Further to my dilemma about what estate car to get, it occured to me that the Espace fits the bill quite well in terms of space and seems quite economical.
My question is has anyone here owned one of these and what are they like for reliability, parts costs and to drive? Im only interested in the MK1 Espace ( 1985-90 ) as this falls into my budget.
My family have suggested that I get a 7-seater MPV now as an estate doesnt quite have a loadspace as practical as an MPV.
Im also still looking at the Mitsubishi Space Wagon and also the Toyota Space Cruiser ( a friend of mine had one of these so I know about these ) and the Nissan Prairie.
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a renault on this age is too old your chequebook will never be shut ,please dont go there
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Oldman's right - Renaults aren't built to last. They're not very well screwed together in the first place - imagine an espace after 15 years of family use!! If they're fuel-injected they'll even have a dreaded ECU too!!!
Buy a petrol Volvo 740 or 240. Much better build quality, option of carb or EFi (EFi might be a better bet for economy and power). Make sure it's been serviced and whack a new cambelt on. Will last twice as long as a Renault, and the autoboxes aren't off limits either. Safest old car to have a crash in as well, in case you were planning to have one...plenty on eBay for peanuts too.
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I didnt know they did a 6-seater Volvo? I know they did child seats in the boot, but not really suitable for an elderly person or my brother-in-law who is 6ft!
I would like a 240 as I knew a guy with one and it was indeed built like a tank, but it cant take enough people in any kind of comfort. Theres no point me buying this car if it doesnt meet all my needs as it would defeat the object of buying it.
I accept what is said about the Renault, although so far nobody has actually said what goes wrong with it apart from clutches and heater matrix which is a little frustrating - there seems to be plenty of opinion but very few facts about the car which hasnt really helped in the decision. I cant judge it on other Renaults, least because it wasnt even built by them. I can imagine the outcry if I said that the Mondeo was crap because the Ka is...
Most estates and MPVs suffer in terms of interior trim, but thats not a reason not to buy a car, its a cosmetic issue. I said on my previous thread that I would conceed to ECU's as there seems little option. Are ECUs only on Fi cars? I seem to recall my mums BX which was carb, had a micro chip replaced, sure it was the ECU ( i was only about 13 at the time mind you so memory not that clear on that )
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buy the renault its a cracker we have 22 of them at home you really cant go wrong, i implore you buy the renault
hows that?
we are in 2007 in 2 months how can you consider a renault of all things that in your own book is going to be 17 years young. so soon?
i dispair sometimes
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Well you still havent said what goes wrong with them, so maybe im the one in despair because that was my original question and only one solitary person actually answered that question.
For the most part, all I have is that some dont like old cars and some dont like Renaults but are unable to back-up why a MK1 Espace is a bad idea from either a driving or reliability aspect...
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Stu - you asked and someone told you. It costs over a grand for a body panel. That should be reason enough surely? Somone hitting you in a carpark and the car's a write off.
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This can happen with any old car, so its irrelevant in choosing one car over the other.
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Early Espaces were very good, they were of an era where the engineering was relatively simple and few gadgets. You want a nice 2.0 TXE with a manual 'box. Avoid automatics. With early models you could have a bit of fun identifying from which other Renaults the parts came from. A lot of Renault 18 was in there.
You will struggle to find a good one as they are old cars now.
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Well i did think there were simpler back then - far better than modern Renaults, hence I wanted to look into them.
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I have huge experience of the '91 on model if it helps at all. These Espaces have a wonderful space for family use and are quite comfortable but....
They are the least reliable of all the cars I have ever looked after. Parts can be BMW/Mercedes prices and they fall apart over the years due to minimal maintenance and family abuse.
The Mk.1 models I do rarely see look fit for scrapping. Body panels and trim parts will be a pig to source now. Of all the cars you have mentioned this is the most likely to be an utter disaster.
Of course others may say different????
David
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Thanks, but I know all about the Mk2 and that they are rubbish, but I was hoping that the MK1 was different.
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Budget for a good Mark 1 Espace should be about £300 then. If you really want a guaranteed Espace moneypit and fading black paint on fiberglass is your thing, I know a forecourt where there is a £500 Espace Quadra gradually settling on its tyres. Seriously, I am not sure what the MPV advantage is over a conventional estate car. If you want reliability, look for an old Volvo, Mercedes or Peugeot estate with the optional seats in a third row.
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Im sorry mate, but Ive owned Peugeots and ive found them to be utter rubbish, as have customers of mine. The only ones worth buying are the old ones when they bothered to build them properly.
I need a car now that can seat 6 adults and im afraid that the estate cars cannot seat adults in their rear most seats or if they can, access is only for the able bodied and young.
There is always a gem out there somewhere - I know a good Espace is rare, but ive seen the odd minter around over the last few years and given how many there were made, I reckon theres still some hope of spotting another.
Im still going to look at a Merc, but Im just not sure it will meet all the needs spacewise.
On that note, how about the VW Transporter? They did 6-seater versions of that didnt they?
What are they like? Any good? That one just occured to me.
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Design-wise, the first-generation Citroen Synergie/Peugeot 806/Fiat Ulysees took much of their inspiration from the original Espace. As the models ran longer, maybe one of these would fit the bill?
Also, because they share their parts with each makers small van (AFAIK), spares and panels shouldn't be so much of a problem to source.
There was an eight-seat VW Transporter, or Caravelle, listed in the CBCB. Afraid I know nothing more about them!
- Gromit
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....Citroen Synergie/Peugeot 806/Fiat Ulysees....
I fear the OP might reject on the basis of perceived electrical fragility.
Certainly an earlier suggestion of the highly-rated Xantia TD was rejected for that reason.
Although quite why those fears don´t apply to a Mark 1 Espace is beyond me!
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OK so you know the Mk.II Espace is "Rubbish"..... well imagine the same "Rubbish" a few years older with even harder spares availability and you have the Mk.1.
You and your customers may have owned Peugeots that were utter rubbish but the older ones in your price range are pretty good cars. I have good experience of many 106, 306, 405 & 406 models. The TD engines are brilliant.
The Synergie/806/Ulysses have been a car I rather like but a current terrible experience with a 1997 Ulysses TD is putting me right off them. Some parts that are dealer only are eye watering for cost. Like a turbo inlet hose at £116 or gearchange cables for £113.
This one has cost £884 in service/repair costs over the past 11mths/15K. Bad luck maybe but it puts you off.
David
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Can you tell me what specifically goes wrong with the MK1 aside from normal wear and tear, you dont seem to say?
Finding spares isnt all that hard if your willing to look hard enough and ring enough people.
Im not claiming that running an older car is as easy as a newer one - its not - but I have owned many of the rarer 1980's cars over the years and not yet had a car I couldnt find a part for.
Granted, body panels can be difficult, but that goes with the territory. The rest is about owners clubs, specialists and scrap yards - fair enough if you dont like that kinda thing, but I rather enjoy the challenge.
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...Finding spares isnt all that hard if your willing to look hard enough and ring enough people.
....Granted, body panels can be difficult, but that goes with the territory.
Finding spares isn´t hard, if you don´t mind it being time-consuming, difficult and hard ;-)
Sorry to be Mr Negative on this thread Stu. I just think a Mk1 espace is probably not a good idea.
But good luck finding the minter out there....if it exists, I´m sure you will!
Cheers,
barchettaman
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Perceived? In all the years ive worked in the motor trade, ive not come across a Citroen Synergie/Peugeot 806/Fiat Ulysees that wasnt riddled with issues - the reconditioning costs just to get the cars approved for the warranties was more than enough to put me off these cars.
As for the Xantia - nice car in many ways although I think the clutch is overly heavy and the gearshift horrible and yes i have driven plenty of them. When you buy a car on a budget, first rule is not to buy a complicated car and im sorry, but the suspension and build quality of Xantias has always put me off buying them ( My dad owned Citroens for years and while his XM's were great, he had a couple of Xantias which never went far without issues or big bills. ).
To quote HJ:
"Hydraulic pumps can still go. ABS computers fail. Parts of more complex VSX and Activa suspension can stick. TD auto a bit high geared for town work (lingers in 2nd or 3rd). Clutch cable connector prone to breaking at the pedal end and, it's a long, tedious and expensive job to put right. Hatchbacks of Xantia estates can leak through wiper spindle seal. Flood water ingress to the gearbox is a problem, causing the box to seize. Faulty ABS sensors can lead to short front brake disc life. Cat heat shield can trap moisture which can lead to rust on a car driven short distances from cold. Spate of conrod failures on 1997 -1998 R and S reg 1.9 XUTD diesels: too many to attribute merely to running with low oil levels. Seems only to affect cars built from April 1997 with DHY (not DHX) serial number engines. Non availability of some obscure parts, such as bottom radiator hoses for 2.1TD. On HDIs, rubber cushioned timing belt pulley needs replacing at same time as timing belt (60k - 70k miles) otherwise can separate. 17th from bottom for reliabilty in Auto Express 2002 reader survey of 100 models. On very early Xantias, front suspension strut tops can pop through the top mountings. "
Sorry but this doesnt read like a consistantly reliable car! This is why I reject the Xantia. Im used to japanese reliability and this isnt even on the same planet.
Im hoping to hear from people who have actually owned a MK1 Espace at any time.
If someone who has tells me they were rubbish for this reason and that, then that ticks it off my list, but not because someone just doesnt like old cars or has a fancination with unreliable Citroens, which I dont.
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Have a look at carsurvey.org. Only a handful of older Espaces on there but owners seem generally happy. Watch out for expensive clutch changes and leaking heater matrixes - either of which on an older Espace is enough cost to scrap it.
If you're used to Japanese reliability, then almost any other make of car will be second.
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Many thanks I shall have a look. It just occured to me that Parkers website has owners reviews aswell which may be worth a look.
I am rather afraid of buying non-japanese, hence I ask alot of questions as the sense of security with a proper japanese car that every time you turn the key it WILL start, is not something anyone wants to loose.
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isnt the mk1 espace the one built by miata or someone ? panels hand made fiberglass and cost thousands ?
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Matra built the original and subsequent Espaces IIRC.
I think Miata is another name for a Mark 1 Mazda MX-5.
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Made by Matra. I should think that if the panels cost thousands, they would never have made the car as it wouldnt be economically viable given how many they sold.
Whether you could find MK1 body panels in the first place is the bigger question!
I imagine if one buys a MK1, you then locate as many replacement panels from a breakers yard as possible.
Most likely to find panels in France I imagine.
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VW Transporter?
When I suggested that in your last thread you didnt want to know.
Early T4 can be had for quite small money. look on autotrader van section. Check insurance costs because some companies insist on commercial insurance.
ex-AA vans come with 6 seats. If you get one without its easy to pick up a 3 seat set for the rear because many people take them out to put captains seats in. not sure if you can fit three proper seat belts in the back though or have the middle one as a lap belt
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Caravelle based I believe on the Transporter of the 80's, not the rounded later models that the AA used.
cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-VW-T25-T3-CARAVELLE-BUS-COMBI-...m
This is the model I mean. i saw one in a group test with MPVs in one of my old Whatcar? mags.
They did a 6-seater version. Not too many around mind you.
Having read up about it, the Toyota Space Cruiser is looking most likely as they seem to get great write-ups from owners about reliability and they have 8 seats.
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Re running and maintaining early espaces we had a mk2 turbo diesel for many years that had well over 150,000 miles on the clock when we swapped it for a 4x4.
The mk2 were just the mk i with a slightly more aero dynamic body.
My experiance with this car over 4 years and 70,000 miles were as follows.
Buy the diesel version for economy and reliability the engine is basically a van engine and looked after it will outlast the car, one locally to me has 450,000 on the clock as it used as an airport taxi.
The only major mechanical problem we had was the clutch which went at 125,000 miles cost to repair £450 at local renault dealer belive it or not they are the cheapest and quickest to do the work.
Apart from that it only cost service items it had no other major costs.
Find a smaller renault dealer to service the car they know what they are doing and in my experiance are cheaper than independants as they spend hours trying to work out how to work on the thing.A friend of mine has found out the hard way with his mk3 espace that renault dealers know what they are doing.
Trim wise they are old but there are many renault breakers now that have trim from scrapped espaces for sale.
Finally re running costs I have a golf mk4 which has cost me an arm and a leg to service and repair recently our older espace was cheaper to run than the so called wondercar golf so much for german reliability.
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I agree with the consensus that virtually anything will be better thank Mk1 Espace.
Mid 90s import Toyota Estimas/Lucidas are cheap (plenty on autotrader sub 2 grand) and should be generally reliable but I don't know much about the parts costs on these things. Seem to be a lot on the road recently.
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At this age, condition and service history is more important than reputation. Any car will give some problems at old age. If you can find an old Espace that has been looked after, then you will do ok. There are loads of these old buses still knocking around in France, they can't be that bad. As with any car, as they get older you are better off with one with fewer gadgets. That's why I recommended the TXE model as a 2.0 manual.
In a few years time, people will probably pay daft money for a nice MK1 Espace. Looking at some of the rubbish people pay good money for under the misused 'Classic' banner, then this is likely to happen.
I don't remember the early Espaces being badly built, certainly no worse than the norm at that time (early 1980's)
In fact I quite fancy one myself, to add to my collection of old french cars...
(As an aside, I read somewhere that Renault very nearly didn't bring the Espace to the UK. They thought that it wouldn't sell very well. Rest is history.)
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I had a Mark 1 new (as a company car) in 1988 and it did 125,000 miles in 5 years with no major problerms and very few minor ones. Never used a drop of oil. A head gasket at over 100,000 was forgivable.
Get one for under £1,000 and you could be lucky and get some mileage out of it - if it goes badly wrong and costs more to repair than it's worth, dispose of it without losing a fortune.
Good luck and ignore the prejudice. Any car at this age is a gamble, and an Espace is no worse than others.
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What about the nissan prarie?
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In the nineties a friend of mine ran a G plated Espace 2.0 TXE and I will admit to being surprised by it. Although one of the Mk I facelift jobbies (not sure if that means it's a Mk II or not) it looked much less gawky than the first models thanks to the mildly revised front end. It also drove well and whilst no sports car was pretty nimble and nippy. The rotating "Captain's chairs" were great, and I remember many a summer's day out when we'd end up taking lunch all sat round a central "table"; the centre seat in row two folded flat with the left and right chairs for row two removed and left at home. "Diners" were then sat in seats 1,2, 6, and 7.
His was well looked after when he purchased it, and continued to be so during his ownership, and it never once went wrong or required other than routine servicing; having hesitated at the outset thanks to reputation, the Espace paid him back in spades. Of course, the same Espace would now be 18 years old, not the 6 or 7 that it was back then.
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Avant - Fair point but remember your car was owned from new and did the ideal build up of mileage over a shortish period. Imagine your old car some 13yrs after you sold it having another 100,000+ on the clock and another 6 owners. Bear in mind due to its falling value most of the last few years will have been with skimped maintenance.
stunorthants doesn't want to spend £1000 and then chuck at the first big bill. As far as I recall he wants a vehicle that will do 15,000 a year, be reliable and economical, carry 6 adults plus an electric scooter.... and last him another 6yrs.
That is why we are all scratching around to think of what will fit that bill... only another 98 vehicles left to tick off in his What Car before we get there.
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Well ive given up on the economy idea and settled for around a 35mpg minimum.
I dont need a car that can carry the adults AND the scooter, just one that can easily do both.
So far, within that criteria, the Toyota SpaceCruiser is the only one that comes close, the only 'but' with them is finding one that isnt on its last legs. It has the space and reading owners reports and those of people I know who owned them, they are stupifyingly reliable, even when old and fairly comfortable, if not fast.
It is possible to find cars that have been looked after for most of their lives. I have managed to buy 15 old cars in the last 8 years which had complete service records, some of them from main dealers, all for under £1000, so I know its possible to find such cars.
My Mazda has 20 years worth of service history and it cost me 150 quid, so anyone who tells me that ALL old cars are knackered, have poor service records and on their last legs clearly doesnt know much about the old car market because mine runs very sweetly and has a record of every lightbulb and washer ever changed along with atleast 10 years of main dealer history and another 10 years of local garage servicing, with invoices for the lot. Its not the first one Ive foudn liek thsi either.
When I buy a car, I look upon it as a long term project, so I go through the entire car and replace anything that needs replacing. I dont spend only up to the cars value for a very good reason - I have bought used cars for £2-4000 and had just as bigger bills for them than I have for £500 cars, so even if a car needs £1000 worth of work done, its still cheaper than a £4000 car with just as many potential problems.
Big bills on old cars are usually avoidable if you check a car throughly - making sure the body is good, engine and gearbox plus anything the car is known for having issues with and this is all ive had to do to get a good car so far.
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