revs.
By the way, at 5000 revs in top gear my Berlingo (!) would be doing 140ish mph! (as if!!!)
I prefer to be doing a virtually silent, apart from wind noise, 80 mph at less than 3000 revs.
As Alan says, each to his own.
--
Phil
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
Peter & Greg,

Exactly!!! I don't think I'll ever get tired of hearing a petrol engine nearing the limiter. Today, I dropped my sister off and took the scenic route home and didn't get lost per se....just didn't know exactly where I was precisely. Anyway - I stumbled across a fantastic country road - really nice sweeping bends leading into long straights and I thought - "Why the hell not?". Started accelerating and I thought...I'll change up now....I'll change up now....I'll change up now....but I couldn't...the noise is addictive.

Of course, I'll need to put a load more petrol in tomorrow but the noise of it cooling down when I got out of it more than makes up for it; it's all part of the fun.

I could have gone equally as quick in a diesel but I wouldn't have had half as much fun. That's just me though.

Each to their own!
Diesel has had it's day - PhilW
"I don't think I'll ever get tired of hearing a petrol engine nearing the limiter"

What have you got in that Focus Adam? A V8? If so then I would agree!
If you want the sound of "a petrol engine nearing the limiter" then come and mow my lawn - a Mountfield at max revs sounds as good as a standard Focus!! And then there's SWMBO's sewing machine, oh, and the Panasonic vacuum cleaner! - great on full suction!
Each to their own!

--
Phil
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
I really don't want to put a black mark next to your name Phil but I will if you force me to. ;-)
Diesel has had it's day - PhilW
"I really don't want to put a black mark next to your name Phil but I will if you force me to. ;-)

This may do it!!
Are you sure it's the sound of the engine or is it really you going Brmm brmmm as you scorch round west lancs!!
;-)

--
Phil
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
>>This may do it!!
Are you sure it's the sound of the engine or is it really you going Brmm brmmm as you scorch round west lancs!!
;-)<<

If that weren't true then I would have to be amending your details on the list but it just so happens that I have been known, on occasion, to make engine noises when making progress.

Consider it your reprieve.
Diesel has had it's day - PhilW
"Consider it your reprieve"
I knew you couldn't do it - those of us with beige cars have to stick together!!
--
Phil
Diesel has had it's day - Adam {P}
:-)
Diesel has had it's day - GregSwain
If you're a taxi-driver or a sales rep, buy a diesel.

Maybe it's just people who drive because they want to, not because they have to, who buy petrols to hear that noise and to feel a different sort of power-delivery. Besides, I can do 80mph at 3500rpm in my 1.4 litre petrol, and still get around 45mpg. My girlfriend's diesel Clio returns 60mpg, but driving along a twisty country lane without ever changing out of 4th is boring.
Diesel has had it's day - madf
It's nice to read such biased and ignorant rubbish... makes a change for the normal stuff here.:-))


Lets face it, if you are stuck in a slow moving line of traffic in a manual car, would you prefer a diesle or a petrol engine?

No choice.. A diesel anytime for the torque.

And what are British roads? Crowded or empty?


Crowded.

And is diesel cheaper to run than petrol overall ? Yes.

So in conclusion, the majority of posts anti -diesel on this thread are by drivers who never ever get caught in traffic jams and have an infinite supply of money and sheer prejudice.

:-)))


Oh and with a complete lack of knowledge of economics and the rela costs and pollution consequences of electrical power generation..

Hydrogen powered cars! Next it will be solar powered cars (which incidentally are of course far more environmentally friendly than hybrids or hydrogen powered cars but of course are neither fashionable or practical in the UK.


Hybrids and hydrogen powered cars are for the Notting Hill set where form beats function anytime and PR and spin triumphs over reality anytime...


Rant over...:-)))))))))))))))






madf
Diesel has had it's day - Big John
BioEthanol?

Diesel has had it's day - J Bonington Jagworth
"have an infinite supply of money"

Really? I thought it took several years' use to offset the extra purchase cost of most diesels?

The difference in fuel cost is pretty trivial compared to all the other expenses. I appreciate that there are other reasons for buying them, although none appeals to me...
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
Don't buy one then. Bottom line once diesel has had its day, the highest polluter will be the petrol engine, so make sure you record 8000 +RPM VTECs for posterity before you lose your freedom of choice too

Doomed, were all doomed
Diesel has had it's day - Roly93
Personally I have never been a fan of diesels because I
always thought that they were stinking cancer causing lumps of environmental
trouble (well more so than petrol anyway), so this is excellent
news.

All the fuss about particulates spawning comments like this are just anti-diesel FUD. Why should we soldier on with a technology (ie petrol) that is potentially always 30-40% less efficient than the equivalent diesel. Particulates are only soot after all, and you wouldn't move out of your house because you were afraid of the soot from your fireplace !
Without diesel technology how would we ever of been able to carry goods by sea or rail efficiently and reasonably cost-effectively. I would like to see them develop a viable 12,000 HP petrol engine for a container ship !
Diesel has had it's day - RichardW
Oh look another diesel vs petrol thread - that must be about 27 by now! We are not really representative of the general motoring public - we are interested in cars and motoring, and hold strong views, so it's not really surprising that we hold opposing diesel vs petrol views. Me, I fall in the diesel camp. As an engineer fascinated with things that go round and need oil putting in it just seems wrong to me to have rev tha pants off a cold engine to make it go, and I always have a smile on my face when riding the torque wave out of corners on bendy roads - not having to change gear allows two hands on the wheel for some precise quick cornering :-))

Diesel has far from had it's day in my book - I'm looking for a Xantia HDi to replace my current 1.9TD, and I reckon that should last 5 years / 120k. Then I will be into one of the current 2.2 HDi C5s for another 5 years, and then one of the new 170 BHP 2.2 C5s for another 5 years. So that's at least 15 years diesel motoring to come.

For me the sums do add up. My current 1.9TD averages 40 mpg. At 23k a year that equates to about 2600 litres, or £2340 (at the current 90p). The HDi 110 should be (much!) faster and yet return 50 mpg - equivalent to 2090 litres / £1880 (£460 less than the TD). The alternative is to buy a 2.0i petrol - these are around £750 - £1000 cheaper than the equivalent HDi - but 30mps is probably a better average.... 3411 litres / £2900. £560 more than the TD, £1020 more than the HDi. So, over the 5 years I save the cost of my next C5. Nice.

Did I mention I am also extremely tight.....?

The 1.4 TSi is a good idea, but it will still need to be worked hard to get the best of it, and then the economy will suffer - much as the Prius.

One day even Adam will have a mortgage, and realise diesel is a good idea....(although I am not prepared to lay any odds on it - they're just too loooooooong!!!)


--
RichardW

Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
Diesel has had its day - Xileno {P}
I will always drive a diesel. It's more than just finances - I only do 9K a year so am probably only saving a small amount.

I like the way they drive, lots of lovely torque for hills, effortless (and therefore safe) overtaking.

I don't believe all the hype about particulates, even if a gallon of diesel is more polluting than a gallon of petrol (and I would like to see the evidence), then over a year you're using less anyway.
Diesel has had its day - DP
I prefer the sound and the crisp response of a good petrol engine, and the noise of something like a Honda VTEC or a BMW M Power six on cam and WOT makes the hairs stand up on my neck, and I hope, always will. When out for a blast, I prefer a petrol engine's ability to rev cleanly and to give me a wide range of revs to play with. These are situations where I don't mind stoking the gearbox or keeping the revs up.

In all other respects and for day to day motoring, I prefer diesel. From inside the car at least they've been shut up to the point where they don't really cause offence any more. Mounting improvements have eradicated most of the vibes. And they almost always feel significantly faster than their petrol equivalents due to having all that torque on tap. Just having that instant, squeeze you into the seat shove available makes a car feel special in my opinion, and it's something you have to spend a lot of money to achieve with a petrol powered car. A diesel gives it to you in a humdrum family hatchback that costs pennies to insure and run.

It's not all diesel progress though. I would argue that common or garden petrol units have regressed in recent years. The average four cylinder engine in your typical family runabout now has all the life and character engineered out of it in pursuit of refinement and emissions. There is no joy to be had extending the majority of modern mass produced petrol engines - an anodyne whine and a dull, linear delivery are about all you tend to get. The diesel isn't perfect, but at least it feels interesting and even exciting across part of its rev range. Petrols nowadays tend to all feel the same unless you buy that Type R or M series Beemer.

The economy is the icing on the cake, but I actually think diesels suit modern cars and modern road conditions better as A to B daily drivers.

Just my fourpenneth

Cheers
DP
Diesel has had its day - Statistical outlier
DP sums it up for me. A good friend took me for a ride in his new Golf R32 last night. Very impressive, sounded lovely and blisteringly fast. I'm sure that its 40-70 time is nearly a couple of seconds quicker than my Accord.

But.

He is getting about 19 mpg at the moment. I couldn't live with that, it would cost me about £2-3k a year extra in fuel!! My Honda diesel is smooth, poewrful and refnied, and passes Euro IV without needing a particulate filter. It's a better real-world car for my needs.
Diesel has had it's day - J Bonington Jagworth
This should end the debate (or more likely start a new one...)

www.teslamotors.com/
Diesel has had it's day - mike hannon
Having re-read some of the above I wonder - while venturing to put my head above the parapet yet again - if the people who insist on having cars with lots of manual gears because they say it makes driving more fun might sometimes be the same people who want a diesel engine because the low-down torque means you don't have to change gear so often...
Why else are there six-speed diesels?
Just wondering.
I have a petrol VTEC - the real thing, not somebody else's take on the idea - and an autobox...
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
Chipped Golf PD diesel 6 speed gearbox (standard fit, not an option), when I'm really, really old and can't use a clutch I'll buy an auto.

Makes me wonder which car some of you would prefer if you were to test drive with earplugs in and an open mind.
Diesel has had it's day - GregSwain
Makes me wonder which car some of you would prefer if
you were to test drive with earplugs in and an open
mind.


Depends if I had a bottomless wallet too! A powerful Skoda Octavia with a PD engine would take some beating for a sensible family-sized car IMO. However, if I had a very deep wallet, I'd buy a Mitsubishi Evo 9, and enjoy the amazing performance and dreadful fuel economy a petrol-turbo has on offer. I'd also most probably die within a month of buying it.

When I'm a boring 40-something with a mortgage and 2.4 teenage kids, it'll be the diesel Skoda. For now, I'll stick to petrols because there's just something about them that I like more. I'd much rather hear an "anodyne whine" than a massey-ferguson clatter for the time being. BUT.... If I were covering 50,000 motorway miles every year, I'd soon change my mind and have the clatter-box.
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
Chalk and cheese. Go and test drive both petrol and derv turbo Octavias and make a decission based on real driving comparisions
Diesel has had it's day - GregSwain
Chalk and cheese. Go and test drive both petrol and derv
turbo Octavias and make a decission based on real driving comparisions


I wouldn't have a petrol Octavia, so I wouldn't want to test-drive them. VW's best engines are their diesels, and the more I read about PD vs. CR, the more I'd rather buy a VW than any other new diesel. Despite owning a petrol car, I actually drive more miles in diesel vehicles at the moment, so I'm well aware of the driving characteristics and the economy. I'm barely doing 8k a year at the moment in my Almera, so I'd save very little by going down the diesel route.

Only 15 years ago, people were laughed at for buying diesels as it labelled them a "skinflint" - they'd much rather have a petrol as they were quieter and more refined, although diesel was cheaper to buy at the forecourt. Now it's cool to drive a diesel, and petrols are all powered by sewing machine motors (allegedly). Diesel is also a good 5p/litre more expensive where I live. Given the excellent turbo-diesels which Peugeot produced 15 years ago, in contrast with the huge repair bills for dodgy CR injection systems today, it seems like people were so long in warming to diesel engines, that by the time they were accepted as "normal", they had become unreliable, expensive money-pits, while petrol engines had reached a level of refinement and quietness that diesel drivers could only dream of. Just a thought ;-)
Diesel has had it's day - Group B
I'd much rather hear an "anodyne whine" than a massey-ferguson clatter
for the time being.


Its a case of each to their own, Greg, just like you dont like the sound of diesels, I don't understand how you can like the whine of a modern small 16v 4-cyl engine. I used to have a 16v car from back in the days when 16v heads were fitted purely for performance reasons, not emissions and economy. That used to sound pretty good because it didn't have a cat and the standard exhaust back box was a fairly free-flowing one. But that car did about 22mpg, and as 85% of my driving is now boring motorway commuting, it would be expensive and tiresome to drive. And it didnt sound half as good as the 5 cylinder Audi I had before it.

I think if you're 'into' cars then you can grow to appreciate the noise your own car makes. My diesel clatters at idle and feels like they forgot to put the balancer shafts in it. But smooths out with more revs and sounds quite purposeful when working hard, I think its due to the 2.2 litre capacity that it sounds quite meaty. You will probably think it sounds like a load of loose spanners is spinning round inside it. But at least it sounds like it is powered by a series of explosions, not like an electric motor.

In a perfect world I would have something with a 6 litre V8 petrol engine with gods favourite exhaust note and tons of low down torque.
But its not, so I dont... : o(


Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
In a perfect world I would have something with a 6 litre V8 petrol engine with gods favourite exhaust note and tons of low down torque.
But its not, so I dont... : o(

VTecs, Mpower, diesels, engine wise all sound equaly pathetic. To sound good it needs 8 or more cylinders and tuned exhaust pipes.


YOu must be aurally challenged if you think a Vtec sounds good,

------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - Martin Sweeney
If there was some outcry from diesel drivers for 6 speed gearboxes, I never heard it or asked for it. Anybody who actually drives diesels knows that unlike most petrols, they are so flexible and leggy that they don?t need a load of gears and would be just fine with 5. I guess a very long 6th might eak out more motorway mpg but hardly an essential. I suspect that the 6 speed gearbox was another solution to a problem that existed only in the mind of someone at marketing HQ.

As someone remarked earlier I can only assume that those criticising the sound of diesels are all driving some lovely barrel engined 6 or 8 cylinder motors because IMO there are precious few 4 cylinder petrols that sound like anything much at all, unless you need them to shift, at which point you?ve got to poke with a sharp stick whereupon they sound like a horse with scorched deleted and proceed to not actually shift that much; oh and then you?ve got to pull over and low-life it in the service station for the 4th time that week. At least with a 6 cylinder petrol and up the only real downside is having to spend so much time filling it up but on regular long journeys that time and agro really adds up. A modern V6 diesel sounds hugely better than any 4 cylinder petrol I?ve heard and as good as most V6 petrols, though it?s a different sound and for long distances the diesel is the more relaxed and quiet cruiser. 4cylinder diesels are slightly noisier at idle than their direct petrol counterparts but not massively so and when you stack up the range and the performance benefits of diesel then you?ve really got to be nothing more than tootling around town to want the petrol. If we?re being honest nothing south of a meaty V8 genuinely stirs the soul so as a reason for not buying a diesel, the noise comparison to a petrol strikes me as fairly lame. As I mentioned in a recent thread when petrol engines match the torque and range of their diesel counterparts, and VAG and BMW engines are heading that way then I?d have no problem driving one but currently, for my needs i.e. a powerful, relaxed, quiet car which will let me spend more time driving and less time standing on forecourts then it?s a no-brainer for the diesel. If my journeys consisted of nothing more than a 10 mile commute , a trip to the pub for lunch, the bottle bank etc. then I could see that petrol makes sense. There?s no definitive better or worse between diesl and petrol just the best car for your needs at a particular time.

Diesel has had it's day - DP
YOu must be aurally challenged if you think a Vtec sounds
good,


In your opinion.

I just don't think a V8 and tuned pipes are the be all and end all, nice as they often are. Induction noise can be as compelling as exhaust note which is where the likes of the VTEC and the BMW S54 unit make the hairs stand up on my neck. It's also why Kawasaki motorcycle engines rank among my personal favourites, but many will dismiss them as sewing machines. Get one at 12,000 RPM on a pinned throttle with your head right over the airbox and it's a different matter.

Personal choice at the end of the day. I like the noise made by the TVR Griffith 500, but I also think a Vauxhall C20XE running on a tubular manifold and twin 40 DCOE Webers sounds glorious. The MV Agusta F4's radial valve four is just as spine chilling as a Ferrari F360's V8. Engine configuration is irrelevant in my opinion.

Cheers
DP
Diesel has had it's day - mike hannon
Ok TVM, if I leave my VTEC ticking over outside your house in the middle of the night I reckon you won't mistake it for a black cab or a tractor. In fact you will have to strain to hear it at all. That's what I call an aural challenge. :-)

Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
Well if thats the best reason you can come up with for not buying a diesel I think you've lost the arguement, as us diesel owners are so tight fisted we'd turn our engines off and freeze before wasting money ;o)
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
Some fantastic debate here about the pros and cons of diesel v petrol and at the end of the day we all buy what we want. (I also find it hilarious how people get so personal about it).
The point of the thread was that even if we all wanted to buy diesels, in the not too distant future we will not be able to do it - if the EVP of Fiats power-train division is correct in what he says. And when you examine his credentials I think we all would agree that he knows a thing or two. (He does say that the biggest cars/suv's and vans and lorries will remain diesel powered though).
So like it or lump it, the car makers will develop petrol engines over diesel ones regardless of what we say here.
So chill out driver dudes and get used to driving petrol cars in the future that will have many diesel charecteristics once they have mastered the software. It's win win guys.
Remember your not an inferior person because you drive a diesel while there is no future in diesel powered cars - it's ok - for now anyway.
Diesel has had it's day - Martin Sweeney
Well as there's ultimately no future in the internal combustion engine in it's present form neither party can claim any superiority, as we're all tootling around in dinosaurs when we were promised hoverjets and maglifts. However living in the here and now, for me, same car and engine size in diesel or petrol, the former is clearly the choice of the moment. And that's from someone who is can't wait to get out of a petrol and into a diesel at the end of November.
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
Leav eit there ticking over, no problem.

Oh it wont be there in the morning tho.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
And where does the original snippet come from .....Fiat, I wonder if the major diesel sellers are as negative to the future of diesel engines?
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
MartinSweeney - the original post talks about petrol engines - these are internal combustion engines. I have provided a link below to help you understand - just trying to help clarify because I think you are confused about the internal combustion thingy. Enjoy your new diesel by the way.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine


Dox, Fiat are pretty good at making diesel engines actually - the link below is an article on how the Fiat diesel multijet won engineof the year award in 2005 so they know what they are on about - after all the guy that stated he thought that car makers would turn to petrol to meet future emission standards did invent the common rail system so he is probably one of the best diesel engine brains in Europe. What makes you think he does not know what he is talking about ? ANd when exactly did he say anything negative about diesel - he did not - I did because I love to see the emotion that this stuff generates on this forum.
www.carpages.co.uk/fiat/fiat-multijet-diesel-engin...p
Diesel has had it's day - Martin Sweeney
I'm sorry I fail to see how your linky has any bearing on the inevitable demise of the internal combustion engine. What point were you trying to make?
Diesel has had it's day - cheddar
>>if I leave my VTEC ticking over outside your house in the middle of the night I reckon you won't mistake it for a black cab or a tractor. In fact you will have to strain to hear it at all. That's what I call an aural challenge. :-)>>

I can see it now......

"buy a diesel, better economy, more torque and if you are a bit mutt n' geoff like Mike H then you wont leave it running all night"


;-)
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
I also thought it had nothing to do with the demise of the internal combustion engine - it's just you said it above.
I was just trying to help that was all.
Diesel has had it's day - Martin Sweeney
I'm sorry, now you're making even less sense. What exactly were you trying to help out on with the link?
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
>>Well as there's ultimately no future in the internal combustion engine in it's present form neither party can claim any superiority<<

OK I'm helping now - not being sneery.
My OP talked about the future emissions standards and how a very clever man in engine design thinks they can only be achieved affordably with petrol engine technology.
You said the above.
Based on what you said above I thought you did not understand what an internal combustion engine was - becasue they have petrol, which is what this thread is about to which you said it has no future.
This thread was about emissions from an internal combustion engine in the near future 2009 - 2014. The very clever man did not say that emissions could only be achieved with "promised hoverjets and maglifts".
So what was your point ?
Diesel has had it's day - Martin Sweeney
My point was exactly as per the quote

>>Well as there's ultimately no future in the internal combustion engine in it's present form neither party can claim any superiority<<

Irrespective of the fuel used, the internal combustion engine will be inevitably be laid to rest, so there's damn all point in either petrol or diesel drivers claiming superiority in respect of driving a future-proof vehicle since they're all going to end up on the scrapheap.
Diesel has had it's day - stevied
Well, as a result of the laws of entropy, the universe is slowly collapsing in on itself so EVERYTHING is doomed, rendering all human endeavour ultimately futile.

Just a thought.

And a shiny penny to anyone who can guess where I got that quote from.
Diesel has had it's day - M.M
>>a shiny penny to anyone who can guess where I got that quote from.

Private Frazer???
Diesel has had it's day - Statistical outlier
And a shiny penny to anyone who can guess where I
got that quote from.


That would be the one time when a "part troll" would be welcome on this forum I would guess. Am I right?
Diesel has had it's day - stevied
Shiny penny to Mr Gordon M! Well done.
Diesel has had it's day - mike hannon
Thanks Cheddar - I knew as I typed it that somebody would remember! Of course, if it had a loud rattly tickover I might have heard it, gone out and switched it off...
See you in the Bath Arms!
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
When was the last time that Fiat made a car of family size or larger that sold in significant numbers that would benefit from a diesel engine?

Fiat are good at small hatchbacks that have no need for torquey diesels and they're skint!

Why are Honda ( your god) investing in this super diesel engine if Mr Fiat says they're doomed? Tail wagging dog comes to mind ;-)
Diesel has had it's day - tr7v8
Fiat have a massive car market in europe & also their engines are used in commercials & generators & water pumps in massive numbers.
Honda have started selling into the company car market in the UK & because of the BIK bias to diesels have no option but to produce a diesel. Would diesel sales in the UK be so great without the Co. car market?
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
But were talking about cars and the bloke from Fiat says the diesel engine is doomed in car production.

As I see it this guy has been given a budget (a small one) for engine developement for the next "X" years, the budget is'nt big enough to improve both petrol and diesel to meet future emmision standards, so hes plumped for the easy option....petrol

Has any other manufacturer stated that diesel engines have no future? No. Honda say they've already developed an engine that meets the regulations. This to me more than cancels out the comment from Fiat that the future of diesel engines in a passenger car is doomed.

Tractors, pumps, generators etc as far as I'm aware do not need to comply with emission regulations at the moment


Diesel has had it's day - jase1
> ....according to the inventor of the common rail system, Fiats EVP of Powertrain research and technology development.

???

Fiat didn't "invent" the common rail system.

The initial R&D was done by the Swiss, the first production CR engine was Japanese (Denso) and it was Bosch who brought the first car systems to market. Fiat did some development work, but that's an awful long way from Fiat Powertrain inventing common-rail diesel.
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
Why are Honda ( your god) investing in this super diesel engine if Mr Fiat says they're doomed? Tail wagging dog comes to mind ;-)

I know - Honda always get it wrong don't they - late getting to the diesel market and now investing in it - wot a bunch of plonkers. Honda actually say they can devlelop diesels to match petrol emissions. This is even worse for everyone because it means that if you want a diesel in the near future - you will have to buy a Honda - you lucky bunch.

Dox - what kind of incense do you think I should burn on my altar to Honda - please do not say diesel scented.

jase1 - just goes to show you cannt believe what you read and we have all wasted 112 posts - damn - where were you when I started this.
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
Would'nt bother me owning a diesel Honda providing it meets my requirements and that the diesel engine gives diesel economy.

I don't beleive that only Honda will be able to meet the targets anyway, but if no manufacturer did meet them are you seriously expecting the car manufacturers to shut up shop and walk away? Would the whole world suddenly grind to a halt just because someone set an impossible to meet target or would the powers that be move the goalposts?
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
They would move the goalposts as the EU have done already.
Toyota lobbied them a couple of years ago to introduce tougher diesel emission standards then because they had the technology to reduce them, and clearly wanted to gain a competitive edge.
The EU would not do this because of the impact on Euro shed sales.

I'm glad your converted to Honda - they are really good you know Dox - you will love them.
Diesel has had it's day - George Porge
Plenty of time yet. Would'nt be the current Civic, I'd rather push a Golf than drive one of those
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
So what cars is this wonder diesel in now then? what current toyota cars is it in? why are they all sporting run of the mill common or garden oil burning lumps.?
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
It's the engine below - the extract is from cars.com and was posted Sept 04.
They were lobbying on Nox emissions not CO2 remember.

"Toyota says the D-4D 180 engine with its common-rail technology delivers nitrous oxide and particulates, blamed for contributing to smog, in levels that are as much as 80 percent below the stricter forthcoming Euro 5 emissions standards in Europe. While clean, it is also powerful, delivering 180 horsepower and 295 pounds-feet of torque."
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
Sorry TVM - I did not answer your question.
I think you can buy this in Avensis, RAV4 and Verso.
Maybe also Lexus IS D220
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
The 2.2 litre 177bhp D-4D direct injection engine of the T180 will take the Avensis past 62 mph in 8.6 sec. and on to 137 mph, yet its fuel economy is rated at just 46.3 mpg combined and its emissions are well within Euro IV limits.

The other grades feature the 2.2 litre 140 D-4D direct injection engine which will Avensis past 62 mph in 9.3 sec. and on to 130 mph, whilst fuel economy is rated at just 47.1 mpg combined and its carbon dioxide emissions are just 156g/km.

The all new 2.0 litre turbocharged D-4D engine* has an incredible balance of performance and low emissions - 130 bhp, maximum torque of 300 Nm, maximum speed 127 mph, acceleration to 62 mph in 11.1 seconds, fuel economy on the combined cycle 51.4 mpg, CO2 emissions 146 g/km.


As I said, all average run of the mill common or garden common rail diesel engines, certainly nothing there that I can see would make other makers quake nor force the EU to "fix" standards to suit "euroboxes"
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
TVM - I think you miss the point - the thread is all about forthcoming euro V and VI emissions - specifically the reduction required in Nox - Toyota have developed a product that is well within - beating it by 80% - not quite run of the mill.

If the thread was to do with consumption and torque etc - the yes it is run of the mill - but not on Nox reduction which is what we are talking about.
I'm not sure if it will achieve 2014 standard though. - it is already 2 years old remember.
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
Anyway, dont worry after all its still a stinking cancer causing lump of environmental trouble
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
I'll take that as a submission
Diesel has had it's day - Lud
Anyway, dont worry after all its still a stinking cancer causing
lump of environmental trouble


Er... hesitate to suggest this TVM, but do you mean a 'motor vehicle' by any chance?

Of course everything is toxic and helps to wear us out.
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
i was merely quoting the OP's assertion about diesels at the head of this thread.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
No - in TVM's defence on this (and I hope he does not mind me saying) he was turning it back onto me as this was made in jest during my OP.
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
Obviosuly quicker on the keyboard than me TVM
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
And you sahre my keyboard dyslexia 's' type.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
I do wish HJ would give us speel chekc
Diesel has had it's day - Altea Ego
or even an idit betton
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Diesel has had it's day - type's'
Do really want to know what the best thing is about this thread - having started off with my OTP comment in jest and comments on an interview with Fiat power train EVP on diesel emissions, I've ended up discussing how clean some of them are and that they achieve Euro V already.

How good am I at this posting lark ?
Diesel has had it's day - cheddar
Re the Toyota engines, the 2.2 150 and 2.0 130 they are not really that competitive on the torque front at 310nm and 300nm respectively and I have driven a T180, it is good, very refined, though does not produce enough of it's 400nm below 2000rpm and does not really feel like 177bhp.

I thought the T180 with it's piezzo injectors etc would be the next step in diesel tech though it does not really move the game on. Looking forward to trying the PSA/Ford 2.2 170 twin turbo, might have to try it in a 407 first, this however is listed by Peugeot as 370nm, less than the T180 and current Ford/Jag 2.2, though it will be interesting to see how it's low speed torque chareteristics are helped by the secondary small turbo.
Diesel has had it's day - Statistical outlier
It appears that the US are taking hte first tentative steps towards diesel being more of a factor:

tinyurl.com/yztrj2 (FT article)

Will be interesting if VW or any other EU manufacturer can make any inroads...
Diesel has had it's day - IanJohnson
Oh no it hasn't


Car diesels, even with Common rail, are relatively undeveloped compared to marine and rail engines, e.g.

Vauxhall 4 valves per head - first for a car diesel - 1996? - English Electric were supplying them in the 1950s.

Turbocharging and intercooling - again 50s and 60s, not 80s

Also found this the other day , bit too big to fit in the car people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/

This common rail diesel engine is more efficient than a coal fired power station (So diesel really is cleaner than a Prius). Just wait for the technolgy to work down to the cars where, to date, other factors have been more important than efficiency and cleanliness.
Diesel has had it's day - Sofa Spud
Re that huge 2-stroke diesel ship engine - supercharged 2-stroke 'uniflow' diesel engines did enjoy some popularity in commercial vehicles and in locomotives.

Foden offered their FD and FE 2 strokes up until the 70's, though most of their lorries had Gardner engines. Commer used their unusual 3 cylinder opposed-piston TS3 engine while some Bedford TMs had Detroit Diesel 2-stokes.

The famous Deltic diesel loco took its name from the two Napier Deltic 18-cylinder, 36-piston, 3-crankshaft opposed piston supercharged 2-stroke engines - surely one of the most unusual engine designs ever!

The Class 59 and 60 freight locos common today have GM 2-strokes too.

 

Ask Honest John

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