|
Audi A6 1.8T SE 39K spotless ( Father-In-Laws recently deceased ) I was driving the car in busy part of the city and slowing down gradually on a slight gradiant when the pedal faded away to the floor. Tried again with the same response. Fluid check light came on and Beeped. Got out of town and drove into National Tyres. Up on the ramp it was quite clear that the rear N/S caliper Banjo ( flat type ) was leaking fluid big time, check banjo bolt AOK. Dismantled banjo inspected and cleaned all surfaces and rebuilt. Filled and bled system all OK. The car had been serviced by Audi 6 weeks before and had a fluid change. Whilst under the car I also noticed a drip of Coolant from the floor tray and traced this to the bottom of the front timing cover. The Cam belt and water pump had been changed 4 weeks ago due to the cars age 1998. So much for Audi Main dealer servicing then. Audi are collecting the car and fixing the problems free of course.
|
|
Can I make sure I'm reading this right. You had near total brake failure and then you *drove* to a garage?????? Please tell me I'm misreading!
|
find out if the banjo sealing washer was made of aluminium rather than copper and if it is then you want to get them all changed and advise vosa,there was a full page devoted to the same thing on vw"s i believe in last months car mechanics
--
\"a little man in a big world/\"
|
|
Spot on oldman (have we met before :-)), affects all the VAG cars and no recall either:-(
|
|
Carefull inspection reveiled no washers at all on either rear caliper, the flat banjoe sealed directly onto the head of the polt and the machined surface of the caliper, yep I was surprised too. Yep I drove to a garage as braking was still possible as long as it was short and sharp as longer duration pedal pressure would meet with the floor Regards Peter
|
|
Further. I was under the car with the Audi Cheif Mech and he questioned the wasers but also inspected the other caliper and ther was no sign of any washers, aluminium or copper. I did inspect the disassempled banjo and caliper on the leaking side and there where no signes of any washer. If any one knows otherewise then I would be most interested. This is an 04/1998 A6 saloon 1.8T SE. I was also surprized that the pedal would go to the floor with a leak in only one of the duel circuits but Audi informed me that it does due to the ABS braking distribution. Regards Peter
|
|
As far as I'm aware all banjo type fittings should be fitted with 2 crush to seal washers. Bolt head - washer - banjo -washer - calliper. Did the Audi tech say anything different or just brush over your statement?
|
I have not seen these banjo fittings without a washer - even apparently perfectly flat surfaces will have some imperfections that the crush washers overcome. Can you check on the Audi parts system to see if washer is listed?
As others have stated, for some crazy reason VAG decided to use aluminium washers a few years ago. Predictably these corrode away. Really was a mad thing to do - just asking for trouble.
|
|
Oldman is right, there is a problem with these washers highlighted in the April Car Mechanics magazine, page 46. If it looks as if there is no washer fitted then it could be the aluminium "blending in" with the steel bolt. The recommendation is to change all the aluminium ones for copper.
|
|
I was amazed to see no washers or any sign of wahers on the other caliper. The Head Meck probable was not a mech when the car was made in98 and just brushed over it. I have no access to the Audi parts list but will question this with Audi when it goes back in to have the water leak fixed. If anyone can identify what was fitted in 1998 April on this car then let me know. Regards Peter
|
|
The car featured in the magazine is a 1998 VW Passat. It looks like a corrosion problem rather than a failure. Probably more worrying because of this.
|
|
Can I make sure I'm reading this right. You had near total brake failure and then you *drove* to a garage?????? Please tell me I'm misreading!
I think many of us would appreciate your responding to this not unreasonable post.
|
|
Thanks Adam. Regards Peter
|
Ah yes, I see it now. It was subsumed into a further technical description of the issue.
What would you have done if you'd had to perform an emergency stop ?
|
|
Rapid use of the brakes still stopped the car as I explained, but slow longer uses of the pedel caused the paedal to go to the floor as the fluid leaked out of the banjo connection. Don't get paranoid, go get some therapy before you burst something. Any news on the washers or not for this model and year.
|
Don't get paranoid, go get some therapy before you burst something.
Enough please. DD.
|
I find your behaviour incredibly irresponsible. Clearly, at the time of the incident and throughout this thread, your concern for other road users was subordinate to pressing on and addressing the technical issue.
If you had hit a child, knowingly and wilfully pressing on with faulty brakes, you would now be sharing a very small room for 23 hours a day. And that would be entirely appropriate.
|
|
as I explained earlier rapid use of the brakes still stopped the car as I explained, but slow longer uses of the pedel caused the pedal to go to the floor as the fluid leaked out of the banjo connection, I had checked the fluid level which was still above the min when I arrived at the garage but thanks for your concern. Regards Peter
|
|
|
God their are some strange anal people on here, who can make comments based on what they read.
|
You appear to be the only one here ubidenmark who feels like that.The guy saw he had a problem and went straight to a garage to sort it and is now educating himself as to the reason why it happened.
Pretty responsible i'd say.
Get off his back.
|
>>If anyone can identify what was fitted in 1998 April on this car then let me know<<
The parts dept will usually show you the relevant microfiche - so you should see what should be fitted.
Does the service history show that this is the fourth brake fluid change - it should be. Does the service schedule call for the flexible hoses to be changed at any time - and if so, was that done ? I guess there are no technical bulletins covering this - I would guess the magazine article would hightlight any such TB.
I don't understand how the pedal would go to the floor due to the ABS design ? - surely this is a master cylinder issue ?
All rather worrying - are Audi going to change all such banjo unions on your car ?
|
Peter D has explained himself, so can we stop with the accusations of unsafe driving by continuing his journey after discovering the problem.
Please get back to the original question and discussion of the Audi A6 and it's apparant braking problem caused by the banjo fitting.
Further comments that are not on topic will be removed.
DD.
|
8< SNIP 8<
Removed, as per previous message. DD.
Peter's question was regarding why it had happened rather than being lectured and dictated to on the safety aspect of driving with defective brakes. That said, he gave a reply that the braking system still being operative under normal operation, whereas the problem only occurred under prolonged braking operation whilst travelling down a gradient. He also went on to say that the brake fluid level never dropped to minimum levels. Besides all this, like most if not all cars, it has a dual braking system - so if one side should fail (as Peter later confirmed the leak was only on one of the dual
circuits), there will still be brakes; albeit less efficient.
I don't know Peter personally, but I know he's been in the forum quite a long time and therefore from reading quite a lot of his previous postings has shown a responsible attitude when it comes to motoring and safety issues in general and I'm *sure* he wouldn't compromise his or anyone else's safety.
Now let that be the end of the discussion, Re: whether or not safety was or was not compromised. DD
|
Fluid was only being lost when the brakes were under pressure and having stopped twice to check the level after several application of the brakes I knew where the limit was. Where do you get 'alleged serious criminal offence' from.
Anyway the car had three complete fluid changed, no flexies have been changed and no recalls pertaining to the braking system. I have not contacted the Audi dealer again yet but need to collect information beofre the 28th when the car will be collected by Audi to rectify the other problems and returned to the drive. I to was surprised that the dual cct brakes did not stop the pedal fading to the floor but it was no surprise to the Head Mech at the Audi dealership as he was aware that the ABS pump/regulation would bleed fluid across on that model and all A6 to 2001. Not ideal in my book but a fact. Regards Peter
|
|
Audi UK confirm that there are no washers and the flat banjo forms the seal. If a caliper is changed soem dealership apparently fit unlisted copper washers to guarantee a seal. Regards Peter
|
Well it's obvious that I'm miles out of step with the prevailing morality and attitudes of other users of this site. Reminders that we live in a post Christian society where getting away with it is what counts never get any easier to absorb.
As it's me in the minority, it's me who should go. Could you please delete my account from the site ?
Thanks.
|
|
As you have an A6 you should stick to the technical aspect of the thread. It may be you next who hears the beep and a low fluid indication. According to you, you will stop immediately in the middle of the road in a majot city and call for a break down truck. Regards Peter
|
You don't have to explain yourself Peter. Although we're all immoral, we'd have done the same as you.
|
Sorry DD, I know I said I'd keep quiet.
I disagree Adam. Peter did have to explain himself (okay, this is an interweb forum, so of course he didn't, but you know what I mean). Peter hadn't done so when Ud started to question him, and I didn't see the exciting bit by the looks of it, but until his recent post explaining it, I thought Peter had some serious explaining to do.
I also do think he *has* now explained himself, and we should leave it (except if you've got an A6, where going and checking might be a better plan). It sounded very dodgy indeed until a full explaination, and Peter I apologise that I for one was not more aware of your geenral background and experience to take that into account.
It's worth knowing about the effect of ABS on dual circuit as well (dragging it back to motoring somewhat belatedly)
G
|
|
Yes the ABS pump cross feeding the circuits sounds like a good idea until the pedal touches the floor. My Volvo does not do this under these conditions and can slow down bleeding the brakes as the tavel is restricted by the other circuit so pressure bleeding comes into it's own. It is clear that these flat banjo joints should be undersealed or waxoiled to avoid any surface corrosion of the Banjo or the caliper. Regards Peter
|
I also do think he *has* now explained himself, and we should leave it....
Yes please.
And as Peter D has just mentioned, "you should stick to the technical aspect of the thread." (comment not directed at Gordon M)
DD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
do you know peter if the caliper in question had ever been changed.if not then this is a concern that the main dealer must be aware of. if not they should.
|
|
They do know and as I stated above affects all VAG cars with banjo fittings and aluminium washers. There's no recall. The fix is to replace the washers with copper ones.
|
|
There are no washers on this model and year two dealers and Audi UK confirm same. Regards Peter
|
|
No the caliper has not been changed, non of them have. Audi Docklands London say they have never seen this before and will adress it with Audi Technical on Tuesday ( Closed for easter )and call be back. Regards Peter
|
|
|
|
|
we were also told that there are no washers fitted at manufacture.
|
I have never seen a banjo fitting without washers - sounds like a very dodgy design!
On the general issue of brake pedal travel (not attacking original poster) everyone should be aware that if pedal travel is very long (down to floor) then it is best to try to stop the car where it is an get AA/RAC etc out to it. Unless you know the cause, then the next time you press the pedal there may not be any brakes at all. For example, I have seen cases of master cyl failure on Vauxhalls a few years back which led to BOTH circuits failing at the same time. Similarly there are ABS sytems (e.g. WABCO on Range Rover) where a system failure (ABS light on) leads to NO rear brakes and only 50% braking on the front. On a downhill section of road with a trailer on the back that is not enough to stop the vehicle!!
|
>>I have never seen a banjo fitting without washers - sounds like a very dodgy design!
I quite agree - although I'm not a particular fan of banjo fittings at all. I don't like the way that there are four interfaces in the joint, and the failure of any one of them can cause a serious leak.
Part of the philosophy of a washerless design I agree with is the increase in joint stiffness (and hence more consistent joint pre-load) you get by deleting the soft washer.
Number_Cruncher
|
a banjo joint is a good joint.............................but no copper washer?........no way..........do audi now not use head gaskets?????
--
\"a little man in a big world/\"
|
|
|
|
same car A6 1998 2.8 Quattro, brake fluid pouring out of both sides where the flat banjo bolts onto the underside of the rear caliper. As far as I can tell simultaneously both sides, salt? corrosion? It is mid January. I'll try rebuilding with copper washers. I never had this trouble with a Morris Minor!
snip 8< no need for insults. Suggest you find another forum if you cannot be polite to members here
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 21/01/2010 at 19:01
|
|
The Banjo for a period had a raised annular ring concentric to the hole. This formed the seal but as discussed failed in time. I have repaired several of these recently. VW and some Audi stockists supply the copper washer but if you carefully clean all services with 1200 wet and dry until there is a clear clean contact area and use sump copper sealing washers from ECP part no 333 11 0051 from memory 12.5mm ID and 16mm, 17mm tops OD and clean them up you will achieve a seal at 20/25Nm and then torque to 40Nm as per the spec. Over sized washers do not deform sufficiently to ensure a safe seal. coat exposed surfaced with sealer or waxoyle and the job is done. Audi should face up to this mistake. Regards Peter
Edited by Peter D on 21/01/2010 at 19:33
|
|
|
|
