Warranty Woes - K. Lynch
Dear Motorist,

I am unhappy with Ford Motor Company regarding the repair of a common fault on the current Mondeo range, namely rear suspension / sub frame bushes, which come loose and cause a disturbing knocking noise from the rear of the car.

I exercised my consumer rights and brought the car to my local non franchised mechanic who I have happily used for 17 years with complete satisfaction, he duly informed me that the bushes had gone, which was a relatively common repair. I enquired if the repair would be covered under warranty as the car was under 3 years old and had less than 60 k miles on the clock, he said that it might be but would check.

I also checked with Ford by phoning their customer service line, they told me that it was a wear & tear item and not covered by warranty, I challenged this and the customer service representative said "we can argue this point all day long but it is not covered by warranty, goodbye" and duly put the phone down on me, hardly good customer relations!

I then instructed my mechanic to effect the repair. He replaced two of the four bushes, however, shortly after the repair was carried out the knocking noise returned, so my mechanic took the car back and replaced the other two bushes. However, within hours I was aware that the problem had not been sorted so the mechanic drove with me in the car to listen to the noise and he decided to carry out further checks on the drop links. He found that the drop links were fine and drew a blank.

I then took the car to the nearest Ford franchised dealer, who reported that the original fault was a warranty repair but because I had the repair carried out before and that that repair was defective that they could not rectify the fault under warranty.

My grievance is that I believe in the first instance I was mislead by the Ford Customer Service helpline who told me that it was not a warranty repair. The fact that I then exercised my rights as a consumer to use a non franchised dealer to effect the repair is neither here nor there.

I spent over an hour on the customer service line speaking (very calmly) to the representative and then to his supervisor, who as I thought latched onto the "non-franchised" repair and said they could not help me.

I was seeking a common sense resolution to the problem, namely for Ford to repair the (common) fault, as they would have done had they given me the correct information in the first place, and the cost (£198) to Ford's warranty scheme would have been the same, i.e. cost neutral plus a satisfied customer. However, what they have is a customer who is out of pocket, unhappy with the service and lost all credibility in the Ford brand.

I feel that in part due to the Ford's global financial problems there is a conspiracy against it's customers and that staff on the customer helpline are panning customers off by telling them the fault is not covered by warranty, when they and even the service receptionist at the franchised dealer knows that the knocking noise from the rear suspension of a Mondeo means the bushes need replaced and to ask me if I could "leave the car for 24 hours to allow the glue to set" and not to worry about the cost as it usually a warranty item.

I really feel my rights have been violated and wonder what if any course of action is left open to me?

I have ordered a new vehicle, not surprisingly it's not a Ford!!

Yours sincerely

Kevin Lynch

Warranty Woes - Armitage Shanks {p}
Telephone calls to Ford will have been recorded "For your prtection and for training purposes" - make a Freedom of Information Act request for access to the recordings. That said, you are replacing the car and you are talking about less then £200 - can you be bothered to chase it? I would, as a matter of principle, and because I have plenty of spare time!
Warranty Woes - cheddar
With regard to the Ford Customer Relations dept:

I have had excellent service from Ford Customer Relations in Glasgow, really above and beyond the call of duty, they in effect fully covered under warranty a problem that they could have washed their hands of, the car was nearly four years old and had done over 100,000 miles, I was also given a brand new C-Max to use while my car was at the dealer.

It seems to me that although the Ford Customer Relations rep was wrong in your case (and untypical IME) if you had used the Ford dealer network to diagnose the fault - without even asking them to effect a repair - the dealer would have recognised that the fault was a warranty repair and all would have been well with no cost to you.

All you can do now is write a pleasant letter to Ford Customer Relations explaing your predicament and ask for some goodwill in respect of the repair effected by the dealer.


With regard to the rear subframe bushes on MkIII Mondeos:

These typically need doing at around four years old / 100,000 miles, they have been known to fail earlier and to my knowledge will be covered under warranty if within or just over the 3 year / 60,000 mile warranty period, Ford are perhaps more likely to entertain post warranty claims if the car has Ford service history.

Until a few months ago the Ford solution was a new subframe at a cost of around £350 fitted hence when mine needed doing last January at IIRC almost exactly 100,000 miles I purchased Powerflex polyurethane bushes at a cost of around £70, fitted them myself, not a bad job, and had the car laser aligned for another £35 afterwards. However Ford now do replacement bushes that a dealer will fit for around £150.


With regard to your decision not to choose another Ford, well you pays your money ..... though I dont reckon you will get much better customer service from a car manufacturer these days.
Warranty Woes - Red Baron
Earlier in the year my Mondeo went for it first MOT at which point I was informed by the (Ford) Dealer in Lutterworth that the rear bushes were 'going'. I was aware of the issue, but had not noticed any knocking on the car itself. May of course simply have been a matter of time before I would notice.

The dealer was most forthcoming to get them replaced under warranty (as they were to fix the rusty door bottoms, and as they were to give me a new alloy because one of them had aesthetically displeasingly lifting coating).

If you don't ask you don't get. Yes, it is irritating to have to get these things fixed on an only three year old car, but Ford have here clearly tried to make the best of the situation. No complaints in that respect.
Warranty Woes - Honestjohn
"The fact that I then exercised my rights as a consumer to use a non franchised dealer to effect the repair is neither here nor there."

What rights are these?

www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/buying-selling/sale-suppl...l

Your complaint is about being misled as to whether or not the bushes were covered by the final year Ford dealer warranty. That is a slightly grey area anyway because it it not manufacturer warranty.

HJ
Warranty Woes - Collos25
Ford will say you should have brought the car to us to look at in the first place followed by the statement "if you had your car would have been repaired for free ,as it was you chose to....."
Warranty Woes - M.M
I think HJ that Kevin is fererring to the 2003 OFT investigation that led to the relaxation of the previous "100% dealer servicing or your warranty is invalid" attitude.

As I understand it you are able to have non-dealer servicing and consumable repairs (as long as OE parts/fluids are used and you keep receipts) however.... if any work that would have been carried out under warranty/goodwill is not done by the dealer then that part is excluded from further warranty.

To be honest that seems fair enough. Why should a maker/dealer cover out work by others.

That is where Kevin's problem has fallen to this grey area because he went to the cheap guy first.

I know you were apparently misled by the call centre Kevin but frankly you should never ever trust a call centre answer on major issues. Had you walked (quietly) into the local dealers they would have looked at the car, done the work properly under warranty and everyone would be happy.

I have just had exactly the same issue with a Honda where I refused to do a repair on a car because I was so sure it would be done FOC under goodwill and where I was sure once fiddled with by others Honda would make it chargeable. The owner was quite akward with me saying Honda were further away, would be more expensive if it wasn't covered by them etc etc.

Of course they were far more happy when Honda readily took the car in and did this £300 repair for nothing!

I know the Ford call centre are mostly to blame in your mind but your independent guy showed a lack of understanding of the issues surrounding this specific commont fault... and the way the warranty/goodwill system works.

And something you fail to mention. This chap you have used for 17yrs has carried out a chargeable repair to your car and the fault is still there. What action will you be taking against him?
Warranty Woes - Aprilia
I think part of the problem is that the Ford warranty is backed by the manufacturer for year 1 only. I know the guys at the local Ford dealer and they've told me Years 2 & 3 are backed by the UK dealer network - its kind of an insurance policy and has exclusions and conditions that the dealers are free to impose. This is why the dealer can deny a repair in years 2 and 3 if the car has been worked on outside the dealer network (they don't have to follow the EU Block Exemption legislation). I think the corrosion warranty is manufacturer backed and as a goodwill measure they fixed some cars out of warranty - but this is Ford of Europe, not the UK dealer network, who pay the bill.
Warranty Woes - cheddar
Yes, it is true to say that the full dealer history can be enforced in years 2 & 3 because it is a dealer backed warranty however if it is a genuine fault the dealer will still claim off Ford based on a menu price for the repair. Furthermore most Ford main dealers are Ford owned so Ford would Europe pay either way.

The problem is that the OP should have gone to his dealer in the first instance, also not only has he a case against the indy as indicated above the indy should have asked whether the car was within warranty before he commenced any work and, because it was, he should have advised that it be taken to a Ford dealer in the first instance. The indy was perhaps more erroneous than the Ford Cust Rel rep.
Warranty Woes - Bill Payer
I think that if you read through K.Lynch's 2 posts in this forum it's not difficult to see what's gone wrong here. He seems to get off on talking to people in a loud voice, and quoting imaginary consumer law at them.
Warranty Woes - Enoughalready
I think that if you read through K.Lynch's 2 posts in
this forum it's not difficult to see what's gone wrong here.
He seems to get off on talking to people in
a loud voice, and quoting imaginary consumer law at them.


Bit of an unnecessary statement.
Warranty Woes - Altea Ego
The two fact here are:

1/ His trusted garage of 17 years standing did not fix it poprerly
2/ He wants ford to fix the work his garage did.

They wont of course, the moment his independant garage got involved in fixing things covered under warranty the warranty goes out the window. Ford wont, and cant be expected, to fix things other people mucked up.
------------------------------
TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
Warranty Woes - Enoughalready
There is the third fact that allegedly Ford told him it wasn't under warranty when in fact it was. This being his main gripe and if this was a £2000 engine bill I too would be annoyed and pursue. However, it was £200 and if he's ordered a new car then finances can't be tight enough for him to stress out over his last vehicle.
He's made a stance by ensuring his next vehicle ( & possibly future vehicles) won't be Ford and my advice would be to move on and chill.
Warranty Woes - cheddar
There is the third fact that allegedly Ford told him it
wasn't under warranty when in fact it was. >>


Depends how it was communicated, if he said along the lines of "I have taken my Mondeo to Under the Arches Autos and they say it might be covered by warranty" it might be interpreted by the Cust Rel rep as TVM says, Ford being expected to fix things other people mucked up.

He should have gone to the dealer in the first instance.
Warranty Woes - Quinny100
Ford publish a set of warranty terms and conditions, but they don't always stick to them. I've had items replaced that are allegedly aren't covered in the second and third years by various dealers - there is some flexibility there. If you want to make a warranty claim the first course of action is to have the car looked at by a dealer. If the dealer says no, then you contact customer services or take is somewhere else to get it done cheaper.

Replacing 2 of the 4 bushes is a bodge anyway - these bushes are what attach the rear suspension and wheels to the car, and any difference in the amount of movement of the bushes could result in potentially dangerous handling. Anyone mechanically minded would be able to discern that the bushes should be replaced as a set just by looking at them, and from the sounds of it your mechanic can't tell a worn bush from a good one if the banging continued after replacing 2 of them.

Warranty Woes - K. Lynch
I agree - I have taken my chill phill - it just took a day to take effect!!
Warranty Woes - K. Lynch
Dear Enoughalready,

I didn't use the loud voice approach with this as it doesn't work, and I didn't quote imaginary consumer law, I quoted from my Ford owners handbook, which says work can be carried out by non franchised organisations so long as they use Ford parts and most importantly Ford proceedures.
Warranty Woes - Enoughalready
err. twasn't me that said you did!
Warranty Woes - K. Lynch
Thanks for this, I thought it was a manufactures warranty for the full 3 years, but this my explain some of the difficulties.
Warranty Woes - K. Lynch
Thanks, for your comments. Yes I should have taken it to a main dealer first, but thats why I phoned the call centre to see if there was any financial advantage in doing so.

Regarding my local mechanic, he has been great offering to fix it FOC no questions - execpt what glue to use!!
Warranty Woes - K. Lynch
Unfortunately they Customer Relations Centre has recently been moved from Glasgow, so that my account for a change in service.
Warranty Woes - K. Lynch
Unfortunately the calls are not recorded or at least that's what they told me.
Warranty Woes - bell boy
you dont glue the bushes in
try another mechanic

kevin lynch has got the pinch for what should have been an easy do of a job in a cinch
he got the monk on a piece of junk and is now off to pastures new (without the glue)
is it a honda is it a saab we await his tongue with baited barb.

good cars them there mondeos next time consider calling into your franchised dealer and getting a word of mouth answer to your problems,my local dealer would bend over backwards to accomodate you and they are very regy vardinal
Warranty Woes - cheddar
you dont glue the bushes in
try another mechanic


You do glue them in, as I said until recently the Ford solution was a new subframe at a cost of around £350 fitted however Ford now do replacement bushes that a dealer will fit for around £150. These are bonded in rubber bushes so the car is required for 24 hours so the glue can go off.

The alternative are Powerflex polyurethane bushes which push through the subfame had have a lip that keeps them in place, perhaps better than the Ford ones longer term.
Warranty Woes - Shaz {p}
Do the Powerflex ones ruin the ride at all/ improve handling (being stiffer)?
Warranty Woes - cheddar
They are claimed to improve in both respects being both stiffer and efficient at damping out resonances, frankly I have noticed little difference, they should last longer though.
Warranty Woes - bell boy
sorry cheddar i bow to your knowledge but i can buy the subframe all in for £150 from sel imperial so i would just fit that anyway. :-)
Warranty Woes - barchettaman
Oldman, I hope your poetic input on this thread isn´t the last we´ll see of your creative side. Inspired stuff.
Warranty Woes - cheddar
sorry cheddar i bow to your knowledge but i can buy
the subframe all in for £150 from sel imperial so i
would just fit that anyway. :-)


If you can buy the subframe for £150 you can buy Ford bushes for about £40 or Powerflex for about £70. Fitting the subframe is a much bigger job tho, a lot has to be removed to get it out, the bushes just require the wheels off.
Warranty Woes - Honestjohn
Aprilia answered this early in the thread with a sensible interpretation of warranty rules.

HJ

Warranty Woes - kithmo

>>the bushes just require
the wheels off.


Not even that, I did mine just lying under the car.

In the past, Fords used to say 40,000 miles or 4 years for any rubber items such as bushes and belts and they are now sometimes falling foul of this with their 60,000 mile warranty. Mine were 4 years old (and about 48,000miles IIRC) when replaced with Powerflex ones but only one of them had actually split, I had to hack the other 3 out.
Warranty Woes - Micky
With the benefit of hindsight - which is always 20/20 - you should have taken the car to a Frod Dealer and asked them to diagnose the noise without mentioning the involvement of an independent.

Frod used to remove the subframe, I think they now have a fitting kit. All a bit academic anyway if you are selling the Mondy. I've driven Frods for years ... well, someone has to. But I usually try and avoid Frod dealers, as I would most main dealers. The Mk2 Mondeo eats bushes as well. Powerflex to the rescue.
Warranty Woes - audiaudi
As I said in another thread, I regret buying my modest C Class 320 Merc.

However, their warranty is bullet proof!! The bushes on the front suspension are one of the many weak links on the car - MB replaced those and re-aligned the wheels, all under warranty.

As I see it - the Merc is covered for 3 years unlimited mileage under normal driving conditons and the bushes to go within the first few k's is not on!!

The brake pads are not covered, nor are the discs or wiper blades if it is wear and tear, But everything else is.
Warranty Woes - madux
What worries me is that this was his first MOT. New bushes needed already? Rusty doors?
Warranty Woes - bell boy
under 60,000 miles on british roads, thats good going for a good ride and firm to supple i would say,unless anyone knows different?
Ford warranty clarification. - cheddar
Further to various comments in the "Warranty woes" thread:

(Moved to Warranty Woes because it does not justify a separate thread. HJ.)

Ford say:

"
Every new Ford car sold is protected by 12 months' unlimited mileage manufacturer's warranty and a year's Ford Assistance as standard, plus the option of extending this warranty to a 3-year/60,000 miles Ford Protect Classic Plan at no extra cost.

Scheduled servicing can be carried out by any repairer during the 3 year Classic 60,000 mile Plan though must be carried out by an Authourised Ford Repairer on Premium Plans.

Premium Plans cover the cost of scheduled servicing.

"

Ford Assist (breakdown cover) applies to the first year only, there are no other T&Cs that differentiate year 1 from years 2 & 3, the warranty is fully transferable at any time during the 3 year period.
Ford warranty clarification. - cheddar
(Moved to Warranty Woes because it does not justify a separate
thread. HJ.)


Fair enough.

However there has seemed to be a general misconception in various threads over a period of time that in years 2 & 3 various exclusions and conditions apply, I wrongly though that FSH was one such condition. I was interested in establishing that facts for my own reference and also considered it was worth posting here as a general clarification for anyone that is interested.
Ford warranty clarification. - Honestjohn
But Aprilia's point still applies. There are exclusions to the dealer part of the warranty. And if anyone else has worked on the car during the warranty period, the franchised dealer can contend that it was that non franchised garage's non manufacturer standard workmanship that led to the problem. That's why it's a grey area.

In the case of K. Lynch's rear subframe bushes, and please correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding is that what can happen is the bushes wear away, then metal to metal contact enlarges the attachment points to the subframe. The original fix was a new subframe. But over the last year or two Ford has come up with a fix that repairs the subframe with a special tool and uses a special glue to fit the new bushes. So if someone else had simply fitted new bushes without using the special tool and special glue, that could have led to further damage which a Ford dealer would contend was not its responsibility.

HJ
Ford warranty clarification. - cheddar
There are exclusions to the dealer part of the warranty. >>


No, there are no exclusions to the dealer part of the warranty as per my last but one post.


>>And if anyone else has worked on the car during the warranty period ............>>

Repairs yes, as with any warranty. Though not service related items performed to spec.

what can happen is the bushes wear away, then metal to metal contact
enlarges the attachment points to the subframe.


They would have to be clonking to 1000's of miles to damage the subframe.


Until a few months ago the Ford solution was a new subframe at a cost of around £350 fitted However Ford now do replacement bushes that a dealer will fit for around £150, these are bonded in unlike the alternativer Powerflex poly bushes.
Ford warranty clarification. - cheddar
To clarify, if the subframe itself is damaged (unlikely) it needs replacing and cannot be repaired, the 'special glue' simply retains the new bushes in place of the old ones.
Ford warranty clarification. - Honestjohn
Correction accepted about the subframe and many thanks for that. However, from www.ford.co.uk :-

The Warranty excludes the protection of the following parts:

Classic/Premium Plans
Normal wear and tear parts: ancillary drive belts, batteries, brake friction material, bulbs, clutch facings, exhaust pipes and silencers (although catalytic converters are covered), fuses, lamps, shock absorbers and MacPherson struts, tyres and wiper blades and checks and adjustments.

Trim and bodywork: interior trims, glass (although heating elements are covered), seat covers and pads, bumpers, mouldings, paint, sheet metal, water ingress, weather strip and body seals, aerials and wheels.

Additional Classic Plan exclusions
Standard service parts: air cleaners, pollen/odour filters (where applicable), fuel filters, oil filters and gaskets, spark plugs, most fluids and engine oils.

HJ

Ford warranty clarification. - cheddar
The Warranty excludes the protection of the following parts....................


Surely typical wear and tear warranty exclusions, for instance Toyota say:

"3 years or 60,000 miles whichever comes first, covering your car against the unlikely event of a mechanical fault attributable to a manufacturing defect - includes full RAC recovery service for the first 12 months."

"a mechanical fault attributable to a manufacturing defect" rules out ANY wear and tear.


The Ford Premium Plan includes service items (over the Classic Plan) because the servicing costa are included in the Premium Plan.
Ford warranty clarification. - Aprilia
>>
>> The Warranty excludes the protection of the following parts....................
>>
Surely typical wear and tear warranty exclusions, for instance Toyota say:


I disagree. The Ford 2 & 3 warranty excludes parts that would be covered under the typical manufacturer-backed warranty. Under a typical 3 year/60k manufacturer warranty I would expect things like shock absorbers, clutches, interior trim to be covered. Obviously if there is evidence of misuse then you would have an argument on your hands, but I have certainly known shocks and clutches replaced under warranty. A manufacturing defect will often cause a part to wear out 'prematurely', as will a design defect. In fact a rear subframe bush could be said to be a 'wear and tear item', but clearly it should last a reasonable length of time/mileage and certainly not wear out at less than 3 years/60k mi.
Ford warranty clarification. - cheddar
I guess the terms of the warranty allow discression whether specific items are mentioned or Toyota's catch all. However if all of the above T&C's etc are correct Ford would replace a clutch after, say 11 months no quibble though Toyota could quibble under the "manufacturing defect" wear & tear caveat

Re the bushes, I am aware that 3 to 4 years or 100k is typical though some have failed earlier I have heard of Ford paying 75% of the cost on a three year old car at around 80,000 miles that had dealer history.
Ford warranty clarification. - Aprilia
>>And if anyone else has worked on the car during the
warranty period ............>>
Repairs yes, as with any warranty.


Under EU Block Exemption regs applied to manufacturer warranties I believe that repairs can be carried out during the warranty period by any repairer provided that OE parts are used. Obviously the manufacturer is not obliged to refund the cost.
In the Ford dealer warranty plan you are obliged to use a Ford repairer otherwise the warranty becomes void.

In the case of this vehicle I suspect that the problem is not that the repair has been done badly, but that the old bush has split and damaged the subframe slightly. Once the bush splits and the centre part can move then the cup is soon damaged. Its probably new subframe time. I believe they are about £185 plus fitting.

Its astonishing that Ford still can't make bushes that don't fail at low mileage. They have a history of this going back 30+ years. More recently they had problems with Transit front bushes failing after about a year.
Ford warranty clarification. - cheddar
Under EU Block Exemption regs applied to manufacturer warranties I believe that repairs can be carried out during the warranty period by any repairer provided that OE parts are used. Obviously the manufacturer is not obliged to refund the cost. In the Ford dealer warranty plan you are obliged to use a Ford repairer otherwise the warranty becomes void.


Hi Aprilia, I dont believe any manufacture would warrant a repair carried out by a non authourised repairer during the warranty period - scheduled servicing yes, IF genuine parts are used and IF it is carried out on time and to spec - though surely not repairs.



To quote MB because it was easy to find:

"
The repair work must be carried out by an Authorised Mercedes-Benz Repairer and all parts must be parts supplied by Mercedes-Benz. We will then reimburse the Authorised Repairer directly.
"

Ford warranty clarification. - Aprilia
Hi Aprilia, I dont believe any manufacture would warrant a repair
carried out by a non authourised repairer during the warranty period


I didn't say that the manufacturer would warrant the repair - clearly not. But under EU Block Exemption they cannot void the warranty of a vehicle system or sub-system because you've had a repair done outside of their network.

For example, if you had a faulty outer CV joint replaced by a non-authorised repairer then the manufacturer would not warrant that joint against future defects. They should however continue to cover the hub, driveshaft and inner CV joint etc.
Some dealers and manufacturers have in the past tried to void the whole warranty on the basis that one item had been touched by a non-authorised repairer.
Ford warranty clarification. - cheddar
I didn't say that the manufacturer would warrant the repair -
clearly not. But under EU Block Exemption they cannot void
the warranty of a vehicle system or sub-system because you've had
a repair done outside of their network.


This is a really grey area, the non authorised repairer could have made errors in disassembly / reassembly.

Ford warranty clarification. - Aprilia
It would be up to the manufacturers agent to demonstrate that this was the case.

To take a common example; you have new pads and discs fitted by Kwik-Fit during your car's 3-year warranty period. If your car subsequently has, say, an ABS system failure then the this should still be covered under warranty. If the manufacturer were to decline a warranty claim on the basis that you'd had discs/pads fitted by a non-authorised repairer than they would have to prove that this work had led to the defect.
Ford warranty clarification. - cheddar
If the manufacturer
were to decline a warranty claim on the basis that you'd
had discs/pads fitted by a non-authorised repairer than they would have
to prove that this work had led to the defect.

>>

That would be perfectly reasonable however if in practice it required the owner to prove that the Kwik Fit work HAD NOT led to the defect it would not be so simple.
Warranty Woes - K. Lynch
Just to let any interested parties know, my car has been repaired under warranty by a Ford main dealer. They just repaired it no questions asked if it had been worked no previously, so there is some justice in the world after all!!
Warranty Woes - cheddar
Good news, perhaps no less that I would have expected, on the otherhand perhaps you can consider yourself thankful because the Ford warranty has picked up the cost of making good your local non franchised mechanic mistakes.
 

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