I had a 30k budget to spend on my latest car but what is the point? Tell me what a Mondeo or Focus doesn't do that a BMW or a Merc does? I had a last series Modeo V6 for 70000 miles and it was better in every respect than its C-class predecessor.
If you are so insecure that you need to see the BMW or whatever badge in front of you then suggest you see a shrink. The differences in quality are perceived.
Me, I saved 14 grand of my own money and I'm quite content. And no I'm not telling but my wife reckons its at least as good as her Audi A6.
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But the BMW 320D is by far the best 2.0 litre diesel. Nothing else comes near it. It's crazy that a 320D Compact costs more than an Jag X-Type 2.0 litre, but if the market will pay for quality, then BMW is going to take its money.
HJ
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Crazy? I'll say!
320D made here, and exported to UK ( i believe) costs about 10.5 k UKP here. Knock of 14% vat, and what have you got?
Tell me WHO is making the money?
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My wife admits that the Mondeo (97 facelift) 2.0LX we had for 2 years was good to drive, but objected to the badge......we tried a new Mondeo a few months go, she claimed not to like it but obviously went in with that intention! Mind you, the best the local dealer could manage for a test drive was 2 miles through a housing estate at 30mph!
Trouble is, we're dyed in the wool Saab drivers and nothing else seems the same....I agree that the Mondeo is good value new, but a 3-year old Saab 9-5 at £7500 is a cracking buy - one third of the new price. And I bet the Saab holds the miles better (mine's done 80k in 3 years & drives like new). My old 9000i (non-turbo) has done 195k in 15 years & still runs sweetly at 35mpg. Not sure whether the Mondeo would last like that.
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I have a 330 BMW as a leased car. It has never spent a day off the road other than for routine services. It is fast, smooth, comfy and looks good (ok some snobbery there). My brother may well buy this when it comes to the end of its lease life, in all honesty I can't think of a better all-round proposition either as a company car (as I am a partner it impacts in the long run on my pocket) or an used private car. If BMW took the badges off on the next service and stuck Trabant ones on instead and then got a 5 year old to coat its body in papier mache as a condition of Warranty,I would still love it. So there.
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Sadly I think I succomb (is that spelt right ?) to badge snobbery.
Some of you may have read what I wrote about the Xantia, its going back next week. Its a very good car. If it were my money, or if I were worried about the economics, then without doubt I would buy one (I know they don't make them anymore).
However, shallow as it may be, I know its a Citroen and for that reason alone I don't enjoy driving it as much as the Audi. Pound for Quality, the Citroen wins all round, but its still a Citroen.
I like to drive BMW, Merc, Audi, etc.. I just enjoy it. And for the amount of money these things cost, I might as well have the thing which gives me pleasure.
I don't hold it up as a way forward for others, but it works for me. The cars I have had most satisfaction from have been the A6, 540, 320, and XJS.
But, as I said, I am a badge snob.
Sorry,
Sad & Shallow of Rio.
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Fred
It doesn't matter whether you pay £30K for a Beemer/Merc, or £8K for a Xantia (as I did) - "careful Clara" will still put dents in the back and in the doors in the supermarket carpark.
Ian
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I don't think that cars are any different to other consumer items. People are prepared to pay for the pleasure in owning and using something that is different from the crowd and above all they are prepared to pay for good design.
The list of 'premium brands' is long, but for example:
Tag Heuer watches
Armani jeans
Hugo Boss suits
Sony televisions
Aga cookers
By the way, I currently drive a Ford but next time I fancy treating myself.
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Simon Ridgers wrote:
> By the way, I currently drive a Ford but next time I fancy
> treating myself.
Buy a new ford, and THEN spend the rest on Armani jeans, sony tv's, and a aga!
:)
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Mark, I've succumbed to the need to put you right (but you did ask).
Fred, How right you are. And how it troubles me. It's ridiculous I know but you can't change the person you are (at least not easily) and I'm paranoid about parking dent in car parks etc. Yes, I should have more important things to worry about but both the Mrs. and myself go to considerable trouble when parking in order to minimise the chance of getting the doors and (shiny metallic paint) bumpers dented ie. put it in a far corner where no-one else is parked, or try not to park next to a scruffy van/car that looks as though the owner would worry about opening their door on to mine.
So few vehicles have sensible bumper/side panel protection. I've put corner and door protective strips on the Yaris and so far it's still as new, but I almost dread the first ding appearing, as surely it will.
It's only because it's new that I'm bothered - my Maestro gets parked any where and it concerns me not what little dents appear. That's the joy of an a 1987 Maestro. I wouldn't like it it get knocked but a tin of spray, some P38 and a couple of hours would see it right again.
Re. the badge business, I honestly can't see the problem with any mainstream make. A Mondeo is as respectable as any. The BMW badge is a subject on it's own which has been covered here before. You shouldn't generalise but round my way it symbolises the sort of thing which I'm not too keen on, in the same way as Merc. coupe's and oversized 4X4's on the school delivery/collection trip also do. The deployment of sunglasses perched on top of the head as well as covering the eyes in the depth of winter also seems to accompany the obligatory blonde curls and the phone glued to the ear during parking manouvres. It would be true to say that I time my journeys wherever possible to avoid this mayhem - as indeed mayhem it often is. No-one will walk any distance fron their vehicle - it has to be within 50 metres max. otherwise excessive use of the legs is incurred, at that does not seem to fit in to the accepted practice on these occasions.
The roads around me have a number of private schools in them and the nature of the drivers, their vehicles, their driving skills, the effect on local road congestion during certain times of the day are all topics for debate. But I don't see too many Skoda's though (or Lada's come to that).
I do still think that despite the acknowledged improvement in Skoda's products, there is still some way to go before they are as accepted as they deserve to be. Maybe they will have to bite the bullet and change the name altogether. Datsun did and suceeded perhaps Skoda will have to too.
Enough said for now.
KB.
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"Maybe they will have to bite the bullet and change the name altogether"
Hmmm, you mean like Windscale became Sellafield, and is still operated by a set of idiots. :-(
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Having owned a number of makes - Ford, Citroen, Renault, etc., I am now sticking to Mercs - why ? Depreciation.
I lost £6,000 in a year on my last Ford.
Merc - four years old - will lose £2,500 a year over the next two, and a better car to boot.
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KB your parking exploits remind me so much of a mate who I worked with for many years. He had a late 70s old yellow cavalier. never even used to lock it but simply abandoned it wherever.
He was happy, contented, always a smile on his face and then.....
Then many years after he bought a new Honda.
Used to shunt around the car park looking for the best and safest place.
Halfway through meetings he would excuse himself and dash down to make sure no-one had bumped it.
His wife came in and told us what a awful experience it was to go shopping to Derby with him. "The silly b***** drives up and down the multi storey car park looking for the safest spot"
In the office we would make him worse, "Tony, just passed your motor, is that a scratch on the front wing?"
"Wished I never bought the bloody thing, I used to leave the cavalier and wouldn't have bothered if it was nicked, never even locked it"
Years after and several Hondas later he still says the best motoring I ever had was the old yellow peril. new cars have just added another worry for me but theres no going back....
alvin
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It seems to take me about six months before I can relax about any new (to me anyway) car. In the period running up to this it's difficult not to see it as a big four wheeled pile of cash (getting smaller). After that you treat it more like a possesion.
There is no doubt that the premium marques make a better car but the question is whether I am able to spend the extra money and still live with myself. The people who buy Mercs, BMW's and Lexii are mostly those who can spend the money and not worry about it. If I was to spend 30 grand on that 5 series I enjoyed so much it might be worth it but it would mean some unneccesary tightening of the belt.
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Badge snobbery be b*@#/~ed, Fred.
I have an old BMW which I am keeping for a while for the sheer pleasure of driving it. I have what might be termed 'pride of ownership'. Nothing to do with snobbery, just a fondness for the car which encourages me to look after it.
If circumstances were to dictate a small car I would almost certainly buy a Skoda Fabia and be equally as proud of it and give it the same TLC. And I would drive it in the same 'occasionally brisk but always courteous' manner.
Referring to your new £16k mystery car, your wife says that "it's at least as good as her Audi A6". So the A6 is *not* the top car that you would have us believe earlier? I'm confused.
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Honda are the biggest engine manufacturer in the world. The Honda Accord was the best selling car in the US for ten years. In all the recent surveys (JD Power, What Car etc), Honda always come in the top three. They are built every bit as well as BMW and Mercedes, and have a proven record on the track in F1 and the BTCC. But why don't people buy them? Because the badge doesn't have the same cache as BMW or Mercedes.
It's only in this country that BMW/Mercedes are treated differently. Look how many Mercedes are used as taxis in Europe. To them, a Mercedes is just a car.
Would you still buy a BMW if it had a Skoda badge on the bonnet?
Andy
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I think you are wrong about the Honda.
I would like to buy an Accord - I think they look great and there's no question about reliability. The trouble is for me however the lack of choice. Unlike Audi and BMW the engine options on the Accord are really limited. Yes the Honda engines are good but e.g. there's no diesel. I would like to see more power e.g a V6 or V8 3.5l. I don't want a boy racer car with bucket seats, so the R type is no good for me. Also there is no estae version. Why don't Honda widen the options on the Accord?
Most people who choose BMW Audi or Mercs don't buy them for the badge they buy them because they are simply better cars.
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conversly (perversly?) I bought a Skoda, and I wouldn't buy it if it had BMW on the front!
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I bought a Audi A4 Quattro because after a test drive it was overwhelmingly desirable making my excellent primera feel like a dustbin , is this snobbery?
I lost so much on the primera over three years that the extra money for the Audi was of no importance. Look at the TT its fabulous desirable if it had a ford badge it would still sell like hot cakes. Ford cheap and cheerful , Audi desirable
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Ford (and Vauxhall) are partly victims of their own success at selling to fleets. When you're paying with your own money, most of us would prefer something that wasn't a repmobile. Also, Fords have so 'cost-engineered' that they don't have the life expectancy of the other makes mentioned here (how many Escorts are there left alive?).
My preferred cars and bikes are mostly Italian, but I've got an old Audi and BMW, respectively, because they are so well built.
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The Puma is a prime example of this. Ford Probe - a waste of space. Ford Cougar - a bit of a barge. Ford Puma - the most desirable coupe the friendly side of 20K. By getting the interior feel, the outward look, and the driving pleasure right, Ford created something desirable that, unlike other Ford coupes, held its value.
There simply isn't anything snobbish about aspiring to BMW - they're simply more cost-effective and enjoyable places to be.
I'd have reservations about whether to choose an A3 over a Golf as the trim interiors feel as high quality as each other. Having driven a couple of Focuses (Foci???), though, I can accept that the drive is sharper - but so is the depreciation, and the overall finishing of the Focus feels poor compared to the Golf.
After taking an early bath with Fiat our priorities for its replacement were cost after disposal, consumption, and driveability. It doesn't matter how well a car may drive - you will really begrudge driving around in a car that has lost 30% (at least) of it's value in 12 months. No amount of dynamics, air-conditioning, or cup-holders can compensate that sense of hard-cash-loss.
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Badge snobbery is usually found in those who do not own the top marques.
Me I don't really care either way and when looking to chnage my car for an estate considered a Passat but not an A6. I won't pay more for identical cars. In the end took a 530d estate because I wanted a 6cyl rear wheel drive diesel and there wasn't a great choice. Having said that if I had to do the whole thing again I would probably go for a Laguna (and hope that it did not fall to pieces)
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Another angle on this is the reason I buy Citroen after Citroen - I like to drive a car with the chevrons on it. For donkeys years this meant driving something a little bit different to everyone else, and I for one appreciate that. The Xsara is more than a little dull, but HJ's and the Times reviews of the C3 seem to indicate a welcome return to quirkiness.
Having driven and been ferried about in all manor of 'posh' cars, the only time I actually felt that the car was special was in a Jaguar XJ8 - refined and elegant. If anyone thinks you can take a Mondeo, shove a Jaguar badge on it and have true Jag, well, I fear they're sadly mistaken.
But there's enough people willing to believe, and pay for a badge, as witnessed by VW selling rebadged Skodas as Audis for £s more.
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Well said, chap.
Citroen has produced some of the most amazing machinery over the decades since the dawn of motoring - they've really earned a place at the table.
When I drive the Xantia, I enjoy the link - back to the Traction Avant, the DS, the CX, the XM, even the BX (doh!) and the fact that even though hydraulic suspension must cost a packet and isn't something most people would understand or want, they still fit it because its a) different b) better and c) Citroen.
Also - the fact that they start a museum (the Conservatoire) and then won't let people in is the sort of inspired madness that Ford, BMW, Merc, whoever could never aspire to!
Plus - they are without doubt the most realistically priced new cars in the UK - they pile em high and sell them - well, only moderately expensive. (Eg new Xantia 110 Hdi forte in March last year - one of the very last - for £11k, which I have no doubt will see 10 years and 200k miles in this family.
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...but don't forget that Skoda have always been among the forefront of technology - they were one of the best engineered cars in europe.
There are only a few really pioneering marques - Citroen as you point out above, Saab (witness the recent SVC engine - who else would have thought of a hinged cylinder head?!), Skoda, even old BMC (with the combined engine/gearbox running with the same oil - not necessarily a good idea but different).
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Wot about the GS, then? One of my favourite cars and a sad loss when the rust began to bite. Same fate befell our little Visa, which is why I now drive a (galvanised) Audi. Agree with you about the quirkiness, though - what happened to the flat-cornering suspension briefly offered on the Xantia?
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I think the Activa was a solution in search of a problem - none of the Xantias roll much anyway, though they do pitch on and off the brakes. the C5 - and again, who else - but WHO ELSE - would have dared call it that? - sems to have an even more interesting arrangement.
I suppose the BMC gearbox in sump is worth similar kudos, but the thing about Citroen stuff seems to be that they sound daft but are brilliantly enginered, whereas BMC were briliant sounding ideas but... you get the picture.
Neil
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Sorry re 'second post' (more than Consigniaself to the Dustbin of History manages!)
I missed your point about rusty GS - I seem to recall most 70's stuff rusted - but I haven't seen a rusty XM, ZX, Xantia - and the Xantia is galvanised and has an 11yr corrosion warranty...
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I expect you're right, and I do still like Citroens. Trouble is that now the body-rot has been licked, the catalyst wears out!
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And I meant to say, the GS actually lasted quite well (16 years), possibly because it was originally bought in France, although RHD. The engine was amazing - it just kept on keeping on, and it would hold 100mph for miles, despite being fully laden.
I may be over-sensitive about rust, though, having owned both an Alfasud and a Lancia Beta! What bothers me about modern cars is that, as HJ says, it only needs some engine management component or an ABS pump to fail and you may as well scrap the thing.
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